Episode-46- The Pistol Caliber Carbine in Survial Planning
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Today we discuss a variety of concepts around “pistol caliber carbines” with an over view of various options and models from several manufacturers. Tune in today to hear…
- What makes a “carbine” a carbine vs. a rifle
- The advantage of light weight
- The advantage of inexpensive practice afforded by pistol calibers
- The lesson of “the man that carries only one gun”
- Practicing and striving for excellence
- The ease of learning to shoot a pistol caliber carbine well
- The advantage of a “lighter report” from pistol caliber carbines
- The advantage of small, lighter ammo
- Thoughts on the Marlin 1894
- Thoughts on the Hi-Point 995 and 4095
- Thoughts on the Kel-Tec Sub-2000
- The Ruger Deefield Carbine
- The amazing NEF Handi Rifle (not a true carbine but many of the same advantages)
- Thoughts on calibers including 9 mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum and more
- 40 S&W plus carbine length barrel yields 10mm pistol balastics
- A special very quite load for 44 magnum carbines
Links and Resources for Today’s Show
- Hi-Point Firearms
- The Hi-Point Forum– Good Folks “gun snobs” are not welcome
- The Marlin 1894
- Marlin Forum
- NEF Handi Rifle
- NEF Handi Rifle Discussion Group – Excellent Group of folks, good info on the Handi Rifle
- NEF Barrel Program
- The Kel-Tec SUB-2000
- Ruger Deerfield Carbine – They do still make it, exceptional gun!
My Special 44 Special Load for Quiet Carbine Use
This is a 44 Special Load from an older Lee Manual. Do NOT reduce any further!
300 Grain Lead Bullet
Standard Large Pistol Primer
9.8-11.5 grains of H4227
I settled on an even 10 Grains of Powder. In a 20 Inch barreled 1894 Marlin 44 Magnum it is quieter then most Break Barrel Pellet guns and will penetrate 7 inches of solid pressure treated lumber at 25 yards and is accurate to about 50 yards before the low velocity takes over and drop becomes extreme.
Similar loads should be possible for rounds like,
357 Mag – Try light 38 Spc Loads
45 Colt – Try Cowboy Action Loads to start out
Remember to comment, chime in and tell us your thoughts, this podcast is one man’s opinion, not a lecture or sermon. Also please enter our listener appreciation contest and help spread the word about our show.
Great show today. This is a topic that I’ve been considering a lot lately. My brother and I go to the range on a regular basis. He recently finished building his AR-15 .45 caliber rifle and the ability to buy one type of round for his rifle and hand gun has made a big impression on me. I own a .357 and have been considering a lever-action rifle, so I appreciate hearing your opinion on that specific model. I’ve checked-out the Marlin site, but do you have any other companies in mind?
Unfortunately, I just bought a Remington 12 GA, so I’m going to have to wait on this new one!
Great show Jack, thanks. A couple of show suggestions:
1. A tactical gun show (how to use guns on the move in distressed situations, how to use guns in your home in distressed situations, etc.)
2. A water show (how to carry on the move, how to filter on the move, how to store at home, different filtration systems, etc.).
I’d have to agree with you on the advantages of pistol caliber carbines. As a primary defense weapon, I tend to lean toward my AKs, but I wouldn’t hesitate to grab my Hi-Point 995 carbine in a SHTF situation.
I’m a big fan of carbines. I have a Mosin-Nagant M44 and a Hi-Point 995. The Hi-Points are fun because you can build them up with accessories at a fraction of the cost of accessorising an AR-15. Here’s some links to my pimped out Hi-Point.
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6632/hipoint1ib9.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5427/hipoint2hf4.jpg
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2154/hipoint4oj1.jpg
That’s with an ATI stock and some other toys on it! I agree with your assessment of Hi Point and their customer service; they’re not pretty, but they’re great for the money and they stand by their product. Another benefit to the KelTec Sub 2000 that is attractive to many buyers is that there are different versions that accept Glock, S&W and Beretta magazines. So if a shooter has a one of these brands of pistols, they can get a carbine in the same caliber that accepts the same mags. I’m sure someone has already gotten on your case about calling it a “clip” instead of a “magazine”, so I won’t be that guy and rub it in! Good podcast, I think I’ve got some new candidates for my gun collection!
Jack,
Another great show!
