Episode-608- Listener Calls 2-17-11 — 81 Comments

  1. Dervaes just lost all credibility with me. Kelly Coyne and Eric Knutzen’s book The Urban Homestead: Your Guide to Self-sufficient Living in the Heart of the City was published before Dervaes filed his trademark.

  2. @Dr. Richard,

    Yes it is all but impossible for them to attack the authors book directly but what they are doing is petitioning Google to delist the url for the book on amazon. This took a level of effort far beyond what these people claim to be doing.

    Again read the link from the show notes and note the amazon link they want taken out of the google index

  3. I’d pegged Derveas as an arrogant LA lefty turd from the first video I saw of him. I know Jack has always thought the spade in the air was a cool rebelous image but to me it was another “look at me, I’m special!” personal marketing promotional idea. Not to take away from their acheivements but crap of this caliber does not surprise me in the least. Maybe this “type” of personality is not so easy to spot when your not in the midst on the Left Coast.

  4. Urban homestead urban homestead urban homestead urban homestead urban homesteading urban homesteading urban homesteading

    SO THERE! (Thinking about posting to my blog that will use those phrases multiple times..)

  5. On the topic of keeping cows on smaller patches of land, you could keep 2 miniature Zebu on an acre of land. Check out the article I found at

    I have 7 acres and have gotten myself a holstein/jersey cross milk cow and am looking at getting a pair of zebu to try out in comparison. They can produce a gallon of milk per day and will give more meat than a goat and jump less fences. All that remains for me is to see how much feed vs goats they need. They could well come out ahead of goats for efficiency of keeping for the smallholder type farms.

  6. Jack-

    Lemme Google them for you:

    “This blog is run by Kelly Coyne and Erik Knutzen authors of The Urban Homestead (Expanded and Revised Edition): Your Guide to Self-Sufficient Living in the Heart of the City and Making It: Radical Home Ec for a Post-Consumer World.”

    • Also from their blog:

      “We learned that we lean toward the practical rather than the aesthetic, so we focused on feeding ourselves, and tangentially, all of the beneficial wildlife we can attract. Growing food led inevitably to learning about storing, preserving and cooking food. Add some hens to the mix, as well as good friends and neighbors with similar interests, Erik’s bicycle obsession, Kelly’s survivalist obsessions, and good deal of homemade beer. A lifestyle was born!”

      Homemade beer and a survivalette sounds like a potential interview show!

  7. As I read the first part of the take down notice, I saw nothing wrong with what they were saying: “If you quote us, do it right. and Don’t twist what we say and Don’t steal from us.”

    Hey nothing wrong with that, but then…they go and demand that people stop using special tearms they put trademarks on that are common usage words? Then to demand that Amazon de-list a book writen before they applied for trademark? Just wrong.

    I plan on spending $12 to buy the book on my next order for my spring break reading.

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  9. Ordered my copy of “The Urban Homestead” and some other stuff to get the free shipping.. hippie jerks. (Dervaes)

  10. You have mentioned Victory Gardens, or is it Victory Seeds. Not seeing a link anywhere. Thanks,


  11. They think they can trademark “Freedom Gardens”?!?!? Who the hell do they think they are? That is a term older than any of their sorry butts. Why not try to trademark “New Deal” while they are at it? Morons…

  12. Can I say urban homestead? Will this url be delisted if urban homestead is mentioned with giving the credit? Or is urban, homestead urban homestead, urban homestead…. what if I mean to spell urban homestead but misspell it? Will the owners of urban homestead sue me or flunk me? What if some Asians start a turban homestead, is that an encroachment on urban homestead? What if I got it backwards as in homestead urban? Who owns rural homestead? Monsanto? Or suburban homestead, isn’t that you Jack? Don’t you live in the suburbs, better copyright that before they do.

  13. Boy was I surprised when upon starting your podcast today I heard you refer to the link I posted on your facebook account yesterday. I am honored that you took the time to follow my link and then to bring to light the unfairness shown to those authors by these twisted people. I am a proud member of the MSB and plan to continue my support as long as you continue to provide such an excellent service. I actually look forward to your podcasts on a daily basis. I will even stop the audiobook I am listening to so that I can hear your podcast the minute I know it is available each day. You have made the miles pass by quicker for this over the road trucker. From one veteran to another, Thanks for your service…Jimbo

  14. I noticed their site has been nominated for a “Webbie” award. That actually generates a lot of traffic. You can vote them down at this link, under the “Topical Blog” category.

