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Episode-1578- Could Open Source Scouting Save Our Youth

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Yesterday I heard that the Boy Scouts of America has now banned scouts from shooting each other with water guns and says if you play with a water balloon that it is to be inflated no larger than a ping pong ball.  First I thought this was from the onion but now I see that it is factual and being reported by many people.  Here is one example.

Many are shocked, I am not.  Long ago I noticed that scouting was in a downward trend due to bureaucracy.  That is indeed the problem by the way, might I remind you of “the iron law of bureaucracy“?  It was written by modern thinker Jerry Pournell…

Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people”:

 First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisers in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

This is truly what has drug down the Boy Scouts and most other scouting organizations, I also tell you truly there is no recourse, the down slide will continue.

Join Me Today to Discuss…

  • What was great about scouting and where it went wrong
  • Understanding the IRON part of the iron law
  • The only way to prevent bureaucracy from taking over is elimination of it
  • What are the real goals of scouting
    • Instill a sense of honor, duty and service
    • Promote doing your very best in anything you do
    • Develop real skills that translate into real life
    • Understand the power of teams, learn to both lead and follow
    • Develop real self esteem by accepting and completing challenges
    • Promote phyical, mental and spiritual fitness
  • None of this requires a bureaucracy
  • The OSSM (open source scouting model)
    • The only unification is 6 common goals
    • Individuals and groups determine how best to acomplish them
    • All information can be shared or not
    • The responsibility to vet leaders is 100% that of those involved
    • The group is a virtual nation made of virtual tribes
  • The OSSM Advantages
    • Immune to the iron law
    • Develops healthy competition
    • Creates independent innovation
    • Develops 100% voluntary groups
    • Requires individuals to truly evaluate their own success/failure
    • Allows freedom for all involved
  • How it would work
    • A social media style website
    • People share what works for them, what doesn’t
    • Groups form based on voluntary association
    • The only moderation is to prevent improper content (porn, illegal, etc)
    • The uniform would simply be something like a patch, or may be a challenge coin
    • Consider it Scouting Jeet Kune Do
  • Why it could work, why it likely won’t happen, yet anyway

Resources for today’s show…

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Comments

Episode-1578- Could Open Source Scouting Save Our Youth — 45 Comments

  1. Wonder if this is the same Jerry Pournell from Byte Magazine?
    Loved Chaos Manor

  2. Getting more sad all the time….

    When I ran a paintball field (sold now) the scouts would show up to play (private event) but couldn’t make it a scout outing they had to call it a family outing (parents would also be playing). They always had a great time, and talked about for days later. Sad, something like this that teaches so much and it played in the woods is not condoned by the Scouts.

  3. Political correctness is a social cancer that we must address and fight back against at some point or we’ll all turn around one day and not even recognize… not just our country, but indeed the entire human race. This isn’t about water guns or poking fun at fat kids. This is about common sense and basic human intelligence. If we’re going to re-engineer society to make it safe so that children never get hurt or disabled people can no longer be made fun of, we might as well all just Jonestown ourselves to heaven in mass kool-aid suicide. With political correctness we’re literally trying to pass laws and new social ‘rules’ to stop physics and natural law from taking place.

    I was a Scout as a youngster, and I can say happily that many water gun fights were had, many fish were caught, many fire safety lessons were learned, but without my elders giving me enough rope to hang myself with, I never would have learned how to make so many knots. People, especially youth, must be given a chance to fail and at times even put themselves in harm’s way. It’s the best way to truly teach paths to success.

  4. Jack the Great Crystalizer strikes again! I’ve had the same thoughts that scouting isn’t what it was and what it could be. My wife took over as our sons troop leader and her biggest headaches is the bureaucracy. The second is the parent apathy/babysitter mentality. The hoops she has to jump thru to meet BS (bull shit not Boy Scout) regulations and such are asinine. Guess she’s just a glutton for punishment because she’s a teacher too….

