Episode-1541- Reclaiming Our Sovereign Food Rights — 47 Comments

  1. Regarding the Miracle Fruit Plant, where does that plant grow best? Normally, Bob Wells’ website recommends Zones, but not for this plant. I did a quick google search, and it said Zones 7-9, but then another source said humid and tropical climates. There just seems to be a lot of contradictory information from people that I’m not sure know what they’re talking about. actually put in the instructions to never plant with compost because Osmocote is better.
    I tried calling Bob Wells Nursery and their line just has a busy signal. So I assume a lot of people are interested and looking for more info as well.

    • Well, did some more research last night, and the truth is I still have no idea whether it’ll work out here. But what the heck, I’ll try one and see. After all, why have a backyard food forest, if you can’t try plants like this. Maybe if it’s successful, we can start propagating them, where apparently, no one has thought to grow them before.

  2. Good show, Jack. I like the strategy of just planting stuff and then letting TPTB fight you to remove or undo what you’ve done. It’s the same of what happens in government, but in a good way. They pass bunch of stupids law and then we have to fight to remove them.

  3. Aloha Jack – Yes, this fruit is the real deal! You can eat one (they’re fairly small) and then eat raw lemon and the lemon tastes sweet. Just like the description. I had it the first time when I was working on a farm on the big island, so it definitely is easy to grow in the tropics. I haven’t seen it in years, but would love to get my hands on one.


    Someone who is DOING! Not THINKING about doing.

    Ron Finley is a local gardening guru and cofounder of L.A. Green Grounds who in 2010 transformed the parkway outside his Crenshaw home into a garden flush with kale, lettuce, lavender, and more. But in 2011 he ran afoul of city officials who said his plants were “obstructions” and that he needed a $400 permit.

    Finley, however, took the issue up with City Hall, and he’s now working with officials to make what he’s doing legal so that his neighbors can also replant their own grassy lawns into harvestable vegetables.

    • Gotta love that last slide! It really does say it all!
      I’m a huge fan of Ron Finley, and I’ve noticed Jack’s been talking about him more and more on the air, which I think is great. He’s won the fight on planting sunflowers and tomatoes etc. But they’re not backing down on Fruit Trees, but they made the mistake of specifying fruit trees. So, hopefully he plants a pistachio tree or a nut pine next! Not just at his house, but all over the neighborhood.

  5. Jack, you should really think about writing this up into a 20-30 page e-book. At 99 cents on Amazon, it’d be a great way to cast a wide net. One thing you’ve done here is advocated for animal welfare to the folks who might be into freedom issues (but don’t think twice about buying grocery store chicken), and given the animal welfare crowd (who likely vote for every tax increase and regulation they can) something to think about.

  6. Excellent idea. I am going to randomly plant fruit guilds in parks. Place a bird bath in the middle and place a sign that says No fertilizers, No pestiscides, No herbicides. Endangered species area. Enjoy the surplus. Most people won’t even realize what happened. Gorilla war is on like Donkey Kong.

  7. Wyoming of all places started heading down the path of deregulating food commerce with the Wyoming Food Freedom Act that was just signed into law. Virginia has been trying to get the deal done for a while. I have heard that Utah may take it up next year. Right now, even bake sales are illegal in Utah.

  8. Michigan is turning into a battle ground.
    Watch these in order.

    Sadly this farmer isn’t the only farmer under fire here in Michigan. If you are a Vegan and garden that seems to be okay in our area but animals have turned into a hot topic and so has code for homes (woodstove). I personally know this farmer. I plan on emailing and contacting all our reps here and informing all my friends.

    Support your local farmers!

  9. I would take a little issue with Jack on some of the comments on raising hogs. I grew up on a small farm and we raised hogs. We had a 20 sow operation and raised hogs to be made into sausage and other products that we sold. The photo that he posted is a bit misleading. It was not a photo of the entire pen area. Yes it was a confinement type operation. Also as far as farrowing crates go, the sow can rise and stand( they have to be able to do that to eat and drink). We used crates to farrow hogs in as well as pens. It was somewhat due to what worked better for the sow involved. Crates do help to protect the baby pigs from accidental crushing by the mother. Gestation crates also have a place. I did my internship on a farm that used them. In our operation we did not.