    Not to suggest that any of their competition is really worth supporting either, it’s all pointless dribble in my opinion. But at least the others aren’t using lawyers to leach words out of the zietgeist and squelch competing ideals or concepts that don’t directly serve their finances.

    Even after hearing today’s show, I just couldn’t believe it until I read it straight from their site. I had a feeling from seeing their YouTube Videos that they were left-leaning and a little smug about it. But do they really believe the so-called “Path to Freedom” is paved with C&D orders issued to anyone who utters a certain word without their consent? If so, their view of liberty is as perverse as it is illogical.

    If you want to support the Book on Amazon, it still ranks number one on Google searches for “The Urban Homestead”. Search it, and click the gray star next to the link to help promote it as a valid hit on the search results.

    The Authors of the book run a site, and while there doesn’t appear to be any official statement about the complaint on the site, there is a twitter post regarding it.
    If you wanted to contact them, the WhoIS from GoDaddy lists the full details, including an email address. Given the name in the e-mail address, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were already listeners of this show. Their blog looks good, I’ll be subscribing to it, not as a gesture of pettiness against the Dervaes’, but because it’s worthy of my attention on it’s own merits. If you want a good go-to site to recommend to your listeners, they could be a worthy replacement for the Dervaes’ site. Their topics are a bit more diverse, which makes them all the more useful in my opinion, and the site has quite a few entries dating back to 2006, so they are somewhat established.

  15. This might not be the best spot, but it’s related to the urban homestead. I have a small row home type property and we’ve tried our hand a growing a few things in 5g buckets the last couple years. It’s labor intensive moving and storing all the bucket. I have very little dirt available and my dog thinks he’s part cow. He eats everything. I love the food forest idea and your advise to grow rare things. I want to put chard in my only dirt area and talk to my neighbor about planting vines on our common chainlink fence. We are on good terms so it should be fine. The fence gets plenty of sun. I like the sound of nuts and kiwi’s. We also have some room along out house, but it’s on the North side. I think the rabbits will go there and maybe some reishi logs. Any suggestions for the shade or fence.
    I just found your show a few weeks ago and I’m hooked. We share many views and even use some of the same phrases about money, debt etc. I’m that guy with the small cheap house and old but paid for car. If I was the Mcmansion corvette driving guy we would have lost everything when I suffered a back injury 2 years ago. Thank God for being frugal. Keep up the good work. Thanks

  16. Ordered my copy of the book and one for my daughter.too! What scum ! I remember the term “urban homestead” being used over twenty years ago when I lived in Arizona! People will do anything for a few bucks! They should just be ashamed of themselves,what california trash,gives the state and the hard working people there a bad name,such scum!

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  18. As a long time follower of both you and the Dervaes amongst others I was quite surprised to hear the issues with the Dervaes. As a long time supporter of their work it came as a shock. BUt not so much as everyone seems to be turning this topic into a money making for profit business. To me not so. A free exchange of information the way it should be..

  19. I am disappointed but not surprised to learn this information about the Dervaes family. The lesson here should be to always be discerning about everyone, even people you think you know and trust.

  20. Jack in my opinion you are knee jerking and over reacting.
    The Dervaes Family are doing wonderful work.
    You are too.

    So why dump on people because they aren’t grateful to you or act in a manner which you approve of?
    What they do or say; or don’t do or say; doesn’t bother me a bit and I’ve been at it much longer than you have.

    There is an enormous philosophical chasm between both world views that cannot be crossed.
    Nevertheless both of you believe in what you are doing and are trying to make a living by it.
    I think that’s great.

    That said I do understand completely why the Dervaes Family would not care to be interviewed by The Survival Podcast.

    The Dervaes Family will have a hard time with their DMCA complaint.
    It will not stand up to even the simplest of scrutiny.
    A trip to the local public library will shoot down their complaint.

    “Urban Homestead” and “Urban Homesteading” are terms that have been used and kicked around since at least 1969 – probably earlier – I’d have to check.
    “Modern Survivalist” and “Modern Survivlism” are terms that have been around since at least 1977 when I first heard them – but you are too young to know about that.

    Lastly, Judge Andrew Napolitano (I love him!) is hardly an encyclopedic wealth of traditional and non-traditional American agrarian movements – “distributionists” “back to the landers” “preppers” “homesteaders” “survivalists” etc. – so you might want to forget using that argument to support your point of view.
    Just because he said it doesn’t make it true.

