Episode-1157- Rob Gray on the Future of Silver Currencies
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Today I am joined by my good friend Mr. Rob Gray of AOCS and Mulligan Mint. Today our discussion revolves around the future of TSP Silver Medallions and we have some very exciting news about that. Additionally we really focus more on expanding silver’s role in America and around the world as a true currency of choice.
The entire mission of AOCS for as long as I have known Rob has been to expand the use and role of complimentary currencies and return individual sovereignty for anyone from towns to Indian nations. Today for instance we are announcing that the Crow Nation has engaged with Mulligan Mint to produce a new silver medallion with plans to set up a bank for their people.
Rob and I have worked long and hard and have some pretty interesting plants to take the silver market to a new level. We will soon begin work on a new coin series called “The Six Virtues of Liberty” each of the 6 medallions will feature a virtue that is necessary for a citizen to preserve the liberty of the republic. While we did not reveal the 6 virtues on air today, I will do that here in today’s show notes. They are…
- Honor – The willingness to do what is right even when it isn’t easy
- Courage – The ability to face fear and stand true in spite of it
- Strength – The power to resist and fight the good fight
- Knowledge – The wisdom to know the truth and think independently
- Vigilance – The commitment to always stand guard over the republic
- Sovereignty – The understanding that you are a sovereign being
Think about this friends, how much stronger would our nation be if these were the virtues that we were instilling in ourselves, our children and our fellow citizens? Join Rob and I today as we discuss how we as partners are going to bring this message, the message of honest money and the message of community value to America.
Resources for today’s show…
- Members Support Brigade
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- TSP Gear
- JM Bullion – (sponsor of the day)
- Fortress Defense Consultants – (sponsor of the day)
- The Limited Edition Sentinel Proof with Custom Case
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Last night while reading Ralph Moody’s Little Britches “Father and I were Ranchers” I got to a very good quote.“There are only two kinds of men in this world: Honest men and dishonest men. …Any man who says the world owes him a living is dishonest. The same God that made you and me made this earth. And He planned it so that it would yield every single thing that the people on it need. But He was careful to plan it so that it would only yield up its wealth in exchange for the labor of man. Any man who tries to share in that wealth without contributing the work of his brain or his hands is dishonest.”
? Ralph Moody
I really like the series of books for the kids, great for character building plus plenty of prepping.
OH MY GOD FACTIONAL IS COMING!
Can’t wait to see them. I haven’t heard the episode yet but I hope they are all availible in bullion not proof so i can afford to get a few of each.
Interesting choice of virtues. I’m wondering if any of these other traditional ones were considered for the list, and if so why they were not included:
Kindness – Regard for those who are within an individuals ability to help.
Generosity – Giving to those in need.
Forgiveness – Willingness to overlook transgressions made against you.
Compassion – Empathy and understanding for the suffering of others.
Fair-mindedness – concern that all get their due (including oneself) in cooperative arrangements of mutual benefit.
Tolerance – willingness to allow others to lead a life based on a certain set of beliefs differing from ones own.
Honesty – telling someone what you believe to be true in the context of a direct inquiry.
Temperance – self-control regarding pleasure
Good temper – self-control regarding anger
Ambition – self-control regarding one’s goals
Curiosity – self-control regarding knowledge
Frugality (also Thrift) – self-control regarding the material lifestyle
Industry – self-control regarding play, recreation and entertainment
Contentment – self-control regarding one’s possessions and the possessions of others; acknowledgement and satisfaction of reaching capacity.
No because these are not virtues for life such as piety etc. they are for the preservation of liberty in the republic. To me these 6 are the exact things lacking from our current society.
You can be kind and think socialism is just hunky dory can’t you? I mean I consider myself kind but I would rather deal with a man who is honorable before he is kind. Fair-mindedness that isn’t a virtue because it is way to subject to interpretation. A lot of people use that term when they want to redistribute property.
That list is a fine list for many things that make up a a good person. That is all good and well but we are now in a fight for liberty. It is time to stand and fight and reclaim that which we have lost.
Let me put it another way for YOU to have the freedom to develop the things on YOUR list, YOUR way, based on what YOU think is right for YOU, liberty must exist first. Otherwise someone else decides what is fair, what is kind, what is frugal, etc. for YOU.
Consider there is nothing subjective about honor, a man with honor keeps his word, lives by the ethics he says he does. You can disagree with what he believes but honor is honor, it is absolute and simple to identify.
Courage is the same, I may stand in the face of one danger and you another but there is nothing subjective about courage you either have it or you don’t. A coward can be fair and kind and even ambitious but he can’t be courageous.
Strength is simple, can you hold your ground. Are you fighting from a strong point or a weak one. Again we don’t have to agree on which battle we fight just that we must be strong in the parts of the fight we each take on. In fact we should choose our fights based on said individualized strength.
Knowledge – you either have it or your don’t. Your own list is predicated on knowledge, you must have knowledge or the act you think is kind might be cruel and many acts that appear cruel are kind.
Let me explain that with a short story. A bird tried to build a nest in a brush pile. Every day a ranch hand tore down the nest. The bird thought the man way cruel and gave up and built a nest in a near by tree. The bird hated the man and chirped madly at him when he made his rounds. In a few weeks the bird was feeding her new chicks when she noticed the land owner was burning the brush piles. Had she built her nest there her babies would now be in flames, from then on she sung sweetly to the ranch hand.
Vigilance – this acknowledges the price we must pay for our liberty is indeed in the words of our founders eternal vigilance. It acknowledges that many hate liberty and prefer instead benevolent captivity. It calls on us to always be on guard and ready to fight. It requires us to act with honor, fight with strength, have courage in our own abilities and stay knowledgeable about real events.
Sovereignty – no man or woman can really have the above 5 virtues without seeing first that they themselves are sovereign. Most of the informed consider saying you are sovereign is a sign that you are greedy and out for yourself. Sad really! When I say I am a sovereign being, at the same time I am acknowledging that you are as well. When one does that they realize what they want is never important enough to take it at the expense of another beings sovereignty.
Individual Sovereignty is also the root of all power in a republic.
There is nothing wrong with your list, many of these things we teach right here at TSP like frugality, curiosity and tolerance but all of them come from the six guarding virtues of liberty.
Honor commands a man to be curious and seek to understand others if he is to be the man he claims to be. Sovereignty requires tolerance in recognizing the sovereignty of a fellow human.
