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Episode-1597- Managing Chaos and the Permissiveness Epidemic

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Chaos will come, but it can also be managed.

Chaos will come, but it can also be managed.

I am joined today by Trevor Grice a licensed clinical psychologist who provides individual therapy and assessment services through a private practice setting in the Thumb of Michigan.

Since starting his voyage on preparedness and sustainability with his wife, Diana, and two sons, Dr. Grice has first hand experience on how this lifestyle can reduce anxiety and bring more happiness to one’s life. In addition, he has used this perspective to assist his clients in finding their own paths to happiness and acceptance, as well as to gain more insight into what is weighing down our society.

Trevor and Diana have started Dandelion Hills Farm on their two acre homestead. They raise turkeys, ducks and chickens, manage bee hives and are looking to grow their personal garden into a market garden

Trevor joins us today to discuss  Two main topics, first managing chaos because in his words, “controlling your life is about as easy as as snapping a picture of Sasquatch riding a rainbow farting unicorn”.  We also discuss what he calls, “The Permissiveness Epidemic”.  This is about how being too permissive with our children has created many of our current societal issues (i.e. also known as the “Douche Bag Epidemic”)

Resources for today’s show…

Remember to comment, chime in and tell us your thoughts, this podcast is one man’s opinion, not a lecture or sermon. Also please enter our listener appreciation contest and help spread the word about our show. Also remember you can call in your questions and comments to 866-65-THINK (866-658-4465) and you might hear yourself on the air.

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Comments

Episode-1597- Managing Chaos and the Permissiveness Epidemic — 62 Comments

  1. On the finances thing, I know one couple that has to have separate accounts because the wife has a gambling problem. It’s not that they don’t trust eachother in general, it’s that she literally isn’t trustworthy with access to money.

    • That is a different issue, sort of like a locked medicine cabinet for a drug addict. Personally I would say she should not even have an account. Cash allowance weekly ala Dave Ramsey, full visibility into the joint accounts, no authority or privileges other than to look though. Involved in all decisions jointly with the husband to major spending, saving and investing, just that he has to pull the trigger at the end.

      The current approach will likey go as follows…

      Husband saves well enough
      Wife eventually decides she wants equal control
      Husband says no
      Marriage deteriorates
      Divorce occurs
      She gets half
      Gambles it in a few weeks
      Husband funds problem with alimony for 20 years.

      • Exactly, the two accounts actually perpetuates the problem. Unfortunately, your assessment of what will occur next is far too often true.

  2. If anybody happens to know such a ‘course on life skills’ they could recommend, I’d greatly appreciate it.

    I’m a 26 year old who DOES try, over and over and over again [for the last six years or better], but none of my applications ever result in an interview. To date the only jobs I’ve had have been seasonal employment.

    I got some good general advice in replies to a different thread, but I sure could use a complete course or other resource in this regard.

    • The key to getting interviews is to be different. Don’t provide a vanilla application, be different. You want to stand out in application and in your interview in order to be memorable. Essentially, try not to give them what they want but make more of an effort to be yourself on paper and during interview. No matter what you think, being yourself has more potential to be memorable than trying to be someone or something else. Try to believe that they would be lucky to have you, not that you would be lucky to have their job. This alters the mindset and makes you come across as more intriguing instead of desperate. If you get an interview, try to spend more time interviewing them rather than them interviewing you. Let them know that you are trying to find the job that is a good fit for you.

      Something else I have heard from employers recently is that they want as much info as possible that actually matters. One person told me that they hate one page resumes because they are missing so much essential information and are jampacked and too busy to make sense of. Something to think about there.

      I know I kind of joked about it on the podcast, but there may be a market for an actual life skills course to help individuals such as yourself learn skills that older folks like myself take for granted, even though I’m under forty, there is still quite a generation gap it seems.

      • It ain’t HR anymore, Jack. It’s “workforce management office” and you’ll need to get in touch with “Strategic Human Capital Division Staff” and go through the “online application process.” That way, it’s all fair. Jeez, you think you can just go in and talk to the boss. WTF? That would be chaos!

    • Stop filling out applications and TALK to those that do the hiring. Go introduce yourself, ask them what they really need, etc. Offer to work for free for a day, ask if they know anyone needing help if they don’t. That is a start but a good one, application are to keep people as far away as possible and let some idiot in HR do all the work. But if you make a manager, owner, supervisor want you, they will tell the admin to just fucking do it.