    Also you spoke about the faceless bureaucrat regulators. I am one of those. I work for my state department of agriculture as a meat inspector. I started this job a year and half ago. I have found more at my level that would agree with you that would not. We do have a lot of things that are pushed down from the federal level that do not make a lot of sense for the small local operations that I work in. I would love to discuss this with you further, if you had any questions for someone on the “inside” Thanks. Great job with the insurrection/anarchy series. You really hit a lot of nails right on the head.

    • Great keep treating animals like shit and trying to justify it! No I don’t have an interest in discussing it further with you, not in the slightest. I’d like you to spend a week living like these pigs do and then you can talk to me about it.

      • Sorry response seemed a bit harsh. Not trying to justify anything, was just offering my perspective. Still love the show.

      • Yeah. Not a fan of operations like that either. The photo that you linked is a gestational barn. Those sows are in various stages of gestation, and then will be moved from there into a farrowing crate give birth, and then bred back and will continue with that cycle until they are no longer productive(usually about 3 to 4 years old) and then they will be sold and slaughter usually for sausage. You are also correct that the people that staff many of these facilities have little to no knowledge on animals of animal husbandry. They are monkeys that push the buttons that they are told to by their managers. As far as the health of the animals, yes you have greater incidence of disease in these types of facilities, much in the same way that you would in a large city because of the population density. Bottom line is while this type of situation is not ideal, these animals are not unhealthy. Sick animals do not produce as well as healthy ones and are not as profitable as healthy ones. These operations are all about making money.

        I would like to ask if you have ever been in or worked in that type of facility. I have, I was just hoping to provide some insight and additional information to you. I am not seeking confrontation. As you said in another recent show. What kind of beer do you like?

  10. Wow, that response seemed a bit weird from what I have heard on your show. We did not ever treat our animals like shit ever. I am not trolling. I was just hoping to give you another perspective. I find your show very informative and listen regularly. I also think you have some really good ideas. For what its worth we also had hogs on pasture and did outdoor farrowing as well in the summer months. We were a very small farm. Not a large commercial factory type operation. Thanks again.

    • That really depends on how one defines ‘treating as shit.’ Having visited several associates in prison and seeing and hearing about their time under such circumstances, I’m sure they would consider living there to be the definition of being ‘treated like shit’ despite the free food, shelter and cheap healthcare and tattoos.

      I can tell by your tone [and the summer pasturing comment] you didn’t intend to treat them like shit, and that within the context of typical commercial operations you were pretty considerate of the animals overall, but giving birth in a cell must really suck xD.

      [Incidentally, if you’d like a reference on outdoor winter farrowing look up Sugar Mountain Farm, they’re an awesome Pastured Pork operation in the mountains of Vermont.]

      • Thanks, I checked out there web, and looked at the one video the had showing building of their new kill floor and processing facility. It also showed their farm and the hogs.

        I would be interested in knowing what they are able to produce as far as pigs per litter and how many farrowings they get per year per sow. We farrowed out doors in the summer months. The biggest reason for using is to help with production and keep more baby pigs alive. Also let me define a farrowing crate. A crate is pen on a raised deck that is 5 feet by 7 feet, the sow area is 7 feet long by 2 feet wide, the rest of the area is called the creep, that is where the piglets run. A sow will go into a crate about a week or less before delivery, and then will birth and nurse piglets. We liked to wean at about 4 weeks of age, modern large scale production facilities will push them a lot faster. Piglets were weaned and put into a nursery barn or pen to get them to about 50 pounds, then you put them into a finisher. We used modified open front buildings, basically the pigs were outside but had a shelter to get into when they wanted. We used straw for bedding. The sows then went into outdoor pens(they had a shelter hut when they wanted) to run with the boar and be bred back. They would stay in this type of pen until they were ready to farrow again.

