Episode-1208- Important Updates from Rob Gray at Mulligan Mint
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Today I am joined by my good friend Mr. Rob Gray of AOCS and Mulligan Mint. Today our discussion revolves around the future of TSP Silver Medallions and we have some very exciting news about that.
As I said last week there would be news coming out about Mulligan Mint that some parties would spin as extremely negative. Said news is that Mulligan has filed Chapter 11 reorganizational bankruptcy protection.
This doesn’t mean they are out of business, this means they have set up protections under Federal Court so that they can continue operations and put a halt on some very unreasonable legal actions. This move actually will allow for additional capital into the business along with some other advantages Rob will tell you about today.
The key take aways are…
- Mulligan Mint is still “in business” and is still filling orders
- You can order with a credit card and get the consumer protections that go with that if you want to
- Mulligan Mint is currently shipping orders right now, every customer is being taken care of
- Mulligan is now in a much stronger position then they have been in for some time
- There will be counter claim actions soon, when you hear why it will shock you
- Rob has stood though this battle and hasn’t quit fighting and is ready for what comes next
- I will continue to fight this battle with my friend and hope many of you will as well
Special Notice – I do want to make one point public here that I didn’t make on the air. I have been accused by some people as “doing this for the money” and worse doing so “at the expense of my community”. Such slander is baseless in the face of the honor I have shown but let me just state this fact.
In August, I told my friend Rob, to “Not to worry about any commissions due to me at that time or any further commissions due to me until such time as he was able to close the current matters. Further that if he were to lose this fight to insure that anyone from TSP that was owed anything from the mint was ahead of me in line at the end of the road, should that day come.”
I will simply say, those of you who speak against my honor can be forgiven, because you clearly know not of what you speak.
Any trolling or hateful comments by those that wish to simply lie and slander here shall be deleted. That said any reasonable questions this interview created will be answered by Rob below as I have time to moderate them and as he has time to answer.
Resources for today’s show…
- The Year 1208
- Join Our Forum
- Members Support Brigade
- Join Our Forum
- Walking To Freedom
- TSP Mint
- Video Rob Mentioned Telling His Side of the SBSS Story
Remember to comment, chime in and tell us your thoughts, this podcast is one man’s opinion, not a lecture or sermon. Also please enter our listener appreciation contest and help spread the word about our show. Also remember you can call in your questions and comments to 866-65-THINK (866-658-4465) and you might hear yourself on the air.
Received a personal call from Mulligan Mint today confirming that my order has been delayed a bit (not surprising). Quite content with the customer service I’ve gotten. (I even sent them an email just the other day asking about my order and received a quick response).
Although I miss the days (last year) when Rob’s brother (I’m guessing its his brother) would call me personally… =)
Dutch king: say goodbye to welfare state
AMSTERDAM (AP) – King Willem-Alexander delivered a message to the Dutch people from the government Tuesday in a nationally televised address: the welfare state of the 20th century is gone.
In its place a “participation society” is emerging, in which people must take responsibility for their own social and financial safety nets, with less help from the national government.
I’ve got a large order in the shopping cart right now. I really want to see Rob come out on top.
I also got a call today to give me an update on my order status. Good to see customer service continuing!
I also received a call. They have been a little slow, I assume due to being overwhelmed, but I have always gotten my order.
The only strange thing is I was called on my work cell phone. I don’t even know the number. I only use it for work and my desk forwards to it. I checked my account and they have a different #. I realized after they hung up so I sent an email to ask how they got the number, I am perplexed. I am awaiting a reply.
I just think it’s strange.
I’ve never had a problem with an order. They have been delayed, but delays were acknowledged by MM. That’s the price you pay for doing business with people with faces rather than Amazon.
Jack & Rob, I only damn you for continuing to release products for which I can’t resist giving you federal reserve notes. Isn’t that theft? 🙂
Keep it up and good luck with the coming battles,
Please keep us updated on the Reddit iAMA!
I do have a couple questions if they can be addressed publicly. In the bankruptcy filling a number of debts to individual investors and to Lakota (I’m assuming these are the bank investments) were listed. Are those planned to be covered? Other question is the last round of writs were mostly returned listing the properties as not being within the jurisdiction. Is MM doing business elsewhere now?
Otherwise I second AngusBangus. Darn you to heck for releasing too many good products… 😉
1) In the filing, I was required to list ALL creditors, not just the ones that I don’t like or the ones with disputed amounts. The unfortunate consequence is that ALL pre-petition accounts are frozen; I am restricted by law regarding payment, regardless of ability or desire.
2) Filing Chapter 11 wasn’t done with the desire to reduce or eliminate debt. At this point, our team is working on the exit strategy, and when I know what it is, I’ll share it here.
3) Mulligan Mint is only doing business at our single location in Farmer’s Branch, Texas. I haven’t read the writ returns, but I imagine it’s referring to the fact that most of the property listed on the writ of attachment request doesn’t belong to me.
MetaForge, I don’t know who pissed in your Wheaties this morning, but really, take a deep breath. I’ll just respond to this one since it was my question being addressed. Given that I know a thing or two about what chapter 11 bankruptcy is (BTW it is a structured repayment plan, not a debt dissolution – that would be chapter 7), that was a perfectly strait forward answer. Rob knows that I have been following the details of this as it went through court and probably assumed I didn’t need the term chapter 11 or the background details of the writs explained to me. And if it isn’t your cup of tea, there is a next button on your player. Same button I use when I’m bored of a topic, but when I want to save time, I don’t go ranting across 13 comment posts… 😉
Good, glad you had your Wheaties this morning. Gobble up those GMOs. And I’m glad you & Rob have had your cum-ba-yah, or you’re a lawyer and you understand all this shit, however, you will, in your infinite intelligence, understand that this is a PUBLIC forum, and we will not all either be privy to: A) Your private correspondence. or B) Your expert understanding. Huh.. thought you would have learned that in law school about dealing with an asshole public – or I guess maybe they just taught that we’d all be too busy chomping on our Lucky Charms to question your Wheaties?
Really though, if you don’t plan on repaying your debts, why “restructure” them? Show me that justification. Show me where all the creditors are going to be repaid. Jack’s note said something about “invalid credit requests” – prove that. Truth is this guy went bankrupt just shy of 7 years ago, and now he’s doing it again. There ought to be a federal court chapter 11 word for that: NO.
And still… where’s the asset disclosure? When my wife’s ex went bust, I got to see that his goldfish were worth 10c each. Where’s Rob’s asset disclosure? And if you’re thinking I’m not neutral, why didn’t Chris post that? He posted the liabilities…. he surely got a statement of assets too?
Peace be with you brother. If I could sit down, buy you a drink and give you a hug I would, but this is going nowhere.
Yeah, and I go ranting across comments BECAUSE I FUCKING CARE. So fuck you. If that’s the worst you got, insult me because I care? You are a dumbass.
I’m happy to agree to disagree. So be it. Please don’t insult me for caring. That’s BS and that’s being a coward.
Nobody insulted you. I just suggested that you sound a bit worked up, and that you might need a drink, and hug. In the mean time I don’t see any civil discourse happening so seriously peace be with you brother.
I was fine, I was not INSULTED … UNTIL … you thought I needed a hug & drink…. up until that point were were having an adult conversation. I dunno what your hug & drink shit is, but leave me out of it. You remind me of a liberal. Don’t hug me, and don’t intoxicate me. I think for myself, thank you.
Good night buddy. Try not to let the desert sun get to you.
So in all of this assclown sideshow, we’ve dodged the question – asset filing? When & where?
Chip you are now banned from posting until you stop acting like an asshole, I am highly tempted to ban you from the entire site. As for asset disclosure, it ONLY APPLIES to Mulligan Mint because the MINT has declared chapter 11, not Rob personally. If you want to know what is filed, it is always public record look it up. When you want to behave like an adult let me know I will remove the posting ban. Come back under a different name and I will ban you site wide and keep removing everything you post via a proxy.
You are not entitled to DEMAND anything of anyone in a legal proceeding. If you use your brain you would know all filings are public. So go read it and let the courts worry about what is and isn’t required, they are experts in the matter now are they not.
I do not care about you. I’m trying to influence Jack and Jack’s brain-aware audience, of which you clearly are not one.
When you threaten the physical location of my home, I will turn that over to the FBI, because it is a legitimate threat of force against my property. That has now been done, mister deeprootshomesteading.com.
Do I want to use government force ever? No. If force is threatened against my family and force is available? Yes.
Have fun with that.
Alright so you’re a HostGator… good job!
Domain Name: DEEPROOTSHOMESTEADING.COM
Registrar: ENOM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.enom.com
Referral URL: http://www.enom.com
Name Server: NS3037.HOSTGATOR.COM
You want to go back & forth on personal shit? I’m only starting to dig, and frankly, I don’t give a shit.
