Episode-1237- Michael Evans on the Rising American Police State — 81 Comments

  1. :/ not sure I want to know. By the way, is there still a way to create an account on here and add a picture for the comments?

  2. First let me say that I really do enjoy listening to your podcasts and as such I am a member of the support brigade. I find your discussions about preparedness, sustainability and permaculture to be of the highest quality and very, very useful in my own efforts. I can hardly say the same when you delve into political matters, but to each their own opinion.

    This episode, however, really takes the cake and had me yelling at the radio in the car. Most of the discussion started with some large and significant assumptions: for instance, as Michael states “you know their intentions are nefarious, there is no other way of looking at it”. You both start with the assumption that all government, regardless of the extremely complex details involved, is out to destroy, enslave and/or subjugate the citizenry.

    For someone who lauds himself as a critical thinker, this is absolutely irresponsible! On the one hand you attack the government and the media for demonizing their critics, and then without evidence, discussion or critical analysis, you turn around and do the same. It is very, very hard not to see everything that comes after these perfunctory assumptions as fruit of the poison tree. I’m not saying that the discussion does not have merit; to the contrary, it is highly significant. But without providing some semblance of balance, the whole conversation rings of poor logic at best and paranoid conspiracy at worst.

    • Mike if you can’t see that we were talking about top level government and the larger system, vs. the people at your local extension agency and such, perhaps it is you that needs to work on critical thinking.

    • Mike,
      One of my good friends is a Highway Patrolman in Ohio and he agrees with what was said in this podcast. He’s flat out told me that he, as in the good cops, is outnumbered and it is getting worse.

  3. There is a browser plugin called HTTPS Everywhere for Firefox and Chrome. It encrypts your communications with many major websites.

  4. Before you pay the 18 year old in ding dongs to run the drones, you have to make the drones.

    For that you have NASA hire bright college interns to make the drones smarter, such as programming cool looking RC vehicles to drive in formation so you can apply the same technology to the drones. That was several years back. And they feel good about it because they are helping the “space program.”

  5. Nice episode Jack. Im curious if you or Michael have any thoughts on the fact that the main stream media are turning on the gov’t, as in reporting these NSA leaks.

    I see it going a few ways myself:
    1. its part of that warring mafia family
    2. its a bait tactic and they want people to know they are watching
    3. it could be a positive force actually trying to do good

    Any thoughts on this, because its somewhat of a dicotamy at the moment.


    • Rob, coverage of the NSA leaks has generally characterized them in a manner that is most favorable to government surveillance.

      For example, seldom does the coverage mention that Snowdon blew the whistle on James Clapper, head of the NSA, for lying to Congress about the extent of data collection just a few months before Snowdon went public.

      A truly independent media would hound the President about this: “Mr. President, how can you not prosecute James Clapper for committing perjury? And how can you threaten Edward Snowden with prosecution, for the act of uncovering this lie to the American people — a crime committed by your NSA chief on your watch? Mr. President, did you know that what Eric Clapper said was a lie? Why didn’t you order him to reveal the truth? Mr. President, is your effort to capture Snowdon meant to silence other potential whistleblowers who have information about your administration?” They could come up with hundreds of variations on the theme, and just keep asking until the American people themselves demand justice (at least for Snowden).

      And how often is Snowden’s leak referred to as the most significant leak in US history? That’s what Daniel Ellsberg calls it — Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers, and the media typically treats him as a hero for doing so.

      Also, a study by the Columbia Journalism Review found that coverage in the major national newspapers has been consistently pro-surveillance. The Young Turks have a great story on it:

      I don’t think there’s some massive conspiracy that the media is part of (or that we currently live in a fascist dictatorship, as Jack and the guest were saying today… far from it!). The media just reflects society. If there were so much as a loud minority in either party (say, a few dozen Rand Pauls), the coverage would have been very different. And the great part is, we don’t even have to elect a few dozen Rand Pauls — we just need to pick up the phones and call our Congressmen. Lawmakers have very little appetite for pissing off the voters. The response to Obama’s plans in Syria is a great example of this — Congress was ready to rubber-stamp the attack, until a bunch of average American voters spontaneously decided to call and put a stop to it.

      • @BeninMA, shame on you you know how damaging facts are to people’s faith in the system. LMAO

        Great stuff man!

      • I agree, but they are still bringing it up and they arent 100% in favor of it with all of their reporting, so it makes me think something else is going on.

      • Agree Jack. I was just looking at it purely from an elite control standpoint, not necessarily warring mafia families.

  6. Rob, I have some ideas on the MSM or MOP, (Ministry of Propaganda) as I like to refer to them, relating to your questions on them “turning on the gov’t”.
    1: The alternative media are gaining enormous ground on the 6 big media “families”. As a result, they are losing market-share. Media runs on advertising dollars. Loss of market share results in loss of revenue. Their loyalty ends where their livelihood begins.
    2: The MOP media has an approval rate similar to congress. Media however cannot survive without a credibility factor. Folks don’t have to wait 2, 4 or 6 years to change the channel or the station. The media see the trends, read the comments on their online sites, and feel the tone and tenor of the nation much faster than congress and with far more direct implication. As a result, they modify their behavior to get out of the ‘friends and family’ popularity range because failure to do so results in an end similar to NewsWeek Magazine. What’s important is to always read or watch the material with a critical and skeptical eye. They can still cover a story to get ratings while simultaneously not trouncing too hard the hand that feeds. Case in point was the CBS 60 Minutes story early this week on Benghazi.
    3: It’s important to remember that these organizations were the same entities that supported, promoted and vaulted this administration into office. On a personal level they are human too and struggle with the same failing that all humans have; They never want to admit they were wrong. As evidence mounts that they backed and bet on the wrong horse, they begrudgingly must begin the journey back to credibility. But ideology is hard to overcome.
    4: Your last point on a positive force has traction. Journalistic integrity is still a factor. In addition, yesterday the CNN anchor Carol Costello came right out and said that the administration threatens the jobs of those who ‘make Obama look bad.”
    Ultimately, the nation is subjected to propaganda by both sides, with a confused and frustrated public left to feel uninformed and not sure of who is actually right or wrong.
    The best that you can do is exercise critical thinking in all the news you absorb. Listen but more importantly read. Get both sides to the story and formulate your own opinions. Our founders were learned men. They studied and educated themselves not on trivia or drivel but on the motivations of men and what worked and what didn’t in governance. Self-governance requires we do the same.
    Thanks for your interest and insight.
    “America, arise…be counted, be fearless, be fierce, be courageous and speak out… even when your voice shakes.”

