PDC Sold Out Officially at 2:47 PM — 229 Comments

  1. We’re still trying to determine for sure whether we got in or not, but if we didn’t, rest assured we’ll be taking one of those spots, and be extremely grateful to get it. Thanks, Jack.

    • Well, it shows as #1042, but it also says “order completed”…so I guess we’re good?

  2. That would be great if you would open it up for a few more. It took me 20 minutes to be able to get in. I was able to get signed up but couldn’t figure out how to do 2, one for me and one for my son. So I did mine, and was unable to get back in to get one for him.
    I have to work that day, but will park my tush by the computer at work and call it my lunch break like I did today.

  3. Jack I have been trying to remember how long I have been listening to the show, I started listening right before you made the move to Arkansas, how long ago was that?
    I found you because you did an interview with Dave Canterbury, I have listened to all the shows and look forward to the show everyday!
    Congrats! on the success of PermaEthos!

  4. I just drove back home from my land. Couldn’t figure out how to sign up with a cell phone. Wish these affairs didn’t have to be such circuses.

  5. I took the 20th off work, but couldn’t get today off and missed signing up as I couldn’t get online in time. I am seriously bummed. Sometimes it is not smart to go without a “smart” phone. Those that keep up with the Jone’s have some advantages over old school folks like me. I hope I can make it in on Monday as I’m off work.

  6. Damn, I was in the air until just now from 11 CT. Thought it woukd at least make it through the day. More spots would be greatly appreciated.

  7. Totally not surprised given both the $300 price and potential for the entire PermaEthos model. I would not be surprised to hear that at least 50-100 of the 1,000 already have a PDC certification or (like myself) are currently doing Geoff Lawton’s PDC and will have our PDCs in a month or so. I signed up less than an hour after the email went out and was #424 less than 25 minutes after the door opened for registration.

    • I am currently enrolled in the Geoff Lawton PDC as well, its totally changed my outlook on agriculture, “sustainability”, community…just about everything. Its great to see the PermaEthos PDC get off to such an amazing start. I “poo poo-ed” permaculture years ago when I first heard about it…that all changed when I heard Jack begin to talk about it. I didn’t want to hear it and didn’t think it was for me…boy was I wrong. Its fantastic to potentially have another top notch, apolitical, no mysticism, results based PDC getting ready to launch. Its a windy road and it seems we are all on it!

      • I’ve been aware of Permaculture for almost ten years but I’m just now at the point where I’m starting to really understand it. Geoff has done an amazing job with his PDC (I’m literally listening to him talk about soil right now via his DVDs) and has focused on empirically proven facts and methods.

        My suspicion is that Jack’s thought process on permaculture is similar to the one I have reached — you can only do so much “survival” stuff but ultimate long-term survival really means implementing a permaculture village / county / region / nation where the entire community is resilient and self-sufficient. I think this rings true to many in the MSB community as well and that Jack’s PermaEthos concept could spawn first dozens and later hundreds of permaculture farms and businesses.

        • Yup, its all about the future. Permaculture fits with “prepping” like two pieces of a puzzle. Its amazing stuff, the more you learn the more simple and complex it becomes all at the same time. Thats impossible…and crazy…but its true.

          I am looking forward to another take on the PDC, its going to be fun. I hope everyone trying to get in can make it in. I would venture to say that most of us with fulltime jobs and families probably could not take an in person PDC. Whether its a two week or a several weekend version, it just doesnt work for us. The online PDC, if done right is the way to spread knowledge to a varied demographic.

    • Yep, Dr. Richard,
      I’m one of those, currently in Geoff’s class. My husband signed us up a bit after 2pm. I’m so glad he did. yay!!!

      Jan D.

      • Wow, my response came off way too happy. I’m disappointed for all who had tech problems, or any problem. I’d be happy if there was a second chance for all listeners to be able to sign up at the original price.
        Jan D.

  8. I too tried to get in and didn’t make it. My question is if we get in on Monday will we still be considered a founding member? Thinking for advertising of future business. Thank you

  9. Please open a few more places. I am currently taking Geoff’s PDC, have taken one of your work shops, the bees came last month and we caught a swarm yesterday. This has all been a crazy mess but my husband and I have never been happier. The good this community is spreading, I just can’t put into words. It would mean so much to get a second chance.

  10. I missed out too. I’m so disappointed. I had a feeling it was going to sell out quickly. I really hope you open more spots but I imagine those will sell out even quicker. Dang it, dang it, dang it!!! I really want to do this. I haven’t had such a good feeling about something in a long time.

    • Right there with you. I’m so bummed right now. I’ve been looking forward to this for months, talking it up to family and friends. I am not above groveling at this point. I work again on Monday, but I will move mountains if they try to prevent me from signing up on a second chance.

  11. I’m all for opening it up, but as I said elsewhere, I think the cap on founding memberships needs to remain.

  12. Jack – after thinking about it – there are lots of people that have been with you a LOT longer than many of us that got in today. Active members or the forums and MSB members since day one – and if that were me and if I didn’t get in because of a glitch, I’d be heartbroken. I don’t think there is anything wrong with you being sympathetic to those people. Hell – if there are some people who have earned their slot over the years, send them a link privately so they can be sure to get in. Imagine Steven Harris or Keith Snow, after all they’ve done for the community, not being able to get in as Founding Members because of a Paypal SNAFU or a Fraud Alert on their debit card? That just doesn’t seem right.

    We trust you to be upfront, forthright, and magnanimous about it all. So yeah – do what you think is right! That is why we are all here anyway – because we trust you to do that and your version of “right” is compatible with ours.

  13. Jack, I hope you do open it up for another 200-250, even at the original 300 if you want. While I was able to secure two spots, it could easily have been me that was unable to get in for whatever reason.

  14. You could do something like a series B funding, calling it something like “Founders Reserve” as opposed to the “Founders”. I don’t know just a thought. Plus over time you guys could offer multiple series of selling and at an increasing price every time, up to the full price when it goes live for any and all to sign up.

  15. Jack, if your goal is protecting long-time supporting MSB members, I’m not sure opening the floodgates again will do that. You’re just as likely to have a mad scramble and people with technical issues, etc. It seems like your best bet is going to be applications via email. This would take time on your end, but you could accept for review all emails with a “PermaEthos Application” subject line that are sent on or before 5-26. After sorting the emails, reply to the winners a new web address and give them a few days to complete the transaction and signup process.