        The biggest reason for using the crates to help protect the babies, and be a bit more efficient. Nothing at all wrong with doing it the way Sugar Mountain farm does it. It is just more land intensive and your are not able to get as much production out of your animals.

        • Do you know why there are 6.5 million wild hogs in Texas and they don’t all crush their babies to death?

          Those that do don’t pass on their genetics, enough said.

          If a sow crushes its piglets, shoot it, butcher it and repeat until you have sows that don’t crush their babies.

          The reason I have no interest in discussing this with you is I have heard all this shit before, I already know what you will say and I already know why none of this shit is necessary. Your numbers question shows the real problem! If I can get X% more then I am right is the space you are in right now.

          I know farming is hard, you have to do it, etc.

          Thing is no you don’t and those that are not doing as long as they are not molested by Government are doing better for both the earth and their bank accounts at the same time.

        • Sure it’s more land intensive… per hog. But there’s far more being done on that land than producing pork. They also raise sheep and poultry, and the land is growing ever more fertile, unlike the land being monocropped to feed pigs raised in confinement.

          As for babies per litter and other questions you might have about SMF, their FAQ should answer most of those. He’s actually bred up teat-count for the sake of larger litters, averaging ‘a little over 8’ per sow with some exceptional lines exceeding 13.

          When you talk about protecting the babies, that’s mostly only an issue in confinement operations. When there’s a lot of space, the babies run away [and the ones too dumb to run away get taken out of the gene pool.]

          Another item in terms of expense to consider is all this infrastructure you’re using. Fencing has its costs but it’s got to be less than all these buildings and crates and pens and such.

        • Good answer, now let’s look deeper.

          There is no doubt that a 1 acre confined space can raise a lot more hogs then say even 100 acres of pasture. But should it is the question and does it cause more harm than good?

          What is the real land foot print.

          On 100 acres raising say 100 hogs which is easy and we could do more, 200 would not over do it on good land. The hogs get 50% of their diet on good forage from the land. So how much land does it take per hog to feed them grain? Not to mention this is in the current paradigm, imagine what we could do just harvesting acorns from trees that already are mature?

          Now in our 1 acre hog warehouse we have 1000 hogs, god the stink what is that sink, oh yea 1000 hogs shitting and pissing day in night. We now have an environmental mess. What do our 100 hogs do with their piss and shit, oh that is right they improve fertility, no one has do lift a finger to do a thing with it, their shit and piss grow food their great, great, great, great, great grand piggies will eat.

          Now on that 100 acres what else is happening, how many chickens could be raised? At 250 to the acre which is no stretch for the land at all, 25,000, I know we can create like 250,000 birds to the acre with chicken houses of horror but again what do those 25,000 birds do for our land, not to mention well, frankly most 100 acre farmers can’t even sell 25,000 birds. The chickens will get 30-60% of their diet from the land.

          Well hells bells what is that bell, here comes some cows they have bells! How many, in a well managed system, 25 cows will not even begin to over graze in a leader follower system.

          Oh, hey look there, ducks, fricken ducks and geese on mop up duty, they come last in this system. First the cows, then the chickens, then the pigs, then the ducks, oh wow, look at that. A few hundred ducks and geese a year on that 100 acres.

          Why look at that land it is getting greener and greener, holy shit (literally) are those rows of plants actually trees that these animals have been grazing in between this entire time? Wow look apples, plums, persimmons, current, aronia, elderberry and son of a gun, chestnuts (or pecans say in the south). Hey look honey locust, black locust and oh I get it grazing shade from the fern leaves and fodder from the honey locust pods, oh shit I get it, wow, cows and pigs and chickens and ducks can also be fed with trees, not just people. I mean hey look some of those persimmons are huge, no way to harvest that fruit, oh I see it hangs into winter when forage is scarce and then drops calorie dense feed for my hold over stock when they need it most.

          Wait why the fuck are you cutting the tops off my beautiful locust trees, oh only in this one spot this year, oh they fucking grow back fast like in 4-6 years they are bigger than before and we can cut them again, but why. Oh shit, fence posts and fire wood, from a fucking tree that grows back. Hey why are all those awesome herbs growing around that stand of locust you just cut, oh fuck you mean now that the sun can get in and the roots of those trees are shedding excess, what did you call it, oh yea ni tro gen, that shit other farmers buy?

