PDC Sold Out Officially at 2:47 PM — 229 Comments

  1. Please add me to the list of folks who got shut out of the PDC course. I’ve been a member for a few years, former active duty Air Force but never asked for a discount on my membership (price seemed fair for the content offered). I’ve been patiently waiting for the course to open but it happened while I was scrubbed in surgery as I work as a surgeon. It doesn’t seem right that some folks bought more than one course while other members were shut out. Being a founding member is important to me…I haven’t missed an episode for the past few weeks listening for any hint of when the course would open. There was no way to be on June computer while I was in surgery. As soon as I got out of the OR, I checked my iPhone for an update and it was sold out already. Please consider expanding the founding membership to MSB members who were shut out while others purchased more than one course. Thank you kindly, truly appreciate all you do. We have 147 acres less than an hour from Elijah Springs that we have already started earthworks on for our permaculture design and would love to share in the experience to learn what works with thought terrain. Peace, Mara

  2. Jack, congrats. I’m taking Geoff’s course right now but am convinced that PermaEthos is worth the investment that I wanted to be on the ground floor. Had issues at 1207 but finally got in at 1328. I was shocked when I saw the number 896. I am more concerned about the capitalization of PermaEthos than its exclusivity. I agree with opening up the course to as many spots as you feel you can adequately handle. Use your best judgement…it’s always served you well.

  3. Boo and hiss. I’ve been looking forward to this since it was first announced. I respect that the founding members have to be kept at a reasonable number but the whole thing sold out while I was at work. Bummer.

  4. If you open it up again what time Monday. Seen email at 3 today thought OK but sold out

  5. I was thinking the same thing about the “tea cups”…somebody has to be 1001…

  6. I too am upset that some people got to purchase multiple spots which left none for those of use who were at work today. I am an ICU nurse and was too busy saving some ones life today to get on the computer. Hopefully this can be rectified so more people can benefit from this course. I think it needs to be limited to 1 per member.

    • I agree with you, Kim. I’m a surgeon and was scrubbed in surgery when the course opened. I couldn’t be more disappointed that long time members where shut out while others purchased multiple courses. My gut says Jack will make it right.

  7. I am in if it opens back up. I personally dont feel entitled to a spot, i want to support this venture and be involved moving forward. Not able to check email ect at work why i was not n this go around. I think it is awesome that there is this much support for this cause and course. Great job Jack!

  8. Wow. I just read through another long lists of posts.

    I was a lucky one at #577 but you have to open it up for more poeple Jack. In fact, I think you could open it up to another 1000 on Monday and it would sell out again and you would still have the same problem because those with banking issues would be unable to resolve their problems for at least another week.

    Rather than having capped it to a specific number of people …. you should cap it to a date and time deadline. However many founders you get within that dealine is how many founders there will be.

  9. After reading all of the comments it would have been better one per msb account or per household. How many people are listeners that purchased a slot for him/herself and also a slot or possibly two for a family member. How useful is that going to be in comparison with getting all of the folks who actually listen to jack on a daily basis. Not that you can’t persuade your love ones on the opportunity that this can bring, people are generally easily swayed by such an opportunity as if you have the inside scoop on something enormously undervalued. I understand that this being open to family was something Jack has been saying for a while, but put yourself on the other side of the fence if you were one of the 1000. I myself have 3 or 4 PDC purchases I could facilitate me paying for 2 and 1 for sure person and 1 possible. What if I had got them and myself in and you were out! Demand was underestimated without doubt. The best idea is to increase the value to the first 1000 by adding guests and perhaps even more behind the scenes staff and make this (as if it isn’t already) the best thing to happen to many people their entire life. The demand and funds are there all that needs done is to bring in the talent to get the job done. With that kind of cash you could get another team and move this thing up a notch. It seems that maybe Jack and the 1000 may miss an opportunity to pick up the fallen comrades and create a group that can truly change the world for the better proving to be what we all want. You have said that if you I listen long enough you are bound to piss me off at some point. I wont be pissed, but I will be dissapointed and demoralized. Anyway until Monday and good luck to you all if it opens and if you want in.

  10. So…I made it in and I am very excited. I am currently taking Geoff Lawtons online course and just have two quick comments for all who care to read this.

    1. If you did not get in, and Jack does not open more spots, or if he does and you still do not get in…dont be discouraged! Wait it out, I am sure there will be another round. In the meantime, do a few things. First continue to listen to TSP and cherish those permaculture themed podcasts. Second, take that money, actually about a third of that money, and buy Bill Mollisons Permaculture Designers Manual. This book is the basis of the PDC and is incredible. Its a book, so its not as “entertaining” as a live speaker or a video but I promise you if you read it you will be amazed. Third, search out credible permaculture podcasts to supplement your independent learning. Diego Footer has a great podcast, he is the Permaculture Voices guy. He has some really solid podcasts with some well known names. Paul Wheaton also has some great podcasts with some well known names. Paul is also of the “do it if it works and dont be all metaphysical about it” permaculture crowd. Fourth, be wary of forums! Read forums and take info with a grain of salt. Example, folks love to use degree of slope and percentage of slope interchangeably on forums…these are very different things and will greatly effect how you design. A sixteen percent slope is not a 16 degree slope…but in interweb forum land mistakes are made and folks get confused, especially new folks…like me. I learned the hard way on more issues than one…be careful reading forums to support your learning.