    Just my 2 bits, but I think taking the frenzy out of the equation is the only way to protect those long-term supporters, and it sounds like that’s your goal.

    • This is a great idea and as a “Founding Member”, I wouldn’t feel that it cheapened that status at all. If anything, it makes it richer, knowing that you hand picked the others based on merit or circumstance.

      Easy for me to see… I ain’t the guy who has to screen the applications. But again, the only way to make sure some heavy hitters who have long earned their right to become Founding Members actually get in instead of those of us unwashed masses (like myself) is to do it on a case by case basis. Otherwise, it’ll be a stampede all over again on monday.

  16. I also am disappointed. I had the course in my cart but the buy kept timing out. Looking back maybe it would have been better to not set a limit on the number but have the “first day” group as in everyone that bought in the first 24 hours.

    I understand that would have affected the classroom experience but with that many more people maybe you could have hired additional instructors.

    • Yea, I agree. As someone still eagerly hoping they’ll open registration again, I think in hindsight, a time window limit of 24 hours would have worked to more people’s benefits.

  17. Jack, I think the vast majority who were able to sign up will not care. I am grateful to the opportunity to support this venture, take the PDC that is being offered, and be part of something that is going to truely be EPIC in the permaculture world.

  18. Jack, we are all here because we believe in YOU and the community you created! I know you will do what is fair and maintain the spirit of having Founders; if that means opening more slots at a higher rate, then get er done.

  19. A hearty congratulations to Jack and Joe (and Dorathy!) on the rapid sellout, and congratulations to all who got in. I too have been listening since the car days, and desperately hope to get one of the other slots if the chance presents itself again.

  20. If there a way to ensure that those who had the glitch get a spot? If so, I say yes…only concern would be more glitches on Monday and having to open it up to even more people. Again, the more the merrier for certification, but maybe keep the cap at 1000 founders.

  21. I feel that anyone who really tried to get enrolled should be given a chance to do just that. (Of course, I have no idea of the logistics involved of adding more people.) I’ve got a Geoff Lawton PDC, been around the TSP forever, and if I hadn’t gotten in, I would have been sorely disappointed. I had a glitch getting my fiancée enrolled, and Jack (thankfully) responded right away. My luck should be extended…

    • Yep that is impossible. All I can do is say, X time, Y Spots for Z period of time, go for it, hope you got your stuff squared away and now it is closed. Again for those that feel doing this would devalue there position I need to know precisely how other then say oh vanity.

      • You are right. Opening it up for 5000 more founders would devalue, but for a couple hundred more…especially those who have been listening, faithfully following and contributing to the community…is the right thing to do. I can think of no reason it would devalue such an awesome opportunity. (As someone who got her husband in the program at number 973!)

  22. No matter what you do, people will complain. Founding members, longtime supporters and new members are all of equal importance. If you highlight one, another will complain. Hand selection is the way to go, but those not selected can fall into the ‘why not me, am I not important too’ category.

    The person that’s 20th in line on black friday for the $20 widget has NO chance of getting one of three available but they still try, and still think they should have gotten it.

  23. Maybe by preserving your order number would give you status (who ever is number 1 has to be happy), but those of us that missed out due to timeouts would sure like a chance to take the PDC.

  24. Im very glad I got in. Im #88 and I finished at 12:01. I say open it back up this is too good of a thing to have people feel butt hurt over. What is the true difference 1000 founders and 1500 founders?

  25. Jack, good call on buying a Toyota, I have a 2003 Tundra with 450K miles on it and it’s still the best vehicle I have ever owned, I have never had to do anything but basic maintenance to it!
    Toyota is the only car made 100% in USA and the Trucks are made in Texas, you will love it!

    • ohh and the funny thing is I bought my truck from my dad, it had 150K miles on it and when he went to trade it in the dealership only offered him $1500 for it and he called me and asked me if i wanted to buy it for $1500 because he couldn’t see giving it away to a dealership, best $1500 I ever spent!

  26. I tried to sign up while I was at work, but the site was blocked by the company’s firewall. I then tried to use my smartphone, but it turned out not to be smart enough and couldn’t complete the ordering process (too old of a phone, I guess). By the time I got home, the course was sold out. Bummer.

  27. Hey Jack, I know this is all about the first 1,000 on Permaethos, but I doubt there are that many of us from the BOF group that signed up since it is a smaller and newer community. Many of us BOF folks are also MSB members, but what if you subtracted our (BOF) numbers from the overall sign ups to allow a total 1,000 from the MSB. Just a thought, because I would love to see many of these long term members get in on this. The glitches suck and I wish there was a good way to make this happen for people that were really out there trying their best to be there with us for this journey.


    • Appreciate the gesture but it is too complicated. We either do it or we don’t. If we do we announce the time, the price and the time limit. When it closes it closes very hard and it is done. Or we don’t open it, I haven’t made up my mind yet.

      • Jack,
        As a guy that thought he DIDN’T make it, was crushed, then found out I DID make it and was elated, there is only one answer from me- let a few more in. No strings, no conditions, no asterisks by their names. Some of us that don’t use computers much struggle when we do, some of us were working, etc…
        But anyway, I was so glad I made it in. PermaEthos and AgriTrue are both parts of my future plans, and may be for some other people, too.

  28. I received a paypal receipt, but how would I find out my order number? Is at the end of my invoice ID?

  29. Jack,

    I think you may have significantly UNDERESTIMATED the demand for PermaEthos. You just raised $300,000 in 107 minutes. This is an excellent proof of concept. I would strongly recommend you open the door – perhaps through the weekend. Extra revenues will let you do more and would actually make the course more valuable. I know what heavy equipment costs to rent, lease, and buy. You will need the funds. Likewise, there are some areas where extra funds could add a lot of value. As much as I like how Geoff Lawton implemented his online PDC, I was underwhelmed by the aquaculture portion — that is an area where I would like to see more content – particularly on raft and gravel aquaponics systems in year round greenhouses. There is also a need for more hands-on and management content beyond the design layer.

