Episode-1213- Listener Feedback for 9-24-13
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The kids in the airsoft story ended up getting a long term suspension till June! It is insane!
http://www.wavy.com/news/local/va-beach/has-zero-tolerance-gone-too-far
I grew up with guns, I was shooting BEFORE the age of 5, at 9 I asked for a 12 gauge for Xmas to learn how to duck hunt, guess what? I got one and went out the day after Xmas by myself hunting with a 12 gauge that was taller than me and NEVER had any problems!
My Grandpa took me to the deer stand when I was 2!!! I wish we would have known about hearing protection back then because my hearing isn’t great but that could be all the rock concerts and jam systems I have owned over the years that would rattle the windows in my truck LOL!
Once again Jack, Rick Perry has no power in Texas, after the civil war when the Union decided to appoint their own Governor, the state legislators and the Governor that that time took all the powers away from the Governor and gave them all the the Lt. Governor to keep the union from having any major power here, that’s why reconstruction didn’t have that much of an impact on Texas, we learned that in 7th grade Texas history and it hasn’t changed, I heard Mike Huckabee and Dan Patrick who is running for Lt. Gov. talking about it a couple of weeks ago on his radio show, we are the only State in the union with a Governor that really has no power!
It wouldn’t be the National Guard it would be the Texas State Guard and we already have one of those, G.W. Bush was a pilot for the Texas State Guard, Dan Rather lost his job because of it.
Okay well you have that wrong on all levels. The NG is controlled by the governor and the governor in Texas is “weak” compared to many other states but he certainly has power.
The Texas State Guard is a third state level force in addition to the guard and reserves, the state guard though has NO ARMOR and NO AIRCRAFT.
Technically the supreme commander of all armed forces is the president but that of course would not apply during secession.
The Reserves fall outside of the governors command and are considered a branch of the regular army/air force/etc. The National Guard troops fall under the command of the governor of their state but they can be “federalized” by the power of the president and sadly that is constitutional.
The state guard is unpaid and all volunteer, they have some vehicles and barracks and small arms but that is all. The average police department in a large city has more fire power then the Texas State Guard.
Lastly, George Bush Jr. was NEVER a member of the Texas State Guard other then his role as commander of it during his reign as governor in Texas. Bush was a member of the Texas Air National Guard. Rather lost his job over forged paper work connected to Bush not because Bush served in any branch.
You are usually solid on comments but this one is so wrong I wonder where you got this info from?
Sorry Brother, Texas Air National Guard , you are right!
One more thing, I wasn’t trying to stand up for any of the Bush clan….I think all politicians are crooks ….with the few exceptions..Ron Paul, his son Rand..Maybe? Ted Cruz? Maybe? we will see!
Suspension for a whole school year. Wow. I hope their parents have the means and wisdom to say “we will never deal with those people again”. And get them out of that place. If “suspension” means what I think it does (when I was in school it meant spending your time doing busywork in isolation) they’re not going to learn anything anyways. A shame they can’t legally find a job they can work for the next 9 months, or anything else other than “go sit in suspension for pay $$$ to go to a private school”.
Additional information about the stat pension story. Here is a web-page that you can look up your state’s unfunded liability data up to 2011.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/state-pension-funds-retirement-systems-unfunded-liabilities-obligations-data.html
You may need to search for the Morning Star report, “State of State Pension
Plans 2013” for more up-to-date data.
_CY
I’m with you on the prostitution deal, BUT, like George Carlin said why is it illegal to sell something that is perfectly legal to give away?
Giving someone an orgasm isn’t the worst thing in the world and the Government should stay the hell out of it, no matter what our morals tells us.
Besides when Washington D.C. was first created it was 90% pubs and brothels…look at the old maps, the Capital was surrounded by brothels, but, that was when they had to ride on horseback weeks to get there….so their wives never knew!
The more things change the more they stay the same…
Brother as I said, I agree with you,but . I think we both agree it’s a gray area…but when it comes to kids and filming them…I think those freaks should be lined up and shot in the back of the head! Just my opinion!
As for the other porn, other than sneaking a peak at Playboys when i was a kid, I have no idea and don’t want to know…but I have read porn is the biggest market on the internet, thank God I have a wife that loves me!!
Children are not adults, this doesn’t apply to my point below at all. You want to line em up and shoot em, hell I say people that do things like that to kids lining them up takes to long, just drop em where they stand.
The thing is it isn’t relevant to my point, child porn is and should be highly illegal.
My point was about adults, not even sure why you took this there.
Sorry Brother guess I took the or 14 point wrong, LOL!