I once delved into the Virtues and found that there are several lists that cover them. As you can see there are six groups of seven. Now with Jack’s list there are seven groups, but Jack’s list has only six in it. Is there a seventh that has not been thought of?
The Seven Heavenly Virtues:
The Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues: prudence, temperance, fortitude — or courage, and justice, with a variation of the theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.
– Faith – Benevolence, Simplicity, Continence, Virginity, Purity, Moral cleanness, Chastity
– Hope – Discipline, Joy, Patience, Contemplation, Contrition, Confession, Penitence
– Charity – Concord, Pleasantness, Indulgence, Peace, Forgiveness, Piety, Clemency, Compassion, Mercy
– Fortitude – Perserverence, Stability, Tolerance, Repose, Patience, Silence, Fidelity
– Justice – Observance of the Law, Correction, Law, Truth, Judgment, Severity, Rectitude
– Temperance – Morality, Observance of religion, Fasting, Discretion, Tractability, Contempt of the world, Sobriety
– Prudence – Memory, Reason, Providence, Fear of God, Intelligence, Discretion, Diligence
The Seven Contrary Virtues:
The Contrary Virtues were derived from the Psychomachia (“Battle for the Soul”), an epic poem written by Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is alledged to protect one against temptation toward the Seven Deadly Sins:
– Humility against Pride
– Kindness against Envy
– Abstinence against Gluttony
– Chastity against Lust
– Patience against Anger
– Generosity against Greed
– Diligence against Sloth.
The Seven Corporal Works of Mercy:
Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian Church assembled a list of seven good works that was included in medieval catechisms. They are:
– Feed the hungry
– Give drink to the thirsty
– Give shelter to strangers
– Clothe the naked
– Visit the sick
– Minister to prisoners
– Bury the dead.
The Seven Spiritual Works of Mercy:
– Counsel the Doubtful
– Instruct the Ignorant
– Admonish the Sinner
– Comfort the Sorrowful
– Forgive Injuries
– Bear Wrongs Patiently
– Pray for the Living and Dead.
Gandhi’s Seven Deadly Sins:
Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi, one of the most influential figures in modern social and political activism, considered these traits to be the most spiritually perilous to humanity.
– Wealth without Work
– Pleasure without Conscience
– Science without Humanity
– Knowledge without Character
– Politics without Principle
– Commerce without Morality
– Worship without Sacrifice.
Seven Virtues of Bushido:
– “Gi” The Right Decision, Rectitude.
– “Yu” Valor.
– “Jin” Benevolence.
– “Rei” Respect.
– “Makoto” Honesty.
– “Meiyo” Honor.
– “Chugi” Loyalty
I will be using those six virtues in an upcoming sermon for church. People need strength from the pulpit like they USED to get in this country. Our pastors used to fight for what is right, now they fight for what is popular. Pastors used to teach godly morals and principles but now they sway to and fro with the winds of public opinion. Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;. The pastors of America must not lose zeal for the things of God. We are allowing the government to tell us what we can and cannot do. This is a sign of a church with no backbone. My pastor told me that the pulpit is not the place for “politics” and I told him I’m glad no one told Martin Luther King Jr. that.
I hope to own the coins with the six virtues on them!! What a treasure they would be.
God is not in the building we call a church, he is in his very creation, in all things living and non living. God is in all systems, forms, functions and components that make up the universe. God is the mathematical art that makes karma a simple matter of energetic balance. ~Jack Spirko
Possibly not what you are looking for but I think it will lead to why you are so unhappy with the current state of affairs with your faith and those in power inside your church.
I see there is a “Religion and Parenting” section on the forum. What about a “Religion and Liberty” section of the forum? Seems like a topic with a lot of passion.
I think it would be wise to use such a list, but speaking to an audience of believers, it would be best to frame it from Christ’s sermon on the mount. The issue I see with Jack’s take on what “virtues” are is that they start at a variable that effectively is dividing by zero. Sovereignty is a false god, and is merely a house built on sand.
If you identify yourself as Christian then you are not sovereign. Many of the letters of the apostles in the New Testament talked many times about being bond-servants of Christ. In doing so, your life is not carte blanche. It is not your own. You have been given a higher calling than any man could dream of. In my opinion that means ALL men are not sovereign because Christ came to save ALL men, it just appears that many just don’t care about having a life after getting off this marble.
It isn’t the fact that the virtues are baseless. Quite the opposite, they do have worth (not as much as love as Paul told us), but where they originate from and how they are given their worth come from God not a single ‘sovereign’ man. To have these virtues without a grounding in Christ is basically just a game of monopoly.
I think your taking this in the wrong direction.
Jack’s talking about the relationship between the individual human being and the state.
The ‘state’ is a creation of men, therefore men are ‘sovereign’ over the state.
If you believe that the state is your creator.. then it would logically follow that it was sovereign over the individual.
Summary: A creation is subject to its creator. Therefore, the state is subject to its citizenry (the citizenry is ‘sovereign’ over the state).
I’m sure if you want to take this into metaphysics, you’ll see that its in alignment with your beliefs.
Actually, the state is not created by men, that is my point. FYI, Romans 13:1
“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
The believe that there is some separation between church and state is a flat-out lie.
BTW, because you are a slave to Christ, you are ALWAYS on the hook for your choices, judgements, actions, etc. More so than the non-believer.
Scott, so where does that pile of bullshit leave you if you use the LOGIC AND REASON God gave you I mean, you said,
“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
If you buy into that being anything other than the writers doing what they had to for the purpose of getting the word out during the time they existed in this is a list of WHAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO SUBMIT TO.
Note that some of this I oppose with my very last breath and some I support but NONE do I expect to be ordered by the state but ALL YOU MUST by your own words shut your Fing hole and accept because scripture requires you to do so blindly.
1. Accept gay marriage the highest court in the land which is certainly a “governing authority” just told you to shut your ass up and do so.
2. Accept that in some areas you are not allowed to be a Christian, you just have to shut your beak and accept it because “governing authority” put in place according to you by Christ says so. In fact in some nations you are to lie down and allow your head to be cut off. Or tell the authorities who needs the head chopped off for their belief because, “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
3. Accept that you have no right to decide what you put in your own body a “governing authority” called a judge in the MI supreme court said so.