      Now if you want a real course, get yourself over to JackSpirko.com and build a damn business so you don’t need a job. Otherwise you will eventually get a okay job, decide you want a business but then bitch that you don’t have time to build one due to your job.

      • Jack is right….If you sit on your ass filling out applications on the web ..You will never find a good job…Go to the business and ask to talk to the manager..Then knock their socks off with your personality, tell them you will work harder and smarter than anyone they have, you’ll work any hours on any day, smile show them you care….Then when they tell you to go online and fill out the application, leave them your name and information…You will stick out to them…It’s not hard to get a job unless you are doing it all on your computer …with a hope and a prayer

      • Jack
        At JackSpirko.com do you suggest starting with episode 1 and working through each episode, video, and post to the last one?

        • I really do recommend going from 1 forward there. WARNING extreme adult language warning on the business podcast. Many would be entrepreneurs need a major ass kicking to get moving you will find one in 5MwJ.

      • I’m about to fall in the footsteps of Jill Elizabeth, and not really liking the edge she has become accustom to. I dwell in my head too much already; it got me into this mess. I’m pretty sure more of the same won’t get me out of it.

      • The last two people I hired came as referrals. They had to go in and apply online like everyone else, but they were automatically added to the interview pile. They still had to impress me, but they got the look that some of you aren’t.

        My advice? Literally talk to everyone you meet -even if this is uncomfortable for you itnshould become part of your search. Let everyone you know be aware that you’re looking. Don’t be afraid to ask people if they’re hiring. Give your resume to people. Ask if you can email it to them… Makes it easier for them to share with others they might know.

        The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Good luck.

    • Lukkas not saying that you do it but I see so many young people who think that they are entitled to get a real first time job making the same or near the same wage as someone who has worked in a place for many years. Too many younger people I talk to won’t even consider a real “entry level” job because they believe they are worth more money. I know several 20 somethings right now who can get a good full time job but they feel it is beneath them. Sometimes in order to get the good jobs, people need to start with whatever they are offered in the job field they would like to work in order to get the right jobs listed in their resume. You may be doing this already since you have done the seasonal jobs but it is something to consider. I recently told my 23 year old nephew who would not take a job because it only pain $9.25 per hour the same thing. I seriously asked him why he thought he was worth more because he only worked a couple of part time jobs for no more than 5 months previously. He told me simply because he thinks he is worth more. He has no previous real job experience and no degree at all. I seriously think he may never get a good job but hope he grows up enough soon to think about what I said.

      • This is the epitome of the Douchebag Epidemic. Nobody is better than $9.25 an hour unless you prove it. That is always better than $0.00. He is choosing to fail for fear of trying and failing. The only way he can be like this is because he is being enabled by someone. Someone is paying his bills and someone is feeding him. If they stopped, he would figure out that nine bucks is way better than zero when at the grocery store. This KID, I use that on purpose, needs to have life happen very quickly to knock him back down to earth and hopefully there will someone there to support him, not pay for him, but support him as he goes through the grief associated with figuring out that he is not nearly as special as he thinks he is. You have to earn special, we are not born with it.

  3. Lukkas – That is an interesting single case example. If I was working with them, the long term goal would still be to have conjoint finances. In fact a person could make the argument that separate finances in this situation is actually enabling the problem and allowing gambling to still occur, just with only a limited impact on the family finances. This approach would allow her to not have to accept fully responsibility of what her actions are doing to the family. That hurt would need to exist in order to help implement change. The better case here would be joint finances with only the husband managing all the money and giving an allowance and work toward certain aspects of trust. Just my opinion though.

  4. Jack,

    I’m a new listener and I haven’t listened to this episode yet but I’m really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on “douchebag syndrome”. I’ve been in the child care field for over 10 years and the things I see are so appalling. I’d say a majority of children these days are house runners. They call the shots and tell Mom and Dad what to do. And I see this at very young ages. I had a 2 1/2 spit in my face yesterday when I asked him to put his toys away. Most of the children I work with a from pretty affluent families and they (parents included) have such a bizarre sense of entitlement.

    Parents are so afraid of disciplining their child for fear of “emotionally hurting” them. These toddlers and young children talk to their parents like peices of garbage and the parents just think this is normal behavior!