    I am already in the door so it doesn’t impact me. However, it appears you have tapped into something that has larger potential than you may have thought. I also think that there are plenty of MSB members who are disappointed that they didn’t get in and more importantly didn’t even have a chance to get in as there was about two hours between when you sent out your email announcing the signup and when the 1,000 seats sold out all of which were in the middle of a work day such that a lot of people may not have even received the email yet if it went to a personal email and they are still at work.


    Dr. Richard

    • Dr. Richard makes a great point. What the normal PDC doesn’t cover is how to LIVE on a permaculture farm after it is implemented. What is sorely missing are courses on farm management and how to make money on your surplus. One of the biggest hurdle for us wannabe farmers is most of us have to continue to work full time jobs because the farm can’t sustain itself and generate enough of a profit to buy what needs to be purchased (and to pay for healthcare). At least that’s what most of us think.
      If there were a class on how to make a PE farm sustainable and capable of providing full time living wages for a family (or even an extended family) that would be pure gold.

  30. Obviously you underestimated how many have awakened to the sounds of a collapsing industrial civilization Jack. What will make this nation, this world, a better better place if more people are allowed to participate in the rebuilding before collapse?

    As long as you return all of the surplus tuition from the unexpected additional PE founders, back into the the PermaEthos abundance of the founding members. Perhaps inviting other global permaculture big shots as guest teachers? Perhaps additional perks/discounts for more advanced courses in the future?

    Maybe open it for 24 hours on Monday to another 500 MSB members only for $400 (+45 for those who need installments) and then open up the remaining slots to non-MSB folks for $500 (+45 for intallment plan)?

    As for me, the more people that are exposed to permaculture before the collapse, the better my outlook of the future gets.

  31. To those that say keep it at a hard 1000, I’m glad I’m not on the outside of your group. It would no different than saying I have a bunch of food and supplies in a natural disaster, but screw you. Especially since these people we are talking about are already awake and have helped Jack in the past. It’s not taking on a bunch of freeloaders, its keeping the door open just alittle longer to squeeze a few more good people in.

  32. It was unreal. I was Lucky, I was at work and my lunch started a little after this was going to start. I am glad I did not wait until I got home at 4pm I would have missed out.

    My number was in the 700s.

  33. Shane is #88 at 12:01? Good God. If Monday goes like today 250 will go in 5 minutes. I need divine intervention.

  34. Good deal, glad your considering this. 500 is a good round number and good chunk of extra change for Permaethos. I do not think you devalue anything. However, I am not a founding member (yet). I realize there are ambitions for the future with the founding members tightly coupled, but that is the future. Now, putting down roots is the main biz and that starts with the PDC, spreading permaculture and the foundation capital you guys have been so successful bringing in already. Go for a 2nd round! Cheers and happy memorial day weekend all! ~ Jim

  35. I think you should keep it open to MSB. In order to keep the numbers down, maybe you could limit it to one purchase per MSB member at this point. Then at least one member of the family could be a founding member. Their loved ones could follow along and learn the material but wait until the course is offered again to get their certificate.

  36. Jack, I got in at#611. For what it’s worth, I say the more the merrier! 1000, 1200, 1500 founders, it’s all the same to me. More might even be better, since it will mean a larger, stronger pool of people and talent. (And as an aside, I really want a shirt with the Permaethos logo on it).

  37. It will fill up at the speed of light on Monday if they open it up. In fact we will probably warp the fabric of space and time or blow up the servers.
    Duck and cover if you hear a loud bang the servers just blew up. Lol.

  38. so I tried to get the PDC at 1150 CST then at 1155 and then at 1200 noon exactly took me 10 minutes but finally got in and made the purchase I was number 308 and I wanted to be number 1 so badly. I say open it up to MSB members again on Monday I have high speed internet anyone who didn’t probably didn’t have a chance I kept getting timed out. I would even say let MSB members get the PDC for the original $300.00 if they contacted you today but that is just my opinion.

  39. I started the process at 12:30, had no glitches and came out as #695. Glad I was able to be on top of that (and during a 4th grade field trip no less). Doesn’t bother me to add some more (virtual) friends.

    One question, Jack. Do you have any idea when the first module will be available? Not trying to rush you, just curious about the timeline.

  40. I have no issue with doubling the PDC but you were pretty adamant about the 1000 founding members. Its a hard call, but yours to make.

  41. I am so bummed about this I cant even believe it. This was my going to be my birthday present from my Hubby! We just had a baby girl two nights ago and if only we were discharged from the hospital an hour earlier or an hour later, I would have made it. ;/ Oh well, I can’t complain about having a newborn at home!
    Jack I hope you open it back up, or have future classes for such a low price point. While Im super excited about your business model, I mainly want to have a certification and cant afford the 1000-1500k price tag! 🙂 I completely understand if you don’t though, you and the crew have your work cut out for you already.
    Congrats on the blow it out of the water sale!

  42. Jack, just wondering if the next group will have the same benefits as the ‘founding 1000’? If they do (first consideration for future endeavors, etc), that will mean that the first 1000 will now be one of 1500 or however many when being considered for spots on your farms or whatever you offer. I know there’s huge demand, but there’s also a limit to when the founders will stop feeling like that designation has meaning.

    I know it’s next to impossible, but how about a promo code for msb/bof members with user id’s under 100 or whatever you choose?

    • If we open for say 200 more yes. When we do sell the PDC as a course for the next round say early 2015, nope. Founders are a one time deal. That is the point.

      It isn’t like people after that are not going to be highly valued customers, founders just get at the front of the line for all other classes and get discounts on stuff. And some other yet to even be announced perks.

      • I agree, just thought it wise to mention that it would be easy to say, ‘wow that went well, let’s do another thousand’ and eventually the ‘front of the line’ privileges, so to speak, wouldn’t mean much, when there were thousands of others with the same.

        From what you’ve said below in some comments, I think a few hundred more wouldn’t hurt, other than some people’s feelings. Still, I can’t help but think that the problem you suggested (lots of long-time members who couldn’t get in because of various tech issues, etc) will not necessarily be remedied by opening up another feeding frenzy!

        Ok, one more proposal… What about the folks that are on now are ‘phase 1 founding members’, and you run a similar promo for when you’re getting ready to start the next farm, and call them ‘phase 2 founders’?

