Episode-1466- Listener Feedback for 11-17-14
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Today on the Survival Podcast I take your comments, questions and thoughts on GenForward, concealed carry, economics, BOBs, guns, comfrey, big Ag and more.
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Join Me Today As I Respond to Your Emails On
- GenForward is here and here’s how it is a prepper concept
- Concealed carry tough questions about rules and laws
- What economic collapse really looks like, extraction mining of the middle class
- Thoughts on BOBs for kids
- Can you grow comfrey in a bucket, yep, here is how
- Is there any value in a 9mm AR platform over a 5.56 platform
- Is round up why wheat is toxic or is it gluten, nope, both
Resources for today’s show…
- Join the Members Brigade
- The Year 1466
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- Walking To Freedom
- TSP Gear
- PermaEthos.com
- AgriTrue.com
- GenForward on IndieGogo
- Knife Kits – (sponsor of the day)
- Backwoods Home – (sponsor of the day)
- Article on Killing Wheat with Roundup on Purpose
This Monday’s Prepper Scenario
Somehow you have screwed up and are in a bad situation. You are in an alley way with two men in front of you and two behind you. You do not have your gun for whatever reason. Anything else you keep in your EDC can be used here but again you have NO GUN. The men are approaching from both sides, they definitely mean you harm, you are outnumbered and you know it, what do you do?
Last Monday’s Prepper Scenario
A storm hits your neighborhood hard, you are without power for at least a week. There is a lot of damage to the neighborhood but you got off pretty easy, your house is still sound, any real damage is superficial. Others didn’t get off so easy, a close neighbor is among them. Their house has literally be destroyed and isn’t safe to live in. They are basically homeless and have no where to go.
You want to help them by offering them a bed and a room which you have, at the same time you don’t want them as house guests for the long haul. How long do you let them stay and how do you start off the arrangement so that there is a clear time limit for them to figure out what to do next? How do you do this while being sensitive to how traumatic the current situation is for them?
Remember to comment, chime in and tell us your thoughts, this podcast is one man’s opinion, not a lecture or sermon. Also please enter our listener appreciation contest and help spread the word about our show. Also remember you can call in your questions and comments to 866-65-THINK (866-658-4465) and you might hear yourself on the air.
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Correction to the History Segment…. 1466…
OJ Simpson was on trial for the murder of his wife Nicole AND her friend, Ronald Goldman. Goldman’s parents (not Nicole’s) sued Simpson and won for wrongful death. I will make that correction immediately to the TSP Wiki.
(Actually, what happened was that I realized the error the night before and corrected it on my local copy but somehow I didn’t make those corrections on the copy I sent to Jack.)
Please accept my apologies.
Alex Shrugged.
Prepper scenario: Well that’s a tough one for me since I have no fighting skills, especially against hardened street thugs, and 4 of them too. You said no firearm, but you didn’t say no pepper spray which I nearly always carry. Assuming I noticed them before they get too close for me to do anything, I’d head towards the two on one side (whichever was closer) and spray both of them, with a single press of the button… first one, then move stream to the other, then release button. Then try to run/push by them and run down the alley. If the other two follow, reach behind me and spray. This still seems quite high risk though and no guarantee of success.
I currently carry Fox brand 2oz with cone spray pattern. The cone spray would help make it easy to target them but could also be a blowback problem. I might be better off with Cold Steel Inferno (probably 2.5oz can) since it sprays foam.
Thanks for taking my question on 9mm carbine. I appreciate the point/counterpoint. Have you ever checked out the AR pistol with SIG brace? Basically a functional SBR without stamp and state transfer headache. Great point about the .308. Would you ever consider an AR pistol with said brace in any caliber?
LOVE the Sig brace and want to build one just because it slams BS laws in the ass. That said the off the shelf stuff is expensive and the parts plus an AR pistol add up fast.
prepper scenario: its not great, but as soon as I knew i am the target.
1. call emergency management get them on there way
2 looking to find an escape route. preferably up a fire escape
-trying to make space between them and me Space can mean more time.
3. i am identifying the speed that they are coming towards me. and if they have any weapons in there hands.
I want to get out of that alley, If they want to do me harm i want them as close to the street as i can get. I want it one on two not one on four.
Children should carry a bag that weighs no more than 10-15% of their body weight to avoid back injury. Also, if you’re on foot for any distance, it’s important to keep children’s loads light and rest often so you don’t end up carrying a tired child. Rain gear can double as an outer layer for wind and snow protection.
Wow calling osha type bullshit on that! That would mean a 75 pound kid should carry about 7.5 to 11 pounds, teacup much????