    Ok, and point two…

    2. To those who are making a stink over opening the course to a few more folks.
    Care for the earth
    Care for the people
    Return of surplus

    I am a student like we all are, not trying jump on a soapbox, but lets try to remember what this is all about in the end. I would gladly give up my “founder” spot to someone who has been an MSB member longer as long as I can stay in the course.

  11. I didn’t see the email with the sign up link until it was too late
    because my computer had problems.

  12. Jack,

    Wow! Congratulations! I bet you just shook up the permaculture world.

    I don’t know what barriers there may be to letting in more folks but it seems to me that if the goal is exposing the maximum number of people to permaculture principles and design, with the greater goal being “permaculture nation/permaculture world” then why not just open the floodgates? I understand there are logistical and probably technical limits but those problems can be opportunities…no? Let the first 1000 be the founding members but why not figure out a way to get this snowball rolling and let more people in. The exponential effect is an awesome power.

  13. This morning I offered an older gent to check out in front of me at Home Depot. He said, ‘Nice guys finish last, stay where you are!’ I said, ‘As long as I finish I’ll be fine’. That seemed to disturb him considerably. Then I got #469 in permaethos! Luck and karma on my side, LOL. Bless ya’ll…

  14. Excellent point jamen …

    This problem is not about being part of an elite goup of 1000.

    It’s all about –
    Care for the earth
    Care for the people
    Return of surplus

    Hopefully, Jack will turn the problem into the solution.

  15. I hope we can get Ma signed up on Monday. I am currently taking Geoff’s oPDC and she was to take this one. 2014 was going to be the year of the PDC on OffKilterAcres I hope it still can be. Thanks Jack and Josiah for everything you all are doing for us!

  16. Hi there. Your recent order on PermaEthos Learning Center has been completed. Your order details are shown below for your reference:

    Order: #543
    Hahahahahaah got it!

  17. I was fortunate to have successfully registered earlier, and have previously posted my support for opening registration back up.

    I must respectfully say, after spending some time this evening getting caught up on the comments, that I’m truly surprised by the number of folks so hung-up on the “Founding Member” designation. In the grand scheme of things I just fail to see how 1250, 1400, or 1500 Founders is any less special? Folks…we’re trying to start a movement, to pioneer something truly paradigm altering – be it personally or globally – and 1000+ folks out of 318million Americans (and let’s not forget we have acre like minded global friends joining us) is barely a blip. For reality check only 30%-40% of the Colonists supported the American Revolution – that ratio makes us pale by comparison. We need all the like minded “permaculture patriots” we can find to be successful!

    Granted I’ve never really cared much about whether I was part of the “cool” crowd but I just don’t see the reason for hurt feelings. With the exception of one lone comment positing the thought that additional Founders could potentially affect future incremental revenue flow as a result of the Founders discounts, I’ve not seen a single comment with any concrete justification for limiting this status – other than apparently a desire to remain “cool”.

    I believe Jack to be a man of integrity, honesty, and sound business acumen. And, while I’m but a neophyte in my journey to self reliance and freedm from the shackles of corporate life, Jack’s wisdom and guidance has served me well thus far. No reason to doubt him now.

    No offense to anyone with opposing view points – I’m very muck looking forward to learning from everyone and hope t meet many in the journey to come. I just want to make sure we don’t lost sight of the larger goal/prize, the open source concept Jack has committed to, and the PermaEthos/Permaculture Ethics.

    Best Success To All!

  18. It happened to me too, I was working today. Figured I would have a chance to sign up when I got home this evening, yeah not so much.

  19. I got in as #164, confirmation came in at 12:03. Congrats to the web developers for handling the load! 🙂

    So it seems to me that one of the main points of the “founder” status is to contribute to the longterm success of PermaEthos. The founders would do that partly by providing initial capital, but they would also do this by spreading the message and promoting the brand. Having a wider founder base would provide a stronger foundation.

    The speed of clicking through the order form, PayPal know how, and the ability to be available for the right 2 hours doesn’t seem to contribute much to the diversity of the founder base. Also, seems like each family should be counted as a “spot” — 1000 families would provide a more broad founder based than 700 families with multiple members in each family.

    If you store the join day of all your MSB members I’d suggest this. Split them into 10 groups in order of join date. Start at 8am and send an invitation email each hour to each group, starting with the oldest members. That gives each group an hour to get in and prefers most loyal TSP members.

    I know it’s more technically challenging but not hard for the right developer. And I think adding another 500 spots allows for the multiple spots per family issue plus adds a lot more capital and diversity of founders.

  20. OK guys (and gals) let’s get past the BMW ( bitching,whining,and moaning) and move on, if you don’t trust Jack and the Community to do the right thing! I’m looking to start a study group, a localish sub-community to work together to work on the PDC. I’m in Houston, working on a suburban homestead and want start a backyard PermaEthos nursery ( developing local Moringa and Lecueana). Hit me up if you want to study together!

  21. Jack, I believe as many people should be allowed to take the course as you wish, so long as it will not compromise the integrity or quality of the course. I do however believe that these people should NOT be allowed the benefit of being founding members. I believe this actually would devalue the opportunity. I do not think it would devalue the course itself, but the founding members’ benefits. You mentioned multiple times how exclusive this would be (hard ceiling) and that these people would be allowed certain benefits that others’ would not. By allowing more people access to those same benefits you devalue business opportunity for the actual 1,000 founding members by placing more people in the pool of applicants and competition. I would remind these people that it did not sell out in 10 minutes…it sold out in nearly 3 hours. Permaculture is in part about being responsible for yourself. If they could not be responsible enough to get signed up for something in the same amount of time that 1,000 other people managed to..they should not be included as founding members. If it is really about taking the course, they will be happy as long as they get to. If it is about receiving the benefits, they should have been on the ball. 1,000 other people were. I’m sure there are plenty of people who missed out and aren’t being little tea cups about it. If there were legitimate “technical difficulties,” I would consider honoring those if they contacted you prior to the sell out time. Its your game, but a lot of people worked very hard to make sure they got included and not everyone deserves a trophy 🙂

    • @Constance, I have asked likely 100 people in the past 24 hours this question,

      How would it devalue it for you personally in any way that isn’t simply emotional in nature, in what concrete way would it devalue the benefits promised to you that will still be kept?

