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markl32
markl32
11 years ago

I believe that circumstances will push Permaculture into the mainstream in the next 5 – 7 years. This will force the “you need to look just like me to practice REAL permaculture” in to obscurity as many Entrepreneurial designers open up shop. Good old market forces will prevail.

My real fear is that the movement will be cooped or regulated into oblivion by big agra. Especially after seeing what became of “organic”.

Clayfarmer
Clayfarmer
11 years ago
Reply to  markl32

Permaculture is by its very nature a distributed system. It’d be much more difficult to co-op or regulate millions of backyard systems than it would the big ag centralized systems. They haven’t found a way to regulate (most) backyard vegetable gardens yet, so hopefully the same will be true with permaculture.

Bill Schnieders
Bill Schnieders
11 years ago

GREAT article Jack! You articulated perfectly what I’ve felt for a long time. Well said, well written & I couldn’t agree with you more.

RationalHusker
RationalHusker
11 years ago

Couldn’t agree more, especially with the “agenda” that is often behind the scenes.

deanna
deanna
11 years ago

AMEN! I second this.. Thank you for such a well written synopsis.

Preppingmom
11 years ago

Thanks for the time you spent to articulate your thoughts on permaculture. This is one of the best articles you have written. I have wanted to design our 2 1/2 acres since the late 1980s when I first heard of permaculture. Alas, all this time later it is still a hodge podge. I’m not interested in a certificate, nor am I into dancing or chanting. I just want a sound design on my property – without spending a fortune! I’m hoping the costs to do this will be within my reach once the supply side meets the demand! Again, thanks Jack for articulating the thoughts of many of us!

Cal
Cal
11 years ago
Reply to  Preppingmom

“Dancing and chanting” LOL, I’ve seen my share of these that follow permaculture. They love to beat on drums and talk about mother earth and climate change. If they spent just as much time on practical aspects of permaculture they would be much more effective in marketing it.

Theresa
11 years ago

EXACTLY! I don’t want to learn to make ju-ju and pretend to be the local shaman. I want to start a business based on permaculture principles, and if it doesn’t work out, at least be able to feed my family. The nearest in-person permaculture course to me is 552 kilometers away in the bush and the tuition alone costs more than double Geoff Lawton’s course. It is 120 hours spread out over 6 months on weekends, because the instructors do not think 72 is adequate. Apparently, they know better than the founders. How is all that commuting kind to the planet? I really do not want to camp out in the bush in the bitter Canadian winter, and I don’t see what it has to do with permaculture. Blackfly season in Ontario is horrific — even aboriginals who have lived in the woods since birth have difficulty with it. We have a well-known song about it: http://www.nfb.ca/film/blackfly/. This is why permaculture hasn’t taken hold in Canada as it should. The present instructors in Ontario should remember, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

Bonnieblue2A
Bonnieblue2A
11 years ago

Wonderful blog article Jack. Quite possibly your best. Thank you for addressing so many of my concerns about choosing this road less taken and greatly mitigating them in the process.

Joe Moraca
Joe Moraca
11 years ago

Jack, thanks for bringing the wonderful world of permaculture to me and many others. I wish I was aware of Bill Mollinson and permaculture 20 years ago but getting started “now” is the best I can do.

I really enjoyed the Global Gardener series. Thanks for pointing out those resources.

Badger
11 years ago

-golf clap-

“Proper” politics has nothing to do with effective, pragmatic strategies and learning. I’m glad you understand this Jack, sadly, many more do not.

John Kitsteiner
11 years ago

Well said, Jack. Permaculture is a design science, and science is non-political. It just is. People view it with the glasses they are wearing, but the core truths are the same. Thanks for writing this article. I’m sure it will tick some people off, but I see that as a good thing. If we really want to make a difference, then we need to bring Permaculture to the mainstream, and being a neo-hippy and singing around a campfire is not going to do it. Showing how Permaculture design can change lives and change communities… that is what is going to change the world.

The Morgan Hill Homesteading Project
The Morgan Hill Homesteading Project
11 years ago

One of the better blog posts I have seen in a while. I need to practice not bringing up politics as often. Great post Jack.

Scott
Scott
11 years ago

Jack, have you considered changing the name of the podcast to the “Permaculture Podcast”?

KevinWV
KevinWV
11 years ago
Reply to  Scott

Troll

Christopher de Vidal
Christopher de Vidal
11 years ago
Reply to  KevinWV

And even if he’s not a troll, he’s absolutely short-sighted. Pculture is very helpful for long-term survival. I’d hate to be his neighbor when his stored food, fertilizer and pesticide runs out.

Moonvalleyprepper
Moonvalleyprepper
11 years ago

Great article Jake!