@Shannon, give away vs free is a good point but what if I told you it was perfectly legal to pay people for sex even in our statist world. Seriously!
This is another place I find morally unacceptable but not my place to pass a law about.
Porno!
Get this, if I was a perv I could hire two people to do all sorts of sexual things to each other. Like just about anything the mind can imagine has been done. I can PAY THEM BOTH and it is all legal, while by the way I film it and sell it for more money.
But if one party pays another party for sex it is illegal?
But if a third party pays two people to have sex or 14 to all do so at once for that matter it is legal?
Now just what universe does that make sense in?
No one has ever given a successful answer to that question when I have asked it other than, “well porn should be illegal too” which I disagree with but at least the answer is consistent.
Pensions: my husband kept telling me he was sure his city retirement is 100% funded as they take out money from his checks (no choice in the matter) and the city adds to it into a group municipal retirement system (many cities in the state). Surely since they both contribute to the fund it is 100% funded. So I pulled out his last statement, it was like 87 or 90% funded, not bad and they were increasing that amount, but still not 100% as he and all his co-workers assumed. Interest past year was 10%, also good. But much of the statement we still have to learn what it mean, especially where that money is invested, and how safe are those investments.
I loved the grilling show yesterday Jack. I would love it if you would do another show on recipes, etc. Keep up the great work!
Great show today.
Just to get past the other stuff we were talking about here’s Mrs. Wranglerstar making farmers cheese!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI4Js35pZ68
Damn Jack just when I think I have seen the very best you have you do something like today. The words you wrote at 24 were just amazing.
What hit me hardest though were your comment on how people are on a spectrum and would evolve in time. It was clear that 90 percent of who you are was already there at 24 but that 10 percent you evolved in that last 20ish years are what really made you into who you are.
This does give me a lot of hope for many of the younger people in my extended family. Thanks for all you do, thanks for your service to our nation as a solider and more so as who you are now.
I know you don’t want to hear things like this but in my view you are a hero. I don’t care what you say about that not being true. My life is better because of you, because of what you have inspired me to do and reach for. If that isn’t a hero, well man, what is?
On the air soft gun issue, i knew someone who got charged with 3 counts Assault with a Deadly weapon for shooting a couple of friends with an air soft gun. It got pleaded down to one account of Assault with a Deadly Weapon which the prosecutor wanted him to do 3 months of jail time but ended only doing 3 months of community service.
That prosecutor should be impeached! The friends who must have pressed charges should be assaulted with a foot to the face!
Some days I really know my nation is dying.
Two things.
1. Yes our founders said that a slave was only counted as 3/5 of a person. I believe our founders new that slavery was a nessesary evil until our country got on its feet. The reason for the 3/5 rule was to limit the power of the southern states in the House. The founders hoped that this would work one to day ban slavery. However we all know how that ended up.
2. I think we should bring back 3/5 of a person rule for people that are on welfare! Maybe that would curtail some of the assclownary in D.C.
Yes, it was the South that wanted slaves to count 100% towards representation, without giving it to them, and the North wanted it to be 0% so they could have more power to curtail slavery. It was never a comment on the humanity of black people but of the apportioning of representatives. I’m afraid you were perpetuating a myth, Jack.
Also, the slavery discussed in the Bible was nothing like antebellum slavery. Slaves were more like indentured servants unless they were criminals or conquered peoples. Antebellum slavery wouldn’t have existed if they had followed Biblical prohibitions on being slave traders (buying and selling people), kidnapping, and killing slaves. I can provide references if you wish. Slavery in ancient Israel was much restrained by God’s law compared to their neighbors, such as it was forbidden to return runaway slaves. Also, don’t forget that is was Christians who started the abolitionist movements in England and the States. Also, not every thing that is ‘described’ in the Bible is what was ‘prescribed’. God giving law on how slaves should be treated doesn’t mean that slavery like we know it was endorsed but that it was a fact of life and rules were given to constrain evil. So, what were you trying to imply that ‘religious people’ should read their Bibles? Maybe you should re-read it.
Here’s a short article with some references: http://carm.org/slavery
Also, 1 Timothy 1:10 condemns slave trading among other things.
From your own reference,
“The Bible acknowledged the slave’s status as the property of the master”
And we are absolutely DONE right there. Slavery is slavery, the end over and out. This isn’t about your religion dude so don’t take it there if you don’t want it to be so. I don’t care what it says in 1 Timothy, really I don’t. Changing things today doesn’t change the past. Slavery is, period over.