      At this point I haven’t heard a single answer to that question.

      • Jack, The only actual devaluations or negatives for the original thousand founders I see are:
        1. More competition amongst farm owners who want to be considered for a future development site.
        2. Possible reduction in return on future farms, depending on how the discount scheme is structured (I would think this could be handled with a limit of some sort but then you would once again have competition amongst the original group for a benefit).

        Please accept this not as complaining but just an objective thought.

        • Well on #1 Farm owners would not really compete in the market at all. Again in this market there is more demand then product. Way more. Now they could get into competition based on someone owning a farm submitted for development. Here is the deal though, founders get FIRST CONSIDERATION FOR THAT. They still have to have the right land, the BUDGET, the right mind set, the right resources. Now if we ever got to a point where all was equal, the two in line were a perfect tie, I would just give the tie breaker to the one that got in, this SORT OF makes a second tier, and you could also win the lottery with a found ticket.

          I don’t get #2, we PermaEthos LLC will provide a discount to founders, individual farms set their own pricing though. How they structure discounts for founders is THEIR business, we advise them, we will even run things for them but any discount is subject to the seller, not to us. Farms we own vs. just manage will likely offer a uniform discount structure but if say yow own Erics Farm, we partner with you and you sell to our members and want to give a discount that is up to you as to how much. Not to mention such farms are going to sell in LOCAL markets for 90% or more of their production.

          In a hard numbers market analysis world the conflict just isn’t’ there an that is being wildly optimistic about the pull though in every program. You have to push the base way over 1500 before it occurs.

      • Jack, I’m on your team. I am just trying to provide an opportunity for an objective look at some possible objections. Thanks for the clarification on #2.

        I think it may be time for people to grow up and develop a little thicker skin. I was one of the people who “missed out” on the MT knives offering. I could list a whole host of reasons that I wasn’t able to get in. I was out of the country (but had internet access), I was at work (I pushed my show time late to make the time), the site crashed and I had to work. The email came out while I was on an aircraft and guess what, I didn’t get in. I was very disappointed. I didn’t like the fact that due to circumstances beyond my control, I was unable to participate. However, I didn’t send emails and complain about it. I lost (gracefully I hope). Sometimes that happens in life. Whichever way you resolve it I hope people will gird themselves and realize that this is not the end of the world. Looking forward to the journey.

      • I see no way that having more people would devalue the promised benefits or value. However, I do see value in having a much larger number of founders – even several thousand more. More people increases the value to the first 1000 members in two ways: 1) more people means more network effects and 2) more subscriptions means a greater ability for the PermaEthos team to bring more value to us (the founders).

    • Jack, I think Depeche Mode can answer this the best, “Grabbing hands, grab all they can. All for themselves. After all, it’s a competitive world. Everything counts in large amounts.”

  22. I got in and am thankful.
    I’ve been reading through the comments and wondering if all of the first thousand were actually MSB/BOF members. As Jack spoke about on a recent podcast, there is nothing built-in to the system to prevent someone from posting the “MSB only” link somewhere else. I do not know if this is the case with the BOF member link.
    In light of the obvious interest and support in these two communities, it is my opinion the founding members should also be MSB/BOF members as intended. If it be discovered that an individual not affiliated with MSB/BOF has purchased the PDC and knocked out a “card carrying member” I could see punishment in order. Something along the lines of, say, keeping their money and allowing them to take the PDC but not as a founding member.
    Just a thought and…
    It would probably be a lot of trouble cross checking to see if each of the first thousand were MSB/BOF members or the spouse, child, etc.. of a MSB/BOF member.
    Maybe more of a can of worms than anything else.

    On another note, I think the more the merrier. More students, equals more questions, equals more content being taught to us by the co-instructors.
    The price is not a big factor to me, but I do think the number of founding members needs to be capped as that was the deal and their is a fiduciary responsibility aspect. If everyone were founding members, there would be no benefit in being a founding member.
    My two cents,
    Another John from West Virginia

  23. I was able to get my Wife signed up. I’ll have my PDC through Geoff and she’ll get her’s here. I’m really glad Jack is planning on avoiding white boards; I didn’t realize that was the meat of Geoff’s course.

    As to the limit of 1,000 Founding Members and the idea of adding more. At first there’s a pang of jealously and greed to not allow that. But after thinking about it I’ve decided that I’m open to more members with whatever title at whatever price.

    Jack, you’ve changed my and my families life for the better; and you’re changing more lives all the time. I can’t ethically sit here and tell you to not spread the light to everyone willing to see it. At only $300 its a steal. Thank you for everything you and yours have done. I’ll stand with you on any decision made with the membership of PermaEthos. Thank you.

  24. My opinion,

    If adding additional slots, to the course isn’t a detriment to the quality you are setting out to accomplish in the course then go for it, if you want. I can’t see the downside to having more certified folks out there.