    I could go on and on with stories all day. It’s really sickening. So much so that I am really trying to get into a different field of work because I just cant deal with it anymore.

    • Sounds like you are in the ballpark on the “douchebag” syndrome so I do not think you will be disappointed. I know quite a few teachers that are so frustrated with the state of children these days that they are constantly looking for other jobs or opportunities. I don’t see it getting better anytime soon and there is no shame in exploring new ventures for the betterment of yourself.

      • Well my husband and I just recently got the opportunity to lease some land through a micro-farming program in our city. So we have about 4,000 square feet to farm. If all goes well, I’d like to aquire more land and do mostly urban farming. Hopefully when it gets going, I’ll be able to quit my job.

        It’s sad though, because we get these kids super young and most of them start out very sweet kids. And then as they get older they change. It’s not their fault. I think their are so many problems with society and the education system as a whole (starting academics way too early when kids should be playing and moving around is just one of my bugaboos), but I think a huge problem is that we don’t have multigenerational homes anymore and children are being raised by clueless parents who read books for parenting advice, they both need to work full time so they don’t have much time to parent. They pick up their kid from daycare at 5:30 and have to get home, make dinner, and get the kids to bed by 7. And I don’t necessarily blame the parents because they are stressed from working so much and dog tired when they come home from work. And you can see the kids are stressed and anxious too. It’s really sad.

        Anyways,

  5. Jack you said that the south didn’t invade the north but they did try. Gettysburg PA remember? And in Ohio on a couple of very small attacks.

    • Um, that would not be an invasion it is a response to an invasion.

      Say Canada attacked the US, stretch I know but imagine it is 120 years ago. After two years of war we now send troops across the border to try to end the war.

      No one would then say the US invaded Canada.

      The south didn’t attempt to move into Union territory to take over, but to cut off logistics, hopefully capture the capital and force a treaty allowing them to remain independent. It is how wars were fought you know when clear objectives were known by both sides as to what meant victory also at one time known as the end of a war.

    • Larry that’s a very different situation than what he’s describing. The south didn’t “invade”. They moved battles to the north so that more blood would be on their soils instead of just the south.

      The south didn’t ransack and destroy towns, raping and pillaging. The south didn’t restrict or control the north (not to the same extent). There was zero attempt by the south to ENFORCE anything anywhere, other than bringing the fight to the enemy.

  6. Wasn’t sure what to make of this episode from the title but listened to it b/c the guest is from my home, Michigan, and I have a lot of fam in the thumb. I was glad to listen to it. Really interesting info!

    Trevor, what’s it like having the permaculture/TSP mindset up in the Thumb? My fam is mostly big-agro farmers (800+ acres of soy, corn, beets), but they still have a pantry stocked from their garden. What’s your experience living in that area (surrounded by windmills….) with people who hold that seemingly contradictory position?

    For example, my aunt loves to bake. In their basement they have 5 or more 5lb bags of Gold Medal flour, though, they also grow 50+ acres of wheat (which to me seems contradictory).

    • Oh the windmills! I pass them everyday on the way to work. A preparedness mindset is easier to have than a permaculture mindset. This area still remembers old ways like canning and gardening so that part is okay. you look around and people still have knives and tools on their belts so no problems there. Permaculture is a foreign language. How can you grow without roundup, tilling, chemicals and big tractors. Its getting better, but still a struggle at times. what I have found is that some farmers that I talk to understand the healthiest way to grow food, but are stuck in the big-ag way due to bills. They somehow have to pay the land leases, combines and tractors and this subsidized way of farming will pay the bills. I think they struggle with the contradiction, but cannot break out of it. To some degree, I believe that is what is causing the age gap. 60 year olds are farming the big-ag way to pay the bills and that is what they already started and their kids do not want to inherit the debt so they go elsewhere. When you inherit these farms, you are almost trapped into farming that way. Permaculturing these farms would lead to a 2-3 year period of soil building that most farms cannot endure. So they are trapped.

      Thanks for listening and glad you enjoyed the podcast. Just so you know, the windmills are still spinning, the subsidized beets are growing and the GMO corn is definitely “knee high by July.”