    • Thanks Michael, I have simular theories on it all, but you went into much more detail lol. I would also be interested to hear your ideas on civil disobedience. Ive already done some of what you guys mentioned, but I wonder if we can have a more organized grass roots movement to do so instead of relying on the “rest of the population” to just catch up and hope we get there before things go beyond peaceful change. If there is one message from Jack that has always resounded with me, its the idea of individual responsibility, but we alone can’t do it, we need to get others on board as well. Thanks again for your input and show.


  7. Hey Jack,

    Excellent interview! Not sure where Mike (comments not interviewee) is coming from, but I guess actually working in the beast for half my life gives me a different perspective. The statements by Mike (interviewed) were dead on, and some point we will pay the price for letting our government run wild. History is our teacher and it does repeat itself, so you don’t have to look far for the evidence.

  8. About encrypting everything, a good way to start is to download and install “pidgin” followed by “pidgin-encryption”. It interfaces with all the popular messaging systems such as AIM, YM, Facebook, etc. but uses public key encryption on the text, so all that gets stored in the servers is gibberish. It is free and easy to set up.

    I use this to talk to my wife when I’m at work. If the NSA ever successfully hacks this, they’ll get 10’s of thousands of messages like “I love you”, “mwah” and “the cat pooped on the floor” and that’s about it…. I hope they enjoy their “intelligence”.

    Encrypting email, however, is a much bigger problem since it is typically difficult to convince friends and relatives to set up encryption on their end, plus these days most people access their email via browsers, making it difficult to intercept the text to encrypt/decrypt it automatically. I’ve been pondering writing a browser plugin that may assist with this, but there aren’t any good JavaScript encryption libraries I can use.

  9. I Loved this show Jack, very good guest!
    I love it when you great conversations like that!
    Can’t till you have him back!

  10. Question, towards the start of the show the guest states that is built on infrastructure owned by the CIA. What? Last I heard it was hosted in a Verizon data center. He then clarified that it was the operating system it was built on that was “owned” by the CIA. Double what?! I stopped listening at that point. Can anyone explain what was meant by that? Specifically which OS is owned by the CIA?

    • You move too quickly. (Twins) Perhaps by continuing to listen, clarification will come? It could happen. 😉 g’luck.

    • Those who stop listening when they hear something they don’t like or something they disagree with, never learn much.

  11. Really excited to finally hear this show. Mike is a local guy that I really enjoyed hearing on the radio.

    • I be neither. I am simply asking for a little more balance if critical thinking is what Jack is indeed all about. If I were to throw out a statement such as “everything the government does is wrong” and then continue on the discussion without so much of a “hey, wait a minute…maybe would should at least EXPAND on that key assumption”, my discussion is severely limited. You want to talk about wire tapping, spying, coercion, and such? Fine. Start your discussion there. When Michael starts things by saying (paraphrasing) “the America we all grew up with: small government, a sealed border, and individual responsibility”, this sets a very erroneous basis for further logical argument. Remember Roosevelt and the New Deal? Big government has been alive and well in America for a long, long time, and presenting these kind of half-baked assumptions that border paranoia is not going to change that any time soon.

      • What you are is full of shit. Neither of us said at any time, “everything the government does is wrong” during this interview. Oh and FDR? Worst president in the history of the nation.

        Sounds to me like thou suckest upon the tit of thy government!

        Stop paraphrasing Mike! It changes the meaning of what people have said. Again you are simply full of shit, heard some things you didn’t like and now are changing what you didn’t like further to match your argument, which appears to be in support of government. 9 to 1 odds you are in some way directly employed by or supplied by government.

        • Jack,

          Methinks you doth protest too much. You have a lot of good content, but I agree with Mike that there are a lot of assumptions that you make and then gloss over how you go to that point. And, I don’t understand why you have the hostility toward his questions because it doesn’t appear that he’s trolling. In so much of what you do you’re intellectually responsible, but when discussions of government happen, you seem to throw that out the window (not to mention the ridiculous intellectual dishonesty of the “history” segment, but I’ll let that be since I’m in the minority opinion on that one). We like you Jack, we’re not trying to be jerks.

        • First stop stealing my quotes of great quotes and get your own. Secondly I am not protesting I am responding, and again 9 to 1 Mike works for or contracts to government. Not sure on you.

          I also don’t have “hostility towards questions” I was not responding to questions but misstatements of facts. Such as “you said xyz” when we did not. I am not hostile in such responses but I don’t try to make sure the person who has changed what was said feels all warm as fuzzy and like he just earned a free ride on a rainbow farting unicorn.

          It is quite simple, when it comes to this massive data collection on every single American, Michael and I and most people who do think critically understand NO GOOD comes from it for you to have YOUR data collected. The people running this nation today are criminals and traitors to the very constitution they took an oath to. The entire machine is one of a systematic all be it slow march to enslavement. I have presented factual evidence of this for years, evidence that no one can ever refute, no one has even tried.