    That said, my bias is that I didn’t really find the “Founder” status to add value to my purchase as it is unlikely that I would take advantage of the benefits from that status in the future, so it was just an honorific. Kind of like a Knight of the Permaethos realm.

    That said, Jack really pushed the scarcity of those 1000 founder slots a LOT, over multiple episodes, so I could see how some would be upset if one factored that scarcity into that decision. I’m just not in that camp.

  25. As one of the few non-US MSB members I could see no benefit personally in being a “founding member” but was impressed with the planned presentation of the course and was eager to participate since “permaethos 1.0”. Unfortunately, I missed this opportunity due to several factors common here.

    Maybe different limits of founding membership and PDC should have been released/sold separately but that is in the past now.

    I just hope Jack releases some of this info in DVD format at a later time as I would love to watch the progress of the Elisha’s Spring farm.

    Congratulations Jack, Josiah, Nicholas and the rest of the team and I hope you can help change the world of food production.

  26. I could not get in because it sold out before I got off work but maybe I will have another chance down the road. I remember the first time I heard Jack talking about swales and I said what the hell is he talking about but now I have one! You are a great teacher and communicator. I live in SW Georgia and nobody knows what I’m talking about when it comes to permaculture but I will show them one day. I really wanted this PDC course. Thanks jamendjr for your post and recommendations. I should have tried to borrow someone’s smartphone.

  27. Jack, I think there is a solution that could make everyone happy. I will start this off by saying that I am currently NOT a founder. I missed my opportunity. I can’t blame it on anyone but myself. You are seeing from these posts that the interest is high. You did, however, promise something special to those first 1,000. I think that should be left untouched. Those are the founders. What I think may work (and I’d be interested to hear the opinions of those that oppose opening it up) is to offer a “tier two” for the founders. You could open it up to X amount of people and they would be “tier two founders.” You could raise the price or keep it the same. It makes no difference. The tier two founders could have all of the same benefits as the tier one founders but at a lower level. For example, if a tier one founder gets a 20% discount on something, a tier two founder could get a 10 or 15% discount. If two properties are in contention and one is a tier one member and the other is a tier two member, it goes to the tier one member but the tier two member is above others. This would open it up to more people, raise additional revenue, it wouldn’t dilute anything (even emotionally) for the first 1,000, and no one would feel like you broke your word. I trust that whatever decision you make, you will make it for the right reasons. I just think this could be a win-win.

    • I am all for opening it back up and I have a spot.

      But out of all the comments I have so far read this one sounds like the most fair idea. Keep in mind I would not be opposed to more people having whatever benefits I currently have.

      But this is a fair idea.

  28. Please open it back. I was lucky and had the day off, got space #594. This info is to important to keep to ourself.

  29. Just a suggestion and am not sure if enough people will give up their “Founding member” status to make this viable but…………..This keeps popping into my mind all day and maybe there is a way to make the most people involved here happy (Never gonna make everyone happy)…….Some people in the posts alluded to not being too concerned with having the “Founder member” tag and others signed multiple family members up…….How about taking a poll and see who is willing to not being a “founding member” (But still be able to take the full PDC) and trust that the multiple family sign ups just have 1 founding member per family/household and the number that pass it up, is the number you let in on monday……..You will have 1000 founding members and ?(However many) extra places up for grabs……..Good luck Jack. I know this one is probably weighing heavy on you.

    • ………And it does’nt need to be dished out on Monday. No rush!!!

  30. As somebody who couldn’t get in to the point I thought it was down (as in aint nobody getting in till it’s fixed) I think capping it such that it sold out so quickly was a mistake.

    If the point was to open it up to get the people who were willing to step up from day 1 and put money where their mouths were and be founders, it should be open for those who here and now are willing to do so.

    If only 1000 are wanted, you have it already and no point in making it 1200.

    If the body of people willing to back this from day 1 are what you wanted, it should be reopened, and anybody upset by that should be free to get a refund. Heck you could offer a premium refund of $400 and raise the buy in price.

    If the PDC is a concern, you could just say the submissions and things like that will be dealt with by founder seniority.

    If future founder issues come up, you could deal with #50 vs #1050 the exact way you should probably deal with #50 vs #51. Seniority.

    Oh, and plain and simple. Anybody wanting to sell back out, I could have $400 sent to you tomorrow. My username at gmail. I’ll even toss in #0068 of the autographed proof sentinels.

  31. Congratulations Jack,

    I wish I was one of the ones who got in. Payday isn’t till the end of next week, I was so hoping that opening would of been postponed until then.

  32. All through this it was always going to be 1000 founding member and you got those in a couple of hours which is fantastic.
    There seems to be a lot of people who want to do the course so if you can handle the extra work/ bandwidth I would say open it up at the higher cost.
    I still think that no matter if it’s 200 or 500 extra places once they are gone people will still whine about not getting on, but for a new business I would take the money.

  33. Would be happy to pay $400 as I could not get in. Thank you for giving us another shot at it Jack. I am proud of you, Joe and the community as a whole.



  34. First let me say that I am one of the people that got in, and my wife is signed up too. I was able to schedule time off from my work to be available to get in right away. My Paypal receipt processed at 2 minutes and 28 seconds after registration opened, and I am number 96. Obviously demand was high.

    I would be upset if I was on the outside looking in, but I am also not one to expect it to be changed. I was irritated to find out that while I was away on travel I missed out on the Bitcoin Lifetime MSB offering… but not once did I even consider sending a message to Jack to say make a special exception for me…

    I was eager to become a “Founder”. I trust that the lifetime benefit of that status will be seen in the future.