          So you mean now I can get fire wood, fence posts, fertilizer and high dollar herbals from a tree that feeds and shades my stock and grows back, holly shit.

          So where exactly do I put my confinement hog building on this acreage?

        • Thanks for that epic summary of a silvopasture system Jack, much appreciated.

          [And of course the cattle are creating food for the hogs as well.]

        • And the ducks, in Geoff Lawtons words, “A duck will dig into a pile of cow shit that would kill you if you saw it, but that same duck is still very good to eat”.

  11. @ modern survival you seem to be making assumptions about me and my intent. Not saying at all that you have to use modern practices, huge confinement factory type facilities. I was just pointing out that it is immensely more efficient. That is why they are there. Also not saying it is right either. Kinda like something you said in an earlier cast, it is not all one way or another way, the truth is usually in the middle. I am also not putting down organic all natural doing it the old way either. We did a little of both.

    @Lukkas – They have an interesting operation. I was reading the FAQ I did see the part about the born alive numbers, I was looking for the weaned numbers. Just for reference the average weaned per litter for the country is just over ten pigs per litter. From your quote above not sure if you are talking about teat count(which is not indicative of litter size born, does affect weaned, more teats better able to feed larger litters) or how many they wean. Bottom line is that a modern industrial facility(on the same parcel of land) would produce more pigs in a week than they produce in a year(and it aint even close) This however is like comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same type of operation ect. They are a boutique type business that markets to people of a certain monetary affluence. Given what they are charging for their product appox. 5 times market price (live hog price)

    I live in a rural area, we have lots of local butcher shops. One that I inspect in raises and markets their own hogs. (very small scale, he has less sows than SMF) They farrow in crates and finish out in outdoor pens(not pasture) I can purchase a live hog from them and have them butcher it and it would cost about half of what SMF charges.

    • That boutique market exists for a very good reason. Commercial hog raising is generally a pretty sick business. [As one example, I bet we’d have a riot on our hands if we expected women to give birth and nurse their babies in a cage barely large enough to lay on her side and stand up for a breather, and she’s got the added bonus of plentiful space to pace back and forth and turn around when she stands up, a privilege the sow is sorely lacking.]

      The reason it ‘works’ [although I put works in quotes because it won’t work forever] is cheap inputs from subsidized farming.

      Now, the outdoor pens you mention CAN be a pretty good life… IF they’re mobile pens. I’ve raised hogs in pens I moved every day [bringing them to fresh food and clean ground], but by the same token it was only 2 hogs to a pen, and these were a small breed not a commercial sized hog. But if the hogs are just left in an outdoor pen to desertify it and are stuck there long after the place becomes a mudpit… that is very much not good for the pigs. [Mud they like, but they also benefit a great deal from vegetation and living soil.]

      Essentially my opinion is if you can’t afford to buy sustainably raised meat, then you really can’t afford to pay someone else to raise your meat for you. I’m in pretty much that boat myself. If someone doesn’t have the land to raise larger animals rabbits and quail are pretty viable.

  12. Asked: So where exactly do I put my confinement hog building on this acreage?

    Well it depends, where do you have space available, terrain, how to best use it with what you have, as well as you climate.

    First, it is not an all or nothing proposition. A confinement type building does not have to be a giant mega structure. The setup you described is pretty cool, I also think a small farrowing house could really work well in your described scenario. Something big enough for about 4 or 5 farrowing crates, and also enough nursery space for 50-60 weaned pigs(big enough for one batch). Pasture the sows for breeding and gestation, bring them in for farrowing and nursing(3-4 weeks, with 4 prob working better) . Wean the babies and put them in the nursery, get them to about 30ish pounds, and then transition them to the pasture, likely using a brooder barn to acclimate them. Once they are acclimated full pasture till they are finished and ready for slaughter or breeding. The advantages, you can achieve a higher amount of pigs weaned per litter by minimizing losses that you would have with an outdoor setup, mainly in the colder months. If you in a more temperate area, I prob would not go this route, but instead use outdoor farrowing pens. The main idea I am getting at is to allow you to help manage the livestock and get the most utility out of them. Your being there working with them hands on can save or gain you an extra pigs per litter weaned and introduced into you finishing program. This means you can either do with less sows and land, or have surplus pigs that you could co-op with your neighbors, produce piglets for them to raise in trade for something you need.

