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Episode-1649- Does Permaculture Lead to Anarchism

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Permaculture-AnarchistWoh!  What is up with that title.  I know we have a lot of strong political views in Permaculture.  And of all stripes, liberals, conservatives and a lot of libertarians.  And many who have been in the movement a very long time are quite proud of what ever political stripe they have.

So does this question make sense?  I think that it does, and I think it leads many to start practicing anarchism without even knowing it or realizing it.

Understand there are two real types of anarchism at the individual level.  I call these philosophical and action based.  Strangely you’d think the philosophical would come easier but we all do the action based stuff in degrees.  Please understand these two definitions are no one’s but my own.

Philosophical Anarchism is the declaring of yourself to be an anarchist and then making choices about thoughts, issues and actions based on that.

Action Based Anarchism – is the ignoring or disobeying of authority so long as doing so does not violate the principle of non aggression.

For instance here are some action based anarchist things many of us have done or would do if certain circumstances occurred…

  • Dressing the way you want to vs. the way you are “supposed to”
  • Marrying who ever you choose instead of having an arranged marriage
  • Using an illegal substance, including a pain pill from your last prescription
  • Driving over the speed limit when no danger is present to another by doing so
  • Keeping 10 chickens when the code says you can only have four
  • Feeding homeless people even if the law says you can’t
  • Using violent force to stop one person from harming another.

Those are just a few examples.  To be clear on what is not anarchism here are some things people think are anarchist that are not.

  • Stealing your neighbors property.  This violates non aggression and is not anarchism.
  • Using violent force to harm another person because you simply don’t like them, again this violates non aggression.
  • Damaging property with vandalism, arson, etc.  Again this violates non aggression.

Join Me Today To Discuss…

  • Some of Permaculture’s biggest names and their views on anarchism
    • Bill Mollison – an anarchist that doesn’t know he is an anarchist
    • David Holmgren – a self declared anarchist
    • Geoff Lawton – teaches anarchism, though he would claim not to be an anarchist
    • Joe Salatin – a self proclaimed libertarian who practices anarchy
    • Toby Hemingway – a self described anarchist
    • Byron Joel – a self described anarchist
    • Ron Finely – no idea his politics but an anarchist in action
    • Paul Wheaton – not an anarchist but damn sure practices anarchy
    • Mark Sheppard – libertarian at a minimum, expert systems martial artist
  • Why Permaculture leads to anarchy
    • It leads to real solutions, often that are illegal but work
    • Ethics based and concerned with “people care”
    • Teaches the practice of currency creation and private banking
    • It is a design science which causes you to question everything
    • No room for bureaucracy, a tree doesn’t’ care about your title
    • A meritocracy in other words those that get shit done succeed
    • It is about rewilding humans to live with nature vs. opposing it
    • Promotes community interdependence vs system and centralized dependence
    • Focuses on real wealth above persevered wealth
    • Creates wealth that is hard if not impossible to tax
    • Leads naturally to commerce at a local level
    • Can not be controlled, policed, slowed down or stopped by the oligarchy
  • Final thoughts on what real freedom is and why morality is required for it

Bob Wells Plant of the Week

This week on the Bob Wells Nursery “Plant of the Week”, Bob wants to announce the relaunch of his new and improved website.

He has had numerous requests from his customers as well as M.S.B. members to include a better description of each fruit tree, such as what zone it grows in, if it needs a pollinator etc. Here is what the website now includes. For example:

~ REDSKIN PEACH TREE
~ TREE SIZE:  2 year old tree that is 4-5 feet tall.
~ EST CHIL REQ (BELOW 45 DEGREES):  750 hours.
~ USDA PLANT HARDINESS ZONES:  5-8.
~ POLLINATION:  Self-Fruitful:  No pollination required.
~ STONE FREENESS:  Freestone.
~ RIPENING DATE:  Mid – Late July.
~ ROOT STOCK: Available on Nemagaurd or Lovell.
~ SPACING:  Plant trees 15-20 feet apart.
~ FLAVOR OF FRUIT: Very Sweet.

See the New Site at BobWellsNursery.com

Resources for today’s show…

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Comments

Episode-1649- Does Permaculture Lead to Anarchism — 39 Comments

  1. Jack, as a anarchist, I think it is important to realize that there are 2 main types of anarchist, anarchocapitalist (ancap) and anarchocommunist (ancom). They are different in their belief in what anarchy is in practice. I don’t want to put labels on you, but listening everyday I would say you fall ancap (as do i) but hemming way would fall ancom.

    • I am aware of the so called divide.

      This divide is an illusion, any true anarchist community will be a mix of capitalism and socialism. The degree practiced left up to the individuals who are in said community.

      Some of my ideals are highly gasp socialist in the BEST POSSIBLE way you can use the term. If people are part of a community they should support each other and they do, they do so with no concept of force or cohesion being required.

      So called “ancoms” are generally not anarchists at all. Said people do not believe in individual rights to property and would only result in reinterpretation of a state. In fact I think many not all but man ancoms are statist socialists in disguise.