  43. I definitely think you should open it up. It provides PermaEthos additional funds and allows those that had technical issues a second chance. I was able to geta slot today and I don’t think adding additional slots will devalue the Founders concept.

  44. I’m fairly disappointed as I had it in my cart but to no avail as my smart phone glitches on secure transactions. At work at the time so no chance to get in on the course. Timing this in the middle of the day is difficult at best for us corporate slaves. I have a PDC via Geoff’s course last year so while not a complete loss I was really looking forward to another viewpoint and would have liked to be able to support this venture…

  45. Got in at 149. Take it to whatever number you feel like you can. Dr. Richard made some great points above.

  46. Wow! I had a feeling that it would sellout fast. I did not think so many would act like it was the last loaf of bread. (I was fortunate to get in). (Not barging by no means). But as Jack stated “this is only the beginning”. (Or…wait …. What??) did Jack say that? I digress… I’m sure in the next year or two there will be another offering. Most great things keep going.

    I know this will. But it can’t be done all at once. Slow and steady.

    If everyone that wanted to get in got in then what about next time?

    • I expected it to sell out but I was thinking it would take 3-4 days, not less than 2 hours. This is a stunning vote of confidence. Just based on the revenues today, they could easily go to FSA and get a $300,000 operating loan. Likewise, they could go to CAT or any of the other equipment vendors and lease a full set of heavy equipment (and if they were really creative, get the vendor to give them a better deal and marketing opportunities to sell and finance their equipment to PermaEthos founders and students).

  47. Has anyone proposed a Lottery? Open it up for so many hours for MSB and BOF members only. Then so many hours for the public. Randomly pick so many members and then a smaller percentage of non members. For those who tried, but had technical problems, let them in at $300. For the member Lottery winners a slightly higher price. For the public Lottery winners an even higher price. Just my two cents.

    • I think this is a good idea. No many how many more slots get opened, after what happened today there will be a mad rush to sign up no matter what. Nobody’s going to want to get left out again, and it hasn’t even been made available to non-MSB yet.

      It really bites that so many people are getting left out, but with Jack’s commitment to certification and support some people will be left flapping in the wind. Jack’s got a big decision to make with how handle this, there’s some division in our community in the comments that’s really unfortunate. A lottery would be pretty fair, but no matter what will not satisfy everyone.

  48. First I want to say that I believe you should open up a few more spots for founding members. This is all about raising money to establish the first permaethos farm, and I believe it is the right thing for everyone including those who are already founding members.

    Then I wanted to advocate for the devil.

    By adding additional openings for founding members you are diluting the value of the founding member status. You are breaking your commitment to a ‘hard ceiling’ regarding the number of positions available, and … I could make another point if I felt like arguing for the devil but I do not.

    Congratulations on your success Jack, Josiah, Nick, and the whole permaethos team. I am happy for you and looking forward to do all I can to help make permathos a monumental success.

    • Okay so tell me exactly HOW I dilute the value other than from an emotional stand point with 200 more founders? If we went beyond capacity say 5K we would but 200 exactly how is the value to any founder diluted by what mechanism. I mean there is NO WAY we get 100% pull though for every additional thing we do. At 1200 every founder is pretty much in on any and all online courses they ever want EVER as in as long as we exist.

      I guess with ON SITE courses it could increase competition but we can handle 100 at the farm for an event with enough demand or just do two of them, it would be necessary for about 9% of all members to want to attend one ON SITE event for there to be a conflict and if it happened rest assured we are not dumb and want to make money so we would run two of 60 before we ran one with 80 and cut 40 out.

      I guess the ONLY place it might matter is if a founder was competing to put in a farm, had budget and was in a tie breaker situation with a founder that got in late. LONG ODDS.

      On the remote element partners I don’t see anyway we have enough people actually do the work and set up a business to reach a cap when ONLY drawing from founders even if we doubled them and we won’t. Keep in mind many people bought two or three in one family, they would be one business unit.

      I mean if someone can show me a concrete example of how we damage any founders ACTUAL vs. perceived value by adding say 200 we absolutely won’t do it. I just don’t see it and again if we do open it then it will be 66% more expensive and we are considering sequestering about 10K of the revenue for some specific value add for all founders. Something totally exclusive to them.

  49. I can only imagine what people went through today to sign up…my day was a comedy of errors and life with kids…strep throught. ..doctors appointments,memorial day day traffic jam somehow,several attempts to sign up including one where i dropped my cellphone causing it to explode yardsale style while in line at a pharmacy drive-through…somehow i got through on my last hail Mary pass attempt

  50. Well I just checked my PayPal account and it says funds were transferred from my credit union accout to Permaethos LLC ….. so I guess I’m in.

    I say let more in. Isn’t the whole Permaethos vision to spread permaculture across the country, the world? The added income can be used to bring Geoff Lawton or Bill Mollison himself or other permaculture celebrities to give a guest lecture or maybe better discounts for advanced courses in the future or use it to build a permaculture plant database. Surely Jack you can think of some way to return the surplus tuition to build and spread the Permaethos community.

  51. Has anyone made sure Josiah hasn’t had a heart attack? I haven’t seen an update on PE since before the launch…

  52. I’m one of the lucky who managed to get in. I think from a practical point of view the limiting factors are:

    How many people can Nick and Jack effectively do Q&A for at one time for the PDC?

    And how much money can they manage and use efficiently?

    Inside of those limitations I welcome all of those that are excited about this opportunity.

    While adding more people does diminish the value of the “all else equal a founding member gets an opportunity first” principle, I think it’s a small concession to make in order to grow this motivated community.

    Another option is to do a second round of the PDC after this one is completed. Use the same DVDs and add some value with updates of the progress since the DVDs were made. This will limit the classroom size so that all the students are served.

    • Question one, no problem at all. 80% of the Qs are the same over and over, we will have an archive.

      Question two, oh, well, I am a good money manager, we don’t have too much for sure and if we have to wait a while to use some of it it keeps pretty well.

      • I’m comfortable with what you are. If you think there’s the capacity, let’s use it.

  53. As one of the ones who “shouldn’t” have gotten in but did (#1049), I feel for the folks who didn’t get to complete their orders ahead of me. That said, that’s the nature of e-commerce and the agreement was 1,000 students, no more.

