Episode-1393- Some of the Greatest Lies Ever Sold
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1984 Should Have Been Called 2014.
I have been on a theme as of late and I think I will leave you with one more show in this vein before I move on to something else. Do you realize that most people are living their modern lives based on a series of well sold lies?
Everything you hear is largely a lie today. The TV lies to you. Your parents though well meaning likely repeat those lies, largely because they believe them.
The radio lies to you while you drive to work, well, unless you listen to TSP or something similar. Most companies lie very professionally and well thought out to their employees. The school system is built almost entirely on lies.
This is why so many are miserable today. One can’t be human, fully human when they are living a life based on lies that lead to largely non human behavior.
Worse yet most of these lies have bits of truth in them. Understand the most deceptive lies are 90% or more true. The best way to sell lies is by using the truth. This is why you will have a hard time likely when you read the list of lies below, accepting that as they are sold to you, they are lies.
PLEASE don’t comment below about these lies until you listen to the episode, I promise you that you will end up defending them out of context.
Join Me Today As We Examine the Following Lies…
- Responsible adults get good jobs and work hard at them
- An education is priceless
- Money can’t buy happiness
- It will all be worth it when you retire
- While our political system has problems it is the best we can do
- It is okay for government to do something that would be a crime if you did it
- Those people over there are bad, it is okay for us to kill them
- Your value is based on the opinions of others
- Government is necessary
Resources for today’s show…
- Join the Members Brigade
- The Year 1393
- Join Our Forum
- 13Skills.com
- Join Our Forum
- Walking To Freedom
- TSP Gear
- PermaEthos.com
- AgriTrue
- Sawtooth Tactical – (sponsor of the day)
- Back Woods Home Magazine – (sponsor of the day)
- Video I Played about the Black Death
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I haven’t listened, but those who say money cannot buy happiness aren’t shopping in the right store…:)
Now, time to listen to it..
I live in a condo thats ran by a condo owners association.And its like a H.O.A a dictatership. They will fine you for breathing to loud.They put up signs over the 4th of july anyone caught shooting off fireworks wil be fined $500.They get you in with all kinds of goods cable tv swimming pools tennis courts etc.However over the last 2 years all of that has been taken away but rent is the still the same or higher.Lesson leared the next place i live will not have a C.O.A or a H.O.A.
“Responsible Adults live fulfilling lives and provide for the people who depend on them.”
Jack, there is no way I could have said it as succinct, or as good. That belongs on a motivational poster. What exactly fulfilling is, and how you provide (or the nature of it) is COMPLETELY subject to the individuals in question. That could be taking a 2nd or 3rd crappy job to have that little bit extra income to get something off the ground. Or it could be quitting your job, finding yourself, and doing what you were “meant” to do.
Luv this episode. And its spot on!
May the Blessings of Liberty be upon you.
Have not listened yet, and man you are on fire with these topics, I am falling behind, re-listening to the soil episode. “Nutritional Density for the Brain”
Must be the Shiner Bock..
“The education is priceless lie is used to trick the average person into indentured servitude for the best years of their life….25 to 45 is the optimum time in your life for achievement and building things so that by the time you’re 50 you’re not killing yourself. And that lie is used to put a chain around your neck before you even get to that point…”
@ Ben,
Ouch. Very true…but ouch. I’m 37, “over-educated,” and trying hard to get out of the matrix that my “training” has placed me into. But at least I did it without debt, don’t loathe what I do (but rather, loath the system and want to do something else), and have acquired knowledge that will help in the design and management of farms and homesteads. But I do wish I were 27. Guess I’ll have to extend the “best years of my life” beyond age 45 🙂
–Charles (we met in Iowa back in May – thanks again for the skills you shared at the workshop).
“bombing an apartment building is wrong” I agree. Which means that dropping the nukes on Japan was the biggest mass murder war crime atrocity in the history of America.
The point about Anwar al-Awlaki is TOO true. I had never considered that (not that I EVER supported it). They attempt to argue its “battle”, but it wasn’t in battle. It was a targeted assassination, for crimes, that one wouldn’t receive the death penalty over if convicted. Literally makes NO sense.
I do not disagree, though I think the same is worse today.
In 1945 was generally agreed upon by all nations as a legitimate way to prosecute a war. No doubt it was evil as fuck! Yet some excuse can be made for those involved because it was “war of the time”.
Today you have a nation saying the enemy is a terrorist for killing non combatants, then saying it is okay for them to do so.
Additionally most people don’t know there were two instances where we (Us and the English) killed a lot more civilians two very malicious bombing campaigns than the two “big bombs”.
1. Dresden Germany. 722 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city.
This killed about 25,000 civilians and did so at a time when the outcome of the war was was already known. Germany had no chance to survive at this point. Historically it has been blamed on the Brits but we did it too. While 25,000 isn’t a big number compared to the A-Bomb the key here is the city had no real strategic value to the Germans when we did it. Mostly it was new bombs we wanted to combat test before the war ended.
2. Fire bombing of Tokyo we get to own this one as one WE DID alone. This led to over 125,000 deaths mostly civilians. To put this in perspective the number of deaths caused by both atomic bombs in the actual bombing is about 129,000 deaths.
Basically we just dropped the shit out of fire bombs on cities where most houses were made of paper, wood and thatch. The reason was supposed to be to stop their industrial production but it had little actual effect on that.