    I’m still waiting for my link and shout out.
    Or did you forget?
    I didn’t 🙁

    • @Granny, you are entitled to your opinion but I completely disagree. As for the vast chasm argument I find it bull shit but I basically accepted it was how they felt so in spite of it I like I said continued to support them and send them visits for a long time after they refused to come on TSP. The recent actions though are the acts of a bunch of greedy idiots.

      The big thing is I think they have screwed themselves. Perhaps a few people will still support them but I think they just destroyed their own success. Karma is a bitch you know.

      As for your link, did I promise you, no I don’t remember but if I did refresh me as to what I promised I always keep my word unlike some people.

      • I agree.
        The Dervaes Family has really made a mess for themselves.

        It really is very bad for their business but in the long run I don’t think it isn’t anything they can’t weather.
        It’s actually kind of funny because obviously Jules really hasn’t a clue about how DMCA complaints work and he wasted a lot of money lawyering for nothing if you ask me.

        Yes you promised 2 times to link to me in the last year and asked if I’d be interested in an interview about 2 years ago.
        The interview probably not – Nick La Dieu can interview both me & my husband the next time he’s here if he likes.
        The link is appreciated because I’ve got information and a lifetime of common sense and experience that may be a value to your readers and listeners.
        My recent Water Glass post is a good example of that.

        Hope you enjoy your weekend at you “Bug Out Location”.
        Someday it work be fun to have a conversation with you about why the entire idea of “bugging out” is symptomatic of a throw away society and is in my view not a traditional American response to adversity or revolution.
        I mean after all, where would we be today if everybody decided to “bug out” of Boston after Bunker Hill or Lexington and Concord or at the Alamo?
        Good thing for us they decided to “bug in”.

    • So why dump on people because they … [don’t] act in a manner which you approve of?

      Seriously? Did you really just ask this question? I’m really confused as to how you could possibly be a fan of TSP and not understand this.

      There are many, many reasons why you ought to stand up against people and ideals who don’t act in a manner which we approve of.

      One of those reasons is good old free market capitalism. You don’t continue to spend your money, your time, or your energy on companies and movements that do not represent you. You use your money, your time, and your energy on companies and movements that DO represent you. And when you have as many listeners and/or fans as Jack does, and you’ve made a mistake regarding your money, time, and energy, it is IMPERATIVE that you remedy that where every single person who listens to you can hear it (ie – on the podcast).

      What the Dervaes are doing is absolutely reprehensible. Reprehensible means, “Open to criticism.” They have done something that has made their company, their names, and their work open to criticism. They are worthy of being named greedy tools, and if Jack had NOT stepped up and said something about them after the things he’s done to make their work seen by this audience, I’d worry about his moral character.

      What they do or say; or don’t do or say; doesn’t bother me a bit and I’ve been at it much longer than you have.

      What does this have to do with anything? So you allow people to take away others freedoms, and you don’t mind, so why should Jack? Really?

      Do you understand what’s going on here, Granny Miller? I get the impression that you don’t have a clue. The Dervaes aren’t just acting in a way that hurts themselves. Nobody would care one whit if they were pounding a nail into their foot. What they’re doing is walking around harassing grass-roots bloggers in the urban homesteading community. They’re destroying what others have built, they’re attacking what others have written of their own accord, and they’ve got the gall to act as if they’re the ones who ought to be pitied. It’s sick. It’s wrong. And it’s rephresensible.

      Perhaps if somebody where to come and tell you that you’re no longer allowed to do whatever it is that you do, because another newer company has paid the government to tell you that you don’t have the right to do it anymore, you’d understand why Jack and the rest of us are so flippin’ pissed off about this.

      • SW –
        The Dervaes are pounding sand in a rat hole.
        It doesn’t matter what they say or do.

        I’ve got some experience with DMCA copyright infringement and complaints and in my opinion they’ve got a tiger with no teeth. It is unenforceable and Google will not honor it if it is challenged.

        Nothing will change and Jack can do or say pretty much whatever he likes as long as it isn’t slander or libel.

        We are all Free Human Beings no matter what Jules Dervaes thinks or says. I’m sure he has a point of view too and I would like to hear his side of all this.

        Jack has a loyal following and nothing will change that.
        Ditto the Dervaes.
        same goes for all the other Bloggers.

        All of us live every day of our lives with companies that have paid the federal and state governments to tell us what we can and can’t do.
        We all do pretty much what we want to do any way – at least I do.