    I signed up for the PDC more than the founder role, around 80%/20% motivation for each factor. Diluting the founder value is one possible outcome of adding more people. It’s also possible that adding more will accelerate Permaethos to the benefit of all. No way of telling and that experiment can play out either way for all I care.

    If you add another 200-300 students, generating say another $100K, it would be nice to devote a fraction of the windfall to add some additional value to the course itself, like adding another person to the Q&A segments to produce them faster/more frequently. Or fly in some guest presenters to the farm (like Geoff Lawton, Paul Wheaton, Ben Falk, or Mark Shepard) to film a segment or two.

    Using additional members’ fees to add value for all seems fair to the original 1,000. Make the PDC better and I won’t care how many you add.

  54. I’ve been a listener since back in the Jetta days but only recently joined MSB – mainly for purposes of getting a shot at PermaEthos. Fortunately was successful this afternoon and jumped in at #160 – a mere 8 minutes into things.

    With that said I have no qualms opening things back up – whether we’re only 1000, 1500, or 2000 it’s still a pretty damn exclusive group. I have high expectations for the course and no reason to doubt whatever decision Jack makes. If nothing else I’m certain the added initial investment will only serve to make things more successful and ultimately provide us all a bigger bang for our buck (which is already pretty darn good at $300).

    As an aside I spent 10 years in education management with a global pioneer in online education – the reality is that for the type of online delivery that is going to be used it should make no difference in course quality whether it’s 1000 or 2000 students.

    WhooHoo – Go PermaEthos!

  55. Just saw Jesse’s post further up…do whatever but I second the motion the added revenue you go ahead and throw some PermaEthos t-shirt (or cap) into the deal for us all! JK 🙂

  56. Jack, you will catch hell no matter what you Do. But lets stick to the Facts.
    Fact 1 You advertised a Cap of 1000 for founders and took peoples money on that premise. (So the first 1000 get a title of “Founder” and future discounts TBD.)
    Fact 2 You did say you may offer this course later at a higher price. ( So if you open it up Monday at a higher price even $300.01 you kept your word)
    I wish all that want it could take it. I think the more the better for our country.

    You dilemma
    Reminds me of the story of the old man and his grandson riding a Donkey. Maybe Donkey story Later

    • I respectfully disagree. I don’t think he will catch hell if he opens it to more people.

      In fact, I think in the end, we all catch hell if he does not open it to more people.

      • I’m not saying Don’t open it up. BUT All it takes is one person after they finish the course to claim fraud because it was advertised as 1000 cap. I just want Jack to legally protect himself. Call the 1001+ people anything other than “Founders” and charge them at least .01 More.

      • That’s a good point. I just didn’t think anyone in the group would cry fraud.

        I suppose Jack could send an email to the 1000 that got in and ask for all to sign a fraud waivier or something like that. At that point he could offer a full refund to any who felt that letting more people in would develu their purchase.

        I’m sure everything will work out once all is said and done however.

    • Yes, you’re in as long as your payment went through. Some people attempted to sign up and tried to pay but their bank or Paypal wouldn’t process their payment. So the number of attempted signups was over 1,000 but the number of paid sign-ups was only 1,000.

  57. After 25 minutes, I was able to get in on my cell connection, but…wow. I am grateful for the opportunity to be a part of PE, but I think the supply and demand curve was miscalculated. I would have paid $500 for this opportunity, but glad to get it for less of course. I hope more folks are able to experience it, and I’m looking forward to what lies ahead.

  58. How about just a time limit of the end of the month?
    Sell as much as you can @ $400.
    Who cares if you hit 3,000 and have a million bucks to use to kick start this? Save some for #2, 3, etc.

    • There’s the logistical issue of someone having to review the completed submissions at the end of the class. If there are too many you run the risk of lower quality being accepted or not getting meaningful feedback on your submission.

      • True, there is a risk of that. But as Jack mentioned in one of the last podcast updates, it stands to reason that a contingent of the class will only be there for the learning material, and not necessarily there for the full PDC certification. And are those families with multiple founding members truly anticipating creating an individual design?

        I could be wrong….I just know I want to join, and I’m hoping the proverbial squeaky wheel gets the grease in this instance.

  59. I got in, but it may have been easier to get OBama care! Lots of reloads later, I’m in!

  60. Jack, glad to see you got the support you needed. I tried to get in there, but I think the server was at max capacity. I skipped Geoffs PDC hoping to both support and be a part of your PermaEthos Course. I’m in if you let more of the Brigade in, if not, guess I’ll catch the next one.

  61. Ah, I’m feeling kind of gut punched. I can’t believe I missed this sign up. I was at work when the e-mails went out, and by the time I rushed home, all the spots were gone. Please open some more spots, I really want to be involved and contribute…I knew that since the first iteration of PE was being thought up last year.

    I work again Monday as well, but if given fair warning, I will sit by computer, diligently refreshing the sign up page, until I get my chance. I don’t mean to overplay my emotions, but I haven’t felt this crestfallen in a while. In my mind, I was already signed up.

  62. Hey Jack – as one of the persistent (and lucky ones) who got it I’d like to chime in and say I have NO problem with you opening up another few hundred slots for MSB supporters. I – like probably many – bought 2 spaces in the PDC (one for my son) which means you don’t have 1000 “families” in your founding membership just 1000 people. Many of those will be “lost” to attrition over the months and years ahead as they lose interest or life gets in the way of their taking full advantage of this opportunity. Having a few hundred more will help keep the numbers up long term. This thing is too important to be petty and say “I got mine, you can’t have yours”. We need numbers and we need capital to get Permaethos off to a spectacular start. Open the door a little more and start setting your stretch goals for Elijah Springs.

    • Matt, very good point. I be there is a pretty high percentage of double purchases. I don’t think it would water things down too much to take it to 1500 or 2000. My only concern is how they’ll be able to grade and offer feedback on the end-of-course submissions.
      That said, when are the “PermaEthos Founder” t-shirts, hoodies, jackets, and hats going to be available?