One human being property of another is EVIL, if you do not see that fine but do not waste my time trying to say any form is okay or was okay or wasn’t really evil. Or any other BS.
Face it, your book ok’d slavery, you can figure our ways to accept that, understand why but you can’t make it not evil.
Oh this one is a gem too!
“The slave was required to participate in religious observances”
Wow just wow so not it is okay for me to own a man and force him to participate in my religion?
It is so sad that anyone would ever in anyway try to justify the ownership of one human by another. SAD, Fing SAD, you are sad man.
You are playing a game of equivocation. I explained clearly that the ‘slavery’ of the Bible was indentured servitude, or the equivalence of prison work gangs for criminals and conquered people. There was no ‘ownership’ of people. You did not do your homework and display your own ignorance and bias by your undisciplined reaction to correction. Don’t come off like an arrogant jerk like this. Admit it when you are wrong, wrong, wrong, especially when the facts are laid out as clearly as I laid them. We had a long, long history of indentured servitude in this country to allow people to emigrate to this country and pay off their debts before it was bastardized into the antebellum slavery. THAT previous system was more like what the Bible described.
…and another thing. I’m not one of those people you would want to conveniently dismiss as a ‘hater’. (Which is a cowardly way to dismiss critics.) I’m an MSB member and have been listening for years and a customer of the TSPMint as well. I’ve been chewing the meat and spitting out the bones of what you say for years but too often you belittle, patronize, become passive aggressive and sometimes attack Christian belief and then won’t stand behind what you say, (as this post of your demonstrates).
So, answer my questions. What were you trying to imply about the Bible? If you want to offer a verse, don’t just quote it out of context but exegete it and explain exactly how it supports your view. Don’t just resort to ad hominem arguments and slander as you did.
I am not hating on you and once again being a MSB member doesn’t NOT IN ANY WAY entitle anyone to have an opinion post it publicly and go unchallenged.
So here is my opinion of your opinion, it sucks. NO THE SLAVERY of the bible wasn’t different then what we would call modern slavery. There were slaves then that were born slaves, slaves taken captive, slaves sold from one house to another. They were property, period and it is damn fricken evil period. Capturing another nation doesn’t give you a right to enslave anyone, period.
Where there “indentured servants” in the bible times, yep and guess what we had that here in the colonies as well.
Slavery is evil, one form might allow a slave to earn freedom some day, one master might be “kind” and another harsh. But there is NO DIFFERENCE, one man owning another is wrong, any attempt to mitigate it with qualifications is simply what one does when one is in denial.
“Okay you think slavery is okay I guess as long as it is biblical. Fine.”
What a simple minded summary that is. You never actually asked me what I believed but just tried to slander me and put words in my mouth.
Why did I persist? Because of your bigotry and slander.
I just demolished your slander that I was in favor of people owning one another like antebellum slavery and that the Bible taught that. Most of that is under the Old Testament covenant and law but Christians are under a new covenant in Christ. Aristotle’s philosophy argued that slaves were inherently inferior but the New Testament stressed the equality of all people under God. “For there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for we are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3:28. This passage and others are the grounding behind the guarantee of inalienable rights in our U.S. Constitution, not Aristotle or other pagan sources. I know that Jefferson didn’t believe in this grounding since he was not a Christian but the grounding was there nevertheless and nowhere else.
Insidious, don’t play that stupid game too unless you are just a pandering obsequious sycophant of Jack. You see, Jack doesn’t care what anyone else thinks. He never asked me and he never answered my questions, as you can read for yourself. He was just basking in his bigotry.
“@Greg –
In response to your ‘sycophant’ comment above (sorry no reply button)..”
Man, I regret saying that about you. I’m sorry. This forum software sucks in being able to reply accurately.
“I read exactly one ‘inflammatory’ comment from Modern (‘..you are sad man’).”
More than that. He repeated
“Modern’s statements amount to: Slavery = Evil and is never ok.
Your response’s basically amount to: there are degrees of slavery, and some of them are condoned by the christian bible, therefore they are ok.”
Nope. Not at all. I was challenging his ignorant mischaracterization of what the Bible actually describes, prescribes, or allows. You don’t seem to get it either.
“As has been stated in many of this debates, stating that something is written in the christian bible, does not automatically present you with ‘the win’. Nor does it equal ‘absolute unassailable truth which can not be questioned’.
A statement that says: ‘the bible says x’, followed by an opinion that ‘therefore I believe x’ is fine. As a statement of opinion.”
I was never making that case. Not at all. I was correcting myths and lies about the actual content of what the Bible teaches and the slander that arose out of it.