As a scoutmaster I have routinely seen 10 and 11 year olds hike for miles carrying almost half their body weight, and remind me I’m not 20 something anymore in the process. When I heard that question I immediately thought of the boy scout essentials: A pocket knife or multitool, A first aid kit, Extra clothing to match the weather, Rain gear, A flashlight, Trail food, Water in a refillable container, Matches and/or a firestarter, Sun and bug protection, Trail maps and compass.
It’s a good starting out point. It’s right around 8 or 9 (3rd grade) when cub scouts get their pocket knife toting privelages. Most handle it well. Kids in that age range will surprise the hell out of most people if put in an environment to do so, and given the space to do it.
Yep and I remember being 15 and needing money to buy a car when I turned 16. At the time I weighed may be a buck 30. Up on the mountain were old abandoned strip mines and mine shacks. You could not get a vehicle up there but you could hike in.
Just so people are clear this was not stealing. The coal companies abandoned this land in the 30s, and what I am about to say happened in the 80s.
In those shacks were hundreds of burned out old electric motors. They have laminated steel bodies with copper coils. The steel wasn’t worth much and they were heavy, very heavy but copper was like 75 cents a pound. These motors were about the size of a basket ball, just laying there rusting to shit.
I would hike up and take tin snips and a pair of pliers. I would cut one end of the coil off then pull the copper out the other side. It was long and hard work but paid a LOT better than 4 dollars an hour at the grocery where I had a j-o-b.
Any day I was off that summer I’d hike up there. I would bring back 80-90 pounds a day. Or about 60-65 dollars. I could do that in about 4-5 hours including the hike.
13 bucks an hour in 87 for a 15 year old kid was good money! Never did I get “injured” from carrying that load and some days it was heavier.
Now here is an irony, this was 87 again I wanted a car and made enough to meet my dads deal to buy one. I had to
1. Pay for the car
2. Have 500 dollars at least for gas/repairs on the day I bought it
3. Pay the insurance for a full year on the day I bought the car
By the end of that summer even with buying a new bow and arrows for it, the occasional quart of beer from the older kid that could get it, fishing gear, etc. I had about 3500 dollars.
I bought a 400 dollar car, (1975 Grand Prix LJ) and had plenty for insurance and expenses. I am glad I didn’t only carry 10% of my body weight!
Another irony. This place I grew up in is poor, really poor. Only a few families are the rich families and MOST of them are what you’d call solid middle class anywhere else. Welfare is though the roof there! My dad says every 3rd person at the grocery has a food stamp card. Etc.
In 2003 while we were living in PA which is what 17 years since that summer I took my wife and son up that mountain. Showed them where I shot guns, hunted, fished and yes scavenged copper wire.
I found the old building full of motors. There were two piles of motors there. One full of empty hulls the other of motors I never pulled the copper from. Once I got a car I found a better job and left the copper for the next hungry kid that wanted a car too, even told some buddies about it that said I was “so lucky” when I got my 400 dollar car.
You know what? The two piles looked just like they did in August of 1987 when I left that building for the last time and knew I would be getting my car. I don’t think anyone had even been in that building since that day from what I could see. I bet now it still looks that way just as I left it, only slightly different than when the coal company left it back in the 30s.
Perhaps more of our youth could do with a few heavy loads on their backs, a few old cars for their first car and a bit of learning that hard work is valued?
There is money sitting in that abandoned building, thousands of dollars for the taking. No one seems to care but yet they get their WIC and their EBT cards and Medicaid, Section 8 Housing and on and on.
Yep, life is what you make of it and sometimes carrying weight pays life long dividends.
Yeah, I’m an ex-scout and scoutmaster, so I’d say try to keep it under 30% of body weight of a boy but that is only in a pack that can distribute the weight to the hip. If it is just shoulder straps, then lower the weight.
As for contents, think of it as a surprise trip bag or a unplanned stuck away from home bag. I’d repeat the above but add a deck of cards, a book, extra socks, zip lock bags (for wet socks), plastic bags (to put inside wet shoes), a small cloth stuff bag to make a pillow, baby wipes, hand sanitizer, extra pair of gloves, comb/brush, toothbrush/toothpaste and pen/paper.
I prefer the crank flashlights for kids as they always leave them on and let the batteries go dead. Also the cranking gives them something to do. Even better if the flashlight will charge your phone, as that gives a child an extra purpose. In the first aid kit make sure there is both ibuprofen and acetaminophen if possible as kids get fevers and having both allows you to alternate. Also bug bite and poison ivy treatment stuff.
There is a difference in packing a bag across miles and across a parking lot.
Yeah, but I’ve been in some hospitals and day trips to the park where we ended up walking way more than we planned, so I agree it is an excessive worry, but it can avoid some whining in those rare circumstances. In any case I don’t see why the bag should be that heavy so the discussion is moot.