  63. I was fortunate enough to be able to get in early and purchase the PDC and become a founding member #382 of PermaEthos today. You asked for some opinions so here is my 2 cents.
    I think the more members we have doing this work the better off we all are. With that being said I still think you should hold the Founding members at 1000. If you want to open up more slots for more members then they should be Secondary Founders. They would have all the same privileges as Primary Founders EXCEPT when it comes down to deciding between services and products being supplied to the PermaEthos community. If a Primary founder is able to provide a product or service of equal value as a Secondary founder, the Primary founder should get the nod. If there are classes being offered the Primary members get first dibs, just like MSB members do over the general listeners. Other than that, the more the merrier. Time to change the world!

    • I completely agree. I missed the boat on this one. I am out of the country right now and got mixed up with the time differences. In the end, that’s my fault. I would love to be involved in this and if the opportunity arises again, I will try my best. I really like the idea of a tiered system. The founders don’t lose any value at all (I think even the emotional value is important.), more people are allowed in, “tier two” founders could have all of the same benefits at a lower level (slightly smaller discounts, positions in courses right behind the tier one founders, etc…). I think it’s a win-win all around. Even if Jack opened it up to another 1,000, there would be 1,000 tier one founders and 1,000 tier two founders. He could keep doing that until the interest is gone, just adding tiers up to the point that it would be too difficult to review plan submissions.

  64. I just hate that I missed out on the opportunity because I was at work. I figured being in the MSB would secure me at least an 8 hour window of opportunity to sign up. While my opinion is obviously influenced by the fact I haven’t gotten in, I do think interest in PermaEthos was greatly underestimated, and I’d love to get a chance to sign up and build with all you guys.

  65. I really do not know how I made it in myself. Only been a member of MSB for 2 weeks. I joined to help support this and be able to have first crack at the PDC. I was at work where I could not use a computer so I tried with my crappy old cell phone and made it in at 982! Then I could not get to PayPal with my cell so I ran to my friend and borrowed his cell phone. I feel for long time members who were not so fortunate. I am all for opening it up for other MSB members for sure.

  66. My personal feeling is that any MSB member that wants in should get in. I got into at around 460 or so but I was off work today.

  67. After putting my wife thru Geoff’s first class last year, then scheming, scraping, and finally raiding the Bug Out Cash this year to get myself and our 2 sons (one in Hawaii & one just in from Costa Rica) enrolled in Geoff’s class this year, it was a daunting task as she recovers from shoulder surgery to figger out how to also get 3 Founder spots paid for in this incredible opportunity. Finally figured it out and got all the pieces in place just this morning Central time, only to get home from work to find the Door had already closed. Bummer.

    My wife and I are 60ish, and have no plans to slow down. Ever. Our two extremely capable remote Alaska born & raised sons are our pride and joy. We wanted this for them even more than for us, but we’ll get over it, and so will they.

    I trust Jack. I trust the people Jack trusts. I believe they are people of integrity. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be so disappointed to be on the Outside looking in. On the other hand, after reading some of the (very few) “bar the door” posts, I can feel somewhat better about that… (wink).

    Whether they crack open the Door again for a bit or not, my trust & respect for them won’t be affected by an administrative tweak that seems to be in the overall interest of what I thought was the Goal here; to initiate a whole new PermaCulture/Ethos/Whatever model. Call it what you will, it’s something sorely lacking, at least in this country, and last time I checked, (all other Important Things being equal) “mo’ money mo’ betta…”. I was gratified to read that so many others seem to share that sentiment as well. Good on all ya’ll…

    So, if an additional opportunity to get in IS offered, and we (or even one of us) are successful, we will all be deeply grateful, no matter what Label or Status (or lack thereof…) we may have to live with going forward. But if not, we still go forward… Win/Win.

    To Jack… sincere blessings on you and all your House. Do your thang brother.

  68. Jack if you truly think the cadre can handle the extra people then let them in. The extra money will allow the farm to do more faster and/or have a larger safety net. That being said, I do feel like everyone was provided with waaaay more than fair warning as to when the spots would open up, and if they took the risk of doing anything other than trying to buy in at 1200CST then it’s on them. In the end, the success of this endeavor is more important than any butt hurt that occurs from you letting more people in (mine or anyone else’s). Just make sure the pipes don’t get full!

  69. Damn you sorry good for nothing workplace : D Here I was thinking I could get in when I get off of work today. Oh well.

  70. I think it comes down to people care……The 1000 of us that were lucky to get in are cared for. There are many who missed out that deserve a spot in this amazing event that need to be taken care of. Who knew this would be so successful!!! We should celebrate that and change the number of founding farmers…..I am very proud to be a part of this and feel in the years to come, my friends and family will be proud to say they know someone that was part of the founding farmers…..1,000 – 1,200 or 1,500 it’s still a very small group out of 7+ billion that can say they were there at the beginning and are making the world a better place with the help of the Permaethos team.

    I for one will be willing to submit my design at a later date if that helps to ease the pressure. I am taking Geoff Lawtons online PDC right now, so will be the proud owner of a certificate soon enough.

  71. wow … I was on the road this afternoon and figured that I would have some time to get in — you know less than 10 hours from when it opened…. I was at a great nursery buying fruit trees on the way home from a family event when the course sold out.

  72. Hey Jack, thanks ever so much for this opportunity…though at 30mins after open and several miss attempts in PayPal I’m #615…go ahead and give a gracious handful of MSB’ers the extension…another thousand “founders” is still an exclusive group compared to the total downloads your podcast receive daily. I don’t think this will cheapen the experience…we all know you to be a man of honor and your word/handshake is your bond. I for one “Founder” will NOT hold this, opening more slots, against you…please take your bride out for a celebratory dinner…it is well deserved for this amazing kick off for PermaEthos!!! Blessing to all who made this opportunity happen and to Jack and partners of PE.
    Rick in western Colorado.

  73. I am new to TSP, still playing catch up, and if I get in at all would be as general public later but am glad to see overwhelming support for a great thing that Jack and others are creating. Can’t wait to see where it goes. I can’t help but notice some people that got in today replied with a ‘to bad so sad, bar the doors, fair warning was given’ kind of mentality. Why the sense of entitlement and greed towards others? I would first ask the question for the sake of asking “Is that an element that I want to be part of new design (yet to evolve) or not? Does it have a benefit to anything in the system?” I realize that I have not been here long enough to observe everything thoroughly but even as a newby, my answer is a clear simple question, “Why let herbicide get on your plant starts right before getting them in the ground?” Hmm… Sounds like ya got a lot on your plate but I wouldn’t judge you Jack if you give the ‘Founder’ spots of the ones who posted like that to the people who you see fit but didn’t get in. You’ve earned that for getting all this going. I might be wrong or I might be right, but I’m just sayin’. Till the next Ethos project, peace y’all, I’m out.