Moonvalleyprepper
Moonvalleyprepper
11 years ago

Jack* …words are hard… 😉

R little farm
R little farm
11 years ago

Great post Jack! All great suggestions for finding a PDC teacher. But what suggestions can you give for those of us that can’t afford to take a PDC course. For us we are a family of 6 with 4 young kids. We live in the suburbs and are doing what we can with all the free info we can get our hands on. I’d love to take a hands on PDC someday, but at the current time we have no plans to become certified designers. We simply want the knowledge for our own private use.

Leos.mike
Leos.mike
11 years ago
Reply to  R little farm

When you’ve exhausted that, the PRI Au store has an audio PDC by Bill from 1983 which I believe is under $100, there’s the DVD set for $500 with both Geoff and Bill (which I agree with Jack, it is excellent) and there’s the actual Permaculture designer’s manual which I don’t recommend you read cover to cover but is a HUGE resource.

After immersing yourself in the free information, grabbing one of the recorded PDC’s and being able to cross reference anything you have questions about in the PDM you’re pretty much there except for the certificate. You can understand the system without the certificate and you can use it in your own life as long as you understand.

Besides, Jack and the TSP community are here to help with questions 🙂

Shannon
Shannon
11 years ago
Reply to  R little farm

Look up Permaculture guilds in your area, not sure where you’re from but most large cities have them, I was a member of the Houston guild for years and that was over 10 years ago.

Good Luck!
Shannon

Hal Hanevik
Hal Hanevik
11 years ago
Reply to  R little farm

you can start here… https://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/hs-432/id450522131 a free course on Pculture… and as Jack stated, there are oodles of stuff on the net. You just need to DO and not be paralyzed by indecision and inaction.

Jesse Hill
Jesse Hill
11 years ago

Permaculture is a new thing for me, I only discovered it after discovering the Podcast. Most of my exposure to it is due to Jack Spirko.

That being said, I want to thank him for exposing a lot of the potential pitfalls that come along with seeking knowledge along the Permaculture path. He is exactly right about keeping politics out of the design process. I am an architect (by education) and I can assure you that the only thing that keeps a building from falling on your head is physics. It doesn’t matter which party or church you belong to, the laws of physics don’t care. Permaculture Design is no different, it just has a different set of “laws”.

Thanks again Jack, I look forward to sharing Geoff’s new online PDC experience with you and all the others, and hopefully many more in the future.

Ben Falk
Ben Falk
11 years ago

This is a good contribution to the field. I would add that:
-if a course is not giving you an opportunity to observe, assess and solve for patterns in systems, than it is not a “real” PDC.
-skills application is a bonus, but not a core part of a PDC. We are offering it simply for the need.
-the ability experience a permaculture site: an actual real place in development where solving for pattern is actualized, is hard to overstate in importance. An online course simply can’t offer that aspect.

Paul
Paul
11 years ago

Great article. What you’re talking about is Liberty – a lost concept in this country. I recently happened upon Geoff Lawton’s videos. I went out in my yard and saw the potential possibilities…and then got to work on it. I also recognized that I was accidentally doing a lot of it already. That’s called common sense.

Christopher de Vidal
Christopher de Vidal
11 years ago

Nail on the head, Jack. If you were starting over, what resources would you watch/read to get you as quickly as possible to where you are today? And are there cheaper alternatives to those very resources which perhaps would be slower but would save hundreds? Like, this book instead of that DVD.

Christopher de Vidal
Christopher de Vidal
11 years ago

Thanks. Can you / have you recommended some “real” PDCs? I see you mentioned Barking Frogs and Midwest Permaculture; Any others?

Christopher de Vidal
Christopher de Vidal
11 years ago

Another question: Isn’t “Permaculture One” + “PC Two” the same as the “Designer’s Manual”? I already have the DM, just wondering if I need to drop another $75 for what I already have.

Christopher de Vidal
Christopher de Vidal
11 years ago

Where do you think I got the cost of 75 bucks? 🙂 Prices have risen a little in five years…

frank
frank
11 years ago

To think that science is not political is at best naieve. If focus on results and free market is the way to go, than ask yourself how we got into these troubles in the first place. If you think you can keep driving the gas-guzzling cars but your doing your bit with an edible garden, than you don’t get the system-thinking of permaculture. This not about PDC, everything is linked. It’s transferring from one system – that is destructive – to another – that is sustainable. You can not pick and choose what is acceptable for you. You have to go for the whole system, as you abandon the whole of a defunct one.

goatboy825
goatboy825
11 years ago

Jack has great insight. I am an architect. I am enrolled to take Geoff’s PDC on-line. All for the very reasons Jack so eloquently presented. When I started, I din’t even think about the full ramifications (designers tend to act first, then rationalize) of why I wanted a ‘food forest plant list’. As I went through the introduction to Geoff’s PDC I discovered I been lead to a teacher who truly speaks of design and the problem solving skill set. His methods are very much like those of my professors years ago in architecture school: thought provoking, engaging, exploratory and evidence based. I don’t know if I will every use the PDC certificate (assuming I can make it that far) any more than I have with my architectural licenses, but I want to learn the ‘permaculture’ skill set, not just implement a recommended plant list.