      • Excellent. I’ll actually be up there Saturday for my cousin’s HS grad party. I have another cousin who just graduated from SVSU with a teaching degree. His plan is to farm as much as possible (on the 800+ ac farm) and substitute teach as much as possible to make up the money he needs to make it all work…

        I’m down in Detroit, but my wife and I might be moving to northern Macomb county in the next year or so b/c of a job, hoping to find a piece of land far enough in the country to do what we want with it.

      • So glad to “know” someone from the area. I am waiting to close on a little 3 acre farm in Carsonville. Hopefully we can get some permaculture community activities going in the area someday. I have not yet been able to actually meet anyone face to face or to work along side someone into permaculture. I took the PDC and hope to start the process of learning the land over the next few months so I can work on a design.

        • Awesome, the Carsonville area has a lot of potential for sure. One good way to meet may be to have you come up and help with chicken processing some day. We can always use some help there and that is a good way to meet.

        • Kim, if you look on facebook for either “AMPY (Abundant Michigan Permaculture Ypsilanti)” or “SOMI Perma-mixer (South Michigan permaculture mixer)” you’ll find some community. AMPY is based in ypsilanti, but I participate there (I live in Taylor currently), and there is a big contingent from the Transition Town in Chelsea. I think there’s also an Oakland County meet up and possibly a Macomb county one, too. SOMI is a twice yearly get-together of Michigan Permaculture communities. Our first event was in Ypsilanti. A month or so ago we did an event at Strawbale Studio in Oxford (a little closer to you). This fall we’re doing an event hosted by VanKal Permaculture in Kalamazoo. So, the community is here and growing! Hope to meet you both someday, Kim and Trevor. Also, Trevor, I’d be interested in helping with Chicken processing. I’ve done some processing with the quail, but I’d like to get a bit more experience with it.

        • Stephen, look me up on facebook and send a private message and we can connect and work on the chicken processing thing perhaps. We are not pros by any means, but we’ve done it before, we try to get better and can always use a few extra hands.

    • Hi neighbor Stephen, bummed I just heard about Permaculture in Michigan. I just sold my Southgate home and will be near my brother in the foothills of the Ozarks in Missouri.

      I only found out about all this stuff about a year ago. When I googled Permaculture in MI, nothing came up. Now I hear it so close to home I could cry.

      I have been slowly waking up for about 4 or 5 years, have gone through a lot of growing pains. coming out the other side a little wiser and getting stronger.

      I’d love to meet you Michigan Permaculturists before I leave though.

      Evelyn

  7. Also, meant to ask Trevor, why no quail? We just started raising them and so far, so good…

    • Too much too soon really. We may go there in the future, but turkeys could drop in easily into our current infrastructure, quail required more infrastructure inputs and we weren’t ready for that yet. Not hating quail, just not ready for them yet. Trying not to over do it!

      • I know where you are coming from on this one. I was offered a really nice sow who has already had an easy litter of 12 but had to turn her down because it is too much too soon. Hopefully when I am ready I will get the same opportunity.

        • That would be so tough to pass up, an easy farrowing sow. Probably a good choice to pass, but a tough one for sure.

    • After listening to the podcast all the way through and trying to attend as a listener, I have to agree that this was a pretty profound statement. Over the past few days I have been thinking about that statement more and more and am noticing it may be worse than I even thought.

      • It gives us good pause to look inner to see where we are lacking in our own lives, and how we need to personally step up for things. We can point to or imagine bad men and women, but other than identifying missing traits it doesn’t change anything. We could certainly all improve ourselves.

  9. Amazing episode, as a fellow Michigander I hope Trevor can come back again sometime. Thanks again to Jack for having the courage to road rage on the mic all those years ago, lol. Seriously shows like this help some of us that feel we are alone in the midst of total chaos know that we are in good company and have a like mindset.

    Dare to take a chance, after taking the plant propagation course and anticipating the advanced course this winter, we are opening a plant/tree nursery this fall. Some plants are already growing, more to come in 2016. I have already left the typical “job” and running sustainable garden design and consulting company. This was fase 1 to fund the eventual nursery.

    Thanks to Jack for starting TSP and for the community/guests that have also taken their lives back from the chaos for being motivation and inspiration.