    • I agree with the baby sitter mentality. When their child was a Cub Scout a parent always had to be there. You could not just drop him off and leave. The sad thing as soon as the boy becomes a Boy Scout at least in our troop it was rare to see an adult stay through the whole meeting. That is what is sad when they were young we usually were tripping over adults, but when the boy Became a Boy Scout most of the adults disappeared even though it was on the same night and time.
      At least when we are at the meeting place at the church we don’t need a lot of adults, but when we go camping it is hard to do stuff when their are only 2 Adult leaders and no their adults to act as back up. This is when it would be nice to have other adults at the camp outs. This would allow one leader to stay at camp with other adults and the other leader could be out there with other adults keeping a watchful eye on the Scouts and only interfering with their activities if it is something dangerous.

      The Adult leaders need help from everyone when the boy becomes a Boy Scout. It does not matter if it is Dad, Mom, Uncle, grand parent, or even an adult sibling or cousin. In my case I don’t have any children, but I do have a nephew. When he joined Cub Scouts I did not Waite for the Cub Master to ask for adult leader volunteers for the Tiger Scouts. I went to him immediately and asked what I needed to do to be an Adult Leader. So like the old saying goes I did not have a horse in this race. I did not have to volunteer and in the end
      I became the Cub Master and when my nephew crossed over into Boy Scouts I Became an Asst. Scout Master.

      Even after my nephew was no longer in the troop I stayed for the boys because by that time their was only the Scout Master and me left of the Adult Leaders. We had a good committee, but we very rarely saw any other adult on the camp outs.

      I stay and sacrifice my time and potential money I would make if I actually work the weekend instead of doing the camp outs. As long as I am able I WILL continue being an Adult Leader because I Believe in the Spirit Of The Boy Scouts of America.

      Jack You are right We may not be able to take our country back from the politicians, but We do have the power to tell BSA council to stuff it. Any one who is reading this help your Local Troops. If you were a Boy Scout as a youth step up Now you don’t have to have a child in Scouting to be a Leader. If their are millions of adults that want to help find a troop. If their are 50 adult leaders for just one troop they should have a good number of adults on every camp out even if each adult only did one camp out a year.

      Sorry for the looong posting.

  5. After last week’s show, I started looking into local 4-H clubs around here and what it’d take to start a new one. They actually encourage it! And it sounds like it leans on a lot of the bureaucracy already in place (state universities, ag extensions, etc.). So now one of my ‘back of the mind’ ideas is to start a club for suburban gardening and homesteading.

    Something tells me if you gave the kids some super soakers to play with on a hot day after digging a swale, no one would complain….

  6. My grandma owned her own tax business for like 60yrs, and passed away April 15 two years ago. My grandfather was a POW and the 4th was always the biggest family holiday with huge backyard get togethers…guess what day he passed.

    On a side note, I launched http://www.PermacultureAbundance.com a few weeks ago, thanks to Jack for his part in inspiring me to take the leap.

    • Yep sounds like a plan, and why could not a 4H group possibly also be an independent scouting group too, or not or some of them or not. Freedom is pretty cool you know.

  7. Excellent show today with a lot of great, provocative ideas.
    I was a 3rd generation Eagle Scout back in the 70s and still credit the BSA for making me a better man as well as giving me innumerable priceless memories and introducing me to lifelong friends I still talk to today 40 years later.
    I still believe in the ideals of the program.
    30 years later, when my son came of age to join Scouting, I couldn’t have been more proud and was happy to volunteer as Scoutmaster.
    Within a few weeks, I was disgusted to learn how much the program had degenerated over a few decades. My hands were completely tied by ridiculous restrictions and regulations designed for political correctness and “protecting” the kids from any potential “danger” no matter how frivolous.
    When my son decided 2 years later that Scouts was not for him and that he had “much more fun just hanging in the woods with you”, I was actually relieved and we left the program.
    My only regret is that the program that meant a lot to me had fallen to such a forlorn state. After your program today, I’ll think a lot about how to maybe reboot the system locally.