    The farrowing house that I am talking about does not have to be a high tech or fancy facility. Our first farrowing house was an old 12×60 house trailer that we gutted and modified into a farrowing house/nursery. We got the thing for the price of hauling it off and did the renovations ourselves. For waste disposal we used plastic sheeting to make a flush pan under the crates. you fill the pan with about an inch of water, critter piss and shit and it falls below into the pan. Key is to not have to much water, if the shit is covered with water it will make ammonia and the nasty stink you mentioned. You pull the plug and flush the pan every couple of days as needed. The slurry of manure water that comes out can be run out into a field for natural fertilizer of you could do a lagoon system. Most of that depends on what would work best with you system. I think something like this could play very well in the system you are describing, not hindering it but by working with it.

    • While your farrowing crate could complement the system being discussed in some ways…

      A: it seems kind of cruel to lock a pig in a crate for the time it takes her to wean her piglets [plus one week prior I believe you said]

      B: it requires a lot of inputs. Human labor to set up the facilities, human labor to load the sows, feeding the sows [which is human labor and either money to buy in feed or more human labor to harvest it off the land], human labor to manage their waste material, feeding and cleaning the ‘nursery’…

      All in all its just better to let pigs be pigs and focus on management and harvest rather than trying to get in there and micromanage things like breeding, birthing and weaning.

      • A: I disagree, but that is more of a person to person issue. I raised animals this way I did not see them in any distress or behave any differently in crates vs outside(we did both) The reasons for doing it, protect sows and offspring from elements and predators ect. You can also feed them a more nutrient and energy dense ration during a critical phase.

        B. Valid point. It does require more input in both material and time. My thoughts are, as I alluded to above, you choose the time and place that you want to micromanage. To a point when it can get you the most benefit. The time and inputs that you put in and this very critical phase can pay off bigger over time. Mainly in doing more with less. There is a reason the mega farms do things the way the do. I am not saying to emulate them, or that you have to do it that way, however if you can learn something from them and adapt it to what you want to do great. A big part of sustainability is efficiency.

        Lukkas, thank you for your feedback and discussion. I have listened to Jack for a bit now, I am not as big on the permaculture stuff. I am not a big plant guy, I like working with animals much more. Yes, I know all of it is interrelated. I was just hoping to be able to contribute something back. This was my first time commenting on any of the shows. I have to admit I am a little taken aback by Jacks responses, but I do not know all the history, if he thought I was trolling or trying to directly confront or provoke a confrontation. I was just hoping to contribute in an area that I have some expertise in. Thank you again.

  13. That is fine. I am guessing that you were expecting a bit of a different view from me. I do not appreciate you insulting me, but whatever. I still like the show and think that you have a lot of good info to offer. This was my first time commenting or responding to something on your show, I have listened for a while, and was looking to be more of a member of this community. Maybe in the future start with a little civility. Thanks have a good one.

    • When the fuck were you “insulted”? What damn world do we live in when grown men feel insulted solely due to the fact that they are vehemently and well disagreed with?

      Where were you called a name? Where was your parentage questioned? Where exactly where you referred to as stupid or something similar?

      Basically your contention is since you are “not into plants very much” that the proven methods that allow us not to abuse animals and treat them like shit are irrelevant to the discussion you started. And my response to such is well that is why I don’t even want to bother here.

      This is insulting? If so it can only be due to the beginning of some level of your own self examination, if so keep it up, but if so your feelings are not due to insult.

      When I insult someone, they know it! It is not hidden, back handed or under the table.