  10. RE: Not worrying about what doesn’t directly affect you. I wanna share that when my third of four sons was in 6th grade (Middle School, Creston, IA, 1990s), he was forever being hounded by the school officials. In one particular circumstance he was sent to the school guidance counselor. This female “guidance counselor,” then contacted me to tell me of her grave concern over my son’s lack of empathy; yet another one of those “markers” on their psychiatric assessment lists. Her interjection to test him for this, which had nothing to do with the original cause of his being sent to her, was a current event in the news. There had been a plane crash and some passengers died in another state, like on one of the US coasts. She gave my son the news of this, then asking him how he felt about it. He told her he didn’t feel anything about it. OMG! Ding! Ding! Check Mark for the Criteria! Rather than search his mind for his personal reasons, which he shouldn’t have even been probed to have in the first place, she carried on with him about how awful it was that people died, and so on. After her call, which I cannot recall the transcription of, I simply asked my son why he felt nothing about it. He answered, “The crash was a long distance from him… He didn’t know any of the people on the plane… And there wasn’t anything he could do about it.” Sounds extremely intelligent and reasonable to me! People need to homeschool their children! The Government’s Public Schools K-12 are destroying the minds of our Nation, destroying people’s abilities to cope and be logical on a large scale. I say because the so-called professions of Social Work, Psychiatry and Pharmaceuticals have taken over the curriculum and the Elite outcomes desired. A lot could be elaborated on the latter.

    • and now MANY other special and business interests too, per Common Core Curriculum

      • There’s been quite a discussion going on beneath an original comment of mine at this link below, and I want to share my latest post of evidence, as it happened here locally, and Americans ought to be much more concerned, etc. – My Comment: Eddie & Matthew – my 4th son, while i was at work, was at a school evening event back in early 2000’s. he had just started high school. he’d always been an awesome, never in trouble at school, student from day one of kindergarten. he is in bathroom curious of what 2 other boys are doing in a bathroom stall. he had no money on him, just curiosity, so he went to door of stall… principle happens to walk in at that very moment. all 3 these boys were separated, then interrogated as criminals. police were never called. i worked over night shift. get home and notice next morning some thing is wrong with my son’s usual disposition. ask him bout it. he claims nothing wrong. early evening comes i ask him again. this time it all comes out. i call work to be covered while i deal with it. school administrator ends up hanging up on me because i will not accept the principle nor his insistence that my son confess to Intent To Buy Drugs, nor would i accept their insisting he do so and also serve out of school suspension, etc. I had witnessed this kind of bullshit before in the Iowa Schools prior to moving to Missouri. My son had been told that night of interrogation that me, his mother, is to report to the principle at 8am that monday after the weekend. this happened friday night. No one ever called me; no one had the balls as usual, they do this stuff all the time; cowards doing the bidding of the system and working to increase their federal funding! I let the principle think what he wanted all weekend while i talked to several young college students who were my co-workers and who had been home schooled until their college years; VERY FINE YOUNG PEOPLE i must say. i made up my mind i will pull this last child of mine out and homeschool him, which i did, and he got his diploma by age 16, then went to work, got his own car, then went to tech school a few years while working, and now he is a Master Mechanic for some time with Toyota. But anyway, I went in to see that principle after informing him i don’t even get off work until 8am and he had no right making a required appt with me without talking with me, and so i would be later there, etc. i let him go thru all his bullshit talk just so i could get the picture of how all this shit goes on, then i informed him my son will no longer be attending that school and that i am teaching him at home. my son still had access to all the school events and his friends, etc. a coach once flogged him about being homeschooled when he was at a game in front of all the other students in public. You think this shit doesn’t go on??? HA, you’re blind! and you don’t care! I’m so proud of this son, as i am my others for all their individual reasons and causes. Again, if you watch and actually hear the War on Kids documentary you will know that Public School doesn’t even get close to Socializing kids as they need for their futures. I have so many things to elaborate, but again, if Americans truly care they will stop being so preoccupied with themselves and actually investigate these things for themselves. have a good day. – oh, i want to add, IF you are a single parent you can count on some level of this bullshit from the system. You see, according to their strategies, your kids are at immediate risk of being some kind of deviant. plus if you are single they believe you are an easy weak target of which they can Bully. Yes, the system is full of arrogant bullies believing their shit don’t stink! https://www.facebook.com/JohnBirchSociety/videos/987209137985586/