Here is how I see stuff in a bag like this.
If the bag is too heavy you can take things out of it, if you don’t have something you need, you can’t magically make it appear.
Jack,
I agree it’s hard to beat a glock, but recently I had the opportunity to run a Sig P320 (striker fired sig)….. and it has COMPLETELY changed my opinion of Sig Sauer. You should try one out if you have the opportunity.
I have a 239 in 40 S&W and absolutely love it!
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p239.aspx
Personally I hate Glocks but I admit I have NO GOOD REASON FOR THAT. It is just my opinion that they are ugly as shit and I do not like the way they fit my hand at all. I don’t like the way they point, the way they feel, etc.
But I know that is largely psychological on my end. I am also a 1911 guy and grew up shooting John Brownings masterpiece since I was 9 years old. The 1911 is like an extension of my hand at this point. Everything I pick up gets compared to it immediately.
The sig isn’t the same but it is close, it balances and feels a lot like one of my 45s. The glock feels like a ghetto brick. The glock is 10 times better than a cheap hi-point but there is a reason they call hi-points ghetto glocks, appearance wise they are not far off. They even have a similar feel though the hi-points are a LOT heavier.
In fact the one saving grace for a hi-point for defense is it makes an awesome impact weapon.
Glocks are ugly though, Check it out
Glock 17 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Glock_17C_cropped.jpg
Now Hi-Point JCP http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2010/09/sthipoint_100605c.jpg
The glock is a much better gun but damn ain’t they the ugly twins
Now Sig 239 http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P239-Nitron-detail-Hero.jpg
Ain’t she pretty and man she runs smooth too.
Everything in me wants to hate the glock but they just work too damn good for me to do so.
I used an H&K VP9 (striker fired) in a class recently, and I was extremely impressed. I took a Glock 19 to the class, but using the VP9, I found I was a notch or two more accurate with it than my Glock. For me, this has a lot to do with the trigger. I learned that the Glock triggers are only half-cocked when you rack the slide – this explains a lot in terms of why there’s still a long/heavy pull after you take up the slack in the trigger. Like everything, it depends on what works best for you. I’ll never get rid of all of my Glocks, but I’ve added one of these H&K VP9s to my collection, and it’s got me excited about pistol shooting again. BTW, I’m impressed with the Sigs – heavier for carry, but excellent build quality and great triggers on the P228/229s.
Prepper scenario: My main goal in fighting multiple people will be to get them all on one side of me so that I can limit their effective numbers. Constant movement will be required. If this can be accomplished the narrowness of an alley can work to my advantage. I carry a knife and tactical light. I will keep the knife concealed but ready as long as possible. I would use the light to disorient them and strike with the knife while attempting to get all four on one side. Once I get on the pen side of the alley I would make a run for it. I may die this day, but I will not give up.
About the wheat, Dr William Davis does a pretty great job describing wheats problems. Like how breading for bug resistance has increased the poison that hurts us and how modern wheat has many more cromozones than real wheat and while not GMO its not natural either its been crossed with grasses that could never have happened in nature. Further is skikes you blood sugar worse than table sugar.
If want to listen to an entertaining but truthful exolination I suggest trying the free trail at amazon and listening to the audio book wheat belly: http://www.amazon.com/Wheat-Belly-Lose-Weight-Health/dp/B005KUIQCE. Just don’t forget to cancel before they charge you!
Jack you should interview this doctor about wheat!
In addition to its use an herbicide, glyphosate is also used for crop desiccation (siccation) to increase the harvest yield[26] and, as a result of desiccation, to increase sucrose concentration in sugarcane before harvest.[27]
Sugarcane and more! Not just wheat… 🙁
All of my edc except the gun, ok.
I pull my knife and charge the two in front of me. The knife is held low and I slash at arms if they are in the way or go for the gut if I can. I pick the easiest looking target and use my free hand to push and off balance him.
My goal is to break through and run. I am not at this time interested in fighting but rather escape and survival.
If I can’t break through it is a fight to the death. My hope at that point would be to inflict enough damage to make them want to run away.
Something I added to my kids’ bags were LED glowsticks like these:
http://www.amazon.com/Dorcy-41-6407-Light-Stick-Batteries/dp/B0039PV1QU
Some come with a flashlight on the other end, most all of them have lanyards, and they’re cheap/light enough to have a couple in each bag without worrying about replacing batteries. They double as nightlights for the real young ones and who doesn’t like running around with mini light sabers?!