      Now may be you think me saying you treat animals like shit is an insult, if so and if you think putting pigs in a cage where they can’t even turn around isn’t treating them like shit, fuck it then bro, stand insulted and with said insult self assigned, yet well earned.

    • Indeed as Jack said he didn’t actually insult you. Your methods were ripped to shreds, but he didn’t touch your person or character directly [although having been shown a better way, what you decide to do from hereon does to some extent reflect on your character.]

  14. I was insulted because you made I believe to be a very incorrect assumption about me personally. We do not agree on everything, and I am fine with that. You made a statement about how I treat my animals that I found offensive, especially with you knowing nothing about me. You don’t know about the nights that I spent sleeping in the farrowing house watching over my sows and piglets. Times that I used every bit of technique and skill that I had learned over the years to help my animals thrive. Yes, one of the reasons was to be as profitable as possible, but not the only reason. If I take an animals into my service, I have a responsibility to them, to utilize them as fully as possible, to not waste what they have given me. As a steward to them, I owe them.

    On your show I mainly hear you talk about small animals, such as ducks, geese and chickens. I have many years of experience with larger animals, I only sought to share what I know.

    My comment on what you do with permaculture is not meant to demean anything you do, I actually find it quite interesting, however that being said. I don’t have much of a green thumb. I have always been much more attuned to livestock, but that is me. I also never said that modern big agri is the only way to go. The way that you choose to do things is also not the only way to go. I never once said that you were wrong. I said, I disagreed with you, and tried to explain myself in a calm and rational discussion. You basically called me a piece of shit animal abuser. You did not offer anything else. Such as hey this is why I think you are wrong, or why I think what I think. At the end of the day I think we can still choose to disagree, and still be fine with one another. I have listened to your show for a bit now, and that is why I was taken aback by your response. I am just starting to develop my plans for my home and preparing. I was looking forward to being part of this community. I was planning on joining the MSB soon. Now not so sure. I will likely still continue to listen, and take what I can from your show, and participate in the forum. Hopefully try to build some contacts and network there.

    • ‘You don’t know about the nights that I spent sleeping in the farrowing house watching over my sows and piglets.’

      Much respect for this dude, I’ve done something similar doing some semi-old-school-shepherding with sheep, but that doesn’t stink the way farrowing crates must. It’s far from the best method, but it certainly shows that you do care for your animals, whether or not they happen to be unhappy with your methods.

      Like I said in my simultaneous [a few minutes after, but I was writing it while you were writing the message to which I’m responding] post above this one, Jack wasn’t calling YOU a piece of shit, nor was he saying you’re an Animal Abuser. [Animal Abuse is a legal crime with specific definitions.] What he did say is that he feels your methods are shit and that- whether or not it is your intention- your sows are being treated as such.

      It’s pretty interesting though, many of the people in the sustainable ag industry don’t farrow their own pigs so they don’t have to deal with this issue. It’s somewhat likely the people that- say- Salatin and Sheppard buy their hogs from used this very same farrowing system.

      On the ‘green thumb’ thing, very few people truly have a green thumb, while just as few have a pure black thumb of death to plants [I say pure black to distinguish it from the flesh tone called black.] Most of us have flesh-toned thumbs and it takes us some time, trial and error and research to get the plant thing figured out.

      For what its worth, all these systems work FAR better with plants and animals integrated together in some managed way rather than separating them out. Nature runs on this shit after all.

    • Based on what you said and based on what you continue to say I flatly say you do treat your animals like shit, this is based on what YOU SAY, so if YOU don’t like that, it is YOUR problem, got it?

      Now man the fuck up, you want to say what you do is okay then you need to not be a fricken baby when others find it to be a shitty way to treat an animal.

      Again you are clearly demonstrating, exactly why I said I had NO INTEREST in this discussion.