          All you get is end around arguments about statements being “too blanket”. Frankly if you feel there is any good coming from the direction of government at this point, I don’t know that I an help you, it means you are still addicted to the lies of false patriotism and false dichotomy.

          Name one action taken by the Federal Government in the past 10 years that has been consistent in anyway with the restoration of the tattered remains of the constitution, JUST ONE. When you do, I am willing to accept that my statements might be too blanket. So just one between 2003-2013 taken by the FEDERAL not a state government that has done one thing to restore constitutional protections or constitutionally guaranteed rights, just one.

          If you’re stuck, try the good bad list and start naming ways they have further encroached upon the Constitution, may be it will jog your memory.

        • For the record, I am not “sucking” on the teat of the government, nor directly employed by the government, nor supplied by the government more so than anyone else here. Is that how this discussion is to be framed: anyone who chooses to disagree with you or your guest with a considered argument (even if you do not agree with it) is now a political/economic/social parasite?

          You always hedge your permaculture answers with “it depends” because you acknowledge the complex and inter-dependent character of natural systems. It is indeed one of your strengths of intellectual character to acknowledge that simplified solutions and answers to complex questions are of little value. It is a real pity that in this political podcast, you did not display the same character: the world of humans can be just as complex and inter-dependent as the natural one, if not more. All I ask is that WE ALL take a moment to consider some of those base assumptions and very seriously ponder whether they hold true enough to support the weight of some pretty serious statements and arguments that are placed on them.

        • Well Mike, first I do not believe you when you say you are not in some way directly depending on government. Perhaps you don’t get a tax payer funded check directly but the level of defense you offer to the undefensible shows me that your fear is that government will be seen for what it is.

          I won’t bother to defend my position further with you here, I have said all I have to say in other comments below. I also don’t say that you are dependent on government, (I did notice how you covered it up with “more so than anyone else here”) because you disagree but because of the how and the why and the reasoning you disagreed with. Specifically where you said, “I know what you meant and my statement stands” follow by the way you took what I and Michale said and “paraphrased it” in ways that changed the entire meaning of what was said.

          Again likely you are still caught in the belief that there is a political solution to this. That our government is basically made of good people in a bad system or some such nonsense. Look man, it doesn’t matter if 90% of people in government are good, hard working, honest people. Because if 10% control any organization (and that is the number by the way) the organization does what the 10% command. Frankly even with that the number of traitors in government exceeds 10%.

          I also notice you totally ignored my request for one thing the government has done to restore constitutional protections in the last 10 years? If one were to think critically about that, one would think likely you can’t think of one.

      • Mike, during this interview Jack and I covered a lot of ground. I can tell you that I’ve done hundreds of interviews around the nation and most of them are pretty brief and address one specific point.

        Jack was gracious enough to provide a substantial amount of time. In that time, I tried to bring out a lot of points that very well may have not been as thoroughly covered as you would have liked. I can assure you that there is ample material that backs the assertions, points and arguments I’ve made in this discussion.

        Trying to sum up years worth of investigation, evaluation, reporting and exposure even in an hour and a half is difficult to do. I would be happy to have a discussion with you any time that is convenient to spend more time on specific areas you have concerns. Feel free to email me at mike (at) I’ve also addressed them in far greater detail in many cases in my daily radio program where I can get into the ‘weeds’ a bit more.

        It’s understandable that many folks don’t like to admit that we’ve, as a nation, lost control of our government. Because with that admission, comes the responsibility to do something about it, and most of us feel expressly powerless in the face of this deterioration of all that we’ve put our faith in.

        The goal of the discussion was to alert folks, give them the basic nudge to take the information presented and do their own due diligence and investigation. Using their own critical thinking skills, to review both sides of the topics and when they’ve gathered sufficient information, make their own personal informed decisions about the issues and solutions.

        By the responses I’ve read, I’d say that the goal was achieved.

  12. To follow Mike’s ‘take’ on this discussion in early post . . . I did not hear critical thinking processes from concept descriptions to mobilizing actions. I listened to all 90 + minutes and missed any critical facts linked to judicial actions- like Citizens United allowing for full overflow of money into controlling ‘our’ congress.
    I would link that event = demonstrates feeding the beast.
    And what about occupy folks doing non-violent resistance to the ‘beast’ of Wall Street.
    As an example I liken the flow of money into politics – after Citizens United (2010) – at such a rate as to blow out the sill and ruins the system rebuilding.

    Mr. Evans criticizing and bringing like minded nuggets into the discussion was the derailing of true critical thinking. People are not gonna get bold on their own.
    They are gonna set up their pack and pack order first. I didn’t hear open inclusion from the guest Mr. Evans. I did hear his agenda.

    • rdcde.. Judicial actions to prevent the descent into authoritarianism at this point is wishful thinking. The courts, including SCOTUS, are completely compromised. The principles of jurisprudence left the building a long time ago. Federal courts owe their allegiance to the federal gov’t. They are conflicted.

      Our founders well understood the dangers of a central government that garners complete control and then uses the courts to support a given conclusion. A mere 50 years from our nations declaration of freedom from tyranny, Thomas Jefferson warned, “It is too evident, that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic.” (Jefferson to WB Giles – 1825)

      Edmund Burke is famously quoted, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” And yet we have, as students of history, a long trail of empirical proofs of the path down which our national government strides. Passing laws that violate the tenor and intent of our constitution and then upholding them via courts who rule in conflict of interest, or approve administrative agency rules and regulations in conflict is of no consequence. The laws and agencies that promulgate and regulate them, are themselves in opposition to those rights of the people. A right that is unalienable can no more be ‘regulated’ than can matter and anti-matter occupy the same space. Life and Death are diametric opposites. Liberty and Tyranny cannot simultaneously exist. Freedom and regulation cannot co-exist.