I am barely 5′ tall, female, and, well, not quite old enough to be Jack’s mom… but close. I didn’t learn to shoot until our kids did – I learned when my husband taught them. I’ve shot several of his “easy kick” rifles, and I have to say, the AR 9mm is truly a “no kick” rifle. An “easy kick” rifle for a well-built man is a brute for those of us with less upper body strength (this is not to say that some of my gun-toting lady friends cannot handle a fully decked out AR/AK… but many of us, yeah, not so strong in the upper body). So, for those of you guys who are trying to get your gal interested in learning to shoot a rifle, the 9 mm AR could be the ticket. I can put 50 rounds through it at a session without tiring, and I can barely shoot 5 rounds with some of the other rifles. I know some of it is my technique – anticipating the recoil – but if there is no recoil, so to speak, then I don’t anticipate it… I really can’t see me needing more fire power than 9mm. And, for me, with small hands and not being a “gun enthusiast” who is primarily looking for a tool, my 9mm Walther PPS and a 9mm rifle is really all I need. I don’t need or care to know about a lot of other guns. I don’t worry about having enough ammo of one caliber or another. Anyway, just one gal’s thoughts on the subject.
Kids’ Bags: First, I packed a bag to go to the hospital to have a baby and I have had bags packed for my kids ever since. GO to the park diaper bags, GO to the pool swimsuit, sunscreen, hat and towel canvas tote, GO to the emergency room with an asthma attack or broken collarbone day pack and GO to grandma’s for the weekend rolling suitcase. What started with a change of clothes, coloring book, glow stick and snack bar with juice box has transitioned into a minimalist earthquake in-the-middle-of-the-night pack with hard hat, dust mask, boots laced to the straps near a fire extinguisher (and headlamp) on the door (knob). Got three minutes more? Grab the serious GO bags and the animals and their carriers/bags, all packed and ready. The truck is the ultimate GO bag. The hardest thing is to keep outdoor rain/snow clothes in their bags (expensive to duplicate) … just buy too big a size from the second-hand store when they are little (right size the next year). I was a military brat in the cold war and was trained from an early age to always be ready for an adventure. Have GO bags for FUN as well as for the other stuff. Best ingredients: a roll of quarters for a vending machine, astronaut ice cream, beef jerky and something slightly forbidden.
“…something slightly forbidden.” Great idea!
Jack made some of his opinions on economic “collapse” and general SHTF fairly clear in this show – I had suspected this in recent months of shows, but he was quite clear in this show about it. What I heard overall is that disasters he foresees worth preparing for are more along the lines of storms, “disasters” measured in a few days, etc and that major, in your face impacts of things like economic collapse, etc just aren’t gonna happen. (in the case of economic collapse, it’s happening and it’s a “slow roll” over time that degrades our standard of living) I certainly agree these smaller situations happen at much higher frequency statistically and are more likely to occur to any of us, but I’m left with a couple of questions. If the truly bad scenarios many folks fear talk about are truly never gonna happen and the “disasters” that might really happen are no more significant than being inconvenienced for a few days without power or similar, does it really make sense to invest so much time and energy into prepping? I believe there are great general life positives in the “survival mindset” yes, but it’s almost confusing to hear such anti-situation talk on a podcast labeled “survivalpodcast”. I don’t think preparing for a weekend weather disaster is what brought most of us to such podcasts, at least initially. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with Jack’s views – rather, his strong statements around it in this show has made me second guess why I spend time and energy (and money) prepping at all. It’s just something that’s made me ponder, and I’m curious if other’s have any similar questions in their mind.
Perhaps I am not so clear?
I am not saying we won’t have an economic collapse, not at all. We will, we are and it will get worse and there are going to be some very harsh acute times along the way.
It just isn’t going to be the bullshit you see on Doomsday Preppers or read about in books like Patriots. It isn’t should you prep, it is HOW YOU SHOULD PREP, which I have been teaching since day one.
The probability index and the impact scale have an inverse relationship. The more people effected at one time by a disaster the LESS LIKELY you are to experience it. The longer the duration of being on your own, the less likely you are to experience.
There are 6 main areas of survival need
Food
Water
Shelter
Energy
Health and Sanitation
Securtiy
Most would prioritize it this way if I said prioritize in based on how long you can live without it,
Water
Food
Shelter
Health and Sanitation
Energy
Security
The right order is
Security goes First, (one half a second when you need it and don’t have it, you can be DEAD) The reason people don’t understand this is you can go decades with no need of it, it confuses people. It is also that many times others and other systems are providing it.
Second is Health and Sanitation, you can get sick and have plenty of food and water and still die. How long does it take in poor conditions to get sick? In many cases a few seconds of exposure. How long to get a wound infected? How long to get sick if you ingest contaminated water?
May be I need to do this level of a basics show today?