All in all allied military activity killed the following numbers of civilians in WWII.
Japan 500,000
Korea 480,000
Germany 1.1 million
All and all though it was a terrible and the deadliest in history with more than 2.5% of the total global population killed by it.
True about Dresden, Jack. I knew an old Aussie who served as an RAF bomber pilot and participated in several of those raids- he had nightmares about being a civilian on the ground in one of those raids, right up till he died in the late 1990’s- so suffered for maybe 55 years from the memories of participating. Poor old bugger.
Jack wrote about the fire-bombing of Dresden during WWII … “This killed about 25,000 civilians and did so at a time when the outcome of the war was already known. ”
True but this statement lacks context. The Battle of the Bulge had been beaten back only a couple of weeks earlier. A couple of weeks is not long enough to say that “the outcome of the war was already known.”
The point is that no war is over until it is over. You don’t stop until you have full unconditional surrender. Then you lift up your boot from the neck of the enemy and let him go home. (I think I was paraphrasing General Grant there or someone like him.)
Nevertheless, Dresden was bombed with a vengeance and beyond any military reason for disabling a military target. It resulted in a firestorm. The air literally caught on fire. They did that just to see if they could do it.
In that sense… the insensible killing of civilians… Jack is right.
On the other hand, if Dooley had not bombed Tokyo civilians in what was, militarily speaking, a totally useless gesture we might not have won that war with Japan. That bombing of Tokyo early on in the war caused the Japanese to veer from their initial planning. Had they stuck to their original plans they might have won.
On the third hand, 🙂 the Battle of Britain in which civilians were targeted by the Nazis using the “cruise missiles” of the day only solidified British resolve to win the war.
BTW… there is a famous photo of St. Paul’s Cathedral still standing in the midst of devastation during the Battle of Britain. The Nazis targeted the Cathedral and it held. In the History Segment for year 1394, the Lollards will nail their demands to the door of St. Paul’s Cathedral. (See “Faith, Hope and Charity: A Twelve Step Program for Parliament” for the year 1394.)
Alex
what about the 300000 killed buy rape and sword at naking. the numbers if done buy the good way, would of been around a 1000000 troops 30 times for the japs.
Stalin starved 7000000 Ukrainians in a winter. death in a instant, buy nuke take your pick.
better yet the copy the japs cook book printed on the best way to cook your pows.
could of for gave them for eating us but they claimed the Aussies tasted better then us. that just pisses me off,.
war does not happen in a vactuim if you not going to fight to win then roll over and be dinner its your choice
james denell
The only thing you can take away from the 20th century, is governments kill people.
That’s about it.
I forgot to mention, but should have said, you’re giving the war hawk argument. But the fact remains, nuking civilians isn’t the proper response to war crimes.
“Because the Japanese (government/military) killed our soldiers and others in ways we don’t approve, we should kill civilians”. I do agree that “war” does take kind of an odd look at justice, but justifying killing innocents, for actions of others, is silly to say the least.
The problem with “modern warfare” is that the ease of killing is chosen over killing “the right individuals”, nearly every single time. This isn’t a recipe for moral actions, particular of one of a government. This is the recipe of convenience, which only leads to sloth, arrogance, and more death. This is something the more I think about it the more I come to terms with it.
Every single action taken by the military has furthered this mindset. We can kill now from an armchair tens of thousands of miles away. It’s convenient for us to put nobody in harms way to do what we want. It’s now moral to longer face an enemy, but just to exact executive will over those whom we choose, in whatever way we choose, regardless of the consequences.
I don’t think you can compare “whom is more moral” based on less body count. Morality also isn’t a “well at least we’re better morally than them”. That’s also not a recipe for morality, but a sliding scale into oblivion.
I began my journey to find the truth when I started listening to your show over 3 years ago. It has been a reality roller coaster ride, and I wouldn’t have it any other way! Thanks for all you do Jack!
I feel fairly confident in saying this is the best episode you’ve done. At least in my mind, at this moment in time, I’m thinking it is.
The part at the end is just too good. This thing, and that thing, and this and that. All wrong. Another question one might have to ask, is how many of those things that were lies DO NOT MATTER AT ALL? Does it matter that Independence day is the 4th of july? Nope, doesn’t change anything.
Does it matter whether or not if its true or not that “Responsible adults get good jobs and work hard at them”? YES, very much. Makes me kinda take a step back, again, and take in how much bullshit really is out there.
You’re right that many of the factoids don’t really matter they are just examples of things you believe with all your heart to be true that are not true. So they are useful for opening minds.
There is more, the Polish Calvary didn’t charge tanks, though I was taught but a very smart teacher that it happened, I even said it did here once.
A frog in water where you slowly turn up the heat one sit there and cook without knowing it. This one is stupid all amphibians and reptiles thermo-regulate.
I could literally fill an entire hour some day just on things people believe that are easily verified as not being the truth.
Couldn’t agree more.
I think what’s worse by your “factoids” is the number of “it actually matters” points that aren’t either bended truths or flat out lies.
History is actually kind of scary stuff to get into because it’s not nearly as “set in stone” as people want to believe. It is VERY convenient to think of history as this thing which gets jotted down and its fixed. It happened, here it is, these are the facts. The problem is history isn’t a “science” (for lack of a better term) where you can just write down the measurements and then refer to them in the future.