“Stating ‘x happened in the past’ (assuming it is factual) is fine. But none of those things ‘refutes’ or ‘disproves’ Modern’s stated opinion that ‘Slavery is Evil’.
Nor does your statement of opinion or fact, REQUIRE another person to adopt, answer, or even ACKNOWLEDGE your statements.”
A famous NY congressman (can’t recall his name) said “Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but they are not entitled to their own facts.” Jack took a swipe at Christians by implying that the Bible supported antebellum type slavery. I called him on it. He doggedly defended that position and dug a bigger hole for himself in the same fashion as a liberal who would say that all spanking is child abuse.
“IMO neither you nor anyone else has a right to another persons time, or attention. To continue to badger and harass them with your opinion, when they have very clearly communicated that they have no interest in ‘discussion’ is at best rude.”
That’s your opinion. I was calling out Jack on his bigotry that he demonstrates quite often. If Jack could ever simply admit “I could be wrong!” and really mean it then I wouldn’t push back so hard. I just said that Jack is not interested in true discussion on this kind of topic (where he might be wrong).
“Again, IMO, we all have better things to do than troll/flame.”
Defending yourself is not trolling. I contribute a lot. I send article leads to Jack several times per week. I like much of what Jack says but this bigotry he has is beyond just expressing his opinion.
“I’m sure there are plenty of people, somewhere on the internet, that would be thrilled to have a conversation regarding the bibles thoughts on slavery. So, as that discussion hasn’t proven productive here..”
Jack started this with his swipe. I asked why and he never provided his motivations for that swipe but just responded with slander, then weak responses when I further challenged him. I further challenged his source for an objective moral grounding for his calling anything evil. If his moral grounding is merely subjective then why should anyone care what his personal moral judgment is? In most societies they feed their neighbors, in some societies they eat them. Does he have a preference? That is all that subjectivism get you. He’s made a moral claim that something is evil (I agree but for different reasons) so I ask him to make an argument for his position and not just a bald assertion. This is basic ordered thinking of premise, argument and conclusion. Why did you say that? What was your reasoning? Have you ever considered…? If Jack hadn’t launched into slandering me we could have had a more civilized conversation on this JUST like you so well suggested in your follow-up.
“So here is my opinion of your opinion, it sucks. NO THE SLAVERY of the bible wasn’t different then what we would call modern slavery. There were slaves then that were born slaves, slaves taken captive, slaves sold from one house to another. They were property, period and it is damn fricken evil period. Capturing another nation doesn’t give you a right to enslave anyone, period.”
Bald assertions. You are speaking out of ignorance of the Bible, the time period, the economic practices and more. I already showed you it was different.
1. It was voluntary except for war captives and criminals whose only other option in those days was starvation or execution. I quoted you the passage that indentured servants were released from their obligations after six years.
2. Slave trading was forbidden for the people of God, what pagans around them did is another matter.
3. Kidnapping people into slavery earned a death sentence.
4. Killing your slave earned a death sentence just like for anyone else.
5. Slaves had their own property and could leave their service much richer than when they came. Even in Rome, where 90% were slaves, mostly voluntary, the slaves could earn often more than free people and run their own businesses.
6. Israel was forbidden to return runaway slaves.
7. Their system of slavery was their way to provide for the poor who had no land and no wealth and keep them from starving. They did this in a voluntary system that was productive unlike our welfare system that takes money involuntarily from the producers to provide for those who don’t produce.
Now, tell me again how this is just like antebellum slavery? Silly me, you’re right just because you say so. I forgot.
“From your own reference,
“The Bible acknowledged the slave’s status as the property of the master”
And we are absolutely DONE right there. Slavery is slavery, the end over and out. ”
Oh, really. That’s the kind of reasoning you apply? Which team owns Peyton Manning this season? Yes, it is very much like that. Biblical ‘slavery’ was VOLUNTARY indentured servanthood when it operated by God’s law. Many slaves freely chose to commit themselves to be lifetime servants of their masters and were called bond servants because they never wanted to leave. What is evil in that? Isn’t that libertarian enough for you to allow people to make free choices like that?
“Oh this one is a gem too!
“The slave was required to participate in religious observances”
Wow just wow so not it is okay for me to own a man and force him to participate in my religion?”
Isn’t it also horrible that Peyton Manning has to stand there for the national anthem and be present for all team meetings, even those that may open with a prayer. HORRORS! Again, these people voluntarily chose to be indentured servants.