4. Shut the F up and accept that the NSA, the CIA, the DOJ and the FBI all have a right to ignore the constitution and spy on your private data because a “governing authority” allowed to exit by Christ said so.
5. Shut your ass whenever any governing authority ignores a superior governing authority and just does what they please because Christ allowed them to exist.
6. If the congress passes a law in conflict with the constitution like banning guns to shut your beak and turn in your guns. Said governance is according to you, “the will of Christ”.
7. If you were in Nazi Germany in 1938 to turn in your filthy Jew neighbor to the party, then turn in the gipsy, then the Catholic, then march blindly into the overs or gas chambers when they came for you.
8. If in 1776 when the Declaration was signed to remain bound to the King of England as your duly appointed “governing authority” because Christ said so.
9. To accept that a 5 year old student should be integrated for so long that he pees his pants because the “governing authority” known as the school board that can only exist because Christ is okay with it says so.
10. Accept the fact that in some places you can be put in prison simply for the fact that you have a device that COULD hold more than 7 rounds of ammo for a weapon used to defend yourself even if it is never loaded or used.
Do you really believe such bull shit? If so you are listening to a pastor apart from your own God given reason!
Honestly I couldn’t disagree more with your assessment of sovereignty. Sovereignty has numerous context definitions, but in this context it is sovereign in relation to any other man or group of men. Your divine interactions are internal to you and hence irrelevant to discussing how men interact (or at least should be).
Additionally, even from a Christian perspective, to suggest that man would not have sovereignty in this life would reject personal responsibility and nullify any just judgement. You HAVE to be sovereign to make choices, and if you can’t make choices, then what do you believe you will be judged by? JMO, but I think you are conflating sovereignty with pride (again in the biblical sense since that has numerous definitions as well).
Which is why when the state claims to be the “ultimate parent” I say FOAD. Let that bounce around in your noodle a bit.
@ InBox485 –
When you practice Zen Meditation.. there is a practice where you watch your mind, and notice that: you think something, then there is a slight pause, then your ego rises up and claims ownership for the thought.
(the goal is to show you that you’re not your ego)
The state is exactly the same. Constantly showing up to claim credit/ownership of things it had nothing to do with.
Crime falls? Its government action. Crime rises? Not their fault (drugs, poverty, terrorists..)
Economy booming, its the government! Economy crashes? Evil speculators and irresponsible people!
Government is a giant spoiled narcissistic child, and its time it got a spanking.
Since I’m in an apologist mood.. 🙂
Also, Jack’s list is a list of virtue’s for a ‘citizen wanting to preserve liberty’.. not a ‘list of all virtues’ or a summary of ‘virtues as practiced within x religion’.
There is no one all encompassing list or precedence of virtues.. as different virtues are valued more or less based on the person/profession.
Example: In a soldier, bravery would be highly valued.. while in a mother, compassion would be higher on the list. Obedience would be a soldierly virtue, but a vice to a societal reformer.
Virtue – A positive trait or quality deemed to be morally good.. thus valued as a foundational principle of a good moral being.. [of] promoting collective and individual greatness.
@Scott – (wrong level of reply.. sorry)
IMO Your mixing your own doctrine up. ‘Render unto Ceaser the things that are Ceaser, and unto God the things that are God’s’. I don’t think Paul trumps Christ on separation of Church and State.. 😉
And as this is the internet.. I’m going to pull the Nazi card. So.. what you’re arguing is that the Third Reich was established by God, and therefore the appropriate response to it was to obey it? (I am not saying this sarcastically).
Assuming that you know the ‘end’ to which God has created something is a bit egotistical.
Did he create it to endure and to be obeyed? Or to test and perfect men in the struggle to overcome it?
Is meekly allowing yourself and others to be tortured and murdered by the ‘authorities established by God’ a Christian ‘virtue’?
If such is your belief, then live your belief. I believe differently.
Again, not meant to be inflammatory. Just food for thought.
@Insidious & Jack
For some reason I can’t reply directly to Jack’s tirade above, so I will do my best here.
Paul never contradicts Jesus when he spoke of all men falling under government rule. You have to keep everything in context. Jesus was merely talking about money and taxes which are things created by men. The rule of law and governance is what God created. It is very much His to have a say in what he expects of his followers.
Keep in mind, the book of Romans was considered to be the ‘5th gospel’ by Martin Luther. That is how important that book is when you talk about rubber meeting the road for Christians. I would highly suggest that you sit, read it, and let it sink in before arguing against it. I am not saying that YOU are a christian; quite the opposite, to quote the Godfather: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. If you have an ax to grind against christians, then I think it wise that you know the material much better than them.
My only question is when was the last time you truly sat down to read something such as the sermon on the mount? With all your well honed critical thinking skills, logic, experiences in life, etc., and then asking yourself the questions about something such as ‘what is cheap vs. costly grace?’ I feel many hate what they think christianity is because of what others have told them over the years, or the way people acted, etc. But they never took the time to clear their mind, read this stuff for themselves, and realize the problem was never Christ, it was the minions doing a very poor job doing what the boss wants of us (love and grace), and He would love to have some us start over with humility and selflessness.
I am not going to give you a Bible study because I think you are more than capable if you are willing to take the time to understand what you are reading. There are plenty of instances were God has slapped-down His people to get them back on track. It isn’t obvious, many of things that you mention Jack are short-sighted minutia. God had to get a tyrannical pharaoh in Egypt to create the environment for His people to even want to leave (up until that point they were doing quite well there; why leave for some other promised land?). I would go so far to say that God allowed Germany to do what it did knowing that the new state of Israel would be the outcome. To our feeble and short-timeline lives, it is tragic and looks like the Leviathan, the best we ever do is hindsight; but to the devine, it is all understood and known.
To answer your childish tirade, you need only look to Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” Money, as I see it, is Jesus referring to the world-of-man. If you answer to God, when men begin to ask you to do things that are against God’s laws (keep in mind Jesus distilled these laws to the huge number of 2), you don’t do what you are being asked to do.
In the end, you might be the person getting your head separated from your body as you mentioned, but last time I checked nobody is getting out of here alive.
@Scott, this is the trouble for most Christians and I say this with complete respect for your faith, please understand that. What you don’t understand, none of you seem to anyway, is it doesn’t matter to a non Christian what the bible says. We may see wisdom in parts of it but we are not bound to it as if by some obligation, debt or magic. I don’t know why this is hard for you to understand?