        Hope you have a wonderful weekend and the weather is good where you are 🙂

  21. Thanks for all you do Jack. I know that you are a very busy man… I don’t know how you do it!!!

  22. Jack

    I am somewhat bewildered that you would be surprised at the Dervaes. Perhaps your experience is different than mine, but I have never encountered any cadre more scheming, materialistic, and money grubbing than committed leftist/collectivists, especially those acolytes of “green” theology. Even if someone provides “good” information on a narrow topic, when I do the due diligence and read or hear them espousing collectivist garbage, I know that sooner or later they will stab us in the back. Unfortunate, but reality.

    GREEN: Globaloney for the Gullible.


  23. Granny,What the Dervaes do would be fine if it did not infringe on the rights of others.What they are doing IS infringeing on the rights of the people who wrote that book and any others who use the terms they are copyrighting.They need to be called on it.Injustice should never be ignored! Its fine you have experience in copyright laws But to fight it takes money and why should anyone have to hire a lawyer to fight such bogus bulls%#t? Blackfedora says it far better then I can.

  24. Just ordered a copy of “Urban Homestead” and it looks like a real good read. I also ordered the Kindle and will also download the Kindle version of the book once I get it.

  25. Keeping warm in a car in cold weather is tough. Sort of like sitting in a fridge & your the only warm thing left in it.
    I always keep a couple of emergency blankets in my SUV as well as a fleece blanket. In my GHB I have a couple packs of those Hot Hands. They are good for several hours so they should get you through at least 1 night in a car & you can always shove them in your shoes to keep your feet warm.
    The other key is Calories. Food is life & if you can eat, that alone will help keep you warm.

    On a side note, I remember way back in the 80’s when TSR Inc. copyrighted the term “Nazi” because they noticed nobody had done it.
    I don’t think they made a dime off of it & I never noticed that anyone stopped using that word either.

  26. Jack & Everybody Else – YOU WERE RIGHT & I WAS WRONG.
    I’m the one who knee jerked and didn’t have all the facts.

    Just finished reading Jules Dervaes response in The Bay Citizen regarding K.Ruby Blume (ugh!) & went through his paperwork at the U.S. Trademark Office(your tax dollars at work).
    Hope he’s got plenty stashed away for a rainy day…because it’s starting to pour.
    I’ll bet he’s going to be going bankrupt real soon if if doesn’t change lawyers and his tune.
    Such a shame.

    • Granny,

      I had to like your post. It’s tough for most people (myself included) to step back and reverse their thinking, especially when others are arguing with them. I know it’s silly, but I’m proud to have been arguing with somebody who was willing to actually come back and make a statement of retraction when she thought it was due.

  27. Jack I don’t think you were wrong to continue to link to the Dervaes Family website even after they declined to be on your show because of some of your ‘views’. It shows that you were willing to overlook minor differences in opinion in order to educate people about food, gardening, etc … Something they apparently can’t do.
    I assume their problem with TSP was the gun issue and also your position on the theory of man-made global warming. Maybe I’m crazy but I don’t understand how someone could be so narrow minded and not just focus on the bigger picture.

  28. Jack, I heard you speak of the desire to actually license your own terms in a way that would not allow other entities to do evil things with them. I might suggest you look into such licensing as Creative Commons and many of the other open source software licenses Open Source Licenses specifically GPL, if nothing else for reference.

    I think protecting the free use of your work is just as imperative as garbage corporate types jailing everyone from doing the same with their work.

    Love what you do sir…

    A recent but addictive listener, and soon to be MSB .

  29. Jack, I vehemently deplore what the Dervaes Family is doing. “Petty” does not even begin to describe it. However, please allow me to offer to you the following caution regarding your public request in this podcast for a lawyer out there in your listenership who might be willing to help you trademark the phrase “modern survivalism.”

    I am not a lawyer, but I am a writer. And while I am not familiar with US Trademark Law, I am familiar with US Copyright Law. And the courts have taken the position that if you (a writer) copyright your novel or your movie or your TV show, etc, but then if you subsequently FAIL to protect that copyright, you have essentially “abandoned” the copyright and then the “Intellecual Property” is no longer yours and instead has become Public Domain. Therefore, when a wildly popular book or movie comes along (like Hary Potter or Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings, etc) the people who OWN the copyrights on the material (or the “Intellectual Property”) cannot let themselves ever fall slack in the task of endlessly policing any non-authorized usage of said Property. It’s a pain in the butt for George Lucas to have to staff one entire office devoted JUST to the never-ending task of issuing Cease and Desist Letters to people and companies and merchants who infringe on the Star Wars legacy, but he HAS to, or he could lose the whole shootin’ match of what is essentially a huge chunk of his ongoing income (the selling of Star Wars merchandise).