    My concern with opening the PDC up to more people is clearly demonstrated in the outcry of those that had problems and those that weren’t available.

    How many will be enough? Add 200 to 300 more and then do we hear cries form the person that just missed that cutoff? We have all heard Jack talk about the ‘teacups’, and that there needs to be winners and losers… I never expected to find so many ‘teacups’ among the MSB ranks.

    Add more people, and then you put more stress on servers to deliver streaming media. Add more people and the Q&A’s to trainers begin to cause an overload on not just the teaching staff but the students as well. As someone that is in Geoff Lawton’s course right now, I can tell you that I am overwhelmed with the amount of content that is being generated from participant questions. Geoff’ has put out more video content answering questions, then were in the original teaching presentations… and I really feel the need to watch it all. But sometimes I just don’t have enough free time to keep up with all of it.

    I want this to be a success. I trust in Jack to come up with a solution.
    Auction off spots, and people complain that the price excluded them.
    Hand pick spots by MSB seniority or previous class participation and someone will find a reason why that isn’t fair.

    As for the Permaculture Ethics of share the surplus… Lets plant the seed first and wait for the plant to grow, before we start distributing the surplus. My permaculture view of adding more people is synonymous with desertification… Too many grazing animals strips the land bare. The land can only support so much, and if you have too many, all suffer… but if you let the system mature, great rewards can be reaped.

  35. As an MSB member and daily listener to TSP for about a year (I wish I had found TSP earlier), I was hovering over the computer and was fortunate to get through (#83) despite some technical issues with Paypal. And while a very small part of me likes the idea of keeping the founding group very limited, that would be counterproductive to what this movement is trying to accomplish.

    As some have pointed out, the problem is the solution. I’ve listened to Jack long enough to trust in his judgement as to how to fairly resolve this dilemma. If only all the dilemmas in our lives could have the potential to improve the world if we keep our priorities in the right place.

    So, I would support re-opening the pool, particularly because of all the amazing people in this community that are true supporters of the show and the concept of PermaEthos. Let’s not unnecessarily limit our potential from Day 1, but instead continue to support Jack as he stirs up and then and focuses an amazing amount of positive energy and passion from this community.

  36. I’m a brand new guy. I didn’t even know about Jack until Thursday evening, and I didn’t stumble onto the permaculture course until I was excitedly and energetically rummaging around in his website Friday morning, listening to podcasts, checking out some links – Jack’s understanding of “survivalism” is upbeat and positive, supportive of my own “lifestyle” survivalism. It’s about building resources and skills and building an ark to help ourselves and our neighbors through the coming flood of disaster and collapse. I’ve been on that track for 6 years; permaculture is my next learning curve. When I realized what was about to open, I saw my arrival on Jack’s site as serendipity (God’s provision). Of course I was going to join up!

    When I saw that Jack was hoping he could sell 1000 Founder spots, I figured I had time to register, so I didn’t change my plans to go out for cow manure and ammunition. I was both shocked to get home and see how quickly the slots had sold out and even more excited about what Jack is teaching when I saw how quickly the slots had sold out. Wow! I find it heartening that these ideas, and the desire to live free by recovering self-sufficiency, is so strongly and widely embraced! We are not alone after all.

    I am also encouraged by the warm, open, welcoming attitude of most respondents here who say open it up. This is definitely the community I’ve been seeking. So, on Monday, I will try to get a spot because I want the info in the course. Founder benefits are secondary, though of course I’d love to save a few dollars on future programs and offers, because whatever I save on education I can put into building my ark. If I get in, I will be translating the material to Vermont’s ecology. If I miss out, I’ll work on permaculture from another source, and look forward to Jack’s periodic podcast updates on the course, and whatever material becomes available from the program over time. Either way, I’m glad to have found this site and all of you. And I’m happy to support Jack’s work with my annual membership.

  37. I would love for this to open back up for sign up. I was at work on release date and by them time I was able to sign up it was sold out.

  38. As I have read many of the responses to this issue, I have come to realize that this is just a microcosm of society as a whole. Some with inherit advantages are able to use those advantages while those without those advantages remain “out of the game” and complain about how unfair it is. Welcome to the real world.

    As for me, yea I am one of the disadvantaged persons and not happy about the lack of a timely email about the opening (I was relying on that based on an earlier statement by Jack that the opening would be announced on a timely basis) and the time of day in which the sale was opened. But I am not going to let that stop me. I will just shift from this forum to someone else and move on. Jack is not the only person in this game.

    I encourage all those who likewise are not able to get into this course to look elsewhere and not give up. That is not best for the movement or for yourself.

    As for Jack, he is screwed. No matter what he does, he will make a good percentage of those invested in this issue unhappy. If he works to make the disadvantaged happy, those with the advantage will feel cheated. And if he sticks to where he is today, the disadvantaged will feel cheated. Jack, welcome to being the benevolent leader of a community.

    I would suggest sticking to what you said before and live with the fall out.

    • Well Sam honestly while we are leaning toward opening it for some more, comments such as your don’t really leverage that positively.


      How about those that try harder tend to often achieve where others fail instead?

      As for a timely manner?

      The date was announced every single day this week on the air. Did that advantages those that listen daily, sort of. I say it gave first priority to the most dedicated.

      We set the number at 1000 because we didn’t want to look like we were over reaching, I expected we would sell 700-800 spots.