      The issue of providing corporations with the unalienable rights of living persons to meet an agenda of usurpation of the rule of law can never be legitimate. But the Constitution and the rights declared unalienable will not enforce themselves. And asking courts to do so is equivalent to asking the master to stop the beatings, which acknowledges and approves his unlawful right to do so in the first place.

      WE The People are the final arbiters. It is up to us to collectively stand against tyranny with our words, actions and even our very lives. That is not something the dumbed down and entitlement addicted population of this nation is prepared to do.

      As an action, I would like to see all political groups outside of the democrat and republican duopoly pool resources and seek out qualified, vetted individuals to form a ‘stand-by’ continuation gov’t. Nature hates a void and regardless of what the catalyst, a collapse of national gov’t will require a replacement. Pooled money can be used to take out full page ads in every major newspaper/magazine and online presence in the nation, “Seeking Qualified Candidates For The New Republic Of The United States”. These candidates would sign a contract enumerating, among other things, that they will serve a single term, not accept any lobbying monies, act in strict accordance with the constitution, verifiably seal our borders, return to the treasury the financial responsibilities of the nation, eliminate all federal administrative agencies not constitutionally authorized, repeal of the 17th Amendment and numerous other items too long to list here. It would be enforceable via a waiver clause of ‘liquidated damages’ of immediate removal from office for any infraction. It would be a form of a peaceful reset button.

      As for your last statement of agenda, I’d be curious to know what agenda you believe you heard.

    • Shane I like this, I like it a LOT. People who are willing use this need only set a password and rock on. Said passwords could be in a list and change weekly. LOL, you could even use old “book code” with it.

      Lots of fun to be had, cut and past stories about cats and rainbows, send em to fellow patriots that don’t even bother to decrypt them, they already know but the snoopers at the NSA don’t. Fun stuff.

  13. Nice episode, but I feel compelled to comment on one small aspect. Michael Evans made consistent reference to critical thinking, but I don’t think he’s totally consistent in this regard.

    Jack and Michael both spoke of the “law of the land” and yet they both railed against certain laws and government activities. If we use our critical thinking skills, you can’t have this both ways. Either there is no true “law of the land” or these questionable government activities are in fact included in the “law of the land”. We can’t have a system that both simultaneously represents this “law” and yet is breaking the “law”. Therefore this “law of the land” doesn’t appear to be a real and tangible thing. It would seem this is merely an excuse used by people when they want to justify their actions. After all, does someone ever say it’s the “law of the land” while doing something good or is it only when they’re doing something to hurt someone else?

    I will definitely be checking out Michaels programs (hopefully podcast format is available).

    • Um no, it just doesn’t work that way. THE LAW of the land is the United States Constitution, not whatever any politician can sell the current herd of sheeple on being okay.

      No citizen is doing his or her duty if they sit idly by while our Constitution is stripped, shit on and ignored and says simply, “oh but it is the law of the land”.

      Additionally did you hear us say to break said laws? I will answer for you, no, we didn’t.

      Further, did either of us infer that there was any political solution at this point? I will answer for you, again no. In fact both of us said there was NO POLITICAL solution and did so many times.

      The truth is while I like Michael and think he is switched on, many times I could hear right wing talking points creeping into his words. Rather then argue about those (trust me I was tempted) I decided to stick to the topic at hand, one anyone paying attention should agree with.

      Our nation is now run by men and women who place their power above the rights of the people they claim to serve. A nation run by the largest corporations and banks that have ever existed in history, with the power to legally counterfeit money and thereby suck value from the wealth of the people at will. These people are now waging a war on any and all private commerce, taking control of private pension accounts, private banking accounts and beginning to implement capital controls via the corportacracy.

      This same government has forced billions of dollars of tax payer retirement dollars into US Government debt, did it without even passing a law and likely if you have money in a 401K they did it to you, and if you know about it, likely it is only because I told you.

      The same government that has done everything above is now building dossiers on every singe American citizen. They have the ability to know everyone you talked to, everyone you sent an email to, everywhere you spent a dime, every time you used a credit card, every time you crossed a toll both, etc.

      They are now using the states as proxies to implement a system where every mile you drive and the locations there of are to be tracked. They want cash to be made illegal within 10 years. The Secretary of Agriculture just said publicly the biggest reason the government is concerned about losing the rural and farming populations is they provide 40% of our military personnel.

      Any of you saying my statements yesterday were not based on critical thinking are the ones who are not thinking critically.

      There is NO GOOD coming from our current government, I of course mean that at the top level and directionally. Of course there are people in goverment doing their best, most have no clue and are cogs in the machines.

      Some have sworn that they have a line they shall not cross, I hope they keep their words. As Michael said, with the data they have they can honestly leverage anyone. If you are clean they threaten to hurt someone you care about, if they can’t do that they make it appear that you are dirty.

      Is all that too blanket for anyone, seriously?

      Would some of you had been happier if I pointed out how much Ronald Regan did to advance socialism or that marijuana absolutely does 100% have medical uses? Would it have been better that Michael spent an hour discussing the 10% of issues that we disagree on or that we discuss the fact that right now you are being enslaved and most people are too stupid to know it much less respond to it.

      Again if you paid attention, our solution was passive and peaceful resistance.

      • I agree with you sentiment and again it was a great episode. Don’t take my comments the wrong way, I respect yours views and you produce the best podcast in this area.