Yes, there were abuses of slaves just as men abuse every system, but the Bible condemns that. Once again, I say you are playing a game of equivocation. I’ll leave the judgment up to the other readers over who laid out a rational argument here with facts and not just bald assertions. You never did explain how you have any objective moral grounding to call anything evil anyway. I should have started with that objection but I don’t think you understand it.
Seriously Greg? Some people just don’t know when to let it go. Relax man! As for me I’m going to bed. 4am wake up call for me, first day of bow season in Ohio! Time to put meat on the table for my family!
Okay you think slavery is okay I guess as long as it is biblical. Fine.
@Greg –
Not sure why you’re getting so worked up about this..
A summary would be:
Greg – I think slavery is OK
Modern – I don’t
The End
😉
A more interesting question would be:
How would indentured servitude (debt slavery) work in a libertarian society?
Which of course always loops around to contractual enforcement and prohibited contracts.
In other words.. In a libertarian society are you free to sell yourself into slavery?
(If limits are placed on the contractual details.. we’re right back to laws and enforcement of laws)
@Greg –
In response to your ‘sycophant’ comment above (sorry no reply button)..
I read exactly one ‘inflammatory’ comment from Modern (‘..you are sad man’).
Modern’s statements amount to: Slavery = Evil and is never ok.
Your response’s basically amount to: there are degrees of slavery, and some of them are condoned by the christian bible, therefore they are ok.
As has been stated in many of this debates, stating that something is written in the christian bible, does not automatically present you with ‘the win’. Nor does it equal ‘absolute unassailable truth which can not be questioned’.
A statement that says: ‘the bible says x’, followed by an opinion that ‘therefore I believe x’ is fine. As a statement of opinion.
Stating ‘x happened in the past’ (assuming it is factual) is fine. But none of those things ‘refutes’ or ‘disproves’ Modern’s stated opinion that ‘Slavery is Evil’.
Nor does your statement of opinion or fact, REQUIRE another person to adopt, answer, or even ACKNOWLEDGE your statements.
IMO neither you nor anyone else has a right to another persons time, or attention. To continue to badger and harass them with your opinion, when they have very clearly communicated that they have no interest in ‘discussion’ is at best rude.
Again, IMO, we all have better things to do than troll/flame.
I’m sure there are plenty of people, somewhere on the internet, that would be thrilled to have a conversation regarding the bibles thoughts on slavery. So, as that discussion hasn’t proven productive here..
@Greg –
And you might want to check all of your biblical ‘facts’.. (for your other discussions).
Exodus 21:7 clearly states that when you sell your daughter into slavery.. she is not allowed to regain her freedom.
And obviously, the daughter (or son) you’re selling into slavery is not ‘voluntarily’ choosing to be sold into slavery.. so nice try with the ‘indentured servant’ interpretation.
Jack, you mentioned using spent grains from beer brewing as cattle feed in last Friday’s show. I brew a lot of beer myself and usually throw them away (I live in urban Los Angeles and didn’t think I had many other options). Does it make sense to work them into my raised garden bed? If not, what about dumping them in my compost bin?
Thanks.
Either is fine, I feed mine to the birds, they do the “composting” from there but when I didn’t have birds I just tossed them into the compost.
Great show as usual jack.
I think I did just blow a gasket hearing about the airsoft story. Anybody else need further evidence we are completely SOL as a nation?
On the airsoft article, I am wondering. How far can an airsoft pistol shoot. I tried to look it up and found 150ft – 180ft. The reason I ask is how did the boy shoot someone that was 10ft from the bus stop if his yard is 70 yards (210ft) away from the bus stop.
Just another spot in the story that doesn’t seem to add up.
You know some specialized airsoft guns with properly weighted pellets could do that, the gun in the video, NO WAY, NO HOW, NO CHANCE. Frankly if you were hit by any airsoft gun at 60 yards or more, you would barely know it.
Regarding airsoft – a few things:
#1 I wonder if I can have the principle fired for immoral behavior because he/she has porn/adult toys in their nightstand? Unbelievable…
#2 I have been playing airsoft with my son lately at airsoft fields. I have learned a lot about how long you WON’T survive a shootout with multiple attackers, even if they are bad shots.
#3 Had a run in w/ the Sheriff this weekend. We were playing under a nearby overpass and some train tracks. Someone called to report that we were shooting paintball at the bridge. The police showed up. It was a great opportunity to teach my son and his friend about putting weapons down when the police approach (officer said if those were up he would have drawn his weapon (realistic looking AK, SCAR, and FN P90). Also, great opportunity to demonstrate how yes sir, no sir, and thank you sir usually work out in your favor vs arguing. Had a great talk with the Sheriff, I offered to leave if was causing them problems, and let them examine the guns. Great time was had by all. We went back to playing and Sheriff went on his way!