      Anarchism does NOT ALLOW for theft or force so when you ask an ancom how will you get everyone to share they always squirm as they know producers will not want to be the victims of consumers.

      To be an anarchist you have to be okay with people being as socialist or capitalist or whatever ist they wish to be as long as they don’t use force or cohesion to make others join with them.

      So in reality again the concepts of ancom and ancap are myths. Additional labels that lead back to archy vs. anarchy. There is a great video explaining this but I can’t find it right now.

      • The ancoms always argue that they were there first and that american libertarianism cooped their term and there is a visible disgust with them about this point. I would agree that the ancoms are usually statist, Marx being the prime example, however you are wrong that there is no divide, there most certainly is. I guess it is just how one defines oneself. Ancoms could live within an ancap society but ancap sect would not be allowed to live within a ancom society. Which to me would invalidate that society as being anarchy, but I haven’t had any success using logic with ancoms, so I just agree to disagree with them, and go do something productive and capitalistic.

        • Hence you make my point. There is no divide in anarchy because ancoms by their own assertion are not anarchists. This is like saying a bunch of punk teenagers wearing hoodies with As on them burning down buildings represent anarchy.

          Ancoms in short would stare without a state unless they are true anarcho socialists and have sufficient numbers to sustain themselves. In many ways the Amish are anarcho socialists.

          No one is required to exist in a group for it to be valid by the way, so long as each group leaves the other alone.

          Further the miscommunication with most is about the word capitalism. It doesn’t mean the same thing to both sides.

          Capitalists of most strips consider capitalism a free market business

          Socialists of most stripes consider capitalism control of the capital itself

          In the end they tend to agree more than disagree.

          It is those that see no right to property that are the false anarchists.

  2. Funny thing about anarchism is that people generally believes it to be an absence of something – a deficiency that require filling or repairing. Two people trading with each other in mutual agreement is the most basic form of government, it is one of assistance and mutual gain. People tend to see the problem as the solution. To simplify that, it is to say that the Fed IRP cannot make a fruit tree grow faster, or that another war will make our country stronger.

    Once we go from the few to the many to the most, we delude ourselves into thinking that a larger group requires larger action, when that simple mutual gain model can still be just as efficient. It’s when we hand our power over to others in order to keep those more complicated ‘solutions’ from interfering with us, that’s when we find ourselves in the current predicament.

    And about 90% of people that I say that to would disagree. Then would come the ‘but what if?’ or ‘but we need to be safe from…’ replies. At that point, the conversation becomes mute. We have completely different ideas from each other and no solutions are possible because we cannot even agree what is the problem. The problem isn’t the machine, as the machine is designed by the people.

    The problem is the people themselves. That includes me. I’m part of the problem. You are part of the problem. We are part of the problem. It’s time for us to start picking the trash up in our own yards rather than complaining to our neighbor about the tall grass in his.

  3. I want to burn down a house after being told not to a few years ago.

    I have a old house on some property out in a kind of rural area. I asked permission from the fire dept to burn it down about 6 years ago and they said no, because it might have asbestos. What would you recommend I do?

    My thinking is to just push it over and pour a few gallons of gas and set fire. but I do not know the consequences of doing that.

    thanks

    • I would do what you just said honestly! If you push it down then it is not a house but a pile of shit and you are allowed to burn that, or at least you think you are.

      Rent a machine and what is left push into a hole and bury it. Bring it 20 yards of cheap fill, cover it and let nature take over.

    • Market it as free materials to repurpose on Craigslist and have a bunch of tiny home hipsters come and dismantle it for you. Burning garbage shares your VOCs with the world. Might want to warn the hipsters about asbestos, though.

      • Ah asbestos fear at the irrational level! This is now ever excuse under the sun, there might be asbestos!

        When we had Lowes install carpet here they didn’t want to pull up the existing peel and stick tile because and I shit you not, “it could be asbestos”.

        Well

        1. There was no such thing as peel and stick tile when asbestos was used.
        2. A box of left over tile from there store was in our garage, so the same tile was on the same isle where we were being told it could be asbestos.

        The home my father lives in has asbestos tile on the outside. It was rated a zero risk and left in place.

        Insulation is the key. That is where the danger really lies and it is real.

        The question was the house built from 1930-1950. While used in home construction until 1980 for various things insulation as to my knowledge and I might be wrong was limited to 1930-1950.

        If so the probability of it is high.

        If not the probability is almost zero.

        But asbestos doesn’t burn! Hire a contractor, use proper breathing protection, knock it down, burn it and bury what remains. That would be ONCE and done and over. Right now it sits there doing what ever it is doing and it will never get better.

        Or just dig a big ass hole, push the house into it again using protective clothing. When it all settle toss the suit and respirators into the hole and cove it up.

        The other option, sooner or lager nature will rot the remains and expose the asbestos to everything.

        Most of the time when found asbestos is repaired and left in place, it is generally considered more dangerous to remove then to leave it alone. Unless it is in small particles and on your skin or in the air you are breathing it actually poses little to no risk.