        My only point of contention is whether the Constitution (4 pieces of paper) makes this place great or if it’s the people themselves. If the pieces of paper can’t protect us without good men, then maybe the key ingredient are those men and not the paper. My guess is that the ink on that paper might be arranged differently and still there would be a good community wherever good men are.

        • To both Ale and Jack –
          The answer won’t be found in the Constitution.
          It’s in the Declaration of Independence.

          While the Constitution was amazing, it wasn’t perfect. It wasn’t strong enough to shackle the government the way the Founders hoped.
          I don’t think there could *ever* exist a Constitution that could do that.
          Why? It’s simple: Because you can ask three people what one phrase means, and get five different answers. (Seven different answers if one of those three is a lawyer.)

          But the Declaration gives us the solution – when the government steps outside of its bounds, it is the people’s duty to throw it off and set things straight.
          Then the cycle begins anew, and eventually when the government starts becoming an oligarchy and oppressing the people, it’s time to throw it off again.

          The longer the wait, the weaker the people become; the more power the government hoards unto itself, the more it disarms (both politically and physically) the citizenry so that the citizenry is actually incapable of throwing it off.

          That’s what we’ve been seeing for our entire lifetimes. We’re running out of time.

    • AleToledo. The Law of the Land issue is quite clear. Our Constitution is the law of the land. Any law made by any congress, or worse yet, any Administrative Agency, must comport with the Constitution. “We define a republic to be a government of laws, and not of men.” John Adams 1775

      In the resolutions decrying the Alien & Sedition Acts for which Americans were imprisoned for simply derogatory free speech against gov’t officials, the founders were very clear. “..that [if] the general govt is the exclusive judge of the extent of the powers delegated to it, [we] stop nothing short of despotism; since the discretion of those who administer the gov’t, and not the constitution, would be the measure of their [own] powers.” and;

      “If the alien and sedition laws are unconstitutional, they are not law, and of course of no force.” James Barbour – Sec’y of War

      Richard Henry Lee (VA) stated, “In other words, this is a strictly limited and federal gov’t. When a questions arises with respect to the legality of any power, we must ask, ‘is it enumerated in the Constitution?’.. It is otherwise arbitrary and unconstitutional.”

      Theophilus Parsons, who turned down John Adams request to be Attorney General to instead be Chief Justice of MA said, “An Act of usurpation is not obligatory – it is not law. Any man may be justified in his resistance to it. [If] he be considered as a criminal by the General Government – yet [then] his own fellow citizens alone can convict him. They are his jury – and if they pronounce him innocent, not all the powers of congress can hurt him… [even] if the supposed law which he resisted was an act of [congresses] usurpation.”

      My point is simply this, any law made by congress which is outside of it’s limited and express constitutional boundaries is no law at all. Example; the ACA or Obamacare compels every citizen to engage in commerce. One can find zero constitutional support for that premise. Worse yet, the administrative agencies who developed the rules to which we’re subjected declare as a disclaimer that by submitting your application (under duress) you have no privacy and your information submitted can be used for investigation and prosecution. That is an example of one modern law forcing you to abandon your 4th Amendment right to privacy and , your 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination enumerated as Natural and God given unalienable laws not to be trampled by men. That is a dichotomy that cannot be resolved except by the use of the foundation of the constitution as the precedent document.

      Our founders also have a lot to say about a supreme court approving of unconstitutional law. Specifically the consensus was that SCOTUS is not the final arbiter of law related to constitutional matters because it was a part of the federal gov’t itself and could not be impartial. I’d delve into that here but would need pages to address it.

      I would encourage anyone to read the actual writings of our founders via their personal letters and specifically related to the constitution, the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers. These documents were precisely how they explained their intent and reasoning to the public to convince them of the benefits of ratifying the document. They wrote it. Take their interpretation over a court or a self-serving politician.

      • Well I’m definitely going to be listening to your podcasts, so don’t think a little disagreement hurts my feelings, it actually pushes me to learn more. You brought up critical thinking, so I just ask for open and fair discussion on issues, without preconceived notions.

        First, I agree that SCOTUS has no role in lawmaking, it’s not in the constitution and was simply a power they picked up along the way. That what anyone seeking power does, they do what they want until someone stops them. Nobody has stopped SCOTUS, so they are what they are today because men failed to act to stop them.

        Second, sure there are laws outside the perceived authority of the paper we call the constitution. However why didn’t the paper stop them? If the paper is so holy and special as you make it out to be, then I would have expected it to have been more of an impediment to their actions. It didn’t seem to slow them down in the least bit though. So I ask you to step back for a second to ponder what that paper is offering us that good men can’t achieve without it? Remember when Adams argued for paper over men, he was opposing Jefferson, who believed the opposite. I won’t put my faith in paper, I only put it in men.

        • There is nothing magical about the paper; it is up to the people to uphold what it says. However, I wouldn’t put my faith in men either; they have proven to wipe their asses with the constitution every chance they get. Examples of them standing up and refusing to violate it are very rare.

          The government will never voluntarily restrain itself. Neither will the SCOTUS do the restraining for us… that is also part of the federal government, so they will side with the federal government against the will of the people whenever they think it is advantageous to them. The judges are appointed by the president, for crying out loud… how unbiased is that?

          There’s only one group that can ever restrain an oppressive government, and that is the people who are the subject of that oppression. They will have the proper motivation for wanting to do something about it. The feds, however, have no such motivation.

          There are many possible ways of offering such resistance. Ideally, the states themselves should tell the feds to pound sand whenever they step out of their bounds. There has been a little of that lately, but overall they usually consider themselves on the same side as the feds thus side with them against the people. County sheriffs and other police, town governments, etc. can also offer resistance and refuse to go along with unconstitutional demands. The last line is the individual, which gets a lot trickier since all levels of government are quite eager to make an example out of anyone who refuses to go along with the unconstitutional orders.