  74. I know I am being pissy about this, BUT.
    I applaud Jack for a great business decision on the PDC. To have such great demand is unbelievable. Way to go.
    On the other hand, I have been planning on this course since the first day Jack announced it. But being a regular working person who cannot set by their computer during the day, I feel like I just got kicked in the groin.
    I had planned upon selling my business to move into the development business given my building background. Guess I will go somewhere else.

    • ya i feel the same way, I was expecting atleast 48hours to sign up but whatever, im very dissapointed/pissed about missing it but such is life.

  75. Don’t you dare cross over the “If you like your healthcare …”line….you can never go back. You said 1000…mean 1000…”Period”…go back and listen to your own show. I am not a computer wiz and I found it very easy. It is not like you are saying “no”…they are just going to have to wait. We 1000 stepped up…make it mean what you said it would. Trust me, as someone who is trying to get a farm off the ground myself…you will need the money 4 months from now just as much.

    • You know what I think that there just made up my mind for me and NOT the way you intended.

      This isn’t about the need for money by the way.

      If you don’t like our decision or the rational we post for it let me know, I will be happy to fix it for you by refunding you.

      • My only point is that in this world when we can’t even trust our leaders…I trust you. You were very clear how this was going to work yesterday and I went out of my way to make it work. I know it is not about the money…you misunderstood my. My point was that there will be lots if opportunity for many more folks in the future..and the good that the money can do then will be needed as well. You were trying to build something special with the 1000…don’t dilute it. I am so committed to this concept that I uprooted my family and moved to a farm in your home state of PA so please do not misunderstand my point. Kinda of sad to hear about the Jetta…I was there for a lot of those shows.

        • Some of us trusted Jack when he assured us it wouldn’t sell out right away. There were plenty of people who tried to step up.

          So which is more important?

        • “Some of us trusted Jack when he assured us it wouldn’t sell out right away. ”

          There were a number of folks at work (Friday? A “workday” for the average joe? Huh. I guess I should have taken vacation?)

          I too, was under the impression that 1000 would be “plenty” and that I’d have an opportunity to sign up later. After Work. Then again, 90,000+ listeners, great PDC, discounted prices, 3 per family – I suppose (given the Knife thing, 6 minutes after “opening” and it’s completely closed out?) – I suppose now, Jack – I’m surprised that $300,000 took so long for you to make!

          I for one don’t necessarily care about “being special” and “giving myself a fancy name [founding member]” – but the price discount was within my budget – $1,000 is not (not at this time, anyway).

          “We 1000 stepped up…” – Yeah, not real impressed. If I (and who knows how many more) hadn’t had to work, perhaps there’d been that many more “over the 1000 mark” who “somehow got in” –

          Next time Jack, *please* don’t open the thing on a freaking work day. Otherwise, thanks for all you do.

          I didn’t have a family to uproot, but I bought a small place to farm, on the basis of all the HOPE that you’ve given me and others over the years. (incidentally, starting a farm from scratch is @#%^!@ expensive, and hard when you’re doing it alone, no help, and working 50+ hours a week. Maybe I’m doing it wrong).

      • And if you want to take my slot for voicing my opinion …go ahead. Your the one that asked to hear from us that were blessed enough to make it. Sorry you didn’t like what I had to say. No disrespect was meant.

        • I didn’t like it that doesn’t mean you are not entitled to it. And don’t be a tea cup, I have no intention of TAKING anyone’s slot, I am saying that if we do open it up and IF YOU FEEL cheated, and you want a refund that YOU can have one.

          In fact anyone that just wants one frankly even just because they changed their minds for any reason could have one in the next month or two and we would sell their spot to someone who did want it.

          The reason for my response is your opinion sounds, and you won’t like this, petty.

          A minority keep using words like dilute the value but I have kept asking for a concrete non emotional non vanity based way of HOW that would happen, I have had no answer to that question. Do you have one?

          Oh and if you don’t trust me, specifically to make hard decisions and to do so based on new information, you should not be involved at all.

          I might say “we are going to put a damn in that spot” but if we test dig and find a gravel bed we change the plan.

      • Look Jack, these are the last key strokes I am wasting on this and I wouldn’t have bothered but you called ME a teacup….really? How about the …oh my computer crashed, I couldn’t get a note from my mom, my boss is mean, Oh, Jack said it wouldn’t sell out, I overslept….blah blah blah! TEACUPS abound. As far as diloution? Just your words brother…right from your show on Thurs ” That said, the limit of 1,000 members is a HARD CEILING, we will not raise it so when they do sell out they are gone.” Guess the’re not all gone and ceiling isn’t so hard is it Mr. President (guess maybe you shouldn’t of used all caps…ya know …like you mean it? And if you feel better about yourself by calling me petty…party on! Guess we found out the real dolution….I know gone doesn’t mean gone…hard doesn’t mean that hard…period doesn’t mean period…an oh, that line in the sand. You had already made your mind up so why in the world did you even ask? Just never thought I would see this from you…YOU are bowing to the teacups….what happens to number 1201 on Monday? Oh I know…you really mean it this time…no really.

        • Your comment seemed petty, spiteful and mean. It was “screw everyone” and compared me to Barock Obama. Pretty much my response was F-U and you know what as to your original comment it still is.

          Doesn’t mean you were wrong about the final decision though. I responded as I did because you were being an asshole, with no care or consideration for others.

          You also make assumptions that are faulty, “I already made up my mind huh”.

          Guess you didn’t read this,

          Pay particular attention to the bullet points, it should make you happy and make you see in the end we actually agree with your premise, you were still being a hateful dick in how you presented it.

          So if you want a refund let me know, or get over it.

