Episode-1755- Is Stateless Marriage Possible — 19 Comments

    • Ha some tool stripped that video and reuploaded it because was butthurt that I don’t fully buy into ALL the 911 theories, note saying I didn’t buy the official narrative was not enough.

      It is my video, I originally uploaded it, it was Neil and I joking around.

  1. Interesting. I am going to have to listen again for what I might miss legally if I am not married. My situation is a “child-arranged marriage” that we decided to not include the state as his college debt was large, and I never trusted to govt. to not go after the kids’ assets due to that. Moreso, the tax laws are against marriages, and insurance is impossible to get with our very modest to incomes combined, and unaffordable. I also don’t like a legal binding contract that would be very expensive to undo if we parted ways. Hard decisions, it just feels creepy to have the Govt involved. we have the will and the power of attorney in place, not sure what else I would be missing.
    I have often felt that the Govt needs to legalize domestic civil unions as similar to marriages. If they didn’t call them “Marriages”, then the moral issues wouldn’t be so oppositional.

  2. Token, Hi. I would like your source(s) for the “6Types Gender Chromosome Combination” mentioned. Also, in all earnestness and from a true scientific-type questioning : Its come up in my mind’s critical thinking due to Environmental Estrogens, Chemicals and Pharmaceuticals; also due to the sex gene and gender changes found over the years in a host of animals; that its been going on with humans too, i.e. boys having low testosterone, girls menstruating earlier, intra-gender births, etc. My mind tells me it is illogical to think Humans are immune, for we are living animals too. I know this isn’t to do with the Marriage topic, but it could have implications concerning the State and its relationship with Big Business, including Ag and Pharma. I do understand that none of us can control how we are born biologically, but if there are things in the Environment affecting the sex genes of humans is it intelligent to just accept how we are, and not be activists to correct this? Is this not a survival type thing to at least rule out? I mean sure a person has to accept who they are, but do you get what I am saying? I hope you can tell its really something I wish I could be able to cognitively not be concerned with, but I know just enough that I cannot help it that my brain wonders. In some ways, in my mind, it may be policy-wise or whatever akin to the Agent Orange and other chemical type cover ups so many have had to deal with. Ok, well, I’m being brave and courageous to post this. I’ll take the chance of negative feedback just to get some those sources from you, and maybe some other insight you may have to do with how my brain wonders on this particular topic. Sincerely, and Thank You, Gerri

    • Hi Gerri,

      I’m afraid most of my info is from reading a few of my wife’s textbooks, and lots of nerding out with doctors, but Wikipedia is a pretty good place to start. The six chromosomal genders are thus:

      XX: standard female
      XXX: Tends to be slightly taller, only has girls. You can’t tell with the naked eye if you have it, is likely to be VASTLY underdiagnosed as we don’t usually chromosomally type people. Estimated to be about 1 in 1,000. Considered by some to be a normal phenotype for human genders.
      XO: Turner Syndrome. Second X chromosome is damaged. Usually short, and sterile, but present as women. Prone to heart problems. Not usually considered a chromosomal gender but rather a problem, since it happens when the second X chromosome is damaged somehow.
      XY: Standard male
      XYY: Only have sons. Also about 1 in 1,000 people. Some indication they are slightly more aggressive, and there’s a SLIGHT increase of XYY in prison populations, but considered by some to be a normal phenotype for human genders. They tend to be slightly taller and grow a little faster than their XY counterparts.
      XXY: Also called Klinefelter Syndrome. Most people who have it don’t know- the only real issue is sterility, but fertility treatments work. Present as male. About 1 in 500 births.

      There’s some other chromosomal odd matches out there, but they tend to 1. have some serious problems associated with them (the sort of thing that my doctor friends say fall outside the normal range of human chromosomal expression and into disorder territory- think of it as the difference between XYY, where most people who have it have zero idea they are XYY, to down syndrome, where there’s a host of problems involved), and 2 be a lot more rare.