God Bless Florida!
The “Year in History” segment, mentioning the Mongol conquest of China, made me remember something from a sci-fi book I read some time ago.
In the “Orion” series of novels by Ben Bova, the protagonist keeps getting sent to different points in history. Why, is for readers of the books. But at one point he ends up in the court of Kubilai Khan (IIRC), and there he has a discussion with the Chinese bureaucrat, I don’t recall his position, chancellor or something high up.
Essentially what he points out is how Ghengis Khan had created the Mongol Empire to stop the Mongol tribes from fighting each other. To stop that, they needed someone else to fight: so he chose *everyone* else. Point being, the entire purpose of the Mongol empire was to give the Mongols someone to fight. That was all they did.
Meanwhile, the Chinaman suggests, the actual running of the conquered lands fell to… the Chinese bureaucrats. The Mongols fought, but it was the Chinese culture that spread–even Kubilai, he said, was “more Chinese than Mongol now.”
The punchline, basically, was who the ‘true conquerors’ were. “The Mongols are the sword arm, the Chinese the brain.”
Of course, that was a SF novel, so it may have just been an idea that Bova toyed with. But it was an interesting take. And there might be an analogy or comparison to something in the present, but I haven’t thought it out yet.
The problem these days is that too many people don’t look at guns and knives as TOOLS. I have been carry both since I was 6-7 years old, shooting birds squirrels, and trapped animals. When I was a teenager, I used to hunt deer and elk on my way to school, and carry my knife with me all the time. I left my gun in my truck on school grounds, but can still remember teachers asking to borrow my knife when in class. They were never looked at as a threat, just what they were designed for. I am only 43 years old, and can’t believe how pathetic the system has become over the last 25 years…..America needs to wake up…its not the guns, its the pathetic perception being by the liberal media, and liberal toolbags.
@insidious.
Nice try, but you are looking at this with 21st century eyes and not knowing the full context of that culture and what these verses mean. This verse is basically saying that if a daughter is placed into indentured servanthood, she is not released from it in the same way. Minors never make these big decisions. Even in colonial times these kinds of decisions were made. This verse is intended for the protection of the girls in that the plan is not to just dump them out on the street in poverty when the normal term is over. Daughters need to be provided more in advance in a much more planned way than the sons.
Here’s some commentaries on that passage. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/21-7.htm
@Greg –
I’m not saying anything about the culture, or historical period. And ‘placed into indentured servanthood’?
To Quote:
‘When a man SELLS his daughter as a SLAVE, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not satisfy her MASTER..then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to SELL HER to a foreign people.’
ESV Exodus 21:7-8
The concern stated within the context is that a man would buy a female slave, from her parents, sexually use her, and then discard (sell) her when he tired of her.
I don’t really care for how a ‘commentator’ (a ‘true believer’) cares to rationalize the existence of the verses by referring to the necessity within a historical context.
This is the same argument as old covenant/new covenant.. basically an out so you can say ‘everything in the bible is true’ but when called on a specific horrific (to modern sensibilities) passage.. be able to rationalize how said verse no longer applies.
(perhaps we should discuss the NEW testaments instructions regarding head coverings?)
Now, none of these statements are due to my ‘bigotry’ towards Christians, there simply an attempt to call a spade a spade.
The bible contains the above verses. The intent seems to be to protect GIRLS who were SOLD into SLAVERY by their FATHERS from being discarded after being sexually used. A laudable goal.
But not something that needs to be ‘interpreted in its historical context’.
(always IMHO) =)
Well, all I can say is that I know God is good and you don’t believe that, so I know that there was good reasons behind this to protect women and I’ll read this in light of His goodness where you won’t. You are reading a lot into this that isn’t stated but the intent is to protect young girls in a different way than young boys who are sold into servanthood. Many Bibles do interpret that word as servants instead of slaves. It was an indentured status for the sons as it says but the status for girls can’t end there. The sexual abuse issue is dealt with many other places so it didn’t need to be addressed here.
Look you are trying to justify slavery, period the end, over and out. Got it? As for you think God is good and I don’t, you know what man, don’t speak on my behalf as to what I believe. You clearly don’t know what I believe and you clearly have a hard time with facts.