  76. since folks seem to be chiming in here… I’ll add my two cents. I feel for the folks who wanted to participate but were unable to do so. However I was pretty sure this was going to happen so I scheduled meetings etc around signing up! 😉 I was lucky enough to get in and am thankful. I feel opening it back up takes away a bit from the efforts made by us who did get in and who really wanted to be a part of that special 1000 founders. It was important to me to be one of the 1000 and I did what I needed to do to make it happen… I suppose I’m being a bit of a baby, but I’ve been thinking about it all day and that’s what I keep coming up with. I also understand the extra money is helpful to the projects etc.

  77. Took Wednesday off from work to be able to sign up. Then it got postponed til today at 12 and couldn’t get today off. Then went in several times and tried to sign up but it was too slow response. So I tried back a little later. Then it says sold out. SO bummed. Haven’t looked forward to something like this for a long time. Been listening to TSP daily for many years now. Was MSB on and off for several years. Very disappointed. I renewed my MSB last week just for this PDC. Please open it up for 1000 more slots of just PDC. I don’t care about being a founding member of PermaEthos. But just wanted the PDC for $300. $400 is fine too. But can’t afford to do a $1000 one. Thank you for all your work. And congrats on the success of the first 1000 founders $300K.

  78. Wow! the first time I tried to purchase I was order #981. I got an error about PayPal so I logged back in and started a new order. 10 min later I was able to complete my order but I was Order # 1008. Arrgh!.
    What was that saying? …….”missed it by THAT much!”

    I hope they increase the founding members number, but if not, I’m still really happy for Jack and all the PermaEthos crew. It’s nice to know that this community is so willing to commit their time and money to such a positive and proactive project. I’m glad to be a part of it.

    • That is cool. I had the same problem with PayPal. My first order # 982. PayPal locked up and my second order # was 1024.

  79. I had to work. I had only internet cell phone access while I drove for 7 hours today. The MSB link just kept freezing. I tried for hours and hours. I wasn’t able to schedule off. Everyone’s circumstance is different. I have been listening for 4 years and this was very important to me. I have 5 acres and bought this 5 acres from Jack’s inspiration. I made a move from FLorida to North Carolina because of Jack’s inspiration. There isn’t anything about stepping up or whatever nonsense. I did the best I could. I am grateful for the opportunity on Monday and if I get in it will be fitting as I am a vet.

  80. hey jack congratulations!!!
    Not only did you fill out but in awesome time!!
    seriously i think you and everybody else working on this should be very proud of the start that this day has giving you.
    and even though i did not get in i would say keep it at a thousand people its a good solid number too start and it wont be the last of the sign ups.
    i know i will def be taking the day off on the next round of available positions!!

  81. PDC video only for $300 – without the “Certificate” or teacher interaction? Jack, here’s another thought – only sell the videos-audios for the PDC for $300 — sort of like Marjory Wildcraft’s Backyard Food Production (which I purchased). I am not really interested in PDC “certification” or even interaction with the instructors, just in the knowledge. Not interested in being a PermaEthos “Founder”. I was going to spend the $199 to get the PermacultureVoices videos via the MSB discount until I decided to do your PDC. Could you please just offer DVD or streaming access to the PDC videos only? Hoping to sign up via Monday’s $400 new price, but am not hopeful since your server was so slow to respond today with OpenDNS website not available messages for much of the time.

    • Okay here is what we are NEVER doing, we are never selling the PDC without a cert or support. There will be opportunities on the PDC in the future we always said so. There will be certification. It will cost a lot more too. It also will not make someone a founder.

      • I was going to suggest the same thing as Dorjay. What’s the reasoning behind not selling the video content alone?

        Will future PDCs be based off the Elisha Springs material? If so then not offering a non-cert option makes more sense to me.

  82. I signed up while sitting in a golf cart laying out perimeter and cross fencing at my 13 acre permaculture farm. I don’t have any opinions. I’m just happy to be a part of the self-reliant living movement.

  83. How about open up another 1,000 for $300 but they don’t get to call themselves “Founding Members”? While I tried to get in on the 1,000 the PDC is more important that being a “Founding Member”.

    • I like this option. Use the first $300k on Elisha’s Spring and the second $300k to get farms 2&3 off the ground next year. Hire a couple people you trust to go over designs if 2000 is too heavy a load.

  84. I thought 1,000 was to low to begin with. I think you could add another 1,000 and still have more demand. I purposely held off on Geoff Lawton’s PDC because I knew this was coming up. Sorry to those who didn’t get in. I’d share mine if I could.

    Thanks for all the hard work Jack, you’ve really inspired me. I finally got off my butt this year and started my own business. Next year we hope to buy a farm.

  85. Anyway to find out how many MSB members want in but weren’t able to? I’m an MSB member who feels left in the dust.

  86. I would pay $700, right now, to be a founding member and take this course. I honestly didn’t think it would sell out so fast and I was going to sign up in the evening when I had access to desktop. Wow! I am so stoked for you Jack!!!!

  87. Even though I’m sure the decision has already been made, I’d like to add that I support giving the MSB and BoF members another chance to sign up.

    If the course had been launched Tuesday, I would have been out of state and SOL. I don’t like the idea of beating out other members of the MSB. They are likely the type of people I would really enjoying knowing.

    However, I do think a price increase is completely fair. I have my own business and told my best customer I couldn’t make it today just so I could sign up for the PDC.

  88. I was hoping to sign up, but I drive truck and work nights. kept checking my email in the morning after I got off work. I finally had to go to bed so I could go back to work tonight. The thing launched and sold out while I slept. Guess I missed it. I’ll give Monday a try, really bummed about it.

  89. Yes, open it up for more to take the course and get certified. However, the first 1000 are founders and only the founders as it was offered this way. In hind sight, noon Friday kept some from getting a chance to sign up (me included). Maybe, midnight next time. Well, this may make it difficult for those on the other side of the globe, never mind. It was a selfish suggestion. I was over confident and told people I’d be taking this course, now what do I tell them? This permaculture thing is in such demand that it sold out in less than 3 hours. Yah, that sounds about right.

  90. I guess hindsight: maybe 1000 founder (MSB or BOF) special price and 200 to 300 non MSB or BOF peoples at a student rate, They would just be students. And may or may not be members of MSB or BOF. With no founding benefit. That is the way I look at it.

  91. I’m getting a chuckle out of the amount of entitlement I see in this thread. XYZ “deserved” a slot.

    It’s great juxtaposed against Jack’s normal talk about whiners and a do-ocracy.