    That’s Copyright Law. But now let me turn to Trademark Law.

    You have stated here in this podcast that you’re thinking about maybe having a lawyer a) help you trademark the phrases “modern survivalist” and “modern survivalism,” and then b) help you make the public declaration that anyone can use those phrase freely. While I do not know if Trademark Law is the same as Copyright Law, if it IS the same, the I am worried that perhaps the “b” part of your plan might very well be the legal undoing of the “a” part.

    If you DO get an attorney to help you do this, please make sure he is one well-versed in Trademark Law, (ie, not a real estate attorney or a divorce attorney, etc).

    Good Luck

    –Oil Lady

  30. Jack,

    A friend of a friend is close palls with Kelly Coyne, and so via 3 degrees of separation, I have just secured Kely Coyne’s e-mail address. How can I get it to you?

    –Oil Lady

    • Ah– allow me to supercede the prior post of mine.

      I just found out that the e-mail address I was given just now is not Kelly Coyne’s PERSONAL e-mail. It’s her public e-mail as posted on her blog. So no need for me to be so discreet with it.

      Here’s Kelly Coyne’s blog:

      And here’s the e-mail address as found on that blog:

      Meanwhile, there is threat of a lawsuit by Kelly Coyne’s publisher against The Dervaes Family. Her publisher is Adam Parfey, described in Reason magazine as one of the pricipals at Process Media, the publishig house that put out Kelly’s book. And here’s the article in the recent issue of Reason magazine detailing the impending lawsuit:

      The upshot of such an impending lawsuit is that it’s quite possible that Kelly Coyne and Erik Knutzen might be obligated to simply give a great big “no comment” for now. So please be prepared for exactly that from her.

      –Oil Lady

      (PS — Her name is pronounced exactly the same as the word “coin.”)

  31. @Oil Lady and all trying to sync me up with the authors. I am already in contact with them and will be setting up an interview.

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  33. Regarding being stuck in a cold car: tea lights work surprisingly well for a little extra heat.

    • I wonder if you could melt snow to drink using the heat from the engine? Put it in a container and put it under the hood when the engine runs.

        • You wouldn’t want to do that too much though. Especially if all you’ve got is ice (brainfreeze!).

          I’m wondering if you could keep soup mixes in your emergency kit and mix in water melted/warmed in the engine.

  34. regarding heat in car… get naked and snuggle! (sorry was this inappropriate?)

    Your willingness to do this might depend on who is sharing the car with you 😀

    LMAO (but in all seriousness this does work)

    • Does work, even if you keep your clothes on. Years back I was backpacking with a group in the Tetons. One friend from Hawaii could never get warm. One night we were camping next to a frozen lake. So my sister and I helped her out. Put all 3 insulated pads under us, put 2 bags together somehow, and 3rd one either on top or underneath. Three of us in the double bag, woke up quite warm, surprised to see rest of the group huddled around the campfire they’d been trying to keep warm all night.

  35. With due respect, there are two things I would like to add about the Food Safety Modernization Act that are not commonly mentioned.

    1. According to, S510 (now law) was appropriated by gutting and replacing the text of HR 2751 (originally the Consumer Assistance to Recycle and Save Act that was a cash for clunkers type bill that had been laying around for a year). Govtrack does not show a second vote by the house and I am assuming the house did not vote on the actual verbiage that ended up in the law. If I am assuming correctly, how in the world is that legal??? I’d love to see a show on “sneaky ways our government passes legislation”!

    2. The Tester amendment is a big relief (as an aspiring direct market farmer), but has it’s pitfalls. It covers up to $500k in sales as long as over half is direct marketed. This will push a lot of small producing wholesalers into requiring HACCP (Hazardous Analysis & Critical Control Points). It will also push direct market farmers to to keep more detailed records in case the 51% ever has to be proven. It will also affect the Salatins ($2M in sales) among other larger direct marketers. It may make me feed my surplus to the critters rather than sell at the produce auctions if I ever get close to the halfway mark.

    As far as affecting gardens, I agree, it absolutely does NOT! I wish that rumor would die. I’ve squished it many times with people asking me questions about it, but it seems to have 9000 lives.

    • There is an article regarding this legislation in the March/April issue of Countryside Magazine, pg. 72.