Do you feel bound by the Egyptian Book of the Dead? Well since it reads like a copy of the 10 commandments and was written centuries earlier perhaps but I guess you get my point?
If I told you that the Quran says ________ so you should do _______? What would you tell me? I imagine that you don’t care what the Quran says because you are not a Muslim right?
Look saying to me but it says in the letters of Paul that you should _______ is about as effective as telling me that the King of England says I am supposed to do something, why, I am not a Christian, I don’t believe what you do and therefore I am not bound by anything your Bible tells you. Doesn’t mean I haven’t read it, or that I never read it, on the contrary I likely know it a bit better then many who say they live by it.
What you are is a victim of selective interpretation here. The Bible is FULL of people who resisted government, didn’t submit and were BLESSED BY GOD FOR DOING IT, in fact the Bible is full of men commanded by God to resist authority of man in obedience to God.
I hate to tell you your own faith but this seems to demand I do. You are commanded to submit to the authority of man EXCEPT when it is in conflict with the commands of your God. Do you not get that? What if your government passed a law that said all men with your hair color were now required to kill one man with another hair color? Would you submit? Would you carry out the order?
Noooooooo, irreverent you say, that can never happen. Okay what if your government passed a law that said all people of the Muslim faith were to be rounded up, put in camps and gassed and that all citizens were to alert the authorities to the whereabouts of any suspected Muslims at once. Don’t say that can’t happen, because it did if we just change Muslim to Jew. Now say you had a nice Muslim neighbor who was always kind to you, would you then Scott, submit to authority and call the thugs to hall him off. If he came to you and begged you to help him get away and you could, would you or would you submit and turn him in?
Your little claim is simple as long as your conflict with the laws of God are minor isn’t it? As long as we are just talking about stealing it is simple but move the sin up to murder and it isn’t so easy is it?
You seem to indicate you get this in your response but you don’t. If you did you would not even make the point you started out with. God doesn’t expect you to submit to authority just because it exists. That is complete and total nonsense even for a devout practicing Christian like I USED TO BE.
The reality is this statement is in conflict with Jesus’ teaching, I am sorry it just is, “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” in fact you just proved it above with the quote about two masters. Paul was trying to make nice with authority and get a fledgling church started. Do you get he wasn’t “writing the bible” not in his mind. It wasn’t like someone said Paul hey man, can you knock out some stuff for the after story at the end of this book. The man was DEAD for centuries before his words were canonized.
The letters of Paul in the bible are there BECAUSE THEY SURVIVED long enough to be included, that is all nothing more. The man wrote likely hundreds of letters to hundreds of Churches that were lost to history and burned by authorities. When you put your faith in the Bible beyond the core message of Christ you put your faith not in God but in a group of men that 300 years after his death and resurrection decided what went in and what didn’t based on what was even left by the time they got around to it.
Consider 300 years is longer then our nation has even existed at a time when very few could read and even fewer could write. Even when I was a believer I understood these things and didn’t practice what can only be called a blind faith. So you go on and submit to your government, keep doing it, I and I believe many of your fellow Christians will fight it, because doing so while tyranny rises is the only thing a righteous man can do, regardless of the source of his righteousness.
You say Jesus distilled the whole of the law into two laws, I agree and I say by your own words you are called on to fight because the authority you are currently submitting to is violating those every day, calling on fellow citizens to do so as well and doing a damn good job of getting it done.
@Scott (reply to @Insidious & Jack) –
First off, I apologize for foolishly referring to your book.
Here’s a more succinct way of saying this:
Scott – I believe no matter what the state does you should submit to it.
Me – Well, the state has a history of doing bad things, so that might not be such a good idea
Jack – F* NO!! You gotta be kidding me. Look at x, y, z.. holy crap!!! 😉
Scott – I don’t care, my book says you should do it
As a liberty minded person, if you want to march you and your family into the gas chamber to fulfill your religious beliefs.. that’s your own business.
But to use your own reference.. yes, I believe the ‘golden rule’ (love thy neighbor as thyself) REQUIRES me to stand against tyranny. But of course your book says I shouldn’t.
Anyway. I do appreciate you making me think about Jesus statements regarding ‘render unto Ceaser’.. because it made me realize something..
The context was that the Roman government wanted the Jews to pay a tax, and they were looking for a way to say, that for religious reasons, they shouldn’t pay it. Jesus said they should.
Which means, according to the Bible, all of you churches out there need to immediately surrender your tax exempt status. If not, you’re violating God’s word.
By the way.. anytime a debate goes to ‘the bible says x therefore x is true’ the ‘debate’ is over.
You’ve exited a logical discussion, and entered the realm of logical fallacy. You’re either into circular reasoning, or you’re begging the question.
So, I will try and remember this and not enter into discussions that begin with ‘The Bible says..’ unless its clear that the intent is to determine the truth of said statement.
Great point the only reason I answer these is in case there is an on looker on the walk I was beginning about a decade ago. There is no way a person like Scott will listen to what I am saying, but someone watching might and for their benefit it is worth it. I have no desire to convert anyone to anything but I do have a strong desire to answer the questions that are already on a person’s heart.
This is cryptic that the replies can’t be nested where you would expect…
Guys, this is a complete head scratcher to me. My initial reply was to a pastor saying he was about to talk about virtues to a congregation of Christians. My advice to him was to make sure he talked to those virtues from God’s point-of-view (sermon on the mount), and not someone that I would call at best an agnostic from what he has spoken to in his podcast (Jack).
This entire conversation has broken down to two sides that will never meet. I understand that. Our beliefs have foundations that start in completely different places. For Christians, they believe God is the only absolute sovereign. Everything falls under His rule from nations to virtues. He is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. And to try to create some type of sovereignty outside of God is a false god. It is an article of faith.
Again, article of faith, being a slave to Christ. Neither of you have addressed that issue, but I don’t think you need to. Because, your starting point is entirely different. A term that you will hear in many christian circles is ‘to be truly free is to be obedient.’ It is paradoxical and cryptic looking from the outside in.
It amazes me how people do not see how much Jesus is a libertarian. The vast majority of the time he is always telling people ‘don’t worry about what your neighbor is doing (the splitter in their eye); because you need to focus on getting your own house in order (the log in your eye).’ None of us are going to getting all of this life right, so do it all with humility and a mindset to serve (just as Jesus washed the feet of the disciples). I am not trying to convert anyone, that is bad practice, Jesus wants people to come to Him voluntarily (very libertarian), trying to ‘convert’ others almosts sounds like brainwashing. I merely make points to help clean what appears to be colored lens you see christianity with. It is all based on love.