To further illustrate your point, lets go back to media that is dominated from a single source and disseminated to the masses. How much is bullshit just to get people in a tizzy and a frenzy?
What I actually really enjoyed about this show is (at least to me) how far away from “conspiracy theory” these issues were. Why is that good? They actually give (in my opinion) more credence to “conspiracy theories” when they make at minimum the first claims that whatever the “official” story was, was indeed false.
Ditto New Mike!
I had heard and thought every one of those things was true…at least the lies can now stop with me. My young children won’t grow up with the same lies being passed on by me. I guess the reality is that every “fact” given by a government/gov institution should be questioned and checked.
I listened I laughed I cried I thought Then I suck my finger down my throat just so I could vomit up more bits of that dam blue pill. Hum wonder if I should check for a magical unicorn.
So many lies. When the kids were little I heard all the time from other women that if I didn’t have a J-O-B I must not care about myself. If I didn’t wear make up I must not care about myself. If I don’t wear “nice” clothes I must not care about myself. If I didn’t have my hair done yada yada yada on and on.
Part of why I was able to stay home like I did for as long as I did was because I didn’t spend money on those things. Ya know I never once condemned women that did those things. I figure it’s a choice. My choice was to have kids and to be the one who raised them. Didn’t mean I didn’t make money when it was needed. I did but I did it on my terms.
When I did finally go out and get a J-O-B I was board out of my mind. While I had to dress and play the part. Then told to stop working so hard or I would work every one out of a job. GRRRR. I was going crazy so I had to start my own business.
Now the day to day grind building a homestead is right up my alley. I’m happy as long as I don’t listen to the poo pooers. Some times they can get to me. I start to question myself.
Shows like this are very empowering. Thank you for that.
Thank you Roundabouts for sharing and thank you, thank you, thank you Jack for this show. This was exactly what I needed to hear today.
I have been told the exact same thing at work: You’re working to hard, you should relax, there’s no deadline, what’s the hurry? It’s driving me bonkers. You inspired me to go back to my old job, at a local yarn shop, and ask if I could by any chance have my job back. And she said yes! I have been thinking that I may want to go into the yarn business for myself in the future, as I truly love the fiber arts and have been doing it as a hobby for a long time. I think this is the first step in that direction.
I was feeling truly awful that I might not want a career in the field I spent 4 years training in college for, maybe none at all once kids come along. I come from a large family of many modern, working women. It’s not that they look down upon those few in the family that chose to stay home, it’s just that I felt like I would be letting them down if I wanted that too.
Thank you again, and thanks to my boyfriend, who sent me the link to this show.
I’m glad you took the time to listen AvenueQ!
This is one of the best episodes I’ve heard in a while, and I had to share.
An education IS priceless. The thing is, you don’t have to pay a cabal of leftist fools (a university) to get one. That is more true today than anytime in history. Just be curious about things and use the resources you have at hand: the library and the internet. As I see it, the only reason to go to a university today is if you are going into work that requires that you get your ticket punched: law, medicine, etc.
Amen, Jack. I was born into a cult billing itself as ‘the truth’ though exes refer to it as ‘the Borg’. Coming out of that background, I see most of conventional society as a cult. I think you hit it in all the right places.
Great Show Jack!…just wanted to throw 4 more Sloganisms in there my Grandmother you say all the time that I found rather earlier in adulthood that just aren’t true either…You were born poor and you will die poor…Hard work never killed anyone…You can’t fight City Hall…It’s always been that way and it’s the way it will always be and there is nothing you can do about it…it’s funny how smart people buy into this and come to think of it a fact….Thanks for all you do!
It is important to recognize that in the history segment, that the aristocracy did not die… the plague dodged the elites because they had secret weapons. They were taking crudely made silver tinctures… made by their alchemists.
This is why they became known as blue bloods and wore massive amounts of make-up to cover their f-ed up faces.
I have heard that too but have heard it in so many ways…The Colloidal Silver companies say it was because they drank from silver goblets and eat off silver plates with silverware and that the silver turned their skin a tinge of blue and protected them from the Plague…but I have never really found evidence that proves it …but I do make my own ionized silver, which some mistakenly call Colloidal Silver for the health benefits…but I’m not sure it would stop me from getting the Plague…nor would I ever bet my life on it LOL!
Regarding colloidal silver as prophylactic against Plague … if that worked, King Edward the 3rd would not have died of the clap. This treatment sounds suspiciously like injecting mercury into the … well… it sounds like one of those “cures” from the Middle Ages that didn’t work. If the aristocracy was so immune from Plague, John of Gaunt would not have become the Duke of Lancaster. (His father-in-law died of Plague and so did John Gaunt’s wife.)
The only thing I see as an advantage for the aristocracy in the Middle Ages is that they could afford large, airy castles and kept to themselves. Those who had to go and muck out the stables were the ones in most danger.
The Jews also seemed to be protected somewhat, but that was due to the isolation. Jews were not allowed to live where “decent folk” might live, and that was generally outside of town… like on an island… if possible. It was because of that isolation and the fact that Jews and gentiles did not interact much that the possibility of Plague amongst Jews was less… but not zero.
Alex
I really love the history lesson at the end!