    • So, how do they tie your hands? I’ve often wondered why you couldn’t just go and do something else, even if it’s against their rules. How do they constrain you?
      I ask this completely seriously, as I have no experience with this type of club, and wonder what would happen if a troop adopted a don’t ask don’t tell policy around something like paintball, or water guns.

      • OK, this past year I helped with a local Scout-O-Rama. This is done by the community at no costs to the scouts or general public.
        So many ways our hands were tied.
        No money to get it started.
        Not allowed to raise any money until a short time before the event. Not able to save surplus money raised to kickstart the next year’s event.
        Not allowed to contact many people whom we knew would donate to the event.
        All money raised goes into the general scout fund and they decide if we can use it.
        The local professional scout administrators were often more of a henderance than help.
        We planned and raised money for a zip-line across the lake, got permission forms ready, hired professionals to see to the safety of everything.
        Getting donated materials together to start building platform, and scout office calls it off. Doesn’t even call anyone on the scout committee until after they call the city, power company, professional adventure crew and cancels the zip line. Then they called the committee. They said liability issues yet we were following BSA guidelines and had checked into extra insurance.
        Now we did have permission to fire an canon, but none were available that weekend. Had black powder guns (no balls) boys could shot, black smiths with forges, helping boys make knifes.
        Scary thing was hearing a parent wonder if it was wise to have all those hot fires, and concerned with boys having their own knives. She was thinking maybe we shouldn’t do that next year.
        Much talk in committee about starting their own non-profit group and open event to various other scouting organizations too. Several of these groups already broke off BSA and started their own thing.

      • I also saw a lot of great scout troops, boys scouts and girl scouts, saw a lot of good stuff they were doing. A memorial garden. A friend’s son in another state build a community garden for a homeless shelter. The projects many of the eagle scouts are doing are quite awesome.
        One young man a couple years back raised a bunch of money and build several covered bus stops for the community, along with funds and plans for several more so other scouts could continue the project. Another young man getting canvas tarps and enclosing a riding area for handicapped kids so they could still practice on rainy days. Many, many other projects.
        Brand new 11 year old scouts, self-motivated, doing great things. Dedicated troop leaders. Dedicated community donating money, goods, services.

      • Derek M

        Their are two main restrictions I see

        1. Insurance
        If a boy gets hurt the organization insurance would cover medical bills I believe. If you do something as a group that is against the rules you open yourself up where you as an Adult Leader may be liable for the medical bills.
        2. The Scout Law and The Scout Oath.
        The first line of the Oath is
        ” On My Honor….”
        In the Scout Law the first line says
        ” A Scout is Trustworthy….”
        Lying would break Both the Oath and the Law. Now I am not saying we didn’t do Family Activities,but We Leaders had to make sure everyone understood that THEY were responsible for their own child when we did activities that were not exactly Scout approved.

        Years ago my Cub Scout troop went to Lazer Tag and we made it clear it was a Family Activity. Meaning No one worn anything that was Scouting related. We all just showed up on our own and had fun as just friends instead of Scouts. So we did not have to lie it was just a coincidence that we were All their on the same day and time.

        Also if you get caught doing something that is considered bad like breaking certain Rules you can be “Black Listed and can Never Be A Leader Again” that is why we Have two deep Leadership for the protection of the Youth, and protection for yourself from being accused of harming a scout through a misunderstanding . I can Never take a boy somewhere to even talk to him privately I can take him aside ,but Must stay near the whole group and in clear sight of another adult. Their are some Rules that are for the youths protection and their are other Rules that are for ALL the Adults in the troop protection.

        • Small independent groups really fix problem one.

          Why would someone sue the boy scouts? Um because they are a 1.2 billion dollar organization. There are two parts to that. 1.2 billion AND organization.

          Self organization would mean no one had to take anyone in, period, groups would be small there is no slush fund. Groups would develop their own systems to keep this problem contained. Are we so lost as a people that we truly can see no way clear to fix our own shit even for something as simple as forming groups to go camping and develop skills?