      • In the United States the DSM serves as a universal authority for psychiatric diagnosis. And many American Workers; each with their own personalities, their own biases, and so on; collect info and data of which to fit other individuals, children and adults alike, into the far reaching (over-reaching) criteria, (of which all of us can be placed at various times of our lives), beneath the farce of so-called psych diagnoses, of which so-called professionals vote on among themselves in order to decide how to formerly evaluate and organize the entire U.S. population according to their own causes. Un-American!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5

        RE: Public School Mental Health Centers – Its not only Veterans getting these letters. Last night I heard from two different people who each knew someone who got such letters last month (so I assume many across the nation got letters of the same last month) from the Federal Government. In these letters the Federal Government told and declared each “Severely Mentally Disabled” and therefore banned, by the Federal Government, to own or possess any firearms. Furthermore, the Federal Government told and declared to each that No One living with them may own or possess any firearms. At least in one of these two cases, the Federal Declaration was based on a past, isolated reaction to a psychotropic medication. Another person in the circle of this conversation said they’ve heard the Federal Government is also doing this to anyone it has determined drinks too much alcohol. These declarations, to my understanding, are life long; without review nor discretion according to individual circumstances. It is my opinion that No Proud American ought subject themselves, their children nor any of their family and friends on what can be construed as mental health matters these days to any who are Mandatory Reporters and otherwise propagandized minions for the Psychiatric & Pharmaceutical Industries, i.e. social workers, nurses, doctors, teachers, psychologists, counselors, and so on; for these Industries are in cahoots with the Federal Government, which is in cahoots with the United Nations. Psychiatric Diagnoses and Mental Health is being used as a significant backdoor into the success of the UN’s Disarmament Treaty. Unbelievers can carry on as much as they like saying that the U.S. Government didn’t follow thru in actually being a party to this treaty, for what is going on says much different. Yes, there exists a minority of our population with some serious issues, but these days, for some time, Psych Diagnoses has been rampant without discretion or regard for situational or individual circumstance; without common sense. Be Careful What You Cry For and To Whom You Allow To Hear Your Cries. Its Big Business and its State Business, all rolled into one with great intentions of getting what they want. It may also turn out that the Big Business of Psychiatry, Pharmaceuticals, Healthcare, and related will be or are considered Government, rather than Big Business; since the current political direction of the White House, in union with the United Nations, is that of the Socialist Democrat Brother & Sisterhood; Socialists like to advocate they are not for Big Business such that they condemn in Capitalism… I want to add here: I find it highly unlikely it is mere coincidence the Confederate Flag of the South came down at the same time troops of Jade Helm, (training for riot control and disarmament), are stationed throughout the Southern States of our United States. http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/14629-why-is-the-federal-government-disarming-veterans

    • You are completely correct that Psychiatry and Pharmaceuticals have taken over education. I was talking to a co-worker of mine who has a daughter in a private Catholic high school. Her daughter is constantly asking her to go on ADD medication because all of her friends are on it and they are able to keep up with their school work. She also said that about 3/4 of her friends are on some kind of psychiatric pharmaceutical be it an anti-depressant or a stimulant.

      I’m 27 and I grew up in the age of ADD. I was diagnosed with ADD and put on meds when I was 8 and then 3 years later put on anti-depressants. I spent the rest of my school years on both those meds and actually just recently got off anti-depressants last year. I think it should be a crime to put children on psychiatric drugs without exploring every other option first. What kind of effects does that have on a
      developing brain?

      • As a psychologist, I am one of only a few avenues for ADHD diagnoses. Therefore, I get quite a few testing requests to attempt to diagnosis someone with this disorder. I can safely say that 8 out of 10 requests that I see are not ADHD. They have been told by teachers and school officials to get tested so that their child can perform similar to “normal” children. These kids are not ADHD 80% of the time. (I’d say 90%, but I’m going to underestimate). So what are they? These kids are stressed out, anxious, depressed, having issues adjusting to things at home, or just not able to process the material in the manner that the school presents it. Quite often, the medications help other kids be able to perform in the school setting. It “normalizes” them to the school setting only. So the requests are to help their children fit into the school system. This is what it has come to, we are medicating kids to fit into a system. Think of the corollaries to CAFOs where we have to heavy dose chickens and pigs with antibiotics to fit into these systems. A story of how this can actually negatively affect someone’s life: young man, 19yo comes to see me to prove he never had ADHD. Youngest of three kids by like 12 years and at the age of 13 his family moved him to a new school just after both of his older brothers moved out and went to college. This kid is struggling in school and not paying attention so school tells parents to take him to get meds. They don’t want him to fall behind so they listen and he gets prescribed meds. They take them for a month or so before they realize that it does not work. Okay, so the obvious thing here is young kid, new school, new home, brothers just left home. Who wouldn’t struggle with some adjustment? This was not ADHD, it was some mood or adjustment issue. Anyway, this kid dreamed of joining the Coast Guard, one of the more strict entry forces out there. Years of dreaming were squashed when they said they would not even look at him due to his past medication history. He was devastated. He needed the letter from me to try and convince the Navy that he never had ADHD and to still consider him.