Never considered a carbine but your show opened my eyes to the possibilities. Read up on High Point and am very impressed. Sent inquiry to them to ascertain possibility of mfg .45ACP Carbine in the future.
Regards,
Daniel
HAAaaaaah! Magazine, Magazine, Magazine! Not Clip.
Sorry, personal trainer issue. I make guys do pushups when they say the C-word.
Other than that, good show, I like that you spent time on the Hi-Point; a very under-rated firearm. My PD used the Hi-Point in 9mm for about 2 years until we were finally approved for the AR platform.
Also, a small correction about PC lever actions; the .357 suffers from over-stablization in the longer barrel lengths and it actually looses down range velocity. An 18 inch is about the max you want to go with that caliber, they get the best results out of the 16 inch barrels.
Thanks for the shows.
@doc66,
Well I stopped doing push ups on command on June 13, 1993, the effective date of my ETS from the U.S. Army. (grin)
You are correct of course that the proper term is magazine, when you grow up hunting squirrels with a Model 25 Marlin in rural PA though, it is always going to be a “clip” at least on occasion.
I do understand though, I keep snakes and I have been working with reptiles my whole life. It drives me nuts when someone calls any snake “poisonous”. No snake is poisonous as you can eat them all and venom won’t effect you if digested. Snakes are “venomous” as venom must be injected or delivered by some other means into the blood stream or muscle tissue to be effective.
I guess we are all saddled with others abusing words at times. I will try to call them “magazines” on the show but isn’t a magazine something you read ;>)
Oh and doc66 on this,
“the .357 suffers from over-stablization in the longer barrel lengths and it actually looses down range velocity”
I would like to let you know that I have fired 357 mags with max loads of H110 under 158 grain bullets through both a Marlin with a 16.25 inch barrel and through an NEF with a 22 inch barrel. With that load at least the gain continued and was actually bout 4% higher then the Marlin.
As the Speer Manual puts it at times “ballistics tend to get gray”.
I recently picked up a Taurus Thunderbolt .45 Colt to go with my Ruger Vaquero pistols. I haven’t had an opportunity to shoot the Thunder bolt yet but it appears to be a well made rifle. It’s not “tacticool” like some of the stuff mentioned in the show and with a 26” barrel it’s not exactly a carbine ether but it is available in .45 colt and .357/.38 special. The .45 Colt holds 14 rounds and since the Thunderbolt is a short stroke pump action it can be fired or slam fired almost as fast as you could fire a semi auto.
I have considered shortening the barrel making it more carbine length or I may try developing a load that will take advantage of the longer barrel. For now I will wait until I have had a chance to put it through its paces before making any drastic changes.
Fantastic show –
Really great for me, as I’m thinking about buying my own gun lately after I get back up to speed on my safety.
I never knew there were such inexpensive options that could be all around great choices for the survivalist.
Great show today. I will make an attempt to get over the fugliness of the Hi-Point carbine and will consider it to use in the future. The price is good, the fact that they stand behind the product is better. I just wish they had a little bit better aesthetics. Perhaps the enemy will cringe at the sight of the rifle and just give up… “Just put it away! I surrender!” =-P
Actually Hi-Point has a new stock in the works that makes the gun look pretty damn awesome. You can see a proto type here on the Hi Point Forum
http://tinyurl.com/62ty3o
I just hope this stock ends up being an option rather then the new normal gun. Clearly it would raise the price. One of the great things is how affordable the guns are. Ugly version or cool version will shoot the same. I am all for the new stock, in fact I plan to buy one. I just hope they keep the entry level carbine affordable for all.
Okay…I wouldn’t kick that one out of bed after I was done. ;-]
Oh, and mullet FTL…
Just to let golks know, if you just can’t wait for the new factory stock, Advanced Technologies (ATI)
has a replacement stock for the 995 only (will not fit the 4095). It’s a bit more ergonomic and feels a lot more solid. Also gives the gun a “Beretta CX4 Storm Carbine” look. Ive got 2 995s and I have one in the factory stock and one in the ATI stock.
Best of both worlds.
i have been wanting a 995 on and off. Your show has again made me want to get one. I just wish they’d get a higher capacity magazine working. I think only promag offers one, and I heard it sucks.
A 45acp version would be cool. I shot a full sized UZI rifle with a 45 kit and it was a great time.
For a short range carbine, I prefer a red dot optic.