      We can handle a class of likely 1500-1800 with no real problems but that WOULD BE too many founders.

      As for founders well we have at least 150 I would guess that are either over seas (and don’t compete for most things with the others) or that are married couples who if we look at business units would account for one business unit vs two “positions”.

      When I run the numbers the number of 200-250 keeps rising to the surface of the total slots we could have under current circumstances and not cause any loss of value to the existing founders.

      1300 starts to get dicey

      1500 gets to obvious conflicts

      With something like this you have to have a cap and you have to have a way to determine who gets in and who doesn’t. It isn’t perfect but a jump ball and those who want it being dedicated enough to show up and work for it is the best I have to work with.

      The decision now is

      What is best for PermaEthos?


      What is best for the existing founders even if they don’t think it is?

      What is best for the owners Joe, Nick, Charlie, Kevin and me, isn’t on the table. We have a fiduciary responsibility to the company AND the members now.

      Running the numbers the truth is selling about 200 more spots at 500 bucks each and investing that into the company and earmarking some SPECIFICALLY for member’s benefits appears to be in their best interest, whether they realize it or not.

      Yes a leader must be trusted to keep his word, he should also be trusted to recognize, correct and adjust a mistake. The number was flatly a mistake.

      If I had it to do over, well I would have done 1500 and three releases of 500 over three days. Life doesn’t come with a rewind button.

      Also this isn’t MY DECISION, based on feedback the members have voted about 70% for opening and 30% for not, this is NOT a democracy but we need to consider that in OUR decision.

      PermaEthos is owned by 5 people, technically Joe and I could out vote the three and I OR Joe and two others could do so to the the last two. But we don’t run that way.

      On our decisions in our operations agreement we require a unanimous vote for stuff like this. That means if we open, we have 5 people with eyes on the business in unanimous agreement.

      As for the timely email, I also posted TWICE the day BEFORE the launch and that all goes to the email list.

      Now please drop this advantaged and disadvantaged crap from your vocabulary, it will get you no where in life. Some are going to miss out on this opportunity, it doesn’t close all opportunity. Everything happens for a reason what we do now and tomorrow matters.

      • Just so you know Jack, for some reason I did not receive any prior email alert notices and then only got one after it was sold out. Perhaps a bug in the email list?

        I did however check the TSP site daily this week and was prepared for Friday. And yet from all the updates on the TSP site, I was under the impression that there would be plenty of time (you mentioned 24 hours once and 48 hours another time) …. and I almost waited until I got off work, but for some reason decided to sign up during my lunch break at work (I’m CST).

        I did not try harder than others IMO. I was lucky and got in.

      • I know that I may have sounded a bit grousey in a previous comment, but this is what I like to hear from you Jack.

        The three day launch would have been perfect, and will fix most of the issues that people have had next time you do something like this. That is awesome!

        My main issue was pretty much exactly as Roberto said, coupled with not knowing the TIME of launch more than 24hrs ahead of time.

        Again, I’m really not saying this in an effort to sway your actions on THIS ISSUE. I was really upset yesterday, others were too; It’s done and I’m a big boy so I’m over it. I simply would like to see it handled better next time. It looks like you are learning from the experience, and that’s all I expect.

        Love you and your work. I’ll respect however you handle this mucky situation. Thanks for trying your best, and working to make it better as you go.

  39. I will gladly pay more, and accept a level 2 founder status, or something to that effect…..forget a title, I just want to be involved.

    I think most people who’ve responded, regardless of their specific opinion, are correct in their assessment of the situation. Nothing is owed to any of us who missed out. However, demand was underestimated on both ends, and we might be missing out a larger opportunity to generate even more momentum behind this powerful idea.

    I respect whatever decision Jack and Josiah make. Regardless, I’ll find a way to get involved and stay involved.

  40. This is a tough spot for Jack and the rest of the permaethos team, but I’m glad I got in at #905. I thought that I would wait until I got home from work, but something told me to check the site.

    When I saw the number of comments on the post, and people saying that they were #500 + I knew I needed to sign up ASAP. Luckily, I don’t work at a job where it’s impossible for me to get away and go somewhere with free wifi for 30 min like some of the nurses and surgeons that we’re operating as the PDC sold out.

    I started thinking last night that it would sell out quick, especially after seeing 4k views on the YouTube trailer, remembering how we crashed the server when that was released, and thinking about the 90k listeners of TSP.

    Thanks Jack, and congrats. I’m glad I don’t have to make this decision that you guys are faced with.

  41. Well put, Walker! I completely agree. The response and outpouring for this opportunity are both amazing. My husband and I knew it would go fast, but never imagined it would take only two hours.

    This is a revolution and the more people who get behind it and on board, the better off we will all be.

    Go Jack, go!

  42. I signed up fairly early in the day, taking a break from planting.

    I say open it up to fellow members but only one per member who also wants in. We are a community after all.

    Enough of the greed and sniping people who had life going on at the time of sign ups. The icu nurse and surgeon for instance, some members of the military might have had shit to do while sign up was going on.

    Let them in Jack. And those who think otherwise, I respect what you are thinking but take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

  43. Jack, you said – “If I had it to do over, well I would have done 1500 and three releases of 500 over three days.”.

    Open it up to another 500 then. Charge them more or offer them as second tier foundation member status or whatever. Make the problem the solution … give yourself, but more importantly the movement, a chance to do it over and open it up for another day to add 500 more.