      • I’d like to see Psychology trump Psychiatry and Social Work both. These latter two fields have always fostered corruption of what Psychology practices and unveils, to the harm of many human lives; these fields have no professionalism regarding “To Do No Harm.”

        • Gerry, while I’m not the hugest fan of how psychiatry is being used these days, I work with mostly social workers and they are fantastic clinicians and great therapists. The issue is not the fields of study or work, but the training that they have before seeing clients or patients. Psychiatry is mostly a medication prescription business because that is where the money is. Regarding schools, I see the issue being the lack of training of school and guidance counselors, specifically a lack of training in the issues that they are beginning to see more and more in the schools (i.e. schizophrenic breaks, significantly oppositional children, substance dependence). Oftentimes they are in these positions with limited training after transitioning from a teaching position. They desire to help, but the issues they are facing in the schools are “above their paygrade” much of the time. That is because the issues in the schools are more significant than seen in the past. Also, they are asked to do much more than they are qualified to do. School counselors make appropriate referrals to therapists, but them parents come back and say “why should I take Billy to a counselor, the school provides one for him.” Of course, this is the equivalent of taking your diesel big rig to a motorcycle shop. They may be able to figure out some stuff, but this is not their training or expertise. Again, we circle back around to parenting being a big part in this, most of it being a blind trust in certain professionals and a lack of desire to spend money in certain areas. Here is a scary example that we have seen more than once. Mom calls to set up appointment for daughter who is cutting herself and making suicidal statements. Our receptionist tries to get her in for same day service, as is our policy with a call like this. Mom is at work and can’t get out early. We try the next day. Nope. End result, she schedules an appointment for her self-harming, possibly suicidal daughter over a week down the road. Again, we have seen this more than once.

        • Trevor, I respect your position and your word. Appreciate your sharing. I still see the extreme feminist Social Work “profession” as one that has created and bestowed much damage on our society overall, especially in its activist activities, and the results of such. Individually, sure there are some great, helping people; one’s who probably went in to help and don’t have time or whatever to know the larger picture of their organization.

      • Trevor,

        Great response, as a matter of fact I pasted this into my facebook feed today.

        I hope that more parents wake up and decide that a young childs mind is too important to be supressed, stunted and put in a “Normal Box” Aka Public Education System.

  11. VERY refreshing ….glad to hear this show.
    We have a generation who knows so little that they can barely wipe their own………………nose.

  12. Trevor, Great interview I enjoyed listening to you. Hope you come back on the show.

    What advice would you give to someone who has a MSW that could do to further helping at risk kids stay off the drugs and still excel in school. I have a friend that just graduated and want to present some information to her or some ideas for her to be able to use her degree in a positive way.

    Thanks, you can contact me directly with any advice.

    Michael

    • The real question is why do they have to excel at school? What do we mean by that? If get all A’s and B’s is excelling, then there is a problem. I know many kids who’s definition of excel is to pass the necessary classes and spend every waking minute in a technical class learning a trade or working in the field at a job they can keep when they do graduate. In graduate school, I had a professor tell us that we were failing by getting A’s. This was a research design class and he pointed to two or three of us and said “You need to think about getting A’s because you want to be a professor or do research.” For the rest of us, he told us to pass the class and spend all of our extra time in skill building areas that would be more beneficial for us professionally. More time working with clients, more time teaching, more time learning business, etc. I have never forgotten those comments, because it was exactly how I felt about the class. Unnecessary and a hoop to jump through to appease an accrediting agency. I spent most of my extra time in clinical avenues and I am better for it. Who cares if I cannot set up a research project correctly?