In other words, in terms of answering your questions, blah blah blah blah…. blah da blah blah blah. (aka: a whole lot of no answer)
Are you going to post your asset disclosure as well?
Can someone make a “I support Mulligan Mint” t-shirt?
There are many liberty minded people that would purchase them just to help that couldn’t afford to buy silver.
Honestly, we tried messing around with a variety of swag, but ended up mismanaging it pretty well. We’re sticking to silver & copper for a while until we work out the kinks. In the meantime, I suggest posting objective opinions on various forums or liking/commenting/sharing stuff we post on our Facebook pages. That will help us a bunch!
There is a web shop that started with a Z. I can’t remember the name but it was the shop that the former TSP gear shop was using for some stuff. Basically you set up an account, submit art work, and customers can visit your page and order shirt, sweaters, hats, mugs etc with your artwork on it. They handle all the inventory and shipping, you just get a cut of the profit. Sounds like a perfect match for a bonus stream of income.
That would be zazzle.com
I’d be interested in “I support TSP staying out of bullshit girly statist feuds” t-shirts. 🙂
In fact, I think we need a new insect…
If the ant prepares, and the grasshopper pisses away… what would the non-productive girlish feud loving insect be?
I think you’re going to have to look to something a little more warm blooded (maybe a bird?) for a ‘drama loving’ mascot. 🙂
Is AOCS/MM moving away from face value on the product? I’ve noticed that some of the current ones do not have it listed. I’m thinking of your Coin of the Realm project and trying to get it into ticket/token based events. Or are you just doing what the party commissioning the medallion wants? There might not be room on the sentinel paraDIMES but I would think it would go on the “Barter is Better” ones.
@Jerry I can say from my end on this, I specifically moved TSP coins off the AOCS face value thing. It caused a lot of confusion, people didn’t seem to like it and it gave me more space to be creative with design concepts. The Sentinel could never have become what it was with the space given over to the denomination.
I personally think sticking to all AOCS 1 oz medallions are a “50” for AOCS barter is good enough. Basically you guys are my market and my market told me what they wanted and I listened.
The face value discussion has been debated since day 1. Certainly, it would have done better if we focused on community currency development earlier on in our career. Problem was that we knew tenth ounce silver was a required component of a local currency succeeding, and the price point didn’t make sense until we manufactured it in-house. So, now we can move forward much more well-equipped on local currencies with paraDIMES.
The core idea of face value is compatibility and interchangeability. Since we have so many “AOCS APPROVED” coins in circulation, some with and some without face values, we creating a new sub-standard specifically for community currencies called OCX – or OpenCurrency Exchange, and you can learn more about it @ http://www.opencurrencyx.com – it’s not fully developed or ready for prime-time, but it’s kinda a re-do of the face value concept. Would love your feedback.
I fully understand you making designs you feel would sell to your target audience, if that means dropping the AOCS face value that is your call. The fact that they have sold the way the do shows you were right in your assessment of your target market.
My personal interest is more in the local currency side than buying silver so I have been following the AOCS side of your business more than MM. However I understand without something like MM to make the fractional silver you really will not be able to get any traction of it as a barter currency. When you are able to give some attention to other things I would like to talk to you about approaching some of the festivals here in Michigan to move to AOCS silver rather than tickets. I’m working on the lining up the contacts to see if something can be done next year
Jack, I think this was a good call. The arbitrary face value is the only issue I’ve ever had with AOCS. The appropriate face value is its weight; end of discussion. The face value idea is needlessly convoluted and creates layer of obfuscation.
I agree, as much as I liked the AOCS face value idea at first, now it just seems ridiculous. There are clearly AOCS medalions that are the same 1oz silver, but one is more valuable than another for numismatic/artistic value. Dump the face value is my vote.
I know this sounds like a strange request, but I was wondering…. Could you produce some sort of a Tooth Fairy themed copper round? My kids just love getting the oz of copper for their teeth, but it’s hard to find one that fits the niche. I have been using the Lakota round… just and idea.
Maybe it would be a good niche market to get into??
Great idea, Although my kids are too young to be loosing teeth now, id buy 30-50 of them right now and store for when the time is right!
Actually, we’ve had A LOT of requests for kid-themed coins. I can say that a new tenth ounce silver piece is in the works for kids. When you think about it, it’s the kids that will really pay the price for the debt being created right now.
Certainly a roll of kids paraDIMES would also make great rewards for chores, good behavior etc etc…but when kids get the same silver from mom or dad as they get from the fairy…they start asking tough questions.
Great idea to use paradimes as allowance. My seven year old son would totally love that!
The first paradimes I ordered were for exactly that. My kid requested the 2nd amendment round for the ounce he bought himself, so I’m good with what you have. But a tooth fairy 1/10th would be sweet.
Perhaps a group of interested parents could create a design and commission dies (not that you’re all hot and bothered over new partnerships right now…)?
Believe me, you can convince a kid that if they ask the tooth fairy for silver that’s what she’ll bring. But a round with a tooth on it would seal the deal. /deviousparent
My wife’s ex-husband took to leaving a $5 FRN for a tooth – JFC talk about inflation… I think back in the day, I got a half-dollar coin for a tooth! Of course the guy is a dumbshit sheep… lol. But anyway, yeah the idea of leaving a 1oz copper is great, except that the kiddo will want to put it into their piggy bank of legal tender coins & maybe buy something with it, so we need a strategy for trade in for “legal tender” at that point.
If I were a rich man, I’d buy all of that other guys coins from individuals but not from him. Then I’d bring them to you to melt them down and remake coins and bars with my own design on them.
Just want to say that I was notified in a phone call with Kim that my order shipped yesterday. I have talked to Kim and Jennifer a few times regarding my order and they have always been up front with me regarding it. Never once did I feel they were anything but truthful. As I told Jennifer yesterday I will use them in the future.
Jack keeps his word and so do the folks at MM!
If what you are saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, it sounds like great improvement in customer service, probably in no small part due to Jack kicking some ass. I was an early customer and I got absolute S-H-I-T for customer service & months of waiting. YMMV. I won’t be buying again, but I’m happy you’re happy.
Just had a weird experience…I was listening to Rob on the podcast with my phone and i get a call from Jennifer at MM checking in on my order, letting me know they would be shipping by the end of the week. Quality Service! Keep up the good work Rob!
Same thing happened to me this afternoon! Physically had to turn down the volume on the speakers to take the call. Funny how that works…
Again, glad they are taking care of you guys. I was shat on back at the beginning of the year. YMMV DYODD.
Hi Rob – Hoping that you can do a Reddit IAMA. Lots of us at /r/silverbugs have been watching this and it would be nice to have some things cleared up. I really don’t know what is going on but it’s nice to to hear your side of the story and it has swayed my opinion. Whatever – I’m not really concerned with this or that. I just like to own some cool pieces of silver and hope that you can continue to provide. And if people don’t want the risk that all this BS has created? Do what I do and purchase MM silver from a 3rd party retailer. In fact, have you considered focusing on delivering to retailers and ceasing your direct BtoC operations? Seems to me you could mitigate most of this risk that you speak about. Besides your silver stands for itself and as long I get what I pay for, the rest is just a bunch of noise.
Unfortunately, when a new retailer comes on board, it only takes about 3-5 days before they get the standard round of half-dozen “stop selling Mulligan Mint product or we’ll stop buying from you” phone calls. I know who the people are that are making the calls, but that doesn’t really make a difference to the retailer. They get scared away pretty quick and respond with “it would just be best for our reputation to stay out of it”. So, I’m going to sell to people that want my product and appreciate the effort that goes into producing it. Is it frustrating? Sure. Am I going to beg? No.
And yes, I’m working with /r/silverbugs now to schedule an event. Not sure yet how it works, but i’ll be there.
I’ll make sure we can figure it out sir, I promise.
I can’t wait. When this happens make sure to let us know about it! I’d love for Jack to do an IAMA AMA as well.
Sorry to hear that. If it’s any consolation, my last call to my vendor was asking when more Sententials were coming in and if they would be carrying paradimes. Hopefully my voice asking to put money in their pocket help to quiet the haters.
As soon as I heard about the issue with C.D. I turned around that very day and ordered two sentinel 300 coins from Mulligan Mint. I received them 4 days later. That is very awesome…
Love my paradimes!
Sorry this was in response to JoeO’s link.
I deleted that comment, and am only replying to you as a courtesy. I am not tolerating the Duane Ditto Heads here, period. He has run his mouth for months and deleted every single post that asked any reasonable question that challenged him. Please do not engage with any of the Duane Ditto Heads if they appear further, don’t worry I will delete them. Everyone is aware of “the other side of the story”, let them use their own crumbling platform for their purposes, they do not get to use mine.
Anyone can ask Rob anything they want to that is reasonable but as to “the partner” he has done enough damage and caused me to waste enough time. I am done. I offered him a great deal to take a polygraph test, he declined, hence what he says is no longer relevant to me.