  44. Honestly, you screwed up Jack in the best way possible. The outpouring of support is Boobs and Butt, but you did say this wasn’t going to sell out to MSB. So, charging more or shutting out the MSB is a bad business decision. Who cares if you have a ton of founders. This sh*t is blowing up. You’ll make yours. But anyway you slice it, you made a mistake. Charging more is not fixing that.

  45. This is a tough situation. The launch of Permaethos was well announced. If you only knew about the launch via the “email” then you haven’t listened to TSP this week, right? There was lots of talk about hard ceiling of 1000. After reading through the comments, I almost started to feel bad for buying a spot for me and my honey, but the more i think about it the more I’m not. If I couldn’t register myself I would have made damn sure that someone competent was doing it for me. Because it was that important, right? This may sound harsh, but for the people that had technical issues, let that be a lesson in redundancy. Multiple internet connections, multiple devices (pc, laptop, smartphone, tablet, ect) should have been arranged, since it’s that important you get in as a founder, right?!

    I do think that more spots should be opened up but at a much higher price. The reason why I bought a second spot for a family member is because it’s such a bargain, it’s her first pdc and I want to support this venture. Not greed. The question is how to figure out from this point who will be allowed to get those few precious spots of expansion from the original 1000. Either way there will be people pissed. Maybe if people are only interested in the PDC and not being a founder the price can remain the same? I trust you’ll figure out how to make the problem the solution.
    Peace, Tar

  46. Jack, I was on right at 12 noon and had a heck of a time getting through also. My father and I where both signing up so it was really important for me to be part of this. I knew that this would sell out in no more than a day and figured the server had crashed. I kept refreshing and finally made it through #595. I know how important it was for me to be a part of this, and though I tried one more little glitch could have kept me out and I took off early to join. So, I think that anyone that wants to join should be able to. I believe that we are all part of the same community and should look out for each other and that if the tables were turned someone would vote to let me have another chance. Also as far as emailing you with problem questions; I wasn’t going to stop hitting refresh until I knew the thing sold out.

  47. Honestly, I think it was beyond obvious that this course would sell out fast. That’s why I was waiting right there at 10am (west coast time). Still took me a few tries to get in & I was #259. I wanted to be a part of this effort for many reasons, but a biggie was to be able to take future classes. It doesn’t bother me at all if more slots are offered. The more the merrier! 🙂

  48. I decided to put my 2cents in on this . I forget who it was but someone complained about starting this on a work day. Here is the thing Where I work can be everyday. Where I work does not close on the weekend like some places so someone else could still say not to do it on a work day.

    I was actually at work when I signed up and I am happy that I did not have any technical issues that could have cost me my slot. I was also lucky that it happened during my lunch break since it is only 30 minutes long.

    I do like the idea of Founding members be based on the family and not the individual person. You could Will your Founding member status to a family member if you passed away and the inheritor still has to be certified for this option to happen.

  49. A comment on Sam Flocks post.

    If I was not one of the ones that made it I would not leave
    TSP just because I did not get in. I knew the possibility was out there for it to sell out quickly. After all just TSP has what 75,000 listeners and if only 10% wanted to do this that is still way over 1000 people. My ” Spidey Sense ” was going wild that this would not come anywhere near 48 hours let alone 24 hours.

    So I set an alarm on my phone , checked my email and was ready to pounce and I still barely made it at 759. Since I was at work I consider myself lucky and blessed.

    Now what might have helped is if you did 1000 families instead of individual people that might have solved some problems. It would be like if we were to vote on something for some reason it could have been 1 vote per family instead of maybe 3 votes per family.

    I am fine with what ever you do. Here is an idea you should ask everyone that made it if they just did it for the community or for the education. If someone has no intention of doing the PDC see if they are willing to be a sponsor for someone else that just wants to do the PDC for the knowledge and is not concerned about being a Founding member.

  50. Plan was to sign up msb and pdc as soon as I got back in town Friday night, out of town without internet.
    Can’t do that now, demand way exceeded the open spots.
    Founding member and such would be nice but irrelevant to my own personal plans.
    A pdc would be good for me to have, whether here or elsewhere.
    We have 4 beautiful acres on which we’re in the process of building a small place to live, currently my husband is putting in the wiring. My plan has always been to have a small food forest of some kind even before listening to Jack. Many beautiful hardwood trees enough space for a homestead but not a commercial orchard type thing. As some kind of small business I think herbs (great friend with a sustainable herb farm in Tennessee), nursery, honey or even mushrooms.
    Family who lives next to us over there, we are still getting to know, they have 80 acres and are preppers.
    Nursery would work great if we decide to find a larger place while gaining knowledge along with starts for such a place. And the need is there, try finding plants listed in the food forest books, etc in your local nurseries. Even though I was sold on the pdc before, when Jack announced Nick’s thing on plant nursery/business it became a must do. Business side along with how to grow, will help many with this movement.
    I’m sure there are many who didn’t get in who want to learn and use the knowledge. Whatever you decide to do Jack, the more who can learn and use these things the better. Flip side, if I can’t get in (or anyone else who wants to) disappointing, but doesn’t mean we can’t find other ways to learn and reach our own personal goals, nor that there won’t be other courses through tsp other times.

  51. This will go a bit long so bear with me.

    The talk about “founding members” was they would get special recognition and perks going forward because they put up money before PE got going and were willing to take the risk and thus got rewarded. These were the ones that stood up and made the effort to get signed up and gave their money to get this thing started.