Fact being told by someone who isn’t a Christian that the slavery of the bible is wrong isn’t bigotry it is a difference of opinion. Most Christians by the way simply say, yes it was wrong, it should never have been done and in spite of my faith I can’t explain it, so I have to accept it led us to the right place in time. It is people like you that defend these things as being okay that make no sense to me.
Fact being a deist, which I am, doesn’t mean I don’t think God is good, it means I don’t believe your book is the word of God. Shocking? I mean isn’t that insulting of me to not believe what you do? No it isn’t and it isn’t me being a bigot and it isn’t insulting for me to say I don’t believe what you do. I in fact do believe God is good, in fact I believe God is perfect. As a deist I don’t have to explain why God ordered the death of children by the sword, destroyed all life except one family or gave out rules for slavery. If asked about that, I simply say God never did such a thing. We did it, because we are imperfect beings and such beings often do evil in the name of the creator and attribute many things to the creator that are not of the creator.
You believe what you believe and I don’t that is all fine and good and well. My opinion though remains for any man to own any other man as property is immoral and evil. Any attempt to justify it is something I consider contributing to perpetuating evil. For all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing and I will add to that quote for good men to remain silent while evil is justified.
This is not a Christian vs. non Christian debate, most Christians have no need and no desire to attempt to defend the slavery of the bible. I mean next you will try to justify stoning a disobedient son or killing the children of a city right? If so don’t bother.
@Greg –
(reply to your longer response.. no button)
I apologize as I missed the ‘misunderstanding’ that you were trying to ‘correct’.
I think (but I’m not Jack) that what Jack meant was that passages from the bible were used to ‘justify’ antebellum type slavery. Which is historical fact (‘cursed be Canaan’).
As for the source of morality.. is it intrinsic and internal, or is it ‘imposed’ and ‘taught’ by society? Should it be ‘adopted’ or ‘discovered’? Should it be personal?
In other words, are there things/actions that are ‘bad’ and others that are ‘good’?
Recognizing ‘good’ or ‘evil’ and stating that it is so.. is that enough? Or does your society have to agree with you?
The funny thing here is that Jack is making a concrete statement ‘slavery is evil, now, historically, and forever’.. and you’re accusing him of being ‘subjective’.
While you’re arguing for moral relativism (‘depending on the historical context..and your society.. slavery may be ok’) and claiming ‘Truth’. (the big ‘T’ kind) In other words arguing for a ‘subjective’ (based on time, circumstance) interpretation of truth.
@insidious. Man, I love that post you just made.
“I think (but I’m not Jack) that what Jack meant was that passages from the bible were used to ‘justify’ antebellum type slavery. Which is historical fact (‘cursed be Canaan’).”
There was some of that but Aristotle’s anthropology was driving that train. There is a great DVD called “The Great Civil War Debate” between two Presbyterian pastors and it was on CSPAN many times. It was quite eye opening in that the slavery issue was a whole lot more complicated than we ever were taught by anyone. There was plenty of guilt on both sides.
“As for the source of morality.. is it intrinsic and internal, or is it ‘imposed’ and ‘taught’ by society? Should it be ‘adopted’ or ‘discovered’? Should it be personal?
In other words, are there things/actions that are ‘bad’ and others that are ‘good’?”
Those are good questions. In short, is the act of rape in itself ‘evil’, for example. One question that bypasses a lot of the wiggle room is “Is it ever okay to molest a child/murder/steal/etc. simply for the fun of it? If so, when? That will determine if you recognize ‘objective’ evil, in the sense that the object itself is evil in all senses, in all time, and in all societies. I believe there is objective evil.
“Recognizing ‘good’ or ‘evil’ and stating that it is so.. is that enough? Or does your society have to agree with you?”
This is similar to Socrates’ Euthyphro’s dilemma. Is something good because God says so, or is it good of it’s own nature and God just tells us that? Well, neither in the Christian understanding. God’s own nature is good, for example he cannot lie. Things and actions are either good or evil if they conform to His nature.
“The funny thing here is that Jack is making a concrete statement ‘slavery is evil, now, historically, and forever’.. and you’re accusing him of being ‘subjective’.”
Nope. I’m asking if he’s has a cogent and consistent moral framework that allows an ‘objective’ moral claim. His assertion is concrete but probably muddy in its foundation. I argue that the only ‘ultimate’ ground for morality can rest on the nature of God. A bald assertion like the one you quote is like building a roof flat on the ground. You need to present arguments to support that roof but if the foundation is not cogent and sound the building/argument can’t stand.
“While you’re arguing for moral relativism (‘depending on the historical context..and your society.. slavery may be ok’) and claiming ‘Truth’. (the big ‘T’ kind) In other words arguing for a ‘subjective’ (based on time, circumstance) interpretation of truth.”