And no, my words do not contradict each other. Again, looking from the outside, I guess it is possible to be seen as an enigma, but realizing you are subject to the rule of law and government because all of this falls under Him does not mean that you follow the laws of men blindly. All laws have to pass the litmus test of the only two commandments Jesus said you need to remember. If it doesn’t pass, it is against God’s will, you don’t have to do it. You don’t apply these commandments to only people you like or with the same secret decoder ring, you apply them to EVERYONE. This seems really obvious to me; Jesus is not asking everybody to understand all the partial stress terms in the boundary layer of fluid flow.
There are many methods to fight what you speak of (from bullets to jury nullification). Tatics vary.
Scott, I really don’t mean to come off as a dick, but I probably will. You are completely failing to reconcile conflicting arguments. Either all men should be subject to all governments and all governments stem from God and you worship a Nazi loving psychopath and those that failed to subject themselves to Nazi authority are going to hell or their is an issue with that passage.
First assumption that is a patent fallacy is that words in the bible were spoken or written by the person whose name the words are attributed to. From Genesis through Revelations, this is frequently not the case. Much of it is third and fourth hand writings. All of it spent centuries in the care of gatekeepers with vested interests in making convenient alterations, and all of it involves second or third hand translations with conflicting versions, many of which came to be under supervision of powers not to be crossed under pain of death, then finally they all got slapped together in various forms under one cover and called a holy library that many seem to think is a single book.
Second assumption is that even if every word of the bible you have in your possession just happened to be correct as intended, the letters included in the library are being assumed to be 100% gospel declarations. Do you do that “holy kiss” thing too? Paul “commanded” you to according to some… Do you even realize that the decisions to include or exclude LETTERS from the library were made by votes centuries after they were written, and proof that the individual writings are authentic didn’t even exist back then let alone now? Just to be clear these EXACT SAME MEN put things like if women and animals have souls (women won by one vote and animals lost by one vote). Why on earth would you accept such matters that were generated in such a haphazard manner as if they came from the mouth of God to you in your bedroom? The only way any of that could make sense is if you have accepted for your God the version of the bible you read.
@Scott I am not even close to being agnostic. I am a deist, like Franklin, Jefferson, Washington and quite a few of out other founders, though certainly not all of them. If you want to see yourself as a slave to God fine, go ahead but that is REALLY out of context even for your own faith.
If you want to be this literal I guess disobedient children should also be put to death? Women should be separated from men during their menstrual cycles?
I mean seriously how does even the most devout believer take the bible as something to be interpreted without any personal thought, context or judgement.
Your belief that you are to be a slave in the literal sense to Christ isn’t even accurate in your own faith. Do you know what it is to be a slave. You do only your master’s bidding at all times and he owns you. IF that is what Jesus really meant (if even those are the words truly spoken) he is no libertarian.
Faith is one thing, blind literal faith that ignores centuries of literary alteration is another.
Again though please don’t call me an agnostic, I have to much faith in the creator for that not to be an complete insult.
@ Scott: I appreciate what you’re trying to articulate here. Perhaps the point you were making is that confessing Christians believe that even bad/poor/flawed leaders received their authority by the will of God. Same holds true for parents. The “office” of king, president, father, etc. is to be respected, despite the failings (or even evils) of the person that holds it. See Jesus’ comments to Pontius Pilate for Biblical evidence of that. That doesn’t mean to turn a blind eye to evil. I may find some of the policies of the president to be abhorrent. That doesn’t mean it would be appropriate for me to grab my crotch and wave the bird as his motorcade passes by.
At the same time, “We are to obey God, rather than men.” (Acts 5:29). If and when a government makes laws or does things that are evil (or for the Christian, sinful), then we must reject and condemn such actions and not obey. On the other hand, if there are certain laws we find annoying or inconvenient, it doesn’t give us license for outright revolt. Further, there are many secular issues that Christ didn’t speak to. His central mission wasn’t to create heaven on earth. It was to rescue sinful men and women from the devil, the world, and our own sinful nature.
What the dialogue here indicates is that there are limits to the discussion that can be had between those who confess Scripture to be the inerrant Word of God, and those who confess that scripture might contain some of God’s Word or some eternal truths. Those that believe that the Word that has been handed down is inerrant (and I am among them, minor problems with transcription notwithstanding) will be called simpletons and their faith will be labeled as “blind.” While orthodox Christians “..walk by faith, not by sight,” we don’t set aside reason. Rather, reason is used to read Scripture and make sense of context. Reason is ministerial to the Gospel, not magisterial over it. Also, viewing Scripture as “inerrant” should not be confused with taking every verse “literally.” Jesus himself uses pictoral language frequently, and it’s almost aways clear when he is doing so (parables, etc.). What I find is ironic is how often verse are taken out of context, isolated, and used as “proof texts” against “blind believers” that are foolish enough to believe that God has protected and handed down his Word using means…the means of the church. Christ must be a fool as well, because he said of the Old Testament that “these are the scriptures that testify of me.”
I think you’re struggling with folks in this thread for two main rasons. First, message board evangelism is not effective. But also because your statements indicate that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that His Word was preserved for the church (despite the place of sinful people in the church), and that Jesus’ central “mission” was the eternal salvation of souls, not chicken soup for the soul. Such a bold proclamation as that will always be met with “you hypocrites.” And yet, many would extol the virtues of Jesus as teacher, or Jesus as philospher, but ignore his own claims that he was the Son of God. Few are consistent enough to say that Jesus must have been a liar or completely insane.
Everybody has a god (or gods). Being a slave to Christ requires, among other things, not making ourselves to be God, but submitting to God as the thing we fear, love, and trust above all things (rather than ourselves, or skills, or even secular liberty). I hestitate to type each word and hit “Post Comment.” I firmly believe that these kinds of discussions aren’t appropriate for places like this. I also understand that quoting Scripture doesn’t mean a whole lot to somebody that has a suspect view of its inerrancy.