    • Did you ask the Fire Dept if they would like to burn it as a training op? That is what a church I was secretary at in Northern Virginia did. The FD was happy to use it and.. poof, it was gone.

    • If you do burn it, you still have to let the fire department know you’re having a “huge bonfire,” so they don’t show up and charge you a bunch of money for showing up.

  4. jack, I anticipated a whole lot more response to this episode. The lack of which, I think, shows the depth that you have shoved all of us into deep thought and introspection. Your tenor and argument is spot on and I am humbled once again by your insight. As both an anarchist and a permaculturist, I am now closer and clearer in my goals and ambitions. Thank you.

    • Agreed. There’s tons of people out there that offer advice on what to do or how to do something. It’s nice once in a while to get some suggestions or thoughts on WHY we do something. Why… a question we don’t ask ourselves enough these days.

      I know some people don’t like these heady episodes from Jack, but I appreciate them. It’s nice to keep things in perspective.

  7. This was a bangin’ episode, Jack. I came at it from the other end – decided I was an anarchist in my teens, confirmed it in my twenties, got into permaculture in my mid-late twenties… took my PDC at 30 – in which Dave Jacke started talking about anarchism, and suddenly my whole life made that much more sense 🙂 Permaculture truly is anarchism in action.

    • I wonder if Jacke knew he cemented your anarchism how he would feel about it? LOL I have been trying to convert him and likely being too hard on him in doing so.

      That said as he made his case for the role of government I could see it was starting to fall apart for him as he did so. Could you imagine if in the coming years the gnashing of the purple it would cause if both Toby and Dave crossed the line?

      • Yeah, I’ve been following that (and eating a bunch of popcorn). It’s always interesting to see how personalities differ. Dave’s a great guy with a big heart – and has been a great friend as well as a great mentor. I think he’s definitely stuck on the left side of things, though he’s got at least somewhat of an anarchist bent. I’ll have to see if I can dig up the anarchist stuff I got in my PDC binder and send it your way.

  10. You continue to make me think. See, I was happy being a libertarian but now I realize I’m more anarchist than I thought. Of course, part of the problem is that I misunderstood what an anarchist *is*. My concept of anarchism was burning down buildings and destroying everything while mooching off society rather than earn one’s way. So, thanks for teaching me what anarchism really is and rocking my self-concept –AGAIN.

    • That is why I do these shows but they can get old for some so we are going to always mix it up. Today Bill Wilson is on and we are going to talk permaculture then we won’t really hit either subject for a few weeks.

      But yep and if you are a libertarian the way I see it is you may as well just move to anarchist anyway. Your candidates never win any elections anyway and they never will. Unless you are a LINO and vote republican because they are “more libertarian then the other guy”. Meaning not at all.

      If they ever do start winning it will be anarchists outside the system that pull society to that edge.

      • I’ve been holding my nose and voting Republican for years…mostly from family and church pressure to do so. But, I’m tired of “voting for the least of two evils” because it just means I’m voting for evil. I’m going through more than one paradigm shift lately to say the least. I hope you are happy! 😉

        • Just keep in mind the people that made the biggest change always do so outside the system EVEN WHEN the system changes.

          Spirko’s proverb number 14

          It is not the insider who pushes a system forward, it is instead the outsider that pulls it forward.

  11. i started to become an anarchist when i started to try to aply permaculture design to nuclear energy, very fast i found that all perseved problems were not inherent to nuclear problem but straw man problems created by state

  12. Jack,
    Voluntary Association + Mutual Cooperation + 110% Personal Responsibility = 100% Individual Liberty or Anarchy.
    Consider everyday Anarchy. How many people you know that volunteer in their communities, Volunteer Firefighters. EMT’s, and the many others that volunteer because it’s they feel it’s the right thing to do, not forced to do it. Most productive in dividuals are practicing everyday Anarchy. Anarchy = “Rules not Rulers”, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
    https://freedomainradio.com/free/#ea “Everyday Anarchy: The Freedom of Now”

  14. Great show Jack and always thought provoking. You have done more to push me towards freedom than anyone else. Much appreciated.

    Jim

  16. Funny how life works out. Jumped in my truck yesterday morning head to work, with the plan to pick up 24 quail chicks after work. Then bring them home to my house in a hoa that dose not look to kindly on birds. Guess this counts as an anarchist action

  17. “Freedom is something the requires morality. To have freedom you have to have morality, and not your version thereof. Universal morality [1:10:40].” Jack, I agree, however, what basis or justification do you give for your belief in universal morality?

  18. Thanks I learned a lot from you in this podcast.

    In short I did a PDC 6 years ago in Holland, stoped working for the system moved to rural area.

    I read “The most Dangerous Superstition” by Larken Rose 1.5 year ago and everything really became clear, this was what I’ve been looking for. (I dare to say since I was young)

    I think permaculture was part of my process. But I think it comes through many way’s.

    Again thank you for sharing your knowledge. Keep up the good work.

    Peace

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