      It states that the Dept of Health and Human Services has been quoted saying that Americans do not have a fundemental right feed themselves or their families the food of their choice. This legislation gives them the right to ban foods they deem “high risk” such as raw milk. That is where it begins, but where does it end?

      I completely understand that this bill does not take away my right to grow tomatoes, nor will it put an end to farmer’s markets. But there is definitely an errosion of freedom and I’m afraid it is just the beginning.

      For more information visit

      • @Britni,

        Having read the law (all of it including amendments) I can tell you NOTHING in the law, “that Americans do not have a fundemental right feed themselves or their families the food of their choice. This legislation gives them the right to ban foods they deem “high risk” such as raw milk.”

        Nothing not a single word of it! Just because some assclown in the Dept of Health and Human Services may or may not have said this has nothing to do with what they have the legal right to do or what this law actually says.

        IN SHORT STOP IT! For God sakes if anyone is going to infer that anything is in this law and be taken seriously at this point they need to quote the part of the law they are referring to.

        For two years people have been making claims about this law and I would estimate few then 1% have read it. The law is a bad idea but almost noting the resistance says about it is true. And you wonder why we fail to beat legislation like this?

        • Sorry to have upset you, I was simply quoting the article. The Dept of HHS is currently in litigation regarding aspects of this legislation, I was referring to documents from that litigation. After reading my post I can see that was unclear.
          Perhaps the article is incorrect. I still don’t like this law.

        • @Britni

          No it isn’t you and you personally did not upset me. I have just been dealing with the propaganda around this law for two year now. I honestly believe we could have defeated it IF the propaganda had not started.

          My responses to the law going forward need to always be seen as far more broad then the individual I am responding to.

  36. For staying warm in your car, Old metal coffee can, a little sand in the bottom, and some good candles. The heat from the candles will keep a modern car about 45 degrees with all but one window rolled up and the last window open just a crack. We’ve done it more than a few times winter camping here in Wisconsin in January. Temps in the low or negative ranges, and our Mini-Van stayed relatively comfy all night.

  37. Just a few bits of trivia unearthed by myself and a few of my writer friends i the past 48 hours:

    1) An article from a 1980 edition of Mother Earth News where they cite state and federal legislation dating all the way back to the 1960’s about a special kind of real estate venture called “urban homesteading.” The actual title of the artice itself is “Urban Homesteading.”

    2) A law school text book published in 1925 which cites a court case dating back to the 1890’s about a piece of real estate which this 1925 book describes as an “urban homestead.” The text book is called Veronon’s Revised Annotated Civil Statutes of the State of Texas, 1925.

    “An urban homestead is lost by abandonment with the intention not to return, Keller vs. Beattie, Civ. App, 34 S.W. 667.”

    3) Another law school book published in 1878 devoted entirely to the concept of a homestead, with one whole chapter just on the “urban homestead.” This book is entitled “A Treatise on Homestead and Exemption Laws,” by Seymour Dwight Thompson.

    “I have concluded to state the cases on this subject in detail, in each case setting out so much of the statute as underwent construction, and giving the reasons on which the respective courts have proceeded; and for convenience of grouping I shall divide them into two classes, according to their facts, namely, those which relate to the urban homestead, and those which relate to the rural homestead.”

    Just for conversation’s sake.

    -Oil Lady

  38. Here’s an interesting find concerning a small East Coast business established back in 1992….

    The web address of the business reads as “Old VA Apples” (and I believe the “VA” stands for “Virginia”). They are a group of orchardists who specialize in supplying a wide variety of young new apple trees (and I believe they are all “heirlooms”) for established orchards and for those just starting out. (As a side note, it seems that their orcharding expertise focuses exclusively on apple trees, but not pears or peaches, etc. Meanwhile, they also offer blueberries and “edible ornamentals.”)

    However, the phrase “Old VA Apples” turns out NOT to be the actual name of their business. Instead, when you click into their web site, their homepage has a top banner which proudly sports the official logo of this company, as well as the official name of the company:

    “URBAN HOMESTEAD — specializing in old Virginia apple trees”

    (I wonder if they have a trademark on that logo!)

    And beneath that name-bearing and logo-bearing banner, we read the following blurb: “Welcome to the Urban Homestead. Since 1992, we have helped supply home orchardists with some of the best apples ever grown. If you have any questions about the varieties we list, or would like more information about custom grafting, please contact us. We look forward to supplying [your orcharding needs(?)].(The end of that blurb has been cut off by a web glitch or maybe a bit of bad code.)