But Jack said he posted out of concern for people that read this thread that “are where he was” some years ago. I guess I posted, Scott, because I wanted to tell you that I understand your sentiment, though we may or may not agree on exactly what it means to “submit to the governing authorities.” But I also posted because I didn’t appreciate the way that Scripture-confessing Christians were portrayed (and frankly, insulted) in the insuing discussion.
–Charles (aka, Rational Husker)
Thanks for bringing in another perspective.
If any insult was taken, please know that none was intended.
My frustration/concern is when someone states ‘The Bible says..’ as a conversation ender. The ‘Final’ argument. This might work with other believers, but obviously is ineffective with non-believers.. who at best come away insulted that you’re claiming to know capital T truth.
IMO it needs to be the BEGINNING of a discussion, not the end.
(my personal favorite biblical ‘taking things out of context’ misrepresentation.. is quoting the arguments made by Job’s friends as proof of the biblical support of prosperity doctrine)
@ Insidious: I tried to measure my response carefully. And like I said, I do understand that the Christian world view will refer to God’s Word (if it indeed has anything to say on the matter at hand), but that it cannot be the gavel in conversation and debate with somebody that does not hold the same view of the Bible.
And I like your prosperity doctrine example. A very American “heresy” if I dare say 🙂 Glad you didn’t find my comments terribly abrasive or arrogant. I hope others will take them in a similar way.
Most of your comment is good but this is simply not factual, not for a second.
“But I also posted because I didn’t appreciate the way that Scripture-confessing Christians were portrayed (and frankly, insulted) in the insuing discussion.”
No one was insulted, to say I think you are wrong, don’t agree and think you are misleading yourself and here is why is not an insult.
This is an issue I tend to have with many Christians. You could debate ANY OTHER SUBJECT with them the exact same way and they wouldn’t feel insulted or ridiculed. But do it with their faith and all of the sudden they are called simpletons and insulted and etc. etc. etc.
No one insulted anyone, no one called anyone stupid. I did say things like if you buy the BS that the bible calls on us to submit to all authority and interpret that literally you are wrong, that IS NOT A FRICKEN INSULT.
I read the whole thread again, and you’re right. You didn’t insult. You have a very direct, blunt, and forceful debating style that often isn’t well received by our politically correct culture. I like to think of myself as being immune to that “let’s all be nice” mentality, but honest reflection suggests that sometimes (as in this case) I’m not. Intensely personal issues such as family, faith, etc. “raises the stakes” and makes offense more likely, I suppose.
I do disagree with your statements re: the inerrancy (again, not to be confused with absolute literalism) of God’s Word and “…centuries of literary alteration…” I’m well aware of issues regarding apostolic authorship, designation of canonical books, etc. Anyway, even if you wanted full on theological debate on TSP (which I’m certain you don’t), the internet doesn’t lend itself well to that. And though it might surprise you, I share your disdain for Christians that misuse God’s Word for personal gain or personal doctrine. Prosperity doctrine, as Insidious pointed out, is a wonderful (bad) example. So is liberation theology.
I just felt compelled to try and articulate the view of somebody that does hold the Bible to be inerrant, that positions (not the bad actions) of authority are to be respected (Biblically speaking), and that evil is to be condemned and rejected. Lots of gray area here, too, simply because Christ’s teachings were not meant to be a how-to obtain Utopia on earth.
Hope we can shake hands on this one. Maybe even in person if I catch you in Des Moines.
Well we just disagree on inerrancy then, and even apart from my lack of lets call it Christian faith. I never got this, could have ever gotten this, can’t get this even in the hypothetical if I believed most what you believe world still today. It is as if you guys think God just set events into place that made sure men who had their own best interest at heart picked just the right stuff for his actgual word to come though with no errors.
Let me tell you flat, if God spoke to you last night and told you to write some things down in the morning, I don’t think you would get it exactly right even free from bias. I don’t think I would and my memory is nearly but not quite identic, at least if I am interested and if I hear it, reading doesn’t work that way for me, and let me tell ya if God started talking to me, I would absolutely be interested.
So if you wouldn’t get it perfect and I wouldn’t get it perfect some guy that heard some guy the wrote in the name of some other guy wouldn’t either.
Let me be clear, I am saying I don’t get your view even if I say, yep Jesus is the answer, the bible is the word of God and we should live by it. I just don’t get how anyone can believe a book complied by men, written by many other men over so long a time, could be free of any errors and the 100% accurate word of God himself, EVEN IF God told every author what to write.
Completely putting aside the faith aspects and just applying some ration to the contents of the book or specifically that passage that was cited. Not sure what you mean by inerrant. Either it is 100% the literal words of God, or it is less than 100%.
Treating more narrowly, here is the list of assumptions you have to make to accept that Paul claimed that it is God’s gospel that all government is divine:
– That Paul actually wrote it.
– That nobody altered it during the 300 years the letters floated around, were copied, sold as novelties, etc.
– That Paul actually meant it.
– That Paul intended to infer that statement as a matter of gospel and not just part of a letter.
You can be Christian and think rationally about the individual contents of a library of writings that were put into the same binding for the first time by the votes of men hundreds of years after the apostles were dead.
RationalHusker, you are much more articulate than myself. My concern was towards a pastor about to relay this to a congregation, and the foundation of virtues and sovereignty being wrong. Online evangelism was never my intent.
Jack, you are absolutely right, and I apologize for calling you an agnostic. In my brain, I just assume deist would give a god/creator the same level of sovereignty as a christian if they truly believe that god is powerful enough to actually create the universe. I guess that isn’t necessarily the case.
As far as everybody always referring back to levitical law when they want to bash Christians, why do they bother? This is the part I don’t understand. Again, Romans, Paul said ‘For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.’ That was the break, by our faith in Him and his grace through his blood. All those Old Testament rules do not apply in your salvation anymore, so no need to worry about killing the kids anymore when they get out-of-line. Same with Peter in Acts seeing all the non-kosher food falling from the sky.
To end, and I know everyone is complaining about ending on Bible text. If I end with something of that nature, it is to add to the conversation, thoughts, and discussion as time continues. It isn’t my intention for it to act as some type of gavel or finality.
Hmm why do we bring up Leviticus Law? Well let’s see, people like you say the Bible is the infalable word of God. The book of Leviticus is part of the Bible and says these things, then Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”
Typically this is when a person of faith whips out the he who is without sin should cast the first stone story and ignores so many things.