  14. The above is why I don’t even like to discuss politics any longer. A man will defend to the death that which he depends upon even if he is defending a tyrannical system.

    I shouldn’t even bother responding, because anyone defending the current actions of our government is not yet ready to accept the fact, the absolute fact that the system they defend is not only evil but dying and both of those things will bring great pain upon the people of this nation.

  15. Great show. When Mike quoted Winston Churchill at 1.12.22 I got goosebumps. So hard to get people to understand that every time we kick the can down the road the can gets heavier, and one day we are going to break our foot on it. The time to act and get engaged is now.

  16. I’m also curious about the statement about being built on an OS owned by the CIA, if I heard that correctly. I started to email Michael privately but thought others might also be interested. Sorry if I’m being dense …

    And, not to impugn all government workers, but the command and control attitude is starting to filter down to the lower levels. This morning I had an encounter with a county worker that was needlessly unpleasant … there is a low water crossing on my way to work, and we had quite a lot of rain last night. They place the road closure barriers around a curve from the water crossing so you can’t see it from the barrier; they routinely leave the barriers up for hours after the water has gone down, so those of us in the area go around the barrier and check it out for ourselves. This morning I did that, and met said county worker who became belligerent and threatened to give me a ticket for going around the barrier. His concern obviously wasn’t for public safety but for failure to obey the sign. Even sadder, I thought, was at work later I told some co-workers about the run-in, and one in particular started making excuses for him – he has a hard job, he may have been up early, etc. Just another example of petty tyranny and the fact that many people are predisposed to put up with it.

  17. Great show! I think you and Evan missed a 3rd group and probably describes a good percentage of “preppers”
    The current system will fail/change. 60%+ are totally asleep and won’t wake up until it’s over. For 20%+ the pain will become so great that we will see Egypt style protests that will bring about regime change. In between (I think) there are a fair number who are prepping, trying to become self-sufficient enough that they, their immediate neighbors… maybe their neighborhood can weather the storm that is coming. Perhaps not in the comfort we are accustomed to but we won’t be part of a bread riot like Egypt had.

  18. Mike Evans- I will re listen – alone. Last night I was in small sibling group.

    The ‘agenda’ I thought I was sensing from the conversation flow was the
    ‘NUDGE’. In a follow up comments you said your intention was to nudge people.
    The last time I heard that word used was in a rant from Glen Beck.

    Again I’ll re listen but this really isn’t an easy conversational format. Not my intention to be controversial. I truly have always appreciate the broad spectrum of opinions that Jack interviews.
    I also appreciate your and Jack’s request for comments.
    Civil disagreement can be constructive and liberating.
    I have no trust in the bought and sold in congress and obviously also not Supreme Court rulings Money = Speech.
    Unlimited money = unlimited speech. Fascism in action.
    Can we agree that ‘get the money out’ is something of a non-violent approach to reclaiming our We the People. ?
    Thanks for participating awake.

    • rdcde… The “Nudge” issue is not a Glenn Beck coined phrase. Actually it is a phrase used by Cass Sunstein in a book he co-authored. He believes that social migration on given issues can be accomplished by ‘incentive’s’ given to the population as a Pavlovian style system to move mass opinion. My use of the term does not coincide with his ideas or any reference Beck may have made. Frankly I don’t listen to Beck that much.

      Nudge as I use the term is to get folks to awaken from the doldrums of sleep. Our nation is rapidly descending into dangerous and unknown places that don’t bode well for the citizenry. I’m trying to ‘nudge’ folks to act, not merely change their opinions or belief systems. As more and more people are awakening to the clanging alarm of the klaxon, they need some direction and focus. Our situation is exigent and we can’t afford to give everyone time to rub the sleep from their eyes, yawn, scratch a little and slowly shuffle forward. We can improve our chances by providing a guiding hand and direction. Giving them information and a plan of action that doesn’t require a lifetime of study to develop.

      If we help them to stand on the shoulders of those who are aware, they achieve action sooner. Programs like Jack’s where they can learn about self-sufficiency, preparation and self-reliance are vital, not only to their survival, but so that they can help and assist us in grass roots efforts to stop the political slide before the momentum is too strong to stop.

      What I appreciate about this discussion and thread is the open mindedness of the commenters. I’m excited about the pace with which folks are becoming alert. Many folks don’t like to talk politics, and I get that. It’s too controversial, divisive and emotional. In actuality, the reason is because most folks don’t have opinions formulated for themselves. They want to ‘buy’ one from someone they like or agree with. That creates a shallow base of understanding that won’t hold up under a well-reasoned, logical, historically based argument. If everyone was required to read and learn (and understand) the ideas our founders espoused, a lot less controversy, division and emotion would be involved.

      Thanks for your thoughtful comments and ideas. I truly enjoy a discussion where everyone enters with a willingness to look at issues in a way they may not be accustomed or agree upon. We get a whole lot more done that way too!

  19. Jack I could have listened to this for three hours. You don’t have to stop a good thing! Lol

  20. I enjoyed part of this interview but moving (illegal immigration) is not a crime. It is a violation of the rights of the individual to say that they can’t rent or sell or conduct other commercial interactions just because the State says that they shouldn’t be here or there. It is the collectivist (statist) mentality to say that people as a collective can control other people’s property or even property that hasn’t be improved.

    That doesn’t come from emotion. That comes from logic and reason. Now maybe from a liberal it would have emotional roots but not from a voluntaryist.

    • @jon and in a world WITH OUT a welfare state I would agree. If the US were a voluntarist nation, I would have no issues with anyone coming here. Sadly it isn’t, the concept of open borders in our current system is about as valid as the concept of say leaving your car unlocked in a down town metro area full of stuff and believing stealing is wrong so no one will do it.