        • Appreciate the clarification. I always wanted my own kids to do scouting for various reasons, not the least of which was belonging to something bigger than themselves with such a rich history.
          Now I’m not so sure.

      • The power of the brand, the organization and the illusion of prestige.

        Since you want to be a Boy Scout and use their BRAND and SYMBOLS etc. you have to comply with what they say or you get tossed out.

        My solution is for people to realize, the brand doesn’t mean shit, what it is supposed to represent does and no one needs a National Bureaucracy to acomplish that.

  8. I’m an Eagle Scout. I pretty much grew up in the Boy Scouts from 1980 to 1991. I had an old school Scoutmaster in my troop that taught us all the good stuff from years past and shared wisdom with us that truly helped me succeed in the Marine Corps and life a few years later. Somewhere around 1990 me and a few of my scouting buddies noticed a slight change. Jack, you are right in just about everything you said today. I will defend the Boy Scouts of my youth, but there’s no way I can say they are still training men today.

  9. Awesome show today Jack. My brother and I have been looking at doing something very like this lately. We have been running across more and more youth (a few of them scouts) who have never been fishing, camping, or hunting. They all say they would love to try if they had someone to teach them.

  10. Jerry Pournelle, co-author of some of Larry Niven’s greatest books.
    Jack, you don’t let it slip out much, but have heard enough to think that you *have* to be a bit of a sci-fi fan and futurist, think that’s awesome. thanks for all you do man, best wishes..

    Paul Oravec
    Montag451 in forum

    • Sort of. I really loved Star Trek back in the day so to speak. It was the best scfi thing I felt was ever done.

      Then came Voyager and it was okay but not that good, then Enterprise which was well, terrible. With my memory it is now hard to enjoy the original series, TNG or DS9. The new movies have been great.

      More now I like to watch documentaries on real futurism. Into the Wormhole, etc.

  11. It’s my understanding that the Girl Scouts are a bit more open source than the BSA by comparison. You can have two completely different Girl Scout organizations in the same state (northern and southern let’s say) and they might as well be two totally different organizations from Jupiter and Pluto. At least that’s how it is in our state. Not as localized or idyllic as what today’s show encourages but it’s a start.

    Also growing up as boy scouts, we would make alka-seltzer tab necklaces and play fizzer-tag with squirt guns in the forest. When your tab fell off, you were dead. Demonizing these activities for not being “kind” (one of the tenants of the Scout Law) is on par with demonizing buying a new pocket knife for not being “thrifty” (another tenant of the Scout Law). Besides, water wars were one way we remained “cheerful,” sometimes “brave,” and “clean!” (all tenants of the Scout Law). This is a sad trickle-down symptom of the social engineering/language manipulation/mind control disinformation double speak that persists today.

    “We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.” -William Casey (CIA Director 1981)

  12. There have always been scouting groups in the united states outside of the bsa and gsusa, but they always seem to miss the mark when it comes to actual scouting, and they fade away. A lot of Boy scout troops miss the mark when it comes to scouting as well. It takes about 30 seconds after walking into a troop meeting to tell if they are using the scouting, or are a bunch of kids wearing BSA uniforms, but doing their own thing, usually at the direction of adults who don’t understand what scouting is, yet think they know better.

    Lord knows BSA has its issues, and this water gun policy is nothing new, I just looked in the 2006 guide to safe scouting and the policy was the same then as I this now. I’m in no way defending it, and well, when my sons cub scout pack had a water ball on fight they used balloons based on the unofficial super ping pong balls.

    The real problem here, as well as many many other areas, is our litigious society. Helicopter mom looking for a pay day sues the BSA for millions because little johnny cried when he got water in his eye, hoping BSA will just settle to make her go away. The policy protects BSA. They can say “look, our published policy is no shooting people with water guns” and then they get released from the lawsuit, mom decides it’s not worth it to go after Bob Scoutmaster since there is no money in it, and it goes away. The issue there from my point of view is that mom can sue for stupid crap in the first place.