Ohhh wow. If Rob wants to avoid trolling he damn sure shouldn’t go anywhere near a Reddit AMA.
That is why I think he should do all of this here as he has been doing.
Isn’t this, at it’s essence, dealing with trolls? Rob and “the other guy” each have thier own comfy, safe and controlled platform to voice your side of the story. I’d like both sides to address some questions that are otherwise easily deleted by a forum’s operators. Based on how Rob has handled this so far and the fact that he says he has nothing to hide, how could Reddit hurt? Besides a certain level or troll exposure is something that anyone else has been able to deal with…..
Ha. If you think you’re going to get Rob Gray and C.D. in the same internet room together and have it not dissolve into a shitstorm of trolling and sniping you’re woefully naive. And that’s not even saying the two principals would be doing it, more like their drama is just prime trollbait.
Also, has C.D. done an AMA? Or is he considering it?
I’m not suggesting that they both do the same iama, or any type of confrontation between the two what-so-ever.. What I am suggesting is a forum where hard questions cannot easily be deleted by a forum admin. Look, DC deletes post from hid blog/yt channel all the time and Jack clearly states that he does the same on this site.
What I’d like to see is an open and un-moderated forum. And if one can’t deal with trolls then one shouldn’t bother even leaving their house EVER.
Eh. So far the only things getting deleted here are questions from trolls and blatant C.D. supporters. If you’re suspecting Jack of deleting hard but fair questions I think maybe you don’t really know how Jack’s handled this whole thing. I’ve been watching him take tough and sometimes not even very fair questions on here and youtube whenever he talks about the MM situation.
I have no influence over the situation, I’m just posting my opinion, but I really don’t get why it’s so important that Rob submit to an ‘un-moderated forum’ as you phrased it. If someone can’t phrase a question in a way that would get it past Jack’s relatively mild moderation practices then maybe they don’t deserve to have the question answered.
EXACTLY, ask any fair question and it stands. What I delete is nonsense, not fair questions.
@xc2, it should be noted I made CD the following offer and he declined.
1. Come to Dallas and I will pay for a hotel room for two nights a nice ass 5 star place.
2. Pick a polygraph company and I will pay for the exams, that I and he would both answer 30 preappoved questions about the incidents in question.
3. I would publish the results no matter what they said about ME or him.
4. I would pay his airfare as well.
5. If he passed the exam I would give him 100 ounces of silver from my personal stash, that he could come to my home and pick what he wanted from what I own.
6. If he passed I would issue him a formal apology, that the 100 ounces wasn’t a bet that he would owe me nothing either way but if he were vindicated I would consider the silver a man to man restitution for doubting him publicly.
He declined. We then made an agreement that I would not go out and do something like a youtube video and make this challenge widely known and he would leave my name the F out of his BS going forward. So far he has so I have not. But I will do it in a blog comment because it is a very telling point is it not? Your comments seem to indicate that I would remove an actual relevant question for Rob, I would not.
What I remove is crap like, links to Chris’ five mile long blog post which everyone that wishes to see has seen or stupid crap like, “Mulligan Mint is shut down quit denying it” and BS like that.
The problem is that we don’t really have anything to debate. The questions we would pose to each other are really basic, and the substance isn’t in which answer is better, but instead with who is telling the truth.
My point is why are we dealing with this? Personally, I think both RG & CD are morally & ethically dubious. And now today we spend a whole episode just covering Rob’s financial & legal woes? WTF… this is so below the normal good content of TSP. We are wasting time on this stupid feud between two prima donnas. Bad choice. Let’s get back to quality TSP programming, and let’s let the smart listener think for themselves & decide where to buy their silver for themselves.
This isn’t a regular TSP episode it seems… but it is something that many of us are very glad he did. I honestly do not mean this to be snarky or whatever, but if it doesn’t affect or interest you, then don’t waste your time listening or posting. But it really does affect many of the tsp audience, including me. Many of us have ordered from MM, & not just TSP rounds. Jack has always let us know what was bs, because he would receive tons of emails from people like me who were scared after certain CD posts. But I have received my all of my orders. [one at post office as we speak]. Jack is involved with MM, promotes their products, and is friends with RG. So some people this is irrelevant, to others this was an episode I played immediately. I hope i explained ok why some people just may ntoi care while others are very concerned. cool?
You mentioned Reddit and as a member of that community, I’d like you invite you to do an IAMA there. While trolls exist everywhere, I think you will find most of us would ask intelligent, respectful, and civil questions. Besides, outside of the SilverBug sub-reddit, I doubt that anyone has heard of you or C.D. I would hope that you could introduce the virtues of silver stacking to those who otherwise might not know anything about silver.
I for one have questions for you that have nothing to do with SBSS or C.D. Even this thread has devolved into a decisive MM vs. C.D. “discussion” and perhaps a neutral venue would have a different conversion. Anyway, please consider doing an iama at Reddit. My intention is not to expose to the the trolls, rather to express this as an opportunity to further what you do best – put really cool silver into peoples hands.
@xc2, um but you are the only one so far that took it there, just saying and I didn’t delete your comments did I. If you have questions ask them here, I am sure Rob will still do the Reddit thing.
You mentioned Reddit and as a member of that community AND of the MSB of this podcast, I’d like to SECOND the invitation to do an IAMA there.
One of my favorite lines from today’s episode was the bit about if it “was good enough to pass the Spirko bull shit test”. I thought that great, and honestly I can relate to that sentiment. I have a tremendous respect for your world view and overall philosophy. You’ve been honest with this community, and you’ve stood by Rob. That counts in my book, in any currency.
I’m on board. Work out the details with GrymmWRX and Zuizide and I’ll be there.
This is for C.D. Never burn your bridges you never know when you’ll need them for escape.
Silverbug here from reddit.
silverbugs nest in humidors. true story.
Love what your designs are and how they are going… I never would have thought of ‘kids coins’ be they paraDIMES or rounds, so gosh there goes more money in the future lol…
When are the Sentinel Copper rounds coming? Can’t short the ‘poor man’ version! I hope to be ordering some of those soon as well.. I want at *least* a Bi-Metallic backup (gold is still out for me) but would LOVE to continue with copper & silver.
Keep fighting brother… and seriously.. honor is great; but when your in a life or death fight (and they ARE trying to KILL your work) your only concern from there on out is ‘where do we bury the corpse?’ Seriously…
Stay strong! Already have some orders in, lookin forward to it whenever it gets here… God knows it’s worth the wait!
Copper Sentinels? I think we made them at one point for a short while as a special promo piece. I’ll have to go back and look to see if any commitment was made to the effect of “limited run” etc, and if not, I’ll encourage Jack to authorize a run of them.
The only copper sentinels I know of were the special run with the generic ACOS pseudo dollar sign back.
I think Rob’s hesitation in filing a court case could also be because he wanted to work outside the current paradigm. The whole idea behind AOCS is an alternative to the current dollar currency. I love this idea and I would like to see it explored further. I felt the only way to have a successful barter implement is for it to be divisible. Kudos for coming out with the paradimes.
Every order that I placed with Rob and the mint has been filled perfectly.
Rob and Jack I stand beside you.
That is exactly correct. Some people say, solve your own problems and mean it, many others say it but run to the man the second they don’t get what they want.
Yeah, so that’s why Rob solves his problem by running to the government for Chapter 11? Come on. I’m no ditto head, but let’s keep it real.
Roughly where are you at with shipping? (payment to out the door)
Hard to be patient sometimes.. 😉
As of today, there are only (3) orders older than 8/13. So that’s about 5 weeks for the oldest order (not including one of the three orders that contain some item minted elsewhere – we’re still outsourcing a few specialties). And I would say that 5 weeks is kinda the worst-case-scenario right now. Depending on when batches get minted, sometimes we turn things over record fast. Other times, an order may include fifteen different items, and by the time we mint the last unit for the order, the first part of the order goes missing. Grr…..
I allowed this comment though, you know why, to show the type of dumbass moron that doesn’t get to post here. For all those worried about me deleting comments and banning posters (which I have now done to this dumbass) this is the kind of person I delete and or ban.
The order I was wondering about was made on 8/13 so I guess I’m right on the edge of those 3.
So I guess its time to overlap an order and get a hold of some of those Sentinel Para-dimes.
As a question to the audience.. anyone get one of those 1/10 oz gold coins going out with the initial run of para-dimes? Still hoping.. but guessing its not going to be me at this point =(
There are only (5) orders from 8/13 – so you must be John, Jonathan, David or Robert! Thanks for being so patient, and also for your continued support.
Unfortunately, still waiting for my 8/13 order.. and my foolishly placed 9/21 order.
Have you contacted the mint about your 8/13 order? What are they telling you?
My last call to them was the day of their last court appearance. They stated then that they would (based on the court outcome) be able to either use the silver they recovered in court, or if the judgement was against them, use other silver that was on the way to the mint to fulfill my order. And that how long it would take would depend on if they had to wait on inbound silver shipments.