Jack’s practical approach is exactly why I came to become an MSB member. In my current profession, I am a business analyst and a project manager. In another encantation of me, I was the lead for a corporation’s IT disaster recovery program. We set up the program, tested the technical implementations, and roll played some of the scenarios. Zombie Apocalypse and Total Economic Collapse were not part of the scenarios. Fire, Flood, Natural Disasters common to that area, were. Also, we designed our system to be run remotely by others: given the book (tome) and the magic passwords, an outside contractor on retainer could fail the systems to the secondary data center (modern tech – now all automated). We figured “our people” would be home with their children (or, we joked, with our cats, for those of us who were single). In a true, unpredictable natural disaster, we expected zero people to be in the office. Anyway, just to give you my perspective. So I absolutely spend energy and money on prepping, and we struggled to do the debt free/90 days of savings thing (but did it!), and we’re in between homesteads right now, so I’m feeling antsy without chickens and gardens, and such, but I absolutely believe in prepping. And we will have a bunker at our new location, because voting with our feet caused us to leave earth quake country, but lead us to tornado country, but not because of the Zombies, ebola, or the muslims/japanese/germans/enemy of the moment. I am sure that we all prepare differently. For example, I know someone who had a veritable arsenal built up during good times. When he became unemployed for an extended period of time, he sold some of his “extra” firearms (for more than he bought them for) so that he could keep a roof over his family. I probably would have put the money in the bank instead of into firearms, but in the end, they proved as liquid as cash, and he made “interest” on them, too. He didn’t fight off the Zombies with those firearms, but his wife knows he did. Different styles, different needs. So don’t be disheartened. Being prepared is doing what is right for YOURSELF and YOUR loved ones. And – a good plan always comes up for periodic review and improvement. In our corporate case, this was every 6 months as we added new applications/programs to the system and retired old ones. At home, it’s more like once a year. And we don’t practice nearly enough. Anyway, hope my rambling was useful to you or someone. Cheers!
Re: Currency crisis
I’d generally have to agree with Jack on the dollar not collapsing and being worthless overnight. Any large economy has a lot of inertia, and it would likely take something apocalyptic (megavolcano or asteroid strike or multiple nuclear EMP strikes) to bring the entire economy to the complete halt necessary to make the dollar worth nothing in the immediate term.
One reason I feel that way… my wife described how a currency crisis affected her home country in the 90’s. Mongolia was (still is) a tiny economy compared to the US or even Argentina. Yet during that crisis while most people were spending the money as fast as they could and store shelves were chronically getting cleaned out, even in that tiny economy the money was still worth something. Now sure most people with a brain tried to spend it quickly to buy necessities or something tangible when possible and there was a booming business in black markets and trading for valued items (vodka being one), but people still worked their jobs in return for the local currency and getting paid in that currency was still better than getting nothing. Her description sounded remarkably similar to FerFAL’s description of Argentina’s currency crisis, at least economically speaking (Mongolia didn’t experience quite the same level of violent crime, though property crime was high). Given that a much smaller economy like Argentina and an even tinier economy like Mongolia didn’t have their currencies go to near zero during their crises, I expect a massive economy like the US is most likely to have its currency decline by a thousand small cuts over time rather than all at once. Even with any major event like a coordinated shift away from the dollar as reserve currency (either with the IMF SDR replacing it like Jim Rickards suggests is the elites’ plan, or a Russian-Chinese-Asian bloc of nations completing their departure from using the dollar for most of their trade), I still expect the dollar to be worth something. It would lose some value and I would prefer not to be holding a lot of dollars when it happens, but it would still have some value and utility.
– Nick
The other thing the followers of the gold faith should realize is that we have a shit ton of it.
Contrary to the conspiracy theories there is plenty of gold at Fort Knox. Despite ending the gold standard in 1971, the world’s largest economy which is the U.S. holds 8,133.5 tonnes of gold, representing 71.7 percent of reserves. That for the record is 2.4 times the next closest nation which is Germany with 3,387.1 tonnes.
Additionally the reason the central banks including the Fed hate silver is they also put their faith in gold. The central banks are HOARDING GOLD, they have plenty.
The nation needs an monetary system to function and if gold be it, we got it.
Does that mean that we can’t or won’t be absolutely SCREWED in a collapse, depression, recession, etc. of course not but those waiting for Weimer who think they are going to then buy Ohio with a few hundred ounces of silver will be waiting a long fing time, like until they are ready for 6 foot deep hole in the ground.
What people fail to understand if they follow the Yellow Faith is that just because we don’t officially back the dollar with gold doesn’t mean we don’t have the gold. This nation could go back to a gold standard and a national banking system based on it if it wanted to very swiftly.