    There were a few things I wanted to mention about merit badges, their purpose, and specifically the camping merit badge since the changes over time, current requirements, and process for earning it (or any MB) were WAY off, but this is already long so I will start a forum thread for those interested and not take any more space here.

    • “There have always been scouting groups in the united states outside of the bsa and gsusa, but they always seem to miss the mark when it comes to actual scouting, and they fade away”.

      Actually I disagree on several levels, first would be real scouting alternatives such as this, http://bpsa-us.org/

      Which is actually linked to the true origin of scouting far more than BSA and is less afflicted by the iron law.

      Second on fade away, since what I am talking about is groups that self organize for the purpose of scouting and do as they see fit and do so on their own terms a group ending isn’t a failure, at all. We call it a LIFE CYCLE.

      We are so addicted to control, rules and third party validation at this point I wonder if we truly have any hope?

  13. Jack, one other nuance to add to Pournelle’s Law regarding the internal BSA leadership, the one’s so well paid, is that the boards and committees that lead the BSA at the national and even the regional council levels are made up of people sought out for their elevated standing in the community. Lots of them are CEOs or other high level leaders in corporate America. They are sought because they add stature to the org, improve the ability to fund raise, etc.

    The problem is that these people spend their days being beat about the head and shoulders by lawyers, government agencies like OSHA, Politically Correct groups, etc within their companies and then they bring this mindset to the BSA. They and their companies look good for supporting the scouts in high profile ways. But they really aren’t there to lead, but to manage. To get along. To make more rules. The skills and abilities that got them to their CEO positions are not in fact what scouting really needs.

    Recent decisions by this group of people at the top of the BSA show a dramatic difference in thought and vision from the rank and file volunteers in the troops and districts. While I see this myself in an anecdotal sense, the proof has been born out in polls and surveys of the volunteers and parents. I think in the short run they may make some PC groups happy, but they are losing their core.

  14. This troubles me though doesn’t surprise me. I am an Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor member of the Order of the Arrow. I worked 8 summers at scout camp and even interviewed a few times for a professional scout position. I joined scouting in 1989 as a Weblos and my last summer with Scouting was 2002. I have been out of touch with scouting since then. My scout masters allowed us to do lots of things not approved by national. When our local council started setting up “restricted areas” of camp at camporees, we voted as a troop to stop going to camporees. Part of going to camporees was to explore and enjoy all of the camp. This was during the 90’s, so I am not surprised things have deteriorated further. In the mid 90’s our exec. banned certain classic songs from being sung at camp. These “banned songs” we sung secretly and under the cover of darkness at staff only campfires. My son will be ready for Tiger cubs in a few years and I will encourage him to pursue scouting if he chooses. My plan is to do all the cool stuff scouting no longer allows with him on our own time. Being an Eagle Scout has opened many doors for me and I hope my son is able to achieve the same honor. I also hope when he is grown that being an Eagle Scout still means something.

    • @Nate, I ask that you consider something and do so with respect.

      Today a show will come out with Michael Bolden in about 3 hours. When it does please listen to it. At one point we will briefly discuss standardized testing. When we do I will tell a story about a radio host who explains everything wrong with it, why you don’t have to do it, why it doesn’t really matter, how it is harmful to children, etc. Then he will explain something else.

      Would you please listen to that form.

      Will you then tell me what it makes you think about in regard to your last four sentences above.

      • My comments could be interpreted as being along the same lines of the radio host in the story. I can see where I contradict myself. That brief story and comment by Michael gave me much food for thought. I care much about the organization that helped in my development. I hope that it can provide the same (or better) experience for my son. So much depends on what is going on at the local level. If at the local level they are able to fly under the radar and keep to traditional scouting, great. If the local troop is a “yes man” to everything national says, then it might be time to look at a different scouting organization. Thank you Jack for posting information on the BPSA. I want to learn more about this organization as an alternative to the BSA. As to an Eagle Scout still meaning something in the future, I hope that the public’s opinion of Scouting and Eagle Scouts in particular is not changed to a negative one by the professional scouters through their policy changes.