    We now know that demand was significantly underestimated and to be blunt the term “founding member” now means “lucky” in that you had the time and got into the server ahead of someone else that also wanted to support PE. We know this because there are many that were trying to support PE and get in on the PDC but could not for one reason or another. I was one of them that got so far as to get it into my cart but couldn’t complete the purchase.

    Paul Weaton is always saying he could spread his message faster if he had more resources (money). So wouldn’t PE get better established if you opened up another 1,000 slots at $300 and took that extra $300,000 and did more, better, faster.

    The people posting here that want to get in are not people that waited a year after launch and then want to get in at the same level as people that were there from the beginning. They are people like me that had someone else click their mouse a few seconds ahead of me or even clicked the buy button after me but their connection to the server didn’t time out. You can’t claim someone supports PE any less because they waited seconds to hours too long to try and buy in.

    My proposed solution is to open it back up for 24 hours and sell as many as there is demand for. As each person buys their position get recorded and that would be used to settle all ties in the future.

    I understand that reviewing the completed projects could be a problem with more people, but just use their position to determine order. I really don’t think it will be a problem because I believe the number of people that submit a project for certification will be less 100% and they will be staggered in time. I know if I had got in it would be more like early 2015 before I have my project done. One of the reasons I wanted this PDC is I need to stretch it out over time due to other obligations in my life. And the price is something I could afford.

    Having a lot of people support what is trying to be done with PE is a good thing. You could leave the “founding members” designation for the first 1,000 and call the rest of us that get in at the beginning (assuming you open it up again) something like charter members. We would get the same benefits as what was described previously for founding members, but if there ever is a tie (which I really don’t see happening) your buy in position would be the tie breaker.

    If you did just let as many people that want to buy in in a 24 hour period and a extra 100-300 buy it it is no big deal other than yo have more money to work with. If it is 300-500 I still think the class would function OK, but those of us that get in at the end would just understand and accept that our place in line is at the end. If you get 500-1,000 more then you might have to take a survey about how many and when will be submitting projects for certification and do some scheduling. But can you imagining what you could do in the next year if PE gets funded with something close to $1,000,000? You would have to hire some additional staff, but you would have the resources to do it.

    I have 10 acres that I am just starting to develop as a permaculture homestead, I’m asking you to seriously consider letting me (and other like me) be part of PE from the beginning. This will only increase the momentum and help reach the goals of PE even sooner.

  52. I like Jerry Ward’s idea for solving your problem. The first 1000 would be Founding Members.

    Those that have numbers 1001 and up could be considered Charter Members.

    Now if their is ever a tie between these two groups A Founding Member would win over a Charter Member.
    Most everything else could still be the same for the most part with a possible few exceptions.

    Now about your word. If you created these two groups you would Not be breaking Your word Jack. Their would only be 1000 Founding Members. The Charter Members can be considered everyone else that does this in our community in the future be it one year or 100 years.

    Which means if you open this up again and let it sell out, which lets say another 1000 slots these 1001 to 2000 people would be the first 1000 Charter Members. In time the Charter Members could number in the many 1000s.

    Good Luck Jack. And Everyone lets move on and do Better and Important things for our Country and in time the World.

  53. I’m sure the Partners and Founders have probably reached a fair and equitable decision, or maybe they’re still hammering out details. Just thought of another option late in the game.

    Opening the PDC at the original $300 or a slightly increased ($400 or less) cost: WITHOUT certification and WITHOUT benefits

    Without the ability to add additional questions for Jack and Nick, but with the ability to see their answers to the founding members’ questions.

    But then also adding the option for submitting the design for an additional “processing and certification” fee ($200-$300) at course completion. This would reduce bandwidth stress on the system, Jack, and Nick. Give those of us who want to help both ourselves and the ’cause’ a way to do it wile still being affordable.

    We’ll have the time to scrape together additional funds.. as long as it takes, and the Founders would have a full summer to decide which, if any, benefits to include with the “Processing and Certification” additional package deal for FirstRound-not-Founders.

    • There is NO REASON to open it with out certification, that doesn’t even begin to make sense. A PDC is a PDC and being certified wasn’t a “benefit” of being a founder.

      The real founders benefits are paying a huge discount on the course, first consideration and frankly being listed as a founding member. Those will not go beyound 1000 because we promised so.

      The price will be 500 for those that want in now, they will get a certification IF they submit a design and pass all the tests at the ends of the chapter. They will get discounts in the future, (that one is mainly because it is still fair and frankly a LOT easier for us to manage if everyone in the first class has access to discounts).

      We are doing this next round next week, it will open for 500 or for one week, which ever comes first.

      We will NEVER have this class open ended with enrollment UNLESS demand drops to where we can. There is a limit to how many we can handle at any one time.

      The 500 bucks is still a great discount. The plan here in the beginning was simple, we build a 1200-1500 dollar product with a retail price of about 700 bucks, then we discount the shit out of it to founders. That is what we did, by giving people in this second wave of the first class a 500 dollar price it is still a heavy discount, we keep our word and likely we won’t sell out or won’t do so as fast. So more people that really want it can get in the door.

  54. “First Round” pricing and benefits would then expire with the next xxxx members to actually submit designs.

    For those who just want to help the cause regardless of benefit, a “donate” PayPal button.

    For those who just wanted the benefits or Founder Title without the education, I would think that’s entitlement thinking.

  55. It would ease the “radio call-in contest” mentality out of those of us who missed the Founders’ Round, while keeping the promise to those who did make it. And would reward hard work, dedication, and commitment for those of us who want help the cause and “Live a better life if things get tough…”