You mentioned that most people have some sensitivity to gluten, which reminded me of an article I read earlier this year:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rosspomeroy/2014/05/06/are-you-really-gluten-intolerant-maybe-not/
This suggests that wheat sensitivity might not be from the gluten as much as some other stuff.
I’m totally with you on fermenting or soaking grains before consumption. I’m avoiding grains, but I’m trying to take this approach for my wife and kids. This year I caught a wild sourdough starter with some whole grain organic rye, and started making slow rise (fridge) no-knead bread. Everyone raves how awesome it is. I’m going to try soaking brown rice for a few days for them next.
It occurred to me that until recent clean lab environments, ALL bread was sourdough. It is not natural to maintain yeast without bacteria, as bacteria is everywhere and they seek to reach symbiosis together. If you take off the shelf yeast and add it to dough, and continue to use a piece of that dough as leavening for subsequent loaves of bread, it will slowly turn into sourdough starter as the naturally occurring bacteria begin to multiply in it.
Jack, your comment “in every single way measurable the .223/5.56 is superior ballistically to the 9mm. In every measurable way” isn’t correct.
The article below among others has shown the 9mm round out of an AR platform has much higher penetration rates (15″ vs. 8″ in this test) than the 5.56. So in addition to having a common caliber if penetration is something important to you the 9mm AR does outperform the .223/5.56 in a measurable way.
http://www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/9mm-vs-223/
Penetration is relative, the 22LR out penetrates many rounds but is not superior to them in any real way.
I have seen wounds including pass though wounds from 9mm and I have see wounds from the 223. I don’t want to be shot with either, but if I have to be shot, I will take the 9mm.
Very true and to your point about the 9mm not being better surprisingly the 9mm round weighs almost exactly what the 5.56 weighs. I think a box of 100 weighs within an ounce of each other. At one point before I saw some one do the comparison I assumed there might be a weight savings with the 9mm.
Upon reading the article it becomes clear that the 9mm bullet failed to expand as designed, and performed more like a fmj. The author even said it looked like it could be reloaded. This has been an issue with pistol HP ammo manufacturers have been trying to overcome for decades. The large HP cavities plug, the bullet doesn’t expand, then penetrates deeper than designed. The 223 round performed as designed, expanded, dumped its energy into the target, (which is more than 9mm to begin with) and stopped. Into a person the 9mm would likely have exited without doing nearly as much damage (if it failed to expand again). Firing 1 round each through a simulated wall and into “waxy medium” is hardly a scientific test, and better conclusions could be drawn had more rounds been fired.
What Jack said in the podcast is still true, in the context of a defensive carbine for a civilian, 223 is still better in every measurable way than 9mm (or 40s&w, 45acp, and 10mm) and 9mm from a carbine is better than 9mm from a pistol. If more penetration is better then a FMJ in any caliber is better than a HP, SP, or ballistic tip in that same caliber.
So, I carry a 9mm pistol because it is something I can handle, even though a higher caliber pistol might technically be better. The 9mm is also small enough for me to conceal if I need to. I carried a .22 for a long time until I was comfortable with a 9mm, because I did not want to carry something I was not proficient with. I got my 9mm in the same brand as my .22. In fact, I can barely tell the difference when racking them (I no longer carry or shoot the .22) So, odds are, I will actually carry and practice with my 9mm pistol. Does the same hold true for a rifle? If a .223 is too heavy, too kick-y, too whatever for my small frame/weak upper body, should I not become proficient with any rifle? Or is a 9mm AR a reasonable substitute in my particular situation? Open to opinions. Thanks, everyone (this is about as much “gun talk” as I’ve ever done in public!).
You should definantly become proficient with a rifle, but if an AR isn’t working for you due to weight, it’s probably time to look toward other rifle types. There isn’t going to be much weight difference, and no size difference, between a 9mm AR, and a similar 223 AR. And I don’t personally notice much difference in recoil between the 2. The 9mm is more controllable and does have less muzzle blast, but compensating for that is more form and technique than size and strength.
Checking weights on similar ARs in different chamberings, I found the the listed weight for 9mm, 223, 40s&w, and 6.8 spc to all be 7.1 lbs. The only chamberings that deviated from that was 458 socom (7.6lb) and 7.62×39 (6.8lb) all of those rifles were 16″ barrels and had identical furniture.
There are several smaller lighter rifle alternatives with very little recoil, which still make a good defensive rifle: a ruger mini-14 or mini-30, or a pistol caliber lever action carbine such as a Rossi 92 or marlin 1894, in 45 colt, 44 magnum, 357 magnum, or even 454 casull.
I’m partial to the 45 colt but for no valid reason other than I have a soft spot for it.
My recoil perception also needs prefaced by the other cartridge I have a soft spot for, the 375 H&H mag.