Another Lie, I grew up believing until I visited the Smithsonian, Betsy Ross and the American Flag…that lie was made up by her grandson and it was so imbedded into history that they were still teaching us that in the 1970’s when I was a kid..in truth Mary Pickersgill was commissioned to make the Flag and it’s still on display in the Smithsonian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_Coolidge
to your challenge a time when the government got smaller 2os coolidge cut tax rates and gov spending buy 50 percent, which lead to the greatest economic grow in our history and the growth of the middle class when hover took over he increased spending buy 250 percent, (that number is off top of head, so it might not be right} which with tearifts and tax increases cause the depression. just wrote this because of the challenge, so please don’t hang me for it
heads up never claimed to be a oath keeper. sorry if it offended you that a brought it up. never served the thing that keeps me from walking know kept out of the marines as a kid. the guy next store a friend and one who i shoot with are. i git my opinion of the oath keepers from them.
jim denell
Beat me to it. Just finished listening to this episode. Still pretty bad that we can only name the ONE guy.
Thank you, Jack!!!!
Amazing episode. You have been a big part of my realization of the lies that have shaped my life. I hope that in this time when so many are blinded by the tribalism propagated in our media, this episode will be the beginning of a great cascade of people learning to think critically.
man! I have really enjoyed and appreciated the latest podcasts. Well I enjoy them all but the last hand full have really charged me up. Thanks for great info, Jack.
A few things: Colloidal silver does have some good uses (been using for years) but its obviously not a (pun alert!) silver bullet. I dont understand why people have to blow something good up and make it sound like the do all-be all, which just tends to put people off from trying it.
More fun facts from the Bible: Who cut Samson’s hair? Delila right? nope. Delila, that devious party girl, called for her barber and he cut Samson’s curly locks!
Animals entered Noah’s ark two by two. Wrongo! only the creatures considered unclean entered two by two. The clean creatures entered 7 by 7. Hey, a year on the water is a long time… a mans gotta eat! 😉
I make Ionized Silver every month for personal use and I hope what you are calling Colloidal Silver isn’t, what I make by putting silver rods into distilled water and sending an electrical charge though it…because that’s not Colloidal Silver…big difference and it’s just a marketing scheme…that’s why Colloidal silver costs $20 an ounce
But I would never put anyone down for using it or making it, but, Lord I hope they don’t think it would keep them from getting the plague LOL, but i do think it helps me from getting sick or having to go to the Dr….but that just my personal opinion
@Shannon. yup. I make my own as well, and the same way. I probably use the name colloidal silver as that’s what I heard it called when I was first exposed to the benefits. Having some really bad teeth, I rely on it heavily to control pain and infection. Sometimes the funds are not there for dental work. alas. 😮
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtWLGscIKuM
Chilling, Propaganda at its best.
Winston Churchill once said “There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true.”
I made a list of these years ago, first one, lemmings commit suicide by jumping off cliffs. A lie perpetrated by Disney.
I heed what Orwell wrote. The last line in 1984 went, “He loved big brother”.
Not only did they break Winston, they reprogrammed him and made him a willing accomplice of the State. There isnt a single iota that could be construed as uplifting in that book. Statist use it as guide.
Animal Farm probably describes politics more succinctly than anything else out there, metaphorically speaking.
But, “To Kill an Elephant”, really just a short essay, it just makes you wish you hadn’t read it. I wish I hadn’t.
An audio of “Shooting an Elephant is available on YouTube at: http://youtu.be/yPrMtNiE9Ho
It runs 17 minutes.
A PDF of the essay is available at:
http://tinyurl.com/ywjv2y
Worth a listen/read.
a simpler Orwell for the short attention span crowd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o66FUc61MvU
😉
if anyone is looking for the essay search for ‘Shooting An Elephant George Orwell’. you might want to read the synopsis first.
I actually first experienced the book via an audio book on my way to Afghanistan. I came with absolutely no knowledge of the content of the book, and no idea of its ending. I completed the entire book on the flight from Japan to Kuwait (quite the long flight).
(Spoiler alert, if you haven’t read the book, do not read further).
The book is actually a lot darker as well if you don’t have the spoilers. At least for me it was. As I read the last long portion of the book, I kept saying “he’s going to get out of this. I’m just waiting for this guy to slip by, and break the state, and save everyone”. It kept getting darker, and I was like “damn the escape out is going to be even crazier.” Then eventually I was like “Wow, he’s one tough son of a bitch to be able to break out of this one…”
But while it was clear he was extremely tough, alas, that he did not, and I felt for the first time in my life, the true meaning of the absolute elimination of any hope. It was probably one of the darkest moments of my life. In fact, I felt quite ill for about 3 days after that.
Holy crap… I wish I hadn’t just read that essay after seeing you mention it…
OMG! 1984 is without a doubt is the darkest, most depressing piece of literature Ive ever read. “I sold you and you sold me, under the spreading Chestnut tree.” (<– I think that's right. Its been a long time since my reading and I certainly don't plan on a repeat!) I was in a black funk for days after finishing it.
By comparison, I loved Animal Farm. It is such a wickedly spot on satirical tail (lol, tale) of the corrupting influence of power and government. Im assuming this is the birthplace of the term "Sheeple."
I get your point about happiness. Money doesn’t exactly “buy” happiness, it removes obstacles.