1. The scripture states that the woman was brought to Jesus to try to TRICK HIM. Do you get that?
2. From item one we know by the time of Jesus it was NOT common to stone a adulterer to death, if it were there was no tricking to be done
3. Jesus never said she wasn’t to be stoned just that a person with no sin should cast the first one, now we both no no such person exists
In this story Jesus never actually spoke against the law or the implications for its violations, he played a very smart hand of poker. The people tempted him with an outdated punishment and he found a way to circumvent the issue. See you don’t get to say the bible is infallible and just then pick and choose what parts you choose to accept.
But back to the NT, didn’t Paul say of women, Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.”? So should females not serve or speak in at services?
I mean I get your faith, I just don’t get your faith in a book put together by men who voted on it 300 years after the MOST RECENT portion was written. I am sorry to me it does seem as blind faith.
Now on Deism, no a Deist doesn’t see God as sovereign as you mean the word, not at all. As a Deist I believe God is in your language the Alpha and the Omega and hence doesn’t need me to do his will because his will shall be done period. No matter what I do the creator has created a perfect creation that is so much larger and smaller then this earth at the same time. The universe is perfect, parallel universes are perfect but so is the atom, the electron and the quark.
I am not saved by either faith or works, I am not in need of salvation as a Deist. As a Deist I don’t have a God that is or ever was Jealous or ever killed anyone or required the death of anyone. To me God is the singularity, the sum total of all energy and all consciousness that existed, exists or will ever exist. I and you and the rocks and trees are all part of God but not in the way you would call pantheism. God is both separate and inclusive at the same time.
On some levels I am a Gnostic Christian but with out the belief that Jesus alone was the answer. I actually think the Father, Son and Holly Ghost explain a LOT of things including my own system of beliefs. God the father is the singularity, the sons are all consciousness and the spirit is the bridge between the two. This actually fits just about every faith on the planet, but then what do I know, I am just a son of a coal miner 40 something red neck.
I guess where I come from on this is that
a) I am Christian. I believe in both the old and new testaments.
b) I also know how they came to be and that whatever core truths are in them, it is physically impossible to rely on each individual word or sentence in the book, and why if there is any truth to be learned, it is required to know the histories of the individual writings, who the speakers are and what claims and inferences are being made. For example, even if it is taken at face value that Paul did indeed write that all governments are divine, where is it written or even implied that Paul was claiming to relay God’s words on that detail? Do you put the same stock in things like the claim that Paul “commanded” all to give holy kisses to fellow Christians?
c) In many years of study I have never seen legitimate reasoning to equate service or worship to slavery. If you really are a “slave” without sovereignty then how exactly will you “choose you this day who you will serve” if that option has been taken from you? The closest I’ve seen is a patently wrong claim to “slave” being the proper word translation. Last I checked I get to choose, and my choice is my own as are the consequences of those choices. Since when could a slave say that?
I also know the differences and nuance of the words destroy and fulfill as they were used and relate to the law of Moses (which for those keeping track didn’t exist from Adam up until Moses).
This is why this just doesn’t work. These conversations tend to spiral and spiral in this type of media. But I do want to clarify just a few things, and then I’m done. I’m sorry for my part in turning this into a theological debate.
1. Re: inerrancy vs. literalism. They are not the same. There are portions of scripture that are clearly pictorial. Frequently, Jesus spoke in parables. He’d say something like: “There was a vineyard owner…” I don’t necessarily believe that this owner was a real person. Perhaps better examples are in the Book of Revelation, where numbers and symbols are used. I don’t believe there are errors in the Bible, but I also do not believe that every reference to 1,000 years means a literal 1,000 years, etc.
2. Re: the likelihood of errors creeping into the manuscripts before or as they were assembled: Sure, there were likely minor transcription errors by scribes. Mostly grammatical or missing a word here or there, but nothing that hinders what God means when he says ____. How could Paul write everything down without his bias? How could the church possible make correct determinations of what letters were inspired vs. which ones were personal rants? I believe God’s hand was active in that. Christ himself continually refers to the Old Testament books. He never mentions errors.
3. Re: blind faith. In the end, perhaps it is blind to some extent. Again, we walk by faith, not by sight. That doesn’t divorce us from reason, but we do recognize the limits of human reason. Were it not so, it would simply be called knowledge, not faith. And I’ll finish with this. What is “easier” to believe or accept? (1) The resurrection, or (2) that God protected his word as it was handed down to us?
Question for Rob (or Jack) –
Is there a way to ‘elevate’ a customer service issue via e-mail? (supervisor e-mail or something..)
I couldn’t find anything on the Mulligan Mint or the partner sites.
Step One – Use standard customer service with MM on the site.
Step Two – If you are not responded to in a REASONABLE amount of time (all caps for others not you man) then you email about it, include your time of contact and details and I ELEVATE it strait up Rob’s ass.
I’m serious. Sometimes stuff gets filtered and all but if anyone ever FIRST tries to get a resolution with TSP Mint or any sponsor or partner and then doesn’t, key is you try with them FIRST you just email me and I will square it away.
Hey brother have you looked into the Amazon FBA program?
all you have to do is drop ship your stuff to their warehouse and they do everything else, I just have a small store on Amazon so it’s free but on the stuff I sell they charge 10% plus $1 per sale, if you buy the merchant account for $40 a month the fees a smaller and since it’s in the Amazon warehouse it qualifies for free shipping…just a thought, this is also a great program for preppers, in case you didn’t know everything sold on Amazon is sold by private sellers or retailers, the price you see on a particular item is the Highest price they have on that item in their warehouse….tons of money to be made on Amazon!!!
Just some thoughts on stuff that I’d hope MM is learning from SBSS but I’m not sure they are (and no I’m not even going to mention any names):
– Strongly consider not releasing anything as proof only. There are some cool proof only coins in the set, but at some point all but the most die hard collectors get tired of everything proof. I’m 50x more likely to buy 5-10 BUs than 1-5 proofs. Not withstanding the die hard collectors, people get proofed out after a while.
– Related to above, if you are selling something like “Your Highness” which very closely mimics the Canadian maple leaf, there are a whole lot of people that would probably stock up on it instead of something like a maple leaf if it wasn’t proof only.
– Strongly consider not releasing anything premium (proof, LE, etc) by itself. It is a lot easier to be sold on buying 5-10 of the latest BU and snag a proof to go along with it than to buy a proof by itself. MM says small orders are a killer, but a number of releases seem to have encouraged just that.