  15. Thank you Lukkas.

    A lot of my thoughts come from my background and upbringing. I grew up in a small community with a lot of small farms ect. Some of how I learned to do things were just how things were done for good or ill. I am not opposed to trying new things or different ways. I really like to think that I have a truly open mind. We did some outdoor farrowing, and from my experience it can work very well. It can also go horribly wrong. We tended to tailor it to the particular animal in question. We had some that we farrowed exclusively outdoors and some that we did exclusively in crates. It always depended on the animal and what worked best with them. As far as the animals being happy or unhappy, I am not Dr Doolittle or anything, but ours seemed happy and content.

    Crates do tend to be the industry standard though. So it is very likely that most that buy feeder pigs are buying hogs that came out of crates. My thought on what Jack had described and you were talking about is more on how to blend the systems. Take the best of both. Again though that is also up to the person running the show and how they want to do it. Far be it from me to say anyone is “right or wrong” in how they are doing it. In the end you have to do what is best for you. On a personal note, I would gladly give someone input or suggestions on however they want to do it. I just want to help and be part of the community at large.

  16. Also another reason that I have not listened as much on the permaculture stuff, is that I am not really to that point in my planning and such. We have been focused more on debt elimination and getting some of our more basic preps into order. I am a bit intrigued by some of the stuff that Jack has been discussing that way, I am just not to that point yet, so I have been more focused on other topics.

  17. Noted, I will not comment to you further as you clearly do not want to hear anything that is counter to your views.

    As far as me “manning the fuck up” The way I was raised, I was taught that courtesy costs you nothing but can pay great dividends. I have only strove to be courteous in offering my opinion, I shall let your replies speak for themselves.

    With that said, am I still welcome in your community?

  18. On second thought, I really do not give 2 shits what you think on my being welcome or not.

    • Well I respect the second comment a LOT more than the first one.

      And again it isn’t that I “do not want to hear anything that is counter to my views”.

      It is simply that I do not have time to hear the same old bullshit YET AGAIN from someone who clearly is interested in defending that which I personally find detestable.

      You think it is okay to do things to animals that I think are wrong, that is all, the end, there is no more, how hard is that to comprehend? Do you really think you are the first person to try to make this case to me? Do you really think I have never heard from your side of this argument before? Do you really think I don’t know exactly what you are saying?

      What did you expect from me, “Oh I see, you don’t like plants and stuff and you have been doing something I detest a long time, so you know more about doing that which I detest than I do. Oh yea sure tell me more about that which I find to be animal abuse because that will change my mind. Oh you get more pigs this way, you only treat them like complete shit sometimes, oh I didn’t know that, golly gee wiz I understand now.”

      Look I know exactly what you are saying, it isn’t that I don’t understand your view it is that I understand it PERFECTLY. I know exactly what you are doing, what you have done, what is done, I GET IT, I find it detestable. Simple no?

      Every attempt you made to define what you do has only CONFIRMED that which I began this conversation assuming. Because yes, it is that transparent.

      One more time, the way you treat animals is in my opinion not okay, it should not be done, I consider it animal abuse and I don’t condone it and I will not listen to bullshit about why we need to do it, when alternatives that PRODUCE A FAR SUPERIOR and HIGHER VALUE product exist.

      I didn’t call for your farm to be burned down, for laws to be passed, I simply said IN MY OPINION which I am ENTITLED TO, you treat animals like shit and no I have no interest in anyone trying to justify it.

      By the way it isn’t about you, EVERYONE THAT DOES THESE THINGS IS TREATING ANIMALS LIKE SHIT AND ABUSING THEM. I detest the practices, I don’t care who is doing it, all of you are abusing animals.

      And sadly you still think, if only he would listen, if only he understood, if only.

      NO. I do understand, that is the problem.

      Perhaps we should pick a practice you consider abusive and let someone try to justify it to you with what you already know? Or just perhaps, this makes my point better.

      For the love of God, telling someone you have a view and being told they don’t share it and don’t think it is okay to do what you do isn’t being insulted, it is another person being honest in their response to you.

      • Oh and the only reason for anyone to take my opinion of a practice they are engaged in this personally, is in your heart you KNOW IT IS ABUSE and that is hard for YOU TO FACE.

        Otherwise you’d of just said, “fuck it, he’s wrong”.