In terms of emotional or spiritual well being I find a lot to ponder in this quote;
“I sometimes wonder whether all pleasures are not substitutes for joy. ”
– C.S. Lewis
If Mexico was launching missels from a top apartment buildings, knowing that that should be a safe place and your family in Texas is being killed from those missels would you blow up that apartment building or just say go a head it’s ok because there might be a bystander in said apartment building
Drew, this is not quite analogous.
Imagine McAllen, TX has drug gangs firing rockets into Corpus Christi, TX.
McAllen has already been walled in and all travel and commerce in and out is controlled including medical supplies.
The rockets, by the way, don’t have explosive warheads, just kinetic energy (like a canon ball).
Do you send the US military to bombard McAllen with air strikes? Or do you send in SWAT (a police organization) to neutralize the violent actors?
If we want to make it even more accurate, imagine all the Hispanic citizens from south Texas have been relocated involuntarily to McAllen. People who have been in Texas since before Texas was a republic or a state. And a few years ago, there was a large natural gas reserve found under McAllen.
One thing I want to point out all those people living in Mexico weren’t in Texas before the Republic of Texas, when the Republic of Texas was formed by my forefathers we made peace with the native Indians here, the Mexican Government at the time was made up of Spanish Colonist not native Mexican people and the reason the Mexican Government let Stephen F. Austin settle in Texas with 300 families was because no one in Mexico had any interest in settling there and after Texas won it’s independence no one was kicked out and made to move back to Mexico, in fact just as many native people fought the Mexican army as white settlers…More lies that are sold to create racial divide
Thank you Shannon, but I may not have been clear. I’m talking about native Texans, that’s why I used the word “Hispanic” rather than Mexican. Many of the people we think of as “Mexican” are actually Spanish-speaking Native Americans.
But thank you for the history lesson. I know I’m no Texas historian, just trying to make a point.
No Problem my friend…I’am a son of the Republic of Texas and I’m 1/4 blood Cherokee,I know all the real history like the back of my hand…both of my families settled this state and trust me from everything I had to research to become a member …..the Irish and The Cherokee…endured so much it’s unbelievable…I can feel for you brother if you had ancestors that were slaves, but, my people weren’t treated any different,and coming to Texas they had a chance and very so few made it happen…against a Tyrannical Spanish white man who called himself a Mexican …we won at the cost of damn near all our lives…the funny thing is Sam Houston used a beautiful woman to walk into his camp and seduce him in broad daylight….it’s called the Battle of San Jacinto …we caught them with there pants down and won…. They still her sing the song here…She’s the Yellow Rose of Texas
@Shannon: “Sam Houston used a beautiful woman to walk into his camp and seduce him in broad daylight”
According to history, she was left behind to run a settlement and was captured by Santa Anna.
She helped another person escape and told that person to find Houston and let him know where Santa Anna was headed. Then she did her best to flirt with Santa Anna and slow him down so Houston could catch up – in which she succeeded.
Sam Houston had no part in her being in that camp; he simply took advantage of it.
http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/archives/yellowrose/yelrose.html
Or you could go there and physically stop it man to man. You reply with appropriate force, on those who are creating the force. Inconveniently that would require people might die for that cause, which inconveniently (for the state) that would require people willing to do it.
The opposite exists today. You have a populace, who literally could care less, has no knowledge of us off bombing EurAsia (or is it East Asia?) and whom or what we’re killing is all up in the air.
When was the last time any of these guys injured somebody in the US? Oh that’s right 13 years ago. How many people were killed? Ahh, that’s right 2000. How many civilians have we killed since then? Yikes.
Plus 1 for the 1984 reference.
I assume you all are making a comparison to the Israel/Gaza battle.
If someone were launching missiles from the roof of your apartment building, you’d know it. Nevertheless, Israel did warn civilians that they were going to hit civilians areas and gave them time to evacuate. I saw a Korean news report in English that reported on this. (Arirang News) The Koreans are not on anyone’s side so they can report as they like. The reporter said that Israel warned the civilians and that they evacuated.
In the past Israeli defense forces have even called up residents by phone in order to warn them.
The restrictions placed on the soldiers are more limiting that those followed by US troops. They have a military code that outlines when violence is justified that is followed closely and has been run through the Israeli Supreme Court which is notoriously liberal. (Liberal in the sense of lotus eating, bead-wearing boobs.) The code has been pre-approved and as long as the code is followed (and it will be) this war will be as ethical as a war could be.
The oldest war code that is still followed is set out in the Bible. In summary: No newlyweds are to be soldiers. Do not take cowards into battle. Declare yourself and allow the enemy to surrender and treat them well if they do. No wanton destruction. No raping. If you see a woman you want, you must give her a month to decide it she wants YOU first. Don’t kill the fruit trees. And so forth.
Alex
Alex, I believe I understand your take on the situation as far as morality when applied to war is concerned.
But the point I was trying to make is that this is not a war.
As far as I know, most aspects of the life in Gaza are under the control of Israel. Though they may not recognize Gaza, Gaza is a controlled territory of Israel.
This is not a situation where you have two nations with military forces meeting on a battlefield. This is a small percentage of a civilian population fighting against the controlling government entity.
My point was simply that this should not be fought as a military action, but that this is a POLICING function.
The same way, if you are fighting a gang of violent drug members in a housing project, you don’t wall off the project and level buildings. You would go in among the population and root out the bad players.