      Right now this nation is one where those who do the least are fed by force by those that do the most. Open borders can’t work in such a system. I know you would say well that is wrong too and it shouldn’t happen, but it does, it is reality.

  21. Some technological solutions that are coming down the pipeline (or already here):

    Pirate Browser -> The distributed internet. Their next version of the browser is supposed to use Bit Torrent to create a distributed form of the internet. This will make it so websites cannot be shutdown. This solution would actually make the web faster too.

    Open Garden -> Another way to make the internet distributed but this time the connections.

    Ron Paul Curriculum -> Home educating our children so they don’t become passive slaves of the state. I think it is interesting how Paul agrees that the solution isn’t political and that political solutions are basically a waste of time (I don’t think he said it that way though). The interview was on Thomas Woods’ Youtube channels recently (the last one I think).

  22. Michael Evans, thank you for this interview and for participating so thoughtfully in the responses. Count me as one of your new listeners.

    I have a question I’ve been wanting to bounce off Jack… maybe here I can get brief comments from both of you… It seems odd to me that a significant part of our out-of-control gov’t wants to control and disarm us, while at the same time concealed carry rights continue to get better (more permissive) and more widespread. These two things seem to be at odds on the surface, would you please offer any insights? This might be a good topic for your next interview with Jack, and I second the comment above about time not being an issue when a really good conversation is taking place.

    • Doug_ks.. My take on the question is that the national gov’t does indeed want to disarm the citizenry. They also have no respect for the 10th Amendment or States Rights. (Same reason we fought the civil war.. It wasn’t about slavery)

      The national gov’t also believes it has authority over the states, which was never the intent of either the states or the designers of our governmental system. They expressly and explicitly declared the states to be co-equal with national gov’t on most national issues, subservient only in those delegated powers and authorities and superior in all other respects.

      The dichotomy comes when people have close access to gov’t as designed (within states) and less access to influence the policies of national gov’t in DC. Their will and desires are more closely reflected. Eliminating arms in the hands of citizens is a national desire because in order to control the entire nation, they have to emasculate state authority and the individual rights of citizens.

      Again, I would point to the statement of Jefferson, “It is too evident, that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves ALL functions foreign and domestic.” (Jefferson to WB Giles – 1825) (emphasis mine)

      Concealed carry is almost exclusively a state by state initiative. Which is proof that the gov’t closest to the people most accurately reflects their needs and desires. On occasion, someone in the national side opens the issue of universal carry similar to a drivers license. It always dies a tragic death because those states that have the most ‘control & dominion’ gov’t get active and kill it. You’ll note that those states always have the highest crime & murder rates coupled with the strongest anti-gun positions. John Lott has done a lot to expose the truth on this issue and I recently saw a new Harvard study that confirmed that both domestically and internationally, less guns equals higher crime rates.

      In short, individual or even groups of states even if they had the desire can never obtain domination over the nation. The only entity with that capability is the federal gov’t. Therefore, it is the national gov’t that seeks to bar citizens from the means to defend themselves and resist tyranny. They, and only they, have the means and motive to disarm and enslave.

      If this topic is of significant interest to you, feel free to contact me at mike at and perhaps we can have a discussion related to it. It’s difficult to address so many elements of such a complex issue in a simple post. Great question and clearly a controversial issue. Thanks

  23. Jack, this show was about the problem. It would be great to have a show or even just a segment about solutions they layman can do. ( I know that’s your thing) There were a few suggestions here already, but not much details. Give us some options, tell us what os they can run on, tell us what they do and dont do, and give some easy to follow (hand holding) instruction that the average go can follow. I run linux but I don’t have a degree in computers. Some of the info I find when I’m searching forums to add new hardware or software will make my head explode. etc. For example everyone recomends tor. Well, I tried it, but it’s so stripped down that many sites don’t work. Most youtube vid, any java sites don’t run. It trips security on any secure site like banking, paypal, ebay, amazon etc. Tor says not to load any plug ins because they can unmask you.. So for me it’s just not practical, there’s not much can do with it.

    Anyway, Zerohedge had a pretty good article a few months ago. It breaks things down nice and simple. The download link is on the bottom of the page.

    I tried the orweb for my phone and gitterbot to im my son’s ipod through gmail. The orweb gives me the same problems as tor. I can do most surfing, but I cant download the tsp podcasts to my phone. the popup “download or play now” window never appears for me, so I don’t use it. The gitterbot trips the suspitious sign on prevented security on gmail. gmail thinks I’m in a different country everyday and doesn’t like it. I also can’t seem to stay logged into gitterbot on my laptop, cellphone or the boy’s ipod, so I dont use it.

    They one thing that does work for me is text secure. It replaces the stock text message software on android. It sends and rec messages from standard phones, but it knows when the other person also has textsecure and promps you to use encryption. You need to verify a block of letters with the other person, but you only need to do it once. You can use unverified encryption, it should be secure, but it’s possible someone could be eavesdropping (if I understand it correctly). It works so simple that I stuck it on my wife’s phone and she’s been using it w/o problems. The only issue or problem with it is that you are prompted to enter your password everytime you restart your phone and that’s not much trouble at all. So it’s a perfect option. turn on phone, enter password and everything works just like it should, but it only coveres text messages. We need to find some email and browser options that are as user freindly. And I guess we should be changing password on a regular basis. Otherwise they only need to brute force us once. A new password everyweek means they need to start over every week, right?

    Jack, I’ll repost this to the msb section to msb section in hopes you’ll see it since I’m late to this party.