Christopher de Vidal
Christopher de Vidal
11 years ago

Listen up and learn, Democrats: If you want to convince more to take care of the earth, SHOW Permaculture. Don’t just talk about it, SHOW working gardens. This former Republican knows that seeing Permaculture lets the cat out of the bag. There ain’t no going back after eyes are opened ^_^

goatboy825
goatboy825
11 years ago

Maybe I’ll spend more time proofreading?

Erica W
11 years ago

I appreciate this perspective.
I might even take it a step further and say, the pattern-observations and design science are key and even doing backyard ‘food forestry’ is not obligatory. (Of course healthy soils, clean water supplies, and good food are critical human quality-of-life issues, and I hope many more people do jump on the productive horticulture bandwagong.)
I’ve used permaculture design principles to re-organize an office, and they teach some remarkably similar principles for manufacturing (TMP e.g. ‘kaizen’) assembly work. We were making a transition to carrols instead of an assembly line, something that is pretty similar to ‘keyhole’ garden beds if you think about it.
Learning to observe, think for yourself, and improve the efficiency of your surroundings – using natural laws, not arbitrary conventions that may or may not favor your actual goals – is valuable anywhere.

Martin
Martin
11 years ago

Having just discovered permaculture I am very glad I found this article. It is nice to have this information for the future.

Great article, thank you.

Regards, Martin.

Michael Burns
11 years ago

Thanks for writing this. One of greatest concerns about teaching is that students will leave the course with out being skilled and confident to design and implement. The less the course focuses on the design process and ecological principles, the more they become too “wu-wu” as Bill Mollison described it, and the students are not really equiped to design and meet human needs as permaculture’s early writer’s and practioners intended. Prospective students should seek a course with at least a few teachers with years of practical experience.

Michael Burns
http://FingerLakesPermaculture.org

Dave Jackson
11 years ago

I agree with most of what you say and certainly think it a very important contribution to permaculture.

You list the questions you would want good answers to before choosing a permaculture design course. Very few people will be in a position to ask those questions before choosing a course. Elsewhere where this article is being discussed I have noted people who are well on with their diploma who had to look up what a sill is.

I would question whether the design course should enable one to go anywhere in the world and produce complete permaculture designs. Perhaps the Diploma course that requires the PDC to start it here in UK should.

When I do my design course I want to learn more about things I can apply in the UK climate. If I later go to a different part of the world later the onus is then on me to learn about the local conditions and what they imply before using the ethics and principles in any designs I produce.

As to politics, wouldn’t it be great to have a political party whose policies all followed the permaculture ethics and design principles?

Theresa
11 years ago

The only political statement permaculture needs to make is the kind of protest guerilla gardener Ron Finley made about farming vacant strips of land in South Central Los Angeles. See his TED talk here: http://www.ted.com/talks/ron_finley_a_guerilla_gardener_in_south_central_la.html?utm_content=awesm-publisher&awesm=on.ted.com_Finley&utm_medium=on.ted.com-static&utm_campaign=&utm_source=google.com

Dave Jackson
11 years ago

Permaculture may be apolitical but the scientific principles of permaculture could be applied to politics with great effect. Can you imagine how different the world would be if politicians followed the permaculture ethics?

vonnieRae
11 years ago

Thank you so much for the great advice and info. I am new to permaculture the lable. But living a lot of my life on remote ranches, I’ve seen the remains of a sustainable life style. Some still in use. I will say a lot of ranchers have gotten a bad rap. Most generational homesteaders I knew lived in harmony with nature, they had to take care of the land and neighbors to continue to servive sustainably. One of my elderly neighbors and closest at three miles away. Said, “During the great depression years, they were not affected at all. Its the big industry cattle raisers that have raped the land, and others who were ignorant Those who are in it strictly for money and themselves, and government agencies who are supposed to be protecting the land and wildlife, out of their ignorance as well. Unfortunately government always has a political agenda no matter who or what they hurt or destroy in the way of their agenda. And I’m not talking about the government of the people, that doesn’t exist anymore. Because our constitution is of no effect on an ungodly people, according to our founding fathers. Permaculture is needed as much now as it was in the beginning. It’s also the pathway of health. I want to be able to help as many as I can. Thank you for giving to the Lord.