I understand that many of us have a strong emotional solidarity with Israel, but I don’t believe that current action is the appropriate response IF your goal really is to destroy Hamas while preserving human life and property.
Thanks for engaging me in this discussion. I’m sure you are a busy man.
-Sheikh
Sheikh… your premise is faulty so your conclusions are faulty.
Gaza is no longer under control of the Israelis. Gaza has been a self-governed region under the Palestinian Authority since 1994. If you are as old as I am you will recall that Israel did maintain a police force within Gaza prior to that time as well as synagogues and other support but once self-governance was negotiated the Gazans called for the expulsion of the Jews and the Jews were removed. It was quite a scene. It is because of that terrible scene that Israel has not seriously considered removing the Jews from the so-called West Bank. It’s not going to happen.
Israel and Egypt control imports to Gaza so as to reduce the number of missiles being lobbed into Israel but obviously that effort has failed.
The so-called government entity in Gaza is Hamas, a terrorist organization. Once voted into office Hamas proceeded to murder all their political opponents in the Palestinian Authority… thus making democracy much easier to manage in Gaza and less complicated than having the IRS auditing their political enemies and destroying their hard drives.
I’m glad to discuss the options for Israel from here but one needs to know the history first.
BTW, my daughter-in-law landed in Houston last night. She caught an El Al flight back from Israel. She is safe but those last couple of days when President Obama shut down the flights to/from Israel really took a toll on her.
President Obama has restored the flights. He has made things clear to Israel. Israel has a decision to make on a ceasefire and given the time now (4:40 PM Central), they must have already made it. Let’s take a look… it looks like no ceasefire. It was unanimous. Obama cannot treat Israel like a whipped cur. I doubt Israel will discuss the alternatives until the Sabbath is over. The fighting will go on regardless. This is due to a religious decision made around 150 BCE. There is no Sabbath Truce for Jews. A warrior may carry his sword on duty and off. I don’t know if that means he may carry a gun as well, but clearly if there is danger, the Sabbath laws are set aside to save life… including one’s own.
I am preparing for the Sabbath myself. I’ll try to check back before sunset but if anyone responds to what I’ve written after that, I won’t be able to respond until Saturday night (after 9:12 central time).
Be well,
Alex
@Alex, “Gaza is no longer under control of the Israelis.”
While this is true politically, it is not true physically.
Israel controls the imports, the water, and the electricity in Gaza.
Israel has cut off access to the Jordan river. They have built dams diverting the Wadi Gaza (a significant stream) through Israel and around Gaza. Mekorot, the Israeli national water company, controls all water infrastructure in Gaza, and is limited in how much water it can sell to those living in Gaza via approval of Israeli authorities. Drilling wells in Gaza is restricted by Israel and Mekorot. Palestinians are not permitted to move water from the West Bank to Gaza, yet the area is covered in Israeli deep wells so the Israelis could have that water. (Many of those wells have now dried up due to the severe over-pumping of the aquifer.)
The WHO has studied the extreme lack of water in Gaza, coupled with the existing sewage problem (can’t flush the waste out as there’s no water to do it with) and has determined that Gaza will be unlivable by the year 2020 if things continue as they are today.
If Canada controlled our water supply, controlled our electricity and could turn it off at will, controlled the supply imports into the country, and controlled the airspace over the U.S. – would we say that we were not under control of Canada?
@Carrie B … Regarding Israeli control over imports to Gaza… I pointed out that Israel was monitoring imports looking for bomb parts. That effort was a failure, obviously. I’m not sure what cutting off electricity and water to Gaza would do. If bombing the living snot out of them does not cause Hamas to capitulate then cutting off electricity and water wouldn’t do it either so I’m not clear what you are suggesting.
Sheikh was making a good point that if Israel was policing the Gaza then it was their responsibility to stop this well before it got out of hand. Unfortunately he hadn’t realized that Israel had released control of Gaza years before.
Regarding cutting off access to the Jordon River… Gaza is nowhere near the Jordon River. My daughter-in-law was near the Jordon River last week. She didn’t see any bombing there.
Regarding Wadi Gaza… a wadi is a dry stream bed that fills in during a rainstorm. As I look at a map it is in a desert area so as Jack said recently regarding water tanks… in a desert its a flood when it rains. Wadi Gaza goes through Israel. They have a right to control the water when it comes through Israel. (If I called it Wadi Austin-Texas that would not automatically give me the rights to the water there. It’s just a name.)
Water rights have been an issue since biblical times. Abraham made a deal with the King along the sea (meaning Gaza) for the water rights. Personally I would NOT press those rights in this case but I’m willing to bet that it is in the back of the minds of religious Israelis but not the majority of Israelis. They just see the water as coming across their land and they want to control it.
You implied… Carrie… that the Israelis should control it and then implied they should not control it. Which is it? It is on Israeli land for the most part.
Regarding piping water from the so-called West Bank to Gaza… that would be quite a project over Israeli land. It would be like Canada sending water to Mexico in a pipeline across the United States. The USA would have to agree to that and the negotiations would be considerable… and expensive. And of course, between Canada and Mexico are many water wells but those who dig the wells feel they own and should control that water on their own property and within their own country regardless of what Canada or Mexico might think..