      We don’t have a solid read on the numbers of people who are not XX or XY because many of them may be completely asymptomatic, ie normal, and we don’t really screen for it. Of the people who do have issues, a lot of it is fertility issues, and even THEN they don’t check until they’ve run through a bunch of other tests first.

      When you get to how the endocrine system handles gender, and things like androgen insensitivity or hypersensitivity disorders, you get a much, much, much more complicated picture of the biology of gender- instead of it being a yes/no, it looks more like a double bell curve, with people all the way on one end (I’d say for the male side it’d be someone XYYY with a sensitivity to androgens), small number but there, then gradually to more and more typical biologically male presentation, a dip in the curve towards more androgynous biology/intersexed, then a rise to more standard female presentation and trailing off as you hit XXX or XY with severe androgen insensitivity.

      That’s before you even get to things like intersexed people, which is a normal if somewhat rare form of biology. It also looks like in the victorian era, there were a lot more intersexed people who ended up married and with kids- the early surgeries that are now VERY controversial to try to ‘normalize’ the genitals of intersexed children are actually likely to sterilize them.

      Then you have a population in the Dominican Republic that presents as girls until puberty, then they change into males- They’re called Guevedoces and it turns out plenty of them go on to have kids of their own later. Most of them identify as boys with girl bodies until puberty hits and they grow a penis. This seems to be because of an enzyme issue, which isn’t even endocrine in nature.

      Each of these issues is fairly rare taken individually, but when you start adding them up, it turns into a decent slice of humanity.

      So, gender as Male/Female is a gross oversimplification of the biology. There’s a LOT of middle ground and grey area.

      • Thank you for a very good reply. Wow is what I’ll say for now 😉 I am interested in reviewing the info myself, so this gives me a good outline to work with on taking notes. 🙂

  3. Jack,
    You and token seemed surprised by the swift decision of the Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage, and I have a theory on that. The only time the American justice system is going to quickly give in is if a large enough chunk of the American people start asking questions the courts/politicians/oligarchs don’t want the people to answer. Ie “why do we need the state to have a part in marriage?”

    Thanks for an interesting show, and though I also don’t understand Token’s life choices I do appreciate your ability to tactfully converse with someone whom you don’t fully agree with in order to take what you can learn from the interaction.

    Thanks again,

    • Well she was, I was not, not even in the slightest. The only surprise was how many dissented. To me this is a very simple case of equal protection under the law, that is what I always contended.

    • This is Token. I was surprised by it because I figured we’d have to have more of the old guard die before we got real equality- there’s still a lot of people who are active voters, who were against civil rights. I thought they’d have to die for the culture to shift enough that people like me would be considered people in the eyes of the law.

  4. In the morning.
    Divorce Corp is now on Netflix. For those of us that have Netflix at least.

  5. Excellent show, thanks Token. Anyone wanting to explore the issues of stateless marriage and/or polygamy from a religious perspective may find a useful resource. There are also Christian polygamous families that have also had to deal with the same issues Token’s family has encountered, and there are more people reassessing state marriage every year.

  6. On the history segment and changing language… creation of “the new” is not always on the up and up. Consider the alternatives that come along with the process like slowly turning the meaning of a word like “racist,” into apparently anything you may not agree with and unjust. Would that be an example of freedom from control of language or would it be the application of controlling language? Food for thought

    • Generally language reflects our thinking and not the other way around. We can try using new words in order to change our thinking, but what often happens is that the new word takes on the old meaning instead.

      For example… in the Old Confederation (of Switzerland) they were having a problem with vitamin deficiency, so they were producing more than their share of dwarves. But people didn’t want to call them dwarves, so they called them “Christians”. That reminded people that we are all loved by the same by G-d.

      Well… it didn’t work out. The word “Christian” became distorted and comes down to us in English as “cretin”.

      Now we call them “Little People” and that name will probably stick because it reflects our current thinking rather than forcing it.