– I’m not sure who’s idea the 5 oz D&D round was, and to each his own but the premium on that is just insane. I know “if you don’t like it don’t buy it”, but really? Rock on with what you feel is best, but that would have made a cool stack as a barter round rather than an ultra premium round.
We never released anything as a proof only.
Sentinels, proof or BU
Ants the same
We did do a proof ONLY of Ant back and Sentinel front but that is different at least to me.
No full design by AOCS was ever released in proof only. If you can think of one tell me.
I mean like this Slave Queen was done as proof and BU
Freedom Girl was also a proof or BU
Then the did do a Freedom Girl and Slave Queen Hybrid as a proof only but neither was only a proof.
The Lakota Rounds were done in both BU and Proof. Can you give me any single primary run only done as a proof ever?
You are right, there wasn’t a full design that never was in BU. I was referring to things like the free reign and your highness as being proof only. With the obvious caveat that I don’t know all or even very many of the inside details, I would have released them in BU version as well so that a proof wasn’t being released solo. In particular I was hoping your highness would be in BU since it is a perfect mock parody of the maple leaf.
FWIW, I agree that the ant back sentinel was something different.
On the other bit, I seem to recall releases where the proof was released then the BU a short time later. If minimizing small orders is to the mints benefit, I would think doing releases that way would have the opposite effect.
Just thoughts – sorry if they weren’t articulated well.
Yep on the BUs and the Poofs and different releases moving to a 2 step channel will pretty much eliminate that issue.
As to your point about “Your Highness”, if you really like the pot leaf/maple leaf, buy the “Cannabis” round in BU. But buy soon, as MM is closing SBSS in about a week. “Your Highness” is exactly like the Ant/Sentinel in that they took two different coins and made them one coin, hence the proof only.
As far as MM proof coins, I will support Jack and buy one of each design that he comes out with, but I am not happy with the quality of the proofs. Four of my five Ant/Sentinels have very easy to see scratches and dings on them. My SBSS coins were similar (I thought that MM was supposed to have fixed that issue due to the early SBSS days). Meanwhile, my BU coins from MM come in beautiful most of the time. As a matter of fact, I ordered 16 ounces from TSP Mint last night, all BU’s. I MOSTLY buy silver for silver, not because it is a fancy proof coin that may be valuable someday. When I got my Debt and Deaths, the first thing I did was put one in my pocket with the other couple of ounces that I had in there. It is all dinged and scratched now. But I don’t do that with the proof coins. It makes no sense to put a scratched coin in a protective case, so I will not be spending the premium on proofs anymore than necessary to ensure that I get one of each of Jack’s designs.
But I refuse to pay the premium on the graded coins (How can you grade the first 1,500 coins at 69 or 70 for one design but not get a limited production of 1,000 coins right on another design?). So Jack, if you are reading this, please don’t bother with making graded coins.
I have no desire to return my coins for “good” ones. I will just wait until MM starts making good ones consistently before I buy five proofs again. Hopefully my five proof Sentinels will be worthy of the proof classification. If not, at least I get a kick ass looking poster to hang up with my order!! 🙂
Yes I know that the cannabis coin and the slave queen were just put back to back to make the your highness. It just made sense that if you are releasing a coin that mocks a coin that is normally stacked in bulk, doing a BU version would be part of it.
My proof ant sentinels were decent (I didin’t have huge scratches or anything), but I know what you are talking about. The sentinel BUs I got look like they got chewed up when the round was rimmed. You literally can’t drop them from a cotton glove they have so many burs on the rims. That said, I got my non graded free reign coins in and they really are flawless. I also got the second run freedom girl and slave queen rounds in, and they had none of the flaws the earlier rounds had (at a glance I could tell you which was which). I think the whole point of the “graded” proofs is to be able to say “look, we got it sorted, and an independent grading company is willing to sign off on our work”. More importantly, I think it is a really good sign that I’m seeing rounds that more often than not don’t have the flaws of a garage operation.
On, Your Highness. Okay. Now I get it. I feel a little stupid for not getting it earlier. What you said makes perfect sense. I agree that they should’ve made them in BU as well. I remember that the Slave Queen was being touted as a spoof of the Maple Leaf when they first came out with it. If they are going to throw the spoof of the other side of the Maple Leaf out there, and then put them together on one coin for a total spoof, it makes sense to make them in BU for people to stack.
On the quality, I am glad to hear that some of the newer coins are better. I was soured by the whole SBSS debacle, left the SSG and therefore didn’t buy any of the new ones except a handful of BU AG-47, and my brother wanted a Cannabis.
When are you going to fix the marketplace on AOCS web site. I would love to advertise some products from my homestead and look for things to buy for silver. In my mind that is one of the critical things to getting silver circulating as currency is the ability to find people that will take it. Right now I cant find a way to do that.
Also really looking forward to the 1/10 oz silver coins and being able to buy other AOCS products from one place.
Also just curious if there is a bit more back story to the whole crow thing. I seemed to recall the crow being old enemies of the lakota, and I wouldn’t have thought Custer’s last stand would be a crow celebration. Wasn’t exactly a crow victory.
I must say, this podcast and the announcement of the 1/10 ozt silver helped make my birthday (26 June) an awesome one.
Do these changes end or complicate the MSB discount for your silver items?
They will likely complicate it, but it may work out even better. We shall see.
I listened to the episode but missed some inf or didn’t sort it out.
The new 1/10 oz are coming out on July 1?
What is the status ofresellers (TSPmint, SBSS, providentmetals)? (IE willTSP minte be shutting down or what?
I have been looking for more info. on the “para-dimes” (is that how they are spelling it?) Are there any links?
guess you where wrong about Rob Gray thanks for stealing my 900$
I bet you are the same assclown on Youtube, again I am going to the mint in about one hour, you have now wasted enough of my time. IF YOU ARE NOT FULL OF SHIT, which I think you are, send me a copy of your order and I will personally hand it to Rob for you. Now when you continue to snipe and fail to produce said order, everyone will know how full of shit you are.
Jack, thanks for checking unto this. I have a small order in at sbss and am a little anxious about it. Would be pretty sad to miss the silver.
At the same time I would like to hear any updates on the 6 coin virtue series as well as the fractionals. A quick post here or a short segment in an upcoming episode would be great. Thanks