        • Okay again but why be loyal to an organization that you have to fly low under the radar to appease?

          Is your loyalty to scouting or to the BSA?

          Is it to the mission or the group?

          I would never presume to tell you what to do here but two thoughts.

          I think anyone that would care that you were an Eagle would likely care just as much as if you were a Rover Knight, as I look into that I am pretty sure it might be a lot better in some ways.

        • Oh one more thing, I find many fathers who were in scouts often want it more for their kids then the kids want it. Tread lightly there, I have found a bit of reverse psychology is often good for opening up things to youngsters.

          I don’t know that you’d really want to do this. You have to work hard and go on camping trips and take long walks in the woods, probably not what you’d be interested in type of thing.

          I will tell you this ever dad I know that started pushing Eagle on their kids ended up with a kid not in scouting by about 14-15 at the latest.

    • Thanks for the advice Jack. As a father of grown children you have “been there and done that” and I will take your advice seriously. I appreciate the questions posed to me as to where my loyalties are. I have never thought of this topic in this way before.

  15. I was a Scout from the mid 80’s to the early 90’s. I have great memories associated with Scouting. I met my best friend in Scouts in 89!!! Still talk to the guy at least once a week.
    Alot of the rot festering in Scouting was transpiring even then. In many ways my troop devolved into a frickin Youth Sports league. That might have been fun for some…My local troop went “camping” in Canada…in rented RV’s. That and the discovery of girls and other mischief sent me on my way. The highest rank I earned was 1st Class I wanted to do real outdoors activities. Not watch Ghostbusters in an RV park. Something that I lacked to a degree as the child of a single mother.
    I was at my local rifle range recently…A troop of scouts were there. Learning to shoot AR-15’s under the tutelage of some Army reservists. It made me smile. After talking to a few of the dads on site I learned that this was an unofficial trip. Seems as if “Open Source Scouting” is already happening in an organic and spontaneous fashion.

  16. FYI Camping merit badge is still more than one night camping, here are some of the requirements: Show experience in camping by doing the following:

    Camp a total of at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events.* One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent.
    On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision.
    Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 1,000 vertical feet.
    Backpack, snowshoe, or cross-country ski for at least 4 miles.
    Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.
    Take a nonmotorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles.
    Plan and carry out an overnight snow camping experience.
    Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.
    Perform a conservation project approved by the landowner or land managing agency.

  17. I guess I may be one of the few people who will actually defend BSA, but my experience is from both being a Boy Scout as a youth and having two sons in the program as an adult.

    I was in Boy Scouts over 30 years ago and my brother-in-law was the Scoutmaster and a retired Marine. He became not only a great Scoutmaster but also a substitute “father” since my own dad had issues with his health that prevented him from doing things a dad should. My brother-in-law was a great Scoutmaster and I learned skills that I use even today. Job well done.

    Fast forward a few decades and my second wife insisted we keep my step-son in a Boy Scout troop that had a lot of local leadership problems. I knew it was a mistake to keep him in a troop that was not functioning properly but she put her foot down because of the connection with our church. I knew it was a mistake but she put her foot down. Since he was my step-son I allowed her to do it the way she wanted even though I knew in my gut it was wrong.

    When my youngest son was born we had a fresh start. Once he was old enough to start Scouting I found a different troop that had a long track record of functioning the way a troop should. I have never had any regrets with this troop.

    My youngest son is having an exceptional experience with Scouting because he is in a troop that has a great Scoutmaster (another retried military man) who is “old school”, a great committee, a great committee chairman that actually goes camping with the troop, and parents who are involved. My son works very hard on his badges and some of them have taken months to earn. The camping badge requires 20 nights of actual camping in the woods so my son has been working on this badge for over a year!

    What have I learned?

    Not all Scout Troops are the same no matter what is going on at BSA headquarters. Success comes through hard work, dedication, patience, and desire. Some troops have their act together and some don’t.