      So back to the point, We have to define INDIVIDUALLY what it is to excel for the kids and then help them to achieve this. In fact, it requires difficult conversations like saying in a very nice way “you are not college material so stop wasting your time.” I’m a bit vocal today as you might be able to tell, no offense. For your friend, tell her that almost everything she learned in school was practically wrong, her real learning starts now and if she trusts her gut and tries to do no harm AND tries to help people by listening to what they really want, she will be fine. Large scope processes always leave out kids and they are usually the ones that need the most help. The troublemakers don’t care to get help and the good students don’t need as much guidance as we may think. Not to mention they are following a path they may regret later. That is up for them to find out later. Individual approaches to those that want to hear it give those that are listening the advice that they need.

  13. A mixed interview with one + I want to draw attention to and one minus.

    First, the “plus”: what a great discussion at the 1-hour mark between Jack and Trevor on how childhood experiences (at home and at school) can lead to resilience. Perhaps I read too much into this, but I was impressed by their joining the dots between:
    (a) the importance of experiencing real failure, disappointing and even humiliating failure, and being given the opportunity to learn from that experience on how to pull yourself out of helplessness and negativity by the bootstraps, and
    (b) the increase in PTSD among our troops and emergency service workers.

    I am not blaming any victim of PTSD, but I am saying that, in some cases, parents, schools and an over-protective culture can prevent young people from developing skills in problem-solving, resilience, fortitude, tenacity, resolve, self-sufficiency and the ability to guide, lead and inspire others. It requires parents and teachers to exercise tough love, not molly-coddling and not a wish that the kids always be “happy”.

    I know Jack has touched on the “teacup generation” before, but the discussion here was the most telling I have heard on the topic – because of the lessons that carry through into adulthood and parenthood. I hope Jack can give some thought into chairing a discussion with Trevor and a couple of others on this important topic.

    Second the minus. I listened to this podcast a few days after the 38 holiday makers were killed by an Islamic gunman in Tunisia. How could anyone think of holidaying in Tunisia just a few months after the Bardo Museum massacre there of tourists? Jack and Trevor suggested we turn off the news to de-stress. But by remaining ignorant, you could be setting yourself up for a disaster – even while on a sunny summer holiday.

    Of course, the tour company should have notified intending holiday makers about the Bardo shooting. It appears they didn’t. But we have to do our own risk assessments and turning off the news is not the way to learn about risks coming from left field.

    I’m with Jack and Trevor and agree we need ways to avoid becoming news junkies with the addictions and neuroses this can lead to. On the other hand, remaining ignorant is not a sound strategy. Best to pick a few low-key, not over-excited websites that offer daily e-mails of the last 24 hours’ news. Pick websites you DON’T necessarily agree with but which have a broad, global coverage (New York Times, Russia Today, BBC, Google News, Wall Street Journal) and that way you won’t miss the left-field items you will miss if you don’t venture out of the echo chamber. Ignore websites that exist to wind you up (Fox News, InfoWars). By skimming their daily alert e-mails, you can cover all the news that you should be aware of (just aware, not fully informed) in less than 5 minutes.

    • Keith, thanks for the info in both directions. On the minus, I actually do agree with you and can admit that I check CNN.com 2-3 times a day and scan the headlines and click on something if it catches my eye. Usually, this lasts less than a minute and I’m on to something else. I also do not like to feel “out of the loop.” I think we could have been more specific in the interview in terms of watching news channels religiously, watching the nightly news every morning, noon, evening and night and/or obsessively following stories with which one has no connection.

      Interesting fact about trauma in psychology, it is often viewed as the perceived threat of harm or death to yourself or someone else that kicks of trauma. Key word there is perceived. Now we throw in the “teacup/permissiveness” issues that we are having and we wonder what kind of perceptions we are raising. That is why in my office I see people with trauma from the equivalent of a “mental skinned knee” and I see some people with no trauma issues, but have faced more literal traumas than one can imagine. Its all perception and how you look at it. Unfortunately, this starts by how we were parented and raised and goes back to how a parent reacts with the two-year-old bumps his head.

      Finally, great idea on a panel discussion regarding the teacup generation and issues we have with parenting. I would be all over that and would definitely make some time to take part!

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