      Alex Shrugged

  7. Just an interesting comment, Jack, on the assumption that if you are an American married to a foreigner they are automatically accepted and allowed to stay. My cousin married an Indonesian woman. She had been educated here and had her green card. Fast forward over 10 years and 3 children later. They made a decision as a family to go to her country for a couple years. The children could be immersed in her culture, they could visit family and my cousin would take college courses while there and further his education. Unfortunately her green card expired while she was there. After the two years were up, my cousin had to leave as his visa had expired. The USA government wouldn’t let his wife back into the country! They had to start the arduous process of filing for another green card. It took another 4 years at least to get her ( and the by now 5 children, as 2 were born over there) back into the country permanently. My cousin had to make trips back and forth numerous times. The family was literally half a world away from each other as the older children came back to live with their grandmother. The government over there was threatening to throw my cousin out of the country during part of this fiasco ( he managed to make it back to visit his wife during the births of their 2 children who were born there, but he had to lay low as the government was on his tail ). It was a hard lesson learned that took years and tens of thousands of dollars to resolve. Good ole USA…..

  8. Regarding multiple partners in marriage, that seems like an edge case. I think a better case would be one person married to another, but not through the government system. (Or not only through them.)

    I am married both through the government system and through a religious system. The religious system comes with a contract which I signed. The contract does not mention G-d. It mentions how much I owe if I goof this marriage up or if decide to take a walk. (I think the going rate for a bride is 40 goats. So… let’s say $400 a goat. That is $16,000.)

    Goats turn grass into milk. A woman can sustain herself and her children with 40 goats.

    That is tradition. I have never seen a woman get a single goat out of this deal but you can see the principle involved. Marriage is there to protect women who are usually raising the children. If the marriage fails, the contract says that I must maintain her and the children at least until the children are raised.

    To extend this to a secular context… two people getting married can decide what they will or will not do ahead of time if the marriage fails. It could be a standard contract. The problem is not the contract but the acceptability by society. Currently most government agencies know what to do when they run into a guy like me holding a marriage contract.

    The Social Security Administration actually made us bring our contract down to the office so that they could photocopy it and have someone translate it into English. It is a legal document… in Hebrew. And it is rather beautiful as well.

    Search for the word “ketubah”. It is art.

    Multiple marriage partners are mentioned in the Bible and the parameters for such a marriage are well known… and difficult to achieve. Those people on TV (Sister Wives) are totally messing it up. They give the whole idea a bad name… which is why very few people will ever do such a thing. It is difficult enough making a marriage work between two people.

    Alex Shrugged.

  9. Thank you Jack and Token for an interesting show.

    So much relevant to me personally. I’ve been in a poly arrangement. And know quite a few who have to varying degrees.

    I’ve told people to expect this type of arrangement to increase in common practice over the next few decades. As it is becoming increasingly difficult to raise a family on two incomes. Over half of the second goes to daycare. Or if one stays home, there isn’t enough financial strengths to cover household costs. Where as when in the poly household, we had a primary bread winner, two part time incomes, and enough adults to allow our children to be home schooled.


    Token I too would love it if you have any links for the 6 sub-genders.

    Another gender aspect on top of the chemical influence mentioned above (many fish near cities are being gendered by sewage waste runoff full of birth control btw). But recent discoveries regarding human chimeras. They thought this to be extremely rare, but have recently found that although still uncommon it is not as rare as they thought. For those not familiar with the term chimera, it references having multiple DNA. This results from multiple fertilized eggs fusing into a single person. The result is that someone may have one DNA for their organs, another for their blood or other organ. A person with chimera DNA may have some cells that are XY and others that are XX. It’s quite fascinating.

    There are some who suspect that a number of those who are Transgender or intersexed may have chimera DNA.


    Thank you Jack for the divorce documentary. This is my current life. I’ve spent $20,000 trying to stay in my kids’ lives. The court system has been a joke. And I’ve pretty much had my life destroyed. These days my survival thoughts and prepping are no longer to the future, or debt. No escaping that now. My survival is looking to tomorrow and telling myself to make it to it. Not give up. … :’-(

    • Hi Jason, I posted a pretty in depth reply to your question up thread, it’s long as heck and I didn’t want to post it twice, but it’s a good place to start if you’re really interested in the difference between our culture vs. our biology.