As for the ATI stock, I say “Keep it ugly”.
Someone posted your link in a forum and I am glad they did. I listen to Sirius online and podcasts all day at work. I think this will keep me going for a while until I catch up. I also referred your site to my friend who has an unrelated podcast that he does monthly. Perhaps you guys will cross post each other.
One great pistol caliber carbine you forgot is the Marlin Camp series. I own a Marlin Camp .45 that uses the same Mags my 1911 uses and it is a blast to shoot.
John
Great gun and was even in my show notes but it went long so it got left out. They are really hard to find now and I only see 9MMs at the gun shows. My brother-in-law who is the cop in the family has one in 45. Been trying to get him to sell it to me for a long time. I had hoped when he got his AR he would want to sell it, but the AR has now come and still he won’t.
I took the previously mentioned Taurus Thunderbolt to the range a couple weeks ago and was impressed with it. The action is a little stiff but not bad. It fed the Remington ammo I used without a hitch and I am pleased with its accuracy at approximately 100 yards. I still question whether the barrel is too long to get the most out of the .45 Colt cartridge but will need to measure the bullet velocity before coming to a conclusion on that point. Over all I think this rifle would be a good choice for the person looking for a pistol caliber long gun especially if you prefer the look of classic firearms over the modern stuff. True, the Thunderbolt is not as short as it could be but in the rack next to a Mossberg 500 with a 20” barrel they look to be about the same length.
Can the 44 special load specs be used or modified for a 444 marlin. I know they have similar sized bullets but the 444 has a much longer case, of course. I’ve got a lever action 444 and would love to see if a quiet round would work at close distances with it. Thanks!!
bw
P.S.
LOVE the show.
@Bruce,
I sure wouldn’t try it. The bullets are exactly the same so that is not the issue. My concern would be what effect the very small charge of powder has in such a large case.
My advice would be to use the formulas in the Lee manual to reduce the loads a bit at a time and see how low you can safely go according to those guidelines.
I am sure you can come up with some great reduced loads but taking a powder like H227 and reducing it in such a large case without some sort of solid data is not something I would recommend.
I absolutley agree with most of this podcast.
I have a Ruger Deerfield and a Hi-Point 995. I have killed more than my fare share of deer with the Ruger, in fact, it is my gun of choice for deer hunting in the brushy jungles of Missouri.
I love my hi-point. It works very well, and I would trust it eith my life. I you get the new ine with all the rails, look into getting the laserlite/kabar pistol bayonet. It is a perfect fit, and adds another layer of comfort in home defense. I have owned both the kel-tec sub 2000 and the su-16a ( the .223 rifle. I absolutley hate the sub 2000. It is a piece of crap. Malfunctions galore, and poor grouping. I did like the su-16a, I had no problems with it and I loved the fact that it had a built in bipod and accepted ar mags. That said, I traded it for my beloved ak-47. Ohhh, the ak-47!
The .444 CAN be loaded down to 44 special ballistics if one uses a fast burning powder such as Unique. Unique is a powder that can be used for every single caliber and gauge out there. Maybe not with optimum velocities, but as the name suggests, Unique is……..well…..Unique!
I regularly load the .444 down to 900fps with 200-240gr cast or jacketed bullets with small charges of Unique. Loads are listed in many different publications and I like to use RCBS’s cast bullet manual.
[…] Episode that gives you the “special” 44 rifle load that is all but silent […]
I recently had a thought that has still not left me no matter how much I try to shake it. It’s actually a combination of ideas and I’m sure I’m not the first to think of any of them. I have a taurus judge 3″. I’ve seen the thompson center katahdin in 460 s&w. I’ve seen the raging judge 454 410. I’d like to somehow see them all combined. I figured that maybe it was too much of a gap to jump in a 3″ 410 chamber, maybe 2-1/2″ is viable. how about a bolt or lever or pump rifle in 460 that can fire all three? I’d be happy with it even if it didn’t fire 410. or with a 454/410 rifle that didn’t fire 460. Maybe I’m crazy or just don’t understand all the different complications going on there, but dang it, I want one! Whatever the combination might be.
Also, the thought had crossed my mind that a 45 colt or 454 casull case could be used in conjunction with some of those monster cast bullets in the 700 plus weight category in such a rifle to really deliver a hard thump on unsuspecting prey without anyone hearing it.