My guess is that they have been filling smaller orders FIRST to maximize the number of satisfied customers, so I ended up somewhere at the bottom of the queue (both of my orders are over 100 oz).
I will admit I have made two orders with M2. One was in January, I got really screwed on delivery time, it was a long time – and yes, a lot longer than normal places like APMEX and Provident. Jack did his video, reassured us, I made another order. So I put another order in. It was a long time, maybe not as long as January, and I got no answer in either case from customer support.
Long story short, I did not get jacked, I got what I ordered. It took a long time. Support was poor – 1 star. I see some things saying support is better now – well good, I hope so. However, now filing bankruptcy? Who knows. Even without the bankruptcy filing, I would never and will never order from M2 again. YMMV. DYODD.
DYODD and ‘check your own gut’, is always good advice. If you’re not comfortable, don’t do it.
Great interview. Thank you for sharing guys. It is great to see Rob coming out and giving his side of the story. Godspeed.
In all of this, what makes me furious is the fact that Rob was held against his will. I must say that if anything. The way Rob is reacting to all of this and the way C.D. is reacting says a lot about what types of people they are. This should show everyone the side that is not to be trusted. This will be the last I am posting on this. I’m not giving any more of my life’s energy to this. Keep your head up Rob you are a true gentleman.
Wanna see something eerie? Wander on to the original series of updates from my old friend and re-read Update 34. My favorite line:
“I have to admit, I love how Republic rolls…”
The “I love how Republic rolls” comment is actual confirmation of Rob’s claim from his “enemy” now isn’t it?
I also got a call from Kim at MM today. She stated that my order was taking longer then expected and should be sent out by Monday. It is really nice to know that comapanies still care enough to call and let you know the status of your order. My only worry is that my husband will get the mail before I do 🙂
Awesome podcast guys. I enjoyed it a lot. As far as your Silverbug infestation…I’m somewhat responsible for some of that. Looks like I was the guy to unofficially announce the 1/10th sentinels.
I ordered two rolls of the paraDimes soon after release and they showed up right on schedule and I am very happy with them. Nonetheless, this business makes me a little nervous and I am not personally able to decide who are the Cowboys and who are the Indians in this whole episode. I will be glad when all this dust clears and I can (or not) safely place another order.
Rob, I really really want to order some Sentinal ParaDimes but this would represent a significant investment for me. To give us peace of mind I respectfully ask if you see a situation developing where you are unable to fulfill orders?? I am most concerned about the court stopping fulfillment or a supplier issue developing which leaves you short of inventory and unable to fulfill orders. I support you verbally and I want to support you financially if you can help me through my questions. Thank you Rob and Jack!!
Looking back at what’s transpired since July 3rd, I can’t really predict much of anything on the legal front. Every attorney I’ve met scratches their head and is dumbfounded when I try to explain the course of events. I certainly feel better now than before, but nothing will surprise me at this point.
Having said that, using a credit card is a great way to establish some protection. Fortunately, paraDIME prices are so competitive that even with the cc surcharge, the prices are still less than what other retailers are charging for tenth ounce silver.
Do you have any comment on your filing papers where you owe AMEX nearly $250k? Is that why paying with a credit card is so safe – because they eat it? Just asking… or do you deny the scans that CD made public as to your creditor filing? Do you have an assets filing? Would you be willing to make your entire filing public in the interest of disclosure? Thanks.
Rob an Jack: I’ve been a small businessman for over 30 years. Sometimes things get tough for a spell. I’ve learned to trust my gut. It tells me you are honorable men, trying to do right, and not willing to be abused. I look forward to supporting you in your battle. Don’t let the bastards get you down. Semper fi! Sam
As a Security Office, one of the first things the company taught us were the “dont do this if you want to stay out of jail” rules. One of the big ones was how to legally detain a suspect.
1. The suspect had to be observed breaking a law, by the Officer in question. Here-say does not give us the right to detain. We must witness the crime.
2. Once a suspect has been detained, and only then by declaring citizens arrest, they must be turned over to authorities in a “timely manner”. This is interpreted to mean right friking now, call the police and ask for assistance. Delaying this step, even for an hour, can result in an arrest warrant for the Security Officer.
Holding someone against their will, whether a citizens arrest was sited or not, for hours, is grounds for illegal detainment, but not kidnapping. For kidnapping charges to apply, the person must be taken to another, different location. Illegal detainment can be a felony, depending on circumstances and the length of time held. Security Officers walk a precarious tightrope because we have no more arresting authority than the average citizen.
Leaving Sam’s Club once, my friend warned to to stop and allow them to examine my purchases, (something No one is required to do, btw) or I might get “water boyed”. My response was, “Cool! Id love to own my own Sam’s Club!” And I would. :d Good luck Rob.
State laws vary and yadda yadda, but in general kidnapping is triggered by moving from one distinct location to another. Moving even from a conference room to an office under duress would generally trigger kidnapping.
Either way Rob has a whole lot more restraint than I have. If some BS rent a cop held me at gun point, I’d probably be sodomizing the SOB with his own gun. I sure as hell would have been pressing charges that day.
Rob what is your connection/involvement with the Freelakotabank and it’s website. Whois.com list you as the owner of the website. The reason I ask is because I wanted to order some silver for MM2 and have them deposit it into my account and then after researching I found out that you have legal involvement in both enterprises. Can you clarify this please.
Mr Lewis – this is a great and reasonable question. Yes, I was integral from day 1 in the creation of the Lakota Currency and the Free Lakota Bank. It’s a very long story of how the whole project came to life, and I’ve never pretended to not be involved and/or a founder of the project.
You’ll also soon come to find that I am at the very same place now with the Crow Nation – helping bring their tribe-recognized currency to life. Coming up soon on the agenda is the launch of their own silver depository. And sure enough, I’ve secured those domain names too.
But back to Lakota. In short, the project didn’t advance from 2008 quite as expected. In fact, it was only mid-2012 that we made significant progress with the Oglala Office of Economic Development (that’s the federally-recognized tribe). A business relationship was formed with the city of Pine Ridge, and a location was finally secured on the reservation to construct the depository. If you check the AOCS site, you may even find a few articles about it. Long story short, after almost 5 years, the project is finally coming together and we will in fact see the project come to physical life. We have the first tenth ounce silver “American Horse” OpenCurrencyX medallions minting (incidentally, tomorrow) to be the backbone of the community currency. In mid 2012, I handed off management to oversee operations at the mint.
There is obviously a lot more to the story, and it will work its way out over the next few months. In the meantime, we’re working on helping a few other Lakota bands get their tribal currencies going, along with several other well-known nations.
Hope this sheds a little light on the subject.
To ask the libertarian philosophy question, where does the idea of bankruptcies fall in such a framework?
If you do not have protections granted by a state, does that mean you simply have to have some type of ‘bankruptcy insurance’ policy?
A judge does not make decisions, you have to have a true arbitrator. Can you really get any companies of substantial size, LLCs, giant corporations because you no longer have a state to say that a company is a ‘person?’ And if they are not people, they cannot sign contracts that libertarians tend to lean-on as the foundation of business/exchange.
You can no longer have other entities taking the risk of a business. Risk has to be accepted by people, even if it is a real co-op setup that could lead to liquidation of the assets of the people involved. So businesses can never get too big.
I ask as merely an academic question. Trying to wrap my head around what a libertarian society bankruptcy would be, and how it would all play-out.
Unfortunately, I’m not in any position to provide an academic response to this question. Incidentally, in a pure voluntary society, are there courts that would hear disputes between parties? If so, what enforcement mechanism would they wield?
So having your debts dissolved by the force of the state is ok? You are not for a voluntary society? I think your friend & backer Kokesh would not like to hear that.
In a voluntaryist society, if you shame yourself by bailing on a debt, you don’t need force to either make you pay or make you safe. You just simply don’t pay. And the lender/investor eats it. But what’s the penalty? Your reputation. Your honor. Oh yes, we have that today right – your “credit score”… not quite. Not the same. This mark in a free market doesn’t get wiped in 7 years, because without government forcing the slate clean, creditors would have a lot longer memory. That 7 years is the “minimum wage” equivalent for dead beat debtors. And keep in mind, it’s your family name you disgrace. You have to live with that in your own head & soul.
There is an interesting book by the name of ‘Daemon’ by Daniel Suarez, wherein everyone has access to all the data on everyone they meet.
So when you walk up to someone, you can pull up their entire history, including their ‘score’ as entered by other people, so that you know who you’re dealing with.
The genius of this, is that it restores what I would call ‘tribal reputation’ and therefore influences behavior. IMO part of the problem we have in modern society is that we’re constantly dealing with ‘strangers’.. with no way of knowing which ones are ‘good’ and which ‘not so good’.
Imagine if the next time you walked into an auto dealership, you saw a floating ‘honesty’ or ‘reputation’ score over the head of every salesmen in the lot. Which one would you buy your car from?