Regarding the actual number of fighters in Gaza being small… that is true of the United States as well…. so what? If they are small and the Gazans don’t agree with them, then the Gazan police can arrest these hooligans and put them in jail. But they are not doing that. Are they?
Hamas was voted in by the majority of the Gazans. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the people freely voted for them. This is what happens when you vote for terrorists… and continue to support them.
Regarding water for flushing toilets…. Gaza is next to the ocean. They can run a pipe out to the ocean and flush their toilets using sea water.
Also, Gaza is a major exporter of tomatoes and other agricultural products. If they didn’t have enough water… how are they growing anything over there? Maybe this year’s crops are going to be a little thin. It is difficult to harvest tomatoes after a tank has rolled over them, but they have enough water.
Regarding Canada controlling our airspace, etc… obviously Israel doesn’t have enough control since the Gazans have all these missiles. Where did they come from? Did that Congresswoman on that boat sneak them in with her purse?
So… defacto, Israel does not have control over Gaza. Had they followed your advice, Carrie, and cut off the water and electricity long before this I suspect they would have attacked sooner and with more justification. But Israel didn’t take your suggestion. Instead they simply checked the imports and worked out a deal for electricity and water. It didn’t matter.
Of course… Gaza could always build a desalinization plant for water or simply work out a deal with Egypt for water and electricity. Gaza shares a border with Egypt. (I believe Egypt hates the so-called Palestinians and for good reasons. I’m sure Jordon feels sorry it invited the Palestinians in and for the same reasons the Egyptians kicked them out.)
I buy water and electricity from the People’s Republic of Austin, Texas and I don’t even live in Austin. I resent Austin somewhat so I understand what you are talking about, Carrie. Nevertheless, I do NOT feel any inclination to hurt Austin citizens.
Nope. Not going to do it. Wouldn’t be prudent. 🙂
Alex
OK, I see what you are saying.
But I think you don’t need a completely valid threat to exercise control. If we define the validity of the threat as the ability and the will to destroy, then in my opinion, you only need the perception of the ability and will.
Either way, I do believe that Israel has both the ability and the will. And I believe that they are completely fine with a slow methodical execution that does not prompt a major backlash from the international community.
Well Alex, I guess you and I have different definitions of “control.”
-Sheikh
“He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing.”
I disagree! He who can create a thing controls a thing. Destruction can only be used for control if the threat is valid.
If the intent of Israel was to destroy Gaza it would have become a glass factory a LONG TIME AGO.
I think Israel’s current military campaign is bullshit and it is murderous.
That said, guess who sends the most money in “foreign aid” to Gaza of all nations on the planet, that would be Israel!
You want the truth about Israel and Gaza, there are NO GOOD GUYS in the battle.
Israel is wrong and those running Gaza are wrong, and the people on both sides are victims of murdering fucks that want to control the lives of others.
“Destruction can only be used for control if the threat is valid.”
No, sir. Whether the threat is valid or not, even the PERCEPTION of the ability and will to destroy grants control.
If you point an empty gun at my head, and I don’t know it’s not loaded, you can control me pretty well.
And the destruction of one group by another is much more palatable for the world community if it is done slowly with apparent justification at each step.
I have a great example for you, the destruction of the right to bear arms.
Attempts are regularly made, always with justification, to curb the right. Well, you can have that right on paper all you want, but if regulations, registrations, and taxes make it prohibitive, then your right has been effectively controlled.
But hey, this is an exciting discussion.
-Sheikh
You just proved my point, in your example the threat is valid.
Regarding whether Israel is just as guilty as Gazans, I disagree. However, there is no question in my mind that more people will die due to Israel’s war code. As Sheikh pointed out, (and Robert Heinlein) it is no mercy to hang a man slowly, yet Israel’s policy has the effect (if not the intention) of hanging the Gazans slowly. This is due to Israel’s inordinate care about international opinion (and their own opinion). Frankly, the Israeli Supreme Court makes the US Supreme Court look like a meeting of the John Birch Society. The Israeli Supreme Court has created the outlines of the military code.
What you are seeing from Israel is a war fought by Liberals. Netanyahu is not a liberal but when he acted in the past with the full force of his conservatism, he was ousted from parliament. Thus he must walk a fine line, appeasing the Liberals.
BTW, here in Austin, Texas a Jewish memorial was held for the three young Jewish boys who were murdered, but the Jews running the rally insisted that they also memorialize an Arab boy for balance. Odd. This Jewish memorial was held at the Dell Jewish Community Center and by the reports that came to me (I was not there) it turned into a pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel rally.
Weird. I know that some on the stage were pro-Israel, but the most vocal (and accepted) opinion was criticizing Israel. This was before the attack on Gaza. I’m not sure what they think now but I doubt they have changed their mind.
So… don’t assume that all Jews agree. We don’t. I believe the Israeli policy toward terrorists and the Palestinians in particular is foolish and encourages the Palestinians to attack. It is somewhat the equivalent of a mother walking through the grocery store and chiding here toddler not to pull the cans off of the shelves…
“You’d better stop or you are going to get into trouble.”
Cans hit the floor.
“Now you are really in trouble, you’d better stop.”
More cans and boxes of cereal flying all over.
“Please stop or you are going to get a spanking.”
Milk jugs break as they hit the floor and yogurt flies everywhere.