    When we dig further into this web site and click into their “Catalog” link, we find that the title of their catalog is “Urban Homestead.”

    And we are also encouraged there on the “Catalog” page to write to the following snail-mail address to obtain a hardcopy catalog:

    To order a print version of the catalog send $ 3.00 to:
    Urban Homestead, 818 Cumberland St., Bristol, VA 24201

    If anyone wants to e-mail them, their e-mail address is:

    *** *** *** *** ***

    Hey, Jack! Have you ever before had a guest speaker on TSP who was an orchardist?

    –Oil Lady

    • Two points as an addendum to the information on these orchardists from Virginia:

      1) Their web site –and their AOL e-mail address– has been up and running since at least 2005.

      2) They are a mom & pop business, run by husband and wife Tim and Donna Hensley, helped by their 7 children, Caleb, Asher, Micah, Jonathan, Molly, Aiden, and Eli.

      –Oil Lady

  39. @Granny Miller

    First I am doing a new comment post as a response to you in sum total to several of your posts because it is easier then doing each one individually.

    1. I have added your blog to my blog roll, if I promise something I do it even if I forget once reminded I do it.

    2. Like Sis I am impressed that you admitted being wrong about defending any part of what the Dervaeses are doing.

    3. Your question as to “Someday it work be fun to have a conversation with you about why the entire idea of “bugging out” is symptomatic of a throw away society and is in my view not a traditional American response to adversity or revolution.” Makes me wonder if you listen to the show at all or just browse my show notes. The question is so detracted from the concept of a BOL as I discuss and advocate it as to really not be something I should even answer.

    A BOL is a fall back location it isn’t about throwing away anything, for me it is 5 acres I will live on for many years. Before I got to the place I am now at and had to work in a large city (like many of my audience) it was a place to go if the shit hit the fan. I have done many episodes about bugging out and it always comes down to “you bug out when it improves your odds of survival”.

    As for bugging out not being “not a traditional American response to adversity or revolution.” I wonder if in that “lifetime of learning” you mention if you ever actually really studied the American Revolution (the facts of it), we won the revolution precisely by, for lack of a better term “running away”. Washington and other commanders bugged out as a matter of course only standing to fight when they had the advantage. And like another commenter said America is composed of people who bugged out to come here. Your question in short on its’ face mischaracterizes everything I have said and taught about the concept of a BOL.

    4. Your comments here and at other times seem to seek a sort of moral relativism from me. I find it extremely hard to understand why you would expect this knowing my work over the last 2.5 years. TSP is a community built on a very clear cut set of principles and they create a pretty damn clear line between right and wrong.

    It is nice you admitted to being wrong about Jules Dervaes and all but I am speaking more to the over all tone, you past complaints about my occasional vulgarity, your own desire for exposure on my site but refusal to come on the show, your somewhat lecturing tone you have used in emails and other comments to me etc.

    I am not a politician and I am not here to try to make friends with all people. I do not hesitate to condemn any action I deem evil, immoral or moronic. Why you constantly seem to come off like you know better how to run my show than I do mystifies me.

    To be blunt, age alone doesn’t make one wise, and being loved is far less important to me than being clear about my principles, what I stand for and being uncompromising in my moral fortitude. Many people may disagree with me but none can deny my clear language, willingness to back up everything I say and loyalty to my audience as a whole vs. the feelings of a few individuals who are some how offended or hurt by calling a spade a spade.

    You don’t get moral relativism at TSP you get honest fact and honest opinion. I am not here to save polar bears or the wales I am here to help people keep their asses alive and thriving no matter what does or does not come our way. My show is The SURVIVAL Podcast not “An Hour of Moral Relativism with Jack Spirko”.

    • To be blunt, age alone doesn’t make one wise, and being loved is far less important to me that being clear about my principles, what I stand for and being uncompromising in my moral fortitude. Many people may disagree with me but none can deny my clear language, willingness to back up everything I say and loyalty to my audience as a whole vs. the feelings of a few individuals who are some how offended or hurt by calling a spade a spade.

      You don’t get moral relativism at TSP you get honest fact and honest opinion. I am not here to save polar bears or the wales I am here to help people keep their asses alive and thriving no matter what does or does not come our way. My show is The SURVIVAL Podcast not “An Hour of Moral Relativism with Jack Spirko”.

      Fuckin’A, Jack. Keep on keepin’ on.