Obviously this would have a fantastic ‘self selection’ effect..
I can’t reply under your response to me, so here we go.
I am not sure if I agree with what you are saying. My question really gets at, do we have corporations in a libertarian society? Do you have bankruptcies as an outlet of protection?
I feel much of the way business works today, everybody wants to be a corporation at the biggest and smallest level because they can decouple their personal risk. Some would say that is smart. But much of the talk with libertarians is the idea of personal responsibility both personally and professionally/business.
So I don’t see how corporate ‘persons’ could exists, and thus people sheltering themselves or assets from risks.
Does the state actually provide a benefit in that regard, because as a society, we are giving people a relief valve to start-over. I believe it is over-used and abused, but still the intent is to help people take risk with the long-term idea of bring benefits to their community.
I believe, as individuals or as a state, we are not looking to crucify people as businesses go bust or whatever the circumstances. You can’t just keep kicking dirt in someones face; you have to allow them to learn from mistakes and rise again, and doesn’t bankruptcy allow that? I am not sure a libertarian social structure would necessarily provide the framework to allow people to make mistakes and start-over.
Do you really have to have fake persons (corporations) to decouple the risk, and not completely wipe someone out?
i think he is forced to work within the state dispute & debt system by the state system being forced onto him. It looks like RG & MM avoided it as long as possible, including trying to use a mediator. But they’re being sued in the state system, so they can’t avoid the state system anymore. I’m sure he’d rather not use the state to do this but in the current nation state system, you can’t ignore the monopoly of force system if it comes at you.
The purpose of corporate structures is to limit the ‘risk’ of doing business (potential losses) to the amount invested in the business. To compartmentalize risk.
IMO this is a ‘good’ thing, as it allows participants, in advance, to know exactly how much they are ‘betting’ on a businesses success. In other words it turns:
Cost: Unknown, Potentially Unlimited (all of your assets, and you are indebted (enslaved) for the rest of your life to repay the debt)
(Potential) Benefit: $1000/mo.
Cost: $10,000 one time investment
(Potential) Benefit: $1000/mo.
As to abuses.. yes, totally abused in our current system. As to corporate personhood.. totally bullshit. The real issue though isn’t the structure, its systemic injustice, and unequal treatment under law.
If an individual working within a corporate structure perpetuates a crime, the individual is guilty of said crime. There are no ‘sentient’ corporations, so a corporation can not be ‘response-able’ (yet). Therefore the actors, both officers and employees, must be held accountable for their actions/inactions.
Bankruptcy – Should a person be (potentially) permanently enslaved for his bad choices or bad luck? (in life: choices x luck = outcome)
I think the answer is ‘no’. But I also believe that someone’s declaring bankruptcy (or the bankruptcy of companies they controlled/owned) should be VERY public knowledge.
As those choosing to deal with this person in the future need to know that he is either prone to bad choices, or potentially ‘unlucky’.
Also note a Chapter 11 doesn’t dissolve debt, it structures is so the company can continue operations. For that to happen agreements are made to continue repayment as a rate reasonable to the creditor and possible to the bankrupted party. It always comes down to this, can the business show a plan that is reasonable and possible. When that is done 11s go well, that is Rob’s aim but in addition to that he is now using the leverage offered by Republic in committing several felonies. I would bet Republic will be getting some “paperwork” soon, and I am betting the numbers on it will be very large and well, given that cost and possible prison time, they MIGHT get really reasonable really fast. But only time will tell.
I don’t know the exact details of how forced Rob’s hand will be, but my understanding is he will have a fiduciary requirement to pursue the full amount of damages he can collect on. This would include civil damages for things like wrongful imprisonment, abuse of process, libel, slander, etc. I’m going to take a wild guess and say that the civil damages of a corporation holding a competitor’s CEO at gun point for 8 hours will amount to more than 1.4 million. Extending a line of credit then claiming theft and fraud in a court request to seize assets might end up paying off a bunch of other bills. I’m also thinking damages related to libel and slander will pay off some other debts. In short, there is a fair chance of the people trying to put MM in the ground ending up paying off most of the debts, and mandated or not, I think Rob should just accept his present predicament, and break some knees (metaphorically). I’ll reference Proverbs 26:27 for anybody that doesn’t get the irony here.
Although I think your reply has some holes; I am not wanting to get into that.
I am really wanting to focus on the main question. Does a libertarian society have corporations (sheltering risks and avoiding personal responsibility, I beg to differ on the fact that many corporations have been found guilty of crimes and paid hefty fines, but no one has gone to jail even though a real person(s) were involved with whatever the incident was) and bankruptcies (state granted restructuring or relinquishing of debts)?
My gut says, no it doesn’t, and at best is a paper exercise that could never get implemented without a body with some type of power (i.e. a government).
But I am more than willing to listen if a practical alternative does exists.
I definitely agree. It does seem pretty obvious that to me Rob incorporated at the last minute because he saw the writing on the wall. You go back to a year + ago and hear him talk about attempting to work outside the system and you’ll see his mentality (which would agree with your statement).
My sister’s husband made a comment to me when we were talking about having one’s own business that I should get an LLC that way I’ll be “protected” and I couldn’t help but be completely offended by the statement. No personal liability for what I do? That’s unthinkable to me. Its the nature of the society we live in where on one hand you have out of control law/lawyers who will nail you if you can be legally held responsible, and on the other end you have everyone trying to not be held liable.
I liked Rob’s statements over a year ago about trying to work outside the system. So, for myself, once I get started, I’ll probably try to see how far I can take that. Business? No I don’t have a business, I just do things for people when they ask and we trade stuff. Employees? No no no.. they’re just people I hire to do things for me, “contractors” if you will. I’m sure that would piss off a number of lawyers and judges…
I think so long as the world is ran by insane power maniacs we’ll keep seeing this situation. (The small man has to play the system and is likely to get caught doing measly things, whilst the big man can overtly do anything they want, and be untouchable)
Just saw your reply above..
What I’m advocating in my ‘utopian’ society is full personal responsibility, and protection against liability.
What I mean:
If YOU do something, you are 100% responsible for the consequences of your actions.
If SOMEONE ELSE does something ‘in your name’ (’employee’ or someone else working on your behalf) YOUR liability for their actions is LIMITED to a previously agreed upon level.
You are able to monitor and control your own actions 100% of the time.
It is impossible for you to monitor or control another person 100% of the time (particularly in a libertarian society).
As you have limited control, you can have only limited responsibility.
You hire an employee. He starts having family troubles and is prescribed a psychotropic. He goes off his meds, comes into work, and shoots two employees and a customer.
To what extent should you be personally LIABLE to the surviving families of the murdered people?
Now, you could make an argument that I could HIRE a person to commit a crime (dumping toxins into the river for instance). And then try and use a legal structure to avoid prosecution.
Well if I was ‘involved’ (gave the orders) I am 100% responsible and should be prosecuted. If I indirectly gave the order (told my managers to ‘increase profits or else’) but had no direct knowledge, then fining the structure and clawing back any disbursed monies would be appropriate.
As a small business person, its easy to imagine that you can have 100% control over your business and the actions of your employees.. but as businesses grow, and spread out, this is less and less the case.
If you’re arguing for Libertarianism, I don’t think you would then argue that ONLY small businesses can exist.
So how would YOU handle these cases WITHOUT Limited Liability structures?
(Note: I am not in anyway promoting or endorsing the way Limited Liability structures are used in our current system. IMO Our current system is entirely corrupt and unjust.)
Yes.. some form of ‘enforcement’ will exist in any society. And ‘enforcement’ assumes and ‘enforcer’. In a society where everyone is equal, everyone would be an enforcer.. and enforcement might be something as simple as ‘shunning’ a person who has not met their responsibilities.
(keep hitting return too fast)
Corporations and LLCs are just ‘standard contracts’ that are recognized by the state.. similiar to a ‘marriage license’ being a boilerplate partnership contract.
In a utopian future it is not necessary for there to be ‘standard’ contracts, nor is a state necessary for a contract to exist.
Which kind of leads back to the original question:
To what level can you ‘enforce’ contracts?
I think the way to state this (to avoid current labels) would be:
In a Libertarian society, how do you ensure that parties to an agreement, meet the terms of the agreement?
Is it possible to ENSURE that all parties meet their obligations WITHOUT resorting to force?
Also I keep meaning to mention this, but I’m still calling $16.50 in the October time frame.
Also, I keep forgetting to mention, for those wanting 3rd party dealers, check out Amagi. They carry a lot of Mulligan Mint products, and have been responsive when I suggested items I was looking for and they have chosen not to take sides in this. I really can’t say enough good things about the handful of orders through them, so for anybody wanting that as a safety blanket, I’d look into them. They don’t beat JM bullion on the stuff that he carries so I still go to them for ASEs, but back when several dealers carried SBSS stuff, Amagi was ALWAYS significantly cheaper and more pleasant to deal with.