Thanks, Trecker111 (apparently I can’t reply to you, but I can reply to me). I will ask my husband about those. I’m sure he’d be happy to build me one, thinking that he has finally infused me with his love of firearms. And, I guess it is time to go for some better technique and maybe to do some upper body strength workouts. (I married a former USMC/Army Scout – he will laugh at me, but it will be a gentle laugh laced with love 😀 )
prepper scenario: I carry 6 knives all of which I can throw and mostly stick, a flashlight, multitool, handgun(cant use in this scenario) and cell phone. If time permits I would call 911 as I yell out “get back-don’t attack me” makes me clearly the victim to EMS and any witnesses.
You need to choose which side to move to 2 on one side 2 on the other go with your instincts draw knives and throw to distract/damage and run as fast as you can threw and past and cause damage as you go if necessary but flight is the primary tactic and damage is secondary and only to get out of there as the primary goal.
As I am running I am yelling for help and for the predators to stop attacking me. Predators want quiet and I am going to make as much noise as possible which causes confusion and gets witnesses to pay attention and identifies me as the victim to any witnesses. If I am throwing or using knives I am using deadly force and I need to establish me as the victim and I am running for my life because I am in fear for my life and many states have a duty to retreat and man am I retreating!
Generally who ever calls dispatch first is considered the victim and the need to survive physically is of prime importance and legally/morally is necessary but secondary and does you no good if you bleed to death in the ally.
Not very many people have my skills and knowledge-I am a law enforcement officer and many years of Martial Arts training and LEO defensive tactics training. Things to consider are can you run fast enough to get out of there? Are there any improvises weapons such as garbage cans/lids? Rocks or other items to pick up and throw? Do any of the predators have visible weapons-if so that easily makes this a deadly force situation. If I cant run is there a doorway that I can run to so the predators can only attack one at a time. These are all things that are split second decisions and your life may very well be dependent on the decisions you make.
The predator/prey timeline is so crucial-the quicker you recognize you are being preyed upon the more time you have to react and make decision which increase the likelihood that you will survive.
Hi, Dan ~ interested in your thoughts and ideas for what someone like me should do with this week’s scenario. I am probably you antithesis: closer to 60 than 40, female, slightly out of condition, never had any training other than the standard ccw courses (in two different states) (but I don’t have my weapon, anyway, in the scenario). If this is on a work night, I’m probably in heels and a business suit (skirt). I can’t imagine putting myself in this situation, but say it happens… Anyway, appreciate it if you have time to answer. If not, no worries. Thank you for your service.
Prepper Scenario: I’m probably a gonner in this situation. I don’t think pepper spray will be very effective, and I’m one small, well over 40 lady. As such, I work really diligently to avoid such situations. So I would put my phone on speaker and call 911 and start describing where I am and what the perpetrators looked like in a very loud voice. I’d also throw my purse at them (my DL has my PO Box on it, not my home address) less pepper spray and yell, “Just take the money and go!” If they didn’t take the money and run, I’d back up against a wall and pepper spray them when they got close enough. Sweeping motion at eyes. Pretty lame. I think I’m in pretty bad shape or dead in this scenario.
But – Even if I were armed, although I like to think that I would project the presence that I would indeed shoot, I think 6 of them might think they could still take their chances – can she hit all six of us? would she really even fire? she’s old – I bet she can’t even see without glasses… etc.
I think, in my case, the best defense is to avoid this sort of thing as much as possible. If my car broke down in an alley, I would stay inside it (I don’t make a habit of driving down allies). The scenario says I have my kit. My phone is always on the charger in the car – I’ve been in several car accidents where the phone was easily located because it was tethered to the charger (iPhone “locks” into the charger; don’t know about other phones). Anyway, I know I am digressing, because in the described scenario for this week, I’m not doing too well.
I went with my gut and listening to Jack’s voice it didn’t sound like they wanted my money or “stuff” but hey if they want my wallet I would toss it in one direction that wouldn’t be threatening to them and walk away quickly. I would never wear anything that I couldn’t fight in I know its a girl thing but you can dress fancy and still be functional the right shoes are essential! Being aware of your surroundings is so important but in this situation you got caught in a bad place and bad time and that does happen.
KM_HH6 there is one thing I don’t like about your response and that is a survivor mentality. If I am 60 not dressed right female I don’t care I am going to survive no matter what. Scream, act crazy, make noise, spray and pray, run, poke out eyeballs, tear testicles but as long as you’re breathing fight. Avoid the fight if you can at all cost but once its on do as much damage as quickly as you can as you run for your life. 4 on 1 are terrible odds and even a good warrior in his prime knows the odds are against him. If possible talk your way out but again my gut reaction from Jacks scenario is that these guys aren’t after your money and aren’t going to be de-escalated but do what you can before it becomes physical. Once it goes physical DO NOT EVER GIVE UP! Throw your shoes at them don’t let them take you to the ground and do what you have to and anything you need to survive.