    • btw, my tinfoil hat is on just tight enough to believe that all,most or atleast some of this software is produced by them. They can market it as secure and use it to collect all the juicy info in one convient place, while they keep a master key to unlock it all with the push of a button. Hell, If I were at the helm of the pirate ship, that’s exactly what I would do. I guess you could go through source code to find out, but that stuff is above my paygrade.

    • TOR has its uses, but your list of issues with it indicates you are using it where you shouldn’t. It is okay for random searches and browsing (where no login information is required at the sites you browse to), as well as connecting over SSL to a special email or forum account where you can’t be identified by the info you had supplied to that site (you need to have entered fake info into the site when you signed up). The latter is what dissidents may need to do in order to communicate outside their country without getting caught.

      But you don’t want to connect to banks or other heavily regulated accounts of yours with TOR. The TOR exit node jumps every 10 minutes, making it look like you’re a hacker coming into the banking system. Besides, the government already knows everything about what’s on the destination system, so hiding your traffic to your heavily regulated checking account is utterly useless. Even with facebook, why would you connect to it with TOR? You probably supplied your real name in Facebook and connected to your real friends there too; the NSA already knows your entire Facebook contents and who you are. So, they don’t need to monitor the Internet traffic to Facebook to learn what you’re doing there.

      For a pay-based service, I would recommend TorGuard for $4 or $5 a month. It creates a secure VPN and your exit node won’t jump around; all traffic will appear to come from the country you choose. And it’ll be much faster and functional than TOR. Still, I wouldn’t connect to my checking account through it.

      I hadn’t tried Text Secure app. I just checked, and they don’t support my Android tablet. It could have some promise though. I like pidgin with the pidgin-encryption plugin for secure messaging. However, it is primary a PC based system. I tried an Android app but it was not capable of connecting to pidgin on a PC.

  24. One idea for email encryption might be:
    http://www.slate. com/blogs/ future_tense/ 2013/10/30/ dark_mail_ alliance_ lavabit_silent_ circle_team_ up_to_create_ surveillance. html

  25. Yet another great podcast. This is the most I’ve been able to tolerate national politics in about a month. I’m often too angry, depressed and heartbroken.

    I believe Jack and Michael Evans are spot on, this can’t be fixed by electing any political messiahs. But I don’t see this as an either-or, but a “both and”.

    I like the civil disobedience, but I don’t think our options are exhausted politically too. Mark Levin’s latest book (The Liberty Amendments) offers 11 proposed constitutional amendments to fix the systemic problems, that can (with much effort) be passed in bypass of Congress, by the states.

    Can’t wait to hear more from Jack and Michael. Massive respect.

    • AJ_Anderson… Thanks for your input. I also feel the depression and heartbreak for our nation and our way of life as we watch it disintegrate before our very eyes.

      As to Levin’s book, I’ve read it. I would love to see it happen. However my cynical side tells me that money interests will rule the process. Even in state assemblies or legislatures, there is no end to the corruption. It may not be as bold or blatant as the fed side, but it definitely exists. A Con-Con opens the door to some very dangerous ground. In order for it to work in our favor, we would have to have some level of transparency or a caveat that every county vote upon the measures county by county or some other manageable way to protect ourselves from the corrupting influence of the elitists and political class as well as the corpritocracy.

      The idea of massive peaceful civil disobedience can be applied here as well but in the reverse. I would just be extraordinarily cautious about the rules for such massive change. If the Republicans and Democratic parties are involved, make the rules or participate functionally in any official way, I am dead set against it.

  26. a list of alternatives to prism listed companies:
    I like the just use basic encryption on everything idea.

    Regarding Tor, many believe it is a way to protect one’s identity on the internet. I think it is a honeypot. It has been documented to have been created by US Naval intelligence. It requires infrastructure the costs money to run and I can’t follow the money…so I am then relying on the ‘goodness’ of those spending money to provide it. Yeah, right. It may do nothing more than basic encryption and make your internet experience that of dial-up speeds. Protecting your identity on the internet is in the same world with flying unicorns, by design.

  27. At the FSP Liberty Forum, I picked up a copy of Tom Woods’ book “Nullification”. Definitely a relevant book to read here.

    • Going Galt… Excellent book. I love Tom Woods and his work. He also offers superb classes on the constitution, lectures, great writings and tons of information free of charge on his website here:

      I would encourage anyone with an interest in understanding our history and the true desires of our framers to visit the site. Take a few classes or watch a few live lectures or discussions. Do it with a few friends or family members as a group. At the end, have a reasoned discussion with all participants on the topic(s) so that each benefits from the observations and retention of the others.

      If 5 people view an accident, you’ll get 5 different takes on what they saw. Same goes for this format. Best aspect of this is that everyone walks away with a new base of knowledge, had heard the pro/con views of others and has a point of reference in their ‘kit’ to help them formulate opinion.

      Awesome post Galt! Thanks for bringing up Tom’s work. I should have remarked it earlier.

  28. Jack, great show man as always. This particular one is my favorite, what a fresh breath of Patriotic air. This is what we need more people like you and Mike to let Americans know what this corrupted government of ours is doing. I can’t say that it’s every single one of them is corrupt or have all the bad intentions. They are also watching The president finish the sprint and they have a front row seat in this sick game of theirs. I was born in Romania, lived here for 26 years now. I’m also a proud military member of the United States Air Force for 15.5 years now, I love this country. My allegiance belongs to USA. I consider myself an American because I believe in our country, believe in our Constitution and that it will always belong to us to control not a foreign or domestic tyrannt. As Mike said, it doesn’t have to be a violent revolution or a violent act to change our country and give it back to the people, but if it has to be violent, I will endure the cold, hunger, sacrifice it is what it is and will just have to keep my chin up, fight hard not to be enslaved. Thank you Jack and Mike. Long Live the Republic!!