Man, I thought we were done with this drama, and now here’s another whole episode of it. *facepalm* I’ll be looking forward to more great content like Jack usually produces, like another two part series with someone who really has something useful to contribute, like Steve Harris. Or other great interviews like Glenn Tate, etc. But this? This is 60 minutes of my life I get back since I won’t be wasting my time listening to it. This is just a big head shake to me – pointless and not informative. I wish that our community would just be neutral, bid Rob good luck, and be done; but this crap just seems to drag on and on and on. I’ll spend the 60 minutes listening to Denninger’s podcast instead today, and hope for better tomorrow. Congrats on the Chapter 11, Rob, I guess it’s good news? Whatever. Peace out.
If people read though the comments they will see the only drama here is YOU. I have an obligation to tell people what is going on, there is a lot of TSP vested in what Rob is doing. If he fails it wont come as a surprise to the TSP audience I have been transparent with EVERYTHING I know and allowed Rob to do the same today.
Frankly Chip you don’t know Rob, I have for 5 years.
Why have you made like 800 posts on a show you’re not interested in then. Talk about waste of time, this would be about half as long if it weren’t for you.
“60 minutes of my life I get back since I won’t be wasting my time listening to it.”
Hold on a minute. I’ve been scanning the comments, and you’ve made, I don’t know, two dozen comments so far (Maybe only a dozen and a half). And I think it’s fair to say that, even in places where you might have some kind of point, your rhetorical style has been that of an utter jackass.
And here you say you’re not even going to listen to the episode? Really? You’re going to make jackass comments in response to an episode you didn’t even listen to?
Don’t worry he is in a “time out” for being rude to other members of the community. I think he went off his meds or something. He has been sending me ranting emails since, I told him when he is ready to apologize to insidious let me know until then he is in time out, (temporary ban from posting). If he wasn’t a long time member of the community I would have just banned him outright.
Frankly here is the deal, he doesn’t want to hear about Mulligan Mint and feels that I am wrong for putting it on my show, instead I should have put something on he wanted to hear. Seriously this is what one of his recent angry mails said. You just have to laugh.
Was there a police report filed on you being held hostage? I may have missed it on the podcast, but are you going to press charges on that?
Also, while you were being held, how did these guys gain access to the mint? what authority did they have to send all of your employees home early? Thanks for your answers.
I asked a very similar question, and it also got missed.
I was thinking about this, and the MM complex surely has surveillance cameras, right? Add in the Miami Police reports and it’s surely a slam dunk on the RMC side of all this stuff. Do these things exist?
Better Republic doesn’t even deny they did what they did. They actually claim they had the right to do this. Talk about lawyer candy! I told Rob the day this happened to file both civil and criminal charges, he simply wanted to work it out.
Yeah, that’s one of the ‘not so good’ parts about Rob’s choices. I imagine the RMC lawyers could easily argue that Rob didn’t want to get the police involved because they might find something Rob didn’t want them too.
I understand seeking an honorable solution, and I’m 100% behind that… but kidnapping and unlawful entry? I cannot fathom why Rob wasn’t lawyered up by the end of the day….
Then again, I don’t know Rob at all, and you do, so *shrug*.
The worst part is that no matter the outcome of all this poo, the prepper community as a whole will lose a lot of confidence in buying precious metal rounds from anyone but the “big names”. So sad.
Keep the faith Jack, Rob. The justice system gets thing right every now and then.
I hope Rob doesn’t take this the wrong way, but I keep feeling like he has a near fatal case of normalcy bias. Rob keeps saying stuff that sounds just like a mugging victim that can’t wrap their head around what happened/is happening.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I’ve decided it’s either that or we’ve got a regular Danny Ocean on our hands here. lol
Ouch. I almost take that the wrong way.
The bottom line is that my ex paints me as a career international-globetrotting con-artist criminal mastermind. Wow. If that’s the case, I must not be very good: I sure don’t have a lot to show for it.
I would rather have the world think of me as a pretty down-to-earth family guy that spends most of my time with my wife, kids, siblings and team at the mint. I’m guessing that a lot of this will be explored/exposed as we drag ourselves through this process.
If the latter example is true, you can see why it’s hard for me to conceive of evil. I just don’t understand it. It’s hard for me to take it seriously. I see opportunity in the world, not risk. Even with all the obvious warning signs and economic factors, I still thought it was a good idea to start a business here in the USA!
But sadly, that part of me is starting to fade. I’m a lot more skeptical of people now. After seeing my sales director leave and work with his buddy to take apart my business piece by piece, I don’t trust people as quickly. And this is a guy that slept on my couch for months while I relocated him to Texas!
Anyway, I’m learning and growing, too. So things moving forward will be different. Not cold, or bad, but different. I guess that’s what growing up is about.
After 8 hours of sitting in the same chair, I was really happy just to see the light of day again. I tried not to let my imagination run wild while I was under guard, but it still felt good to be out when the police finally found me.
I walked out the door and the police asked “Do you want to press charges?” I asked if a crime was committed. I felt pretty sure about the whole wrongful imprisonment thing, but I don’t know Florida law (specifically statute 787.01 and 787.02). They pulled the “Well, we’ll have to have a detective come out, and there’s a lot of paperwork, and, and, and…” and I asked if I could do it later. They said yes and I just wanted to get home. I wasn’t able to catch the last flight of the day back to Dallas and ended up paying $1100 to get re-booked for the next day.
Access to the mint was obtained by RMC’s president telling my brother that I was in FBI custody, and that if he wanted me to be released, then access to the mint was required along with a full inspection. I don’t know who officially made the order to send our staff home, but by that time everyone in the building new something was wrong.
Yikes! Scary stuff Rob.
So what happened during that 8 hours? You just sit there and a guy blocked the door?
And isn’t there cameras in the mint filmed these guys trashing the joint?
“Access to the mint was obtained by RMC’s president telling my brother that I was in FBI custody…”
Holy crap! That’s just gotta be a whole ‘nother crime right there. Surely it would provide additional evidence of criminal intent right there. I mean, if they believed they were in the right in holding you, why did they lie about the FBI thing and why did they lie to the cops when they first came out looking for you?
Words fail me!
On some levels this might be a larger crime then the kidnapping and unlawful detention. Invoking the authority of Federal Law Enforcement, really? I mean I am not sure but that sounds like a major federal crime to me. We shall see.
Yeah. More relevant is the civil consequences. Just being a douche has a dollar sign attached to it. Claiming to act under authority to be a douche is a whole other ballpark. I’m seeing your typical jury placing the dollar value right about whatever that entire company is worth.
This whole mess is Proverbs 26:27 played out.
Impersonating the FBI to enter under color of authority… that’s cute…
Re above (running out of reply room), I would make a point of not getting jaded per say. I’m very trusting right up to the point that a person gives me reason to reconsider. Everything from subtle facial expressions and body language to overt actions say things, and I find those things to be honest 99.99% of the time so I pretty much take people at face value for whoever they are choosing to be at that time. My normalcy bias comment was essentially an observation that when the face value of the people involved changed the interaction with them didn’t follow.
Rob, I just listened to the podcast, but I am still left wondering why CD did what he did. I understand what you are saying (and take your word for it) about RMC. But the whole CD thing still boggles my mind. Unless he is in with RMC in forming the mint. Any clarity on that part of it?
The motive behind RMC makes sense, but I too am wondering the motive behind CD’s departure. But this is something we may never know. CD is the only one who truly knows and I doubt he will give a straight answer now that court proceedings are in order.
I’ve been reading a bunch in the last few hours. Interesting case made by both sides, each with their own holes in information. This whole thing seems like an episode of Law and Order. :/
The biggest question I have at this point is: What’s with the unlawful detainment/kidnapping charges? How legit are those? Are there any public records? If the police were involved, there should be, right?
Maybe I’m being thick here, but, Rob… why didn’t you just give the silver back to RMC? It was theirs wasn’t it?
I’m guessing its not that simple. I’m pretty sure, RMC loaned it to them for MM to use (something I considered doing awhile back) so, its not like they just have that material on hand able to be given up. Its like you taking out a loan for 200k for your house, and the bank coming a few years in and say “we want all our money back now”.
Well that’s actually kind of a poor example because you’re house isn’t “making you money” where as the other is a loan/investment.
It is actually a great analogy and the best one for most people to understand. I again must note Rob has made multiple offers of repayment over reasonable amounts and periods of time, Republic has refused them all. The want MM to go under, far more than they want their money. A very sad but apparently true state of affairs.
Again Rob offered a judgment way back in July, court enforceable for full payment by January 1st, 2014. Republic said no. What does that tell you?
Jack, Mike, thanks.
I appreciate the straightforward answers. I’m pretty legalease illiterate, so cut me a bit of slack 🙂
When Rob received the court order to not touch RMC’s silver, that actually meant “don’t use what remains of the silver” since Rob had already used some for product?