RE: Monday prepper scenario
There was no mention of weapons, so I’ll act on the assumption that they at least have no weapons DRAWN. This being the case, I’d probably not initially use my carry knife INITIALLY. No sense escalating the situation until I have a fair suspicion that they intend more than just a serious ass-kicking and/or taking my stuff, and perhaps as important I don’t want to tip them off that I’m about to take action (pulling out my knife would likely do so, as would taking out a cellphone). If there is any reason to suspect use of lethal force though, I wouldn’t hesitate to use a knife as the situation goes forward.
All that being said, I’d try to do my best acting the oblivious victim and keep walking towards the men in front of me. When getting close I’d probably say something like “hey, what’s up?” or perhaps “got any weed I can buy?”, and when one STARTS to say something in response, I’d rush to his side opposite from where his buddy is. A quick strike followed by a trip, shove, or throw (whatever is feasible at the time) into his buddy’s direction, and then run like hell. Nothing drawn out or complicated (don’t want to give the other two more chance to close distance), just something to get me past them and get a head start. While running, try to find an open store or restaurant to dart into, if at all possible one with doors that look like they have that the lock-knob on the inside (like many fast food places and convenience stores have) so I can lock them out. If I can manage that, I’d use the bit of extra time to call or get someone else to call the police and maybe even take a photo or video of them on my cell through the glass. If they look like they’re going to try to break in (unlikely but possible if they’re sufficiently motivated or simply not bothered by bystanders) find either a room or office with a locking door or the back way out, depending on the layout of the place and the circumstances. Now in the event it looks like I can’t outrun them long enough to get to a public place or store/restaurant, I’d look for a place where only one or two can attack me at a time and proceed to fight for my life. If they followed me this far, I probably would be using my carry knife at this point. And as always, if I see an appropriate tool or item around to use as a weapon and maintain distance (like my instructor said, if there’s more than one, pick something… anything useful… up). Even with some training the odds would be against me, but I’d look for any opportunity to maintain distance and keep them from flanking me.
– Nick
Jack, Snopes seems to debunk the assertion that glyphosate is used on wheat just before harvest (http://www.snopes.com/food/tainted/roundupwheat.asp). Did you find sources that support it?
Actually Snopes ONLY disagrees with the why, they still say it is done. That it is sprayed pre harvest more to knock back the next generation of weeds rather than to fully dry the wheat.
Two things here….
1. If true does it matter? Sprayed is sprayed. What do you think they spray it in between the stalks?
2. Talk to a farmer, this is done with wheat, and rye, and corn and sorghum and they will tell you square, yea it kills the crop so it is dry when we harvest it.
As to sources, um, yea here is one, http://www.aganytime.com/Sorghum/Pages/Article.aspx?article=155
Here is a PDF directly from Monsanto that says exactly when and how to spray a crop pre harvest. Yes it focuses more on weed control but again if it is sprayed, does it matter why? http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf
Thanks, I came across that second link too. I spent some time in this rabbit hole… it seems indisputable that the practice has become common, but hard to tell if it is widespread.
And related to that, a Nov 17 post by Jodie Bruning on the original post (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten) is interesting. “This all helps explain why the permitted residues of glyphosate (Roundup) were permitted to increase by 600% in 2007/8…..I believe you will find these practices more commonly in temperate climate regions with higher (and possibly less predictable) rainfall. Warmer climates and more rainfall equals more fungicides, more insecticides and more herbicides as there is more overall growth…..I believe that the increased incidence of gut related diseases like celiac disease in these regions world wide mirrors heavier use of pesticides in these cereal growing regions. Known as the mysterious ‘Northern Latitude diseases’ – they follow the pattern of these higher rainfall temperate cereal growing regions.”
Jodie’s post is longish, and these snippets would be more meaningful in their full context.
Damn. I love my grains, but they’re becoming harder and harder to justify.
Oh, and Richard’s comment near Jodie’s is interesting too, referring to Jack’s second link:
“Here is the how to spray your wheat pre-harvest right off the Roundup website. They say it shouldn’t be used as a desiccant, but rather as a way to kill weeds just prior to harvest. But that is likely because the FDA or similar regulatory body hasn’t approved it for this use. This pdf clearly has a graph showing how the practice increases yield and uniformity of harvest so it’s with a bit of a wink and a nod that the desiccation wording is included.”
@Doug and for that and your other comments I award you the TSP Critical Thinker of the Week award.