    • Jack –
      Just saw the comment you left for me 🙂 I fear I can’t completely do you or it justice in such a limited space – but I’ll try.

      First – right up front – I admire your work and I wish you much success and all the good things this life has to offer. I like you very much and wish you were my neighbor.

      That said, yes I have listen to your show quite a bit in the past and still do listen to your show on occasion. But honestly I don’t listen too much anymore because in my opinion at times what I’m hearing has no foundation or basis in experience and is pure theory and conjecture.

      I think you are fantastic with guns, business advice and have a real gift in communicating basic economic principles to people. But IMO you are all wet behind the ears when it comes to some things – permaculture is the one example that comes to mind at present.

      I’m a student of American History.
      We didn’t win the War for Independence because George Washington “bugged out” of New York or New Jersey or elsewhere.
      George Washington did what any good military strategist would do – he abandoned Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Fort Lee and Fort Washington and retreated from other battles to preserve the American forces and to live to fight another day.
      He “bugged out” that’s what the military does and it makes pretty go sense sometimes.

      We The People won the Revolutionary War because we endured and were fighting for our homes and communities. The fact that the French helped us and England was going broke from the 8-year war didn’t hurt either

      The term “bug out” is a military term and has no trace of the affection of home or love of community.
      It is a word symptomatic of the impermanence of American community and life and of the pervasive militarism that has infected our Nation.
      It’s my opinion that our homes, neighbors and communities are worth fighting for – and that means whether our homes are in the projects of Detroit or in the suburbs of Atlanta or in rural America.

      Bugging out makes sense for military operations; but for civilian populations it is called displacement. Folks who “bug out” are known as refugees and victims.

      I’m not catching the moral revivalism thing and I don’t question your personal integrity or authenticity for one minute.

      My comment about your language had more to do with your message being lost in translation to many people who would otherwise benefit and listen to it.

      Whether we like it or not we live with certain social conventions and some people are not going to permit their children or themselves to be exposed to street vulgarity.
      I didn’t make the rules – that’s just the way it is.
      I questioned why you would want to limit your success because of language, but apparently self-expression is more important to you.
      I can understand and I respect that.

      The message of American agrarianism and the yeoman smallholder is a traditional one, and has been called different things at different times in our history – “self-reliance” “self supporting” “back to the land” and now “prepping” and “survivlism”.
      You & I both have the same message – but we came to the message by different routes and for different reasons.
      That’s why I so appreciate and am grateful the link from your site.
      You are doing me the favor because I’m an Internet small fry when compared to you.
      But I have lots of information that your listeners may be interested in and I have experience that you don’t have as of yet.

      You are mistaken that I refused to come on your show.
      You asked if I would be interested and never got back to me.
      But honestly Jack, you have had so many really great guests on your show in the past 2 years that I would be a disappointment.
      I would never presume to tell you how to run your show. Why would I?
      You are doing a perfectly wonderful job.

      Sorry if you think I have been lecturing you with email or comments.
      I honestly was just commenting and giving a difference of opinion.
      It must be something in my tone or just my bad and bossy “know-it-all” personality coming through.

      If you ever get to western Pennsylvania you are welcomed to visit.
      I would very much like to meet you in person and we could continue this dialogue in person where there can be no misinterpretation because of the limitations of digital communication.
      All the very best to you and continued success.

      • @Granny Miller,

        I responded more in depth privately. All I will say here is any links in my blog roll go to listeners. Further your comments about my knowledge of permaculture are not shared by The Permaculture Institute of Australia.

        In short if your message is as good as you say you will find an audience but you are not going to do it on my shoulders.

  40. Anyone else get the Mother Earth News Email Newsletter??

    Think this is a passive aggressive protest or possibly they aren’t even aware? Either way it made me smile, hope it does the same for you

    “DIY Skills & Projects: urban homestead projects; tool tips; more”

  41. I just ordered “The Urban Homestead”. I hope the authors are appreciative for our support and maybe do an interview on TSP.

    • @Countryboy75, they already have agreed to come on TSP and have expressed extreme gratitude for the support of the TSP community.

  42. Jack,
    Thought you’d like to know that the EFF. The Electronic Frontier Foundation ( the equivalent of the NAACP for the journalism sector) has taken up your cause in publicly shaming the Dervaes. . A facebook page has been setup so that we all can thumb our noses at them. I would encourage everyone to “like” this FB page and leave a comment. You might want to pass this along to the forum and listeners at large. You got to love it, that they will be getting their own come-uppings. This community will not let this stand!
    Big Jim