I’m still going to place an order with them today. Any way you look at it investing is gambling.
I would rather support a company that is supporting this community and trying to do great things overall for the country so the other guys can get bent in my book.
I was wondering when we do the open house of the mint if you could have some rounds minted for immediate purchase? Sounds like fun and I look forward to seeing you all there.
What would really be cool is to have a manual press that would allow someone to “mint” their own coin.
Cowards troll, while moderators sleep.
Refering to the posts made after 1am, by a troll. Hopefully Jack deletes them soon.
Not deleting them, let them stand to show what I put an end to! People bitch about me removing shit, fine, I’ll just block them from posting until they settle the hell down and apologize for being a dick. He is a regular and welcome back as soon as he sobers up and straitens out.
As to asset disclosure in his original question, he has to disclose all assets of the mint, the court sees to that. Said filings are all made public and timelines of compliance are set by the courts. I don’t know if Chip was huffing glue with his Jack Daniels or what last night because he should know that too.
He is a regular here. Not normally a troll, but something was up last night. Hopefully when his hangover wears off he will come to his senses again. That is why I refused to get into it with him. He clearly just needs a hug.
He was even trying to troll my blog (and probably doubled the site traffic for the week). And yeah, Jack will probably make most of it go poof. I know I would.
See my comment above, I am tired of cleaning up messes for people, if they want to show their ass I will let them. He is blocked from posting until he takes a few BC powders and gets over the hang over.
Thanks for doing the right thing. Excellent opportunities are just over the horizon.
Thanks for the update!
I just placed another order a few days ago (Christmas is right around the corner) and I look forward to seeing what you guys come out with in the future.
P.S. I hope your voice gets back to 100% soon Jack!
I have no interest or value in taking sides, but one point/accusation stands out to me. Rob, can you add any clarity or comments to selling CD’s brand/product i.e. SBSS designs after his separation? That stands out to me as an issue and I’d think anyone else, Jack, included would have an issue if you were selling there product without their involvement/approval. Thanks to you both for the open forum for discussion.
There are really two parts to this issue:
The first is that most people are under the assumption that my ex partner a) came up with the design ideas himself and b) paid for all the costs associated with creation.
a) there was a TSP episode that focuses on this question for the original Debt & Death design/coin, which I firmly believe was conceived in part by a guy named Johan in Thailand, a man who endeavored to start minting coins with my ex. He was never compensated for his input, and eventually, I paid him the fee he requested. Moreover, when we started working on the project, the first run was brought to life by our staff artist, working with the creative contribution from Johan and my ex, combined. After the first coins were minted, it was decided that they were horrible, and creative license was granted to Heidi Wastweet to re-do the project and fix it. Again, she used the design elements and created her own original sculpts from there.
On the next coin, I give credit to my ex for the Trivium idea. For Slave Queen, Freedom Girl, Ag47, Cannabis, and everything else, these were either designed by Heidi or a collaboration between our entire team. Shortly, I’ll post originals and the trail from one end of the process to the other so you can see how & who brought them to life.
b) every dime for every artist, sculptor, die engraver, shipping expense, and any other cost associated with the entire project was paid for by me. My ex never once contributed a single dime to cover start-up expenses and never had a single dime deducted from his share of the profits for costs.
The second issue is what happened after the exit. In our “partnership”, my job was to do pretty much everything, and my partner’s job was to promote the coins. I believe we both did our jobs very well, given the circumstances that I outline in the SBSS story video. When my partner left, it didn’t relieve my responsibilities too. Just cause he didn’t want to do his part didn’t mean that I was allowed to not do my part. At minimum, I had to continue minting and shipping products to customers that bought and paid. We already made commitments on releases and dates, as well as the fact that I paid for art, sculpts, dies, etc etc. And, I’ve been through the legal system enough times to know about “unclean hands”, where basically neither person does what they’re supposed to do and then neither party is right. So, I continued as scheduled.
Interestingly enough, as I’m writing this, we just had a partner send notice of cancellation of their coin project. I can only guess why….but regardless, this customer has paid for all expenses along the way, and if they want to put the project on hold, that’s 100% their right to do. And I’ll even ship them the dies, sculpts, etc etc, because they own them.
And it’s not the only time we’ve parted ways with a partner. We’ve done hundreds of projects like this, and this is the only one that ended as it did.
What happened in this example is strange to say the least. Instead of sitting down and talking about an exit, there was a demand and a smear campaign. I compare it to the present issue because there is no clear motive, goal or exit. It’s irrational and defies logic.
Hope this helps provide some insight on why we continued minting & marketing.
I hope, for your sake, that there are legally acceptable paper trails surrounding all this. With my dealing lawyers is that a lack of documentation is equivalent to being guilty :/
I can honestly say that I have no affiliation to either side of this conflict, especially since each side is calling the other lying, cheating thieves. Obviously someone is lying.
Having read through most of the ‘facts’ available for both sides on the net, I can say that regardless of who’s lying and who’s not… Rob, you sound like you are at least endeavoring to just get past this and move on with life. CD and associates seem to have burying MM as their only goal.
Well, I can only hope that the truth comes out and ‘the good guy’ wins.
Just let me know what type of proof you need and I’ll supply it. I can’t provide hard evidence for EVERYTHING I claim, but I can prove most claims and can easily disprove most allegations.
(Weird, the reply link disappeared for your post Rob)
No, Rob, you’ve got nothing to prove to me. Don’t waste your time or energy on lil old me. Like I said, I’m a non-factor and a bystander in all this.
My none-to-important opinion is that you seem to be shooting a bit straighter than your opposition. If you are the good guy (and it seems like you just might be) then I hope you prevail. Good luck sir!
Sounds to me like you as the owner of the work had every right to continue selling the SBSS products.
Thanks for making this a stand alone episode. I have no ill will toward anyone, I just prefer to fast forward thru this stuff. The stand alone episode just allowed me to skip it all.
Rob, another questions. Is there anything to the fact that in June you hired head of Sales from RMC? Did you scout/headhunt him? Are they getting back at you for that? Just curious.
Looking back, it was not a good idea to pick him up when I did, if it was a good idea to pick him up at all.
Jared resigned from RMC and was planning to go to another refiner. RMC threatened heavy litigation regarding a non-compete, and Jared found himself a free agent with a desire to avoid refineries for a bit. So, I asked my new account contact at RMC if hiring Jared was okay, and the response was “we don’t care”.
I think they cared quite a bit more than they let on. Yes, I think that there is some bad blood regarding this.
I have to ask, whats the deal with issuing 1099s now? Shouldnt that already have been done in the past to keep things legal in the eyes of the taxman.
Its a serious question. I get 1099 when ever I wind up doing work with another company, big or small, if I go over a certain amount of income. Its not unusual, its standard business practice. Where I work now we hand out 1099s like they are candy. No one likes involving the IRS in anything but,we have little choice in the matter to keep things all nice and legal like.
I understand the implications that now all of a sudden the other parties involved will now have the IRS being notified of income that may, probably, not have been reported before.
My question is still the same, why 1099 now? In the past I would have assumed the reporting requirements were the same on both ends. Unless that was not the case.?
Rob and mentioned they incorporated July 1st, if i remember correctly, does / did that suddenly change reporting requirements?
For better or worse, what’s happened is that we’ve had to “grow up” a lot in the last few months, evolving quickly from a family “mom & pop” to a finely-tuned enterprise. Along with that, we’ve spent a lot of time getting CAUGHT UP on things that weren’t a top priority for us in the past.
And we’ve also formalized a bit too. The change has been bitter-sweet, and we’re able to take advantage now of conventional resources out of our reach as a sole-prop.
Whether you get a 1099 or not, taxpayers are still required to report income. My guess is that my old friends didn’t report income properly. They’ll have a good opportunity now to catch up too.
I received notice of shipment for my paradimes during the show.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
Ron in MO
Good interview Rob, Thanks Jack (especially for keeping the trolls down).
Hopefully this helps to get rid of the drama and you can spend your time on real work and serving your customers – this looks like exactly what you want.
I am surprised that it took this long to go Chapter 11 – so I applaud you for trying to work with your creditors.
Perhaps I will see some of your products up here in Canada someday. (soon?)
Opa-Locka? Rob is lucky he wasn’t shot! jk I lived in that area for a while and it had a reputation for being seedy.
I’m busy reading through this document and I noticed there are a lot of pages missing from your disposition in the version I linked. Kinda suspicious.
Do you have a complete version of this somewhere?
I think they only included portions of the depo that were relevant to the motion before the court. I have a copy of the depo somewhere, and my video team will put together a “Greatest Moments” video from it. I’m pretty funny:
Q: In 2004, you moved to Texas. How did you get here?
A: I drove.
Nice. While a greatest moments video would be informative, an unedited video and/or transcript of the depo would be better for ‘transparency’. As it stands, the version I got from the CDs site has sooo many pages missing that it’s impossible to gain context, which is very important.