    I choose to keep my son in Boy Scouts. I have seen the good and experienced the let down of the bad. I don’t think I will ever agree with all the decisions that the upper management pushes out, but the overall values, skills, experiences, and life-time memories keep me and my son in the troop.

    Bottom line: if you stick with BSA choose a troop with a track record of having their act together and choose to participate as a parent. I strongly feel that the leadership in the troop by local people will far outweigh the influence of those who sit at the BSA headquarters.

    • Steve, I understand I really do.

      I think you will really appreciate today’s show specifically my admission to being wrong about somethings in this show it will be from minutes 9-14, show was just put out, #1579

      Also note my statement that “if I thought this was were things were going to end, I would think well fine, but this isn’t where it is going to stop”.

      Also take a look at my article about this group here, http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/a-scouting-alternative-with-some-promise

      I guess my question to folks like you is what value does BSA really bring to YOUR EFFORTS and the EFFORTS OF YOUR TROOPS?

      Your point is my point, when you said, “choose a troop with a track record of having their act together and choose to participate as a parent. I strongly feel that the leadership in the troop by local people will far outweigh the influence of those who sit at the BSA headquarters”.

      So why deal with them at all? Why not work with someone like Baden Powell? Why not be given the true freedom to run your group your own way and not have to work around edicts, etc.?

      Why do your fund raising and have your money go into the “general fund”?

      I mean I get the experience, the team work, the structure, the pride, the bond, etc. I just don’t get how a 1.2 billion dollar bureaucracy paying their head ass clown 1.2 million a year, helps you with that?

  18. I wonder if this could (or ever would) be applied to sports. What’s wrong with the Boy Scouts… the central bureaucracy called the BSA. What’s wrong with college sports… the central bureaucracy called the NCAA. You could literally apply it all the way down the line.

  19. The Assemblies Of God (US biggest denomination) has had a scouting like program since 1960 called Royal Rangers. I know it’s very large. I don’t know if they’d be better or worse than the Scouts…same premise, probably not as “politically correct” but would probably ban gays and obviously promote their pentecostal beliefs. But how cool if every faith based group had it’s own program that would let anyone in to promote “manhood”. below is the first paragraph form wiki on them…

    ‘Royal Rangers is an activity-based, small-group church ministry for boys in grades K-12 providing “Christlike character formation and servant leadership development for boys and young men in a highly relational and fun environment.”[1] The Royal Rangers program is active throughout the United States as well as over 90 nations of the world. Although Royal Rangers in the USA is a boys-only program, some nations operate Royal Rangers as a co-ed program allowing both boys and girls to participate.

  20. I grew up with something better that many don’t have the opportunity of…Grandpa’s, Uncles and Cousins…having squirrel hunting contest (who killed the most), basketball, football and baseball games. Fights, arguments etc., ready to play again the next time we all got together.

  21. Could i get the link to forbes and maybe a link to the list of names in charge.

  22. Like Nate I am an Eagle and a Order of the Arrow member. I am highly disappointed with the direction scouting has taken in the short time frame that I have not been involved.

    To attain the Eagle Scout rank you have to complete a large scout directed service activity. The scale of my project was such that I had to prove that I actually lead the project. This was in 2004. From the time I did my project that was admittedly way overboard to current the standard for scope of these projects has fallen precipitously. I achieved Eagle in 2004 its been a decade. Now painting a bunch of bird houses qualifies.

    The year before I attained Eagle I changed troops to a brand new one to be the senior scout. After meeting all the goals the mother of the oldest scout besides myself, who happened to be the advancement chair, got it into her head that her son should be the troops 1st Eagle. After attaining all the requirements and the signature of the scoutmaster on my application packet for Eagle she refused to sign off on my application so I couldn’t be processed for the rank advancement. I had to protest this with the council and my Eagle board was made up of all Scoutmasters. I was grilled mercilessly. I impressed the leader of the closest troop so much that he me asked afterwards that if I wanted to change to his troop he would be thrilled. The lesson of this is that politics run scouts down all the way to the troop level.

    My solution is to dissolve national leadership in regards to professionals.

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