Finally Mom has had enough and swats the crap out of her kid. But he wouldn’t have caused as much damage and probably wouldn’t have received half as much of a spanking if she had just punished him early on. Thus her holding back caused her child to receive more hurt than if she had been more punishing early on.
Israel’s policy is to say, “boys will be boys” until they’ve had enough and then, apparently, they are all judged to be men and punish them like men. Then the Israelis act surprised at the criticism they receive.
Frankly, I believe that even if Israel struck earlier, they would still get criticism. They need to fight this war to an unconditional surrender. The Palestinians have said clearly that they don’t want this war to end until every Jew is dead. I doubt the Palestinians will get that concession from the Jews so the fighting will continue until one or the other is dead.
Alex
I think what people mean to say is that money can’t buy joy. I think of joy as a passion and a love for life and is determined by your attitude. To me happiness is circumstance dependent. Sure nobody frowns when on a jet ski but as soon as they get off, it is back to their miserable life. A joyous person is “happy” whether he is on a jet ski or not. Seeking happiness to me is fleeting but finding joy is difficult but ever so rewarding. I have recently learned the difference and I am “happier” for it, and it cost me nothing. Oh and Jack you and others like you had a hand in finding that joy. Not blowing smoke just the truth.
Beer is proof positive that you can’t buy happiness. You can only rent it. 🙂
I know 2 teachers that work for Chicago Public schools that make north of $100k. My wife (when she was a teacher) had a gym teacher at her school that made $150k.
They get paid incredibly well considering they have the summer off and get paid extra for summer school duty.
Great show. Eventually some could be led to believe 2 + 2 IS 5.
This will bend your brain, 2+2 can equal 5 it depends.
Actually your point is valid but in the quantum world 2+2 could be a billion or a negative billion.
Funny thing though is one would prove the above using math where 2+2 would most certainly be 4. LOL
I’d like to make one more comment with two points about the man/woman roles. I am the female bread winner who has always had greater earning power than my husband who is now the stay-at-home. Everything seemed pretty wonderful until recently. These episodes really hit home, and made us think. Both of us have been feeling a little melancholy, but we couldn’t put our fingers on it. I think this hit the nail on the head. It is uncomfortable to think about, but I believe there is some truth for us personally here.
Second point: Community is also a HUGE part of healthy family. My aunt is in a nursing PhD program and her area of expertise is woman’s health, specifically postpartum depression. Her research topic? Mennonite (horse and buggy persuasion) women do NOT get Postpartum depression! Why? the main reason is that they are part of a larger, very strong community. Mennonite women are proud to be mothers and they are not left alone for hours/days at time with children. They have support system. I thought this was an interesting point to add.
I had to laugh and shake my head today when you brought up HOA’s. A few months ago I was sitting around at a friend’s place in a suburb of Chicago. Apparently most of the new homes in the area are all in HOA’s – you almost can’t escape it. He and his neighbor both started complaining about government intrusion, taxes and so forth. I listened to them and then asked why then had they moved into an area that imposed more government regulations and taxes on them. They had no idea what I was referring to so I told them their HOA was another level of government they had brought into their lives willingly. Not only did they disagree with my statement they went on about the merits of the HOA and how much it was needed (this was after they had complained about not being able to wash their cars in the driveway or not turn off their porch light at night).
Going back to personal liberty, people have been conditioned to want/need others to take care of them and direct their lives. Without a HOA, these people thought that their community would go up in flames – funny, mine seems to be doing just fine without one and we’re all much happier. Oh and I happen to know most of my neighbors because when we are out washing our cars or doing something a HOA prohibits, we are also having a beer and offer one to a neighbor as they pass by.
Anytime you’re being sold something that is ‘priceless’.. you’re being overcharged.
I think that we may believe that if we had all the money in the world then we would be happy; however many things in life you learn through adversity whatever it may be. If you won a million dollars you might actually give up the whole idea of survivalism, gardening and the like or at least many people might. People who have too much money may become spoiled or develop an attitude. How many millionairs are on TSP ? Looking up on growing up I have often found that blue collar types of people or kids from the other side of the track are more down to earth. We moved away to a richer town when I was in 8th grade so that their where even less kids on that other side of town and I feel I was less happy with the new town.
That person on the jet ski is getting joy in part because he is outside on god’s ocean ! Man has taken over the beaches so that you have to pay to park there or live there but the air is free and water is free or should be. Just think of it, a jet ski is better than a motorcycle, but I will also argue that paddling your own surfboard is superior to a jet ski and a surfboard costs a whole lot less !
Sure a certain amount of money can help you, but the greatest treasures in life may be wisdom and enlightenment because everything else is fading away as you get older but as long as you have your mind and your attitude you have the greatest treasure if you can learn wisdom and how to apply it.
I think however that sex is the greatest tempation and if you have money
and you are a guy then you automatically become a little sexier or may feel that way because of what may appeal to many women .. but the promise of sex sometimes ends up being a let down in the long run as well ..
Here we need to think also long term versus short term I think that is what makes you happy in the short term may not in the long term so much t
Haven’t listened to the episode, but reading the overview it seems someone has been listening to freedomainradio.
On governmental ‘reduction’..
There are several parts to this..
The ‘size of government’ (number of employees)
The quantity of regulations
The invasiveness of government ‘officials’
All of these have been heading up on an exponential curve.. which I suppose pretty much matches the rise of the ‘national debt’.