It’s very easy to make someone look good or bad by removing parts of a conversation.
That’s all neither here, nor there since I am merely an intrigued party and have no other involvement beyond that.
Perhaps I missed it, but is there a court date yet for the criminal charges by you and/or a date for the ones against you?
Just received my latest MM order. It may have been the one ‘delayed’ order Rob referred to, as it originally was for an outsourced round that ended up being discontinued. They kept me informed, apologized often, finally found it was impossible to fulfill original order, so gave me various options. Full refund, or replacement for similar rounds. I went with similar as it was about the size not design [1/2 oz silver]. They threw in some free coppers & a paradime for my inconvenience. That is customer service. Problems do happen, and with the # of orders I have done, i have had some issues just about everywhere I’ve gone, as it is a low-margin industry with a highly volatile price of raw materials. It is how a company deals with them that lets me know to trust them or not. I am very happy with MM. I hope MM survives stronger through this. If people are concerned about ordering, use a credit card. If they are not able to fulfill due to court issues, I trust MM would reverse charges & do full refund, but you can have card company reverse if that doesn’t happen so no risk.
Not understand what the beef is. Chapter 11 is a strategic decision. Do whatever is best for the business as long as customers don’t get hurt. ME? I made my order for paradimes a while back (when first available) and got them today. Result = very satisfied Customer. It’s not the first time I’ve ordered from them and it won’t be the last time either. Naysayers = why don’t you go and whine about a significant problem? There are plenty of other issues to be concerned about. These guys are not a problem.
I got the call from MM today. My order was ~8/30. Apparently my order has begun production (or is about to based on new shipment of raw material), so I’m looking at ~2 weeks to delivery. That puts me at about 5 weeks as someone said above.
No big deal. It’s not like I was trying to spend it this week. Once it’s in hand, another order forthcoming.
Just wanted to say that I placed an order a few weeks ago, paid by check and the past couple of days, I have been wondering what the status is. As if by magic, today I got a phone call informing me that the order was delayed by a week or two. I am happy to do business with you guys, and I appreciate the personal level of customer service. If this were eBay my review would be “A++++”! lol.
Just a chime in on my order from M2. I placed an order for some paradimes in early August around the release date and received them today. Got a follow up call and email from Jennifer to confirm shipping and what not. Great customer service.
Bottom line for me…I don’t give two shits about all of the drama. It really isn’t my job to judge. That will work itself out. I’ve been a listener and an MSB member since the early car days and I’m going to trust Jack and this community until I see a reason not to and I doubt that that’s going to be an issue anytime soon.
So for now…off to M2 to order some Sentinel Paradimes…
So so happy to hear that Rob and Mulligan mint are finally coming out (reluctantly) swinging, I’ve always been a big fan of Mulligan. I literally felt physically ill/angry at hearing Rob’s story of illegal detainment. It’s awesome to think of those other guys getting even a small dose of what they so richly deserve. Good luck Rob & Mulligan!
i’m going to pick up some sentinel para-dimes, I have some barter is better on the way. In the unfortunate event that MM does lose, these may be the last sentinel para-dimes to come into existence right? They are cool to have and seem to be supporting a good cause.
I suppose I am a little late to the party with my question, but I just read this article that just came out recently:
I have two qquestions:
1. The article notes that you were trying to determine what happened to Republic’s missing silver. Did you determine what happened to the silver?
2. Did the sherriff’s deputies remove the gold qand silver at MM while you were being held for 8 hours at Republic’s offices?
Thank you for your time!,
Not getting into any debate, just throwing a note out there for anyone who is looking around for backups for their stacking.
There *is* a north american mint that is making divisible 1oz bars and rounds. You can snap them into four pieces. Not quite as useful as the paradimes, but better than a 1oz round that can’t be used for smaller transactions.
Not going to link to them, as I’m not affiliated with them and I don’t want to be accused of spamming. But if anyone is interested they can simply google the words stagecoach and divisible and Google should know what you’re looking for.
I just received my paradimes and Am %200 satisfied! I hope to see you succeed. I plan on ordering much more. Will deliveries be faster in the coming weeks?
Also, if I were to place a large part of my savings in silver what is the channel/method/places that this silver can be converted back to FRNs(dollars) in the future without loosing money?
Thanks, and keep up the GREAT work!!!
If I place an order, how long will it take to ship my order after my funds clear?
Had a big order outstanding [at least for our family $1,500.00] for paradimes [love the concept of fractional silver]. My check was cashed before the bankruptcy filing and we were rather concerned. Given all that was going on @ MM we were understanding when return email communications were not immediately forthcoming and frankly we go more concerned when three daily emails went unanswered. Not so long story short, we got our paradimes today [nicely done by the way] and more importantly MM delivered. So well done and in our own modest way we hope to help out by placing another “unplanned” order. We wanted a few 1/10 for possible eventual use now we will purchase to help out an honorable man and his company!
Looks like my order was canceled and my money was refunded. Situation will be announced Tues.
You will receive a phone call within the next business day (Either today or Tuesday October 1st) explaining your order cancellation, and why your credit card has been refunded. There was an issue with our merchant processor, and all will be explained Tuesday.– If you prefer you can contact us M-F 9am-5pm CST at 1-888-299-4399 – Thank you so much for your patronage & patience! Have a Great Day! – M2 Factory Store Finance Department ~ Vicky
So I finally got in touch with M2. Man they are getting hurdles after hurdles. So their merchant processor dropped them as a customer. I am assuming Visa, due to a discrepancy coin “bit coin” which is a REAL coin. I am having to pay with paypal now. Prayers to their company. Hopefully they can get everything worked out.
Am I reading this correctly? Is Visa so painfully moronic that they applied their anti bit coin policy to M2 for selling a silver round with the words bit coin on it?!?
yeah that’s what I have been told.
I received my paraDIMES (would have been the 24th) but my neighborhood is bad, so used my brothers address. So I lost a few days there dealing with the post office. From order to delivery (available) was 13 days. Amazing!
My skin is itching waiting for the Ghost Money coins, but I was so impressed with the paraDIMES I bought another round of those and (hopefully a pure profit point) box of copper rounds.
With fractional silver live now, and about the same in the 1oz copper rounds, there’s no reason not to spread the word (and coins) of Real Money locally. Every cocktail waitress, pizza delivery boy, or even merchant vendor that gets exposed (one mention of QE3 ought to do it) will open minds and hopefully open options for Real Commodity Currency.
Bless MM2 & Rob’s endeavors. Kick A$$ brother!
Good thing the “silver community” wants nothing to do with Rob Gray’s “stolen” silver… [/sarc]
Check out these buy back premiums:
if that were true InBox485, then NO ONE would want to be a pirate, there would be no ‘talk like a pirate day’ (was a week or two ago I believe)…. in fact, this might have just been a clever ploy to make the product MORE valueable! Pirate Treasure! /rolleyes
I’m not following. To recap in case my sarcasm didn’t translate:
– claim after claim was made that the “reintroduction” of slave queen and freedom girl would make their collector’s value close to zero
– other claims were that when CD went his way that RG’s stuff would be “dirty” and CD’s stuff would be the premium
– SD (one of the key SBSS 3rd party dealers) is offering VERY high buy back premiums on SBSS products that are sold out already
– the CD stuff that SD sells is “on sale” for trade in for RG’s SBSS stuff
LOL stupid facts getting in the way of propaganda again. LMAO, thanks for the update bro.
called MM today to find out where my paradimes were.
Ordered 9/10 two rolls.
9/11 payment was accepted. That day I checked the website and it said 2-3 weeks for shipment.
9/30 called to check on status. was told orders through roof and maybe another 2 weeks.
10/14 called. was told to cancel my order and I would have to go through the card company to get a refund. and if I still wanted my order to reorder.
I have tried to support MM despite their mistakes. Now it is costing my $50 to retrieve that payment back from MM without anything to show for it.
I will not be dealing with MM in the future.
I am very sorry to hear that. I wish you had contacted me during this issue so I could have tried to help you.
Im late in posting this… After all the hoopla over the C11 filing, my experience has been fine with M2. Sometimes *so far mostly* has been a bit of a wait… I believe the first ‘ghost money’ round took nearly a month to ‘confirm’ the order (or however that goes… it was processing)
I did get that order, I’ve gotten all my orders. I however have never gotten any calls. Im not really worried about that… I believe in the product so Im willing to wait (and greedy, I may share later but I order for me not gifts)
Oct 29th I got a couple emails saying an order was completed and the other stating it had shipped. By experience it takes about 7-10 days, sometimes longer to get to me…. so I was shocked to get a call from my brother saying it was at his house 2 days later (I don’t deliver to my neighborhood)
That blows me away. For now Im still a happy customer, still ordering, and have only another batch of Sentinel paraDIMES to receive.
Keep up the great work Rob!