I don’t know how you got that idea. I must not have been clear. There are moral dilemmas like having to lie to Nazis to protect Jews, but you don’t lie just for the fun of it. Man is fallen and does terrible things all the time. God’s laws in these difficult verses hold men accountable for their evil and works to constrain it. There is a progressing nature to God’s revelation. The standards get progressively more clear but none of us can live them perfectly, we all sin, and that is the reason God came to be a man among us, Jesus, and pay our penalty for us who repent and put our trust in Him and not in our own self-righteousness. I had to flesh that out a bit. That’s what Christians are supposed to do.
“Look you are trying to justify slavery, period the end, over and out. Got it? As for you think God is good and I don’t, you know what man, don’t speak on my behalf as to what I believe. ”
Are you trying to speak on my behalf too? Aren’t you guilty of what you are condemning? You never did say if indentured servanthood is evil. That is what the Bible is describing and to say otherwise is ignorant. I clearly demonstrated that it wasn’t antebellum slavery and you are the one then that is ignoring facts in order to maintain your beliefs in an intolerant fashion, i.e. bigotry.
“Fact being told by someone who isn’t a Christian that the slavery of the bible is wrong isn’t bigotry it is a difference of opinion. Most Christians by the way simply say, yes it was wrong, it should never have been done and in spite of my faith I can’t explain it, so I have to accept it led us to the right place in time. It is people like you that defend these things as being okay that make no sense to me.”
I defend the truth and not try to prance around difficult subjects like many Christians who have not investigated these things. I defend myself as well when you slander and try to tell me what I believe as well. I’ll make arguments, not just bald assertions.
“Fact being a deist, which I am, doesn’t mean I don’t think God is good, it means I don’t believe your book is the word of God. Shocking? I mean isn’t that insulting of me to not believe what you do? No it isn’t and it isn’t me being a bigot and it isn’t insulting for me to say I don’t believe what you do. I in fact do believe God is good, in fact I believe God is perfect. As a deist I don’t have to explain why God ordered the death of children by the sword, destroyed all life except one family or gave out rules for slavery. If asked about that, I simply say God never did such a thing. We did it, because we are imperfect beings and such beings often do evil in the name of the creator and attribute many things to the creator that are not of the creator.”
How do you know that? Where do you get that information? Why would anyone believe this? All I hear is assertion, assertion, assertion and wishful thinking. Deism (in general, I’m not talking about your deism because you’ve never defined it) fell out of fashion two hundred years ago because it is logically flawed. It provides no foundation for knowledge, morality, or eternal purpose. Deism has an idol of a god who is not there, who doesn’t speak, doesn’t interact, doesn’t judge, doesn’t control anything. What evidence do you have for this god? Just denying our evidence doesn’t provide you any evidence. How do you have any objective moral grounding to call anything evil? I’ve asked you that repeatedly to no effect.
“You believe what you believe and I don’t that is all fine and good and well. My opinion though remains for any man to own any other man as property is immoral and evil. Any attempt to justify it is something I consider contributing to perpetuating evil. For all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing and I will add to that quote for good men to remain silent while evil is justified.”
So, for the Denver Broncos to own Peyton Manning as a quarterback is evil? Is he not an indentured servant of sorts? He has no freedom to quit at halftime and go play for the other team. You are intolerantly resistant to the facts I’ve presented. Do I need to copy the definition of a bigot here?
“This is not a Christian vs. non Christian debate, most Christians have no need and no desire to attempt to defend the slavery of the bible. I mean next you will try to justify stoning a disobedient son or killing the children of a city right? If so don’t bother.”
You’re right. Presenting reasoned arguments to you with references is hopeless. I really just want others to see how you do exactly what you accuse others of doing and never admit to being wrong. I repeat, I was defending the Bible against your slander and your misrepresentation and then you laid in with slander of your own. Disagree if you must, but if you have to misrepresent someone else’s views, or misrepresent the Bible then you win no points. In closing:
Mr. Spirko, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
And you are now done! Further what you said is meaningless and not worthy or a response. You ask for evidence when you have none of your own. You call Payton Manning a slave, you sound like a fool and I am done with your trolling and your belief that you have a right to tell others how to think and that people disagreeing with you are being slanderous by doing so. You are on moderated status. This thread has run its course and I don’t have the time or energy to deal with a zealot that thinks anything other than full on agreement with his religious view is slanderous bigotry.
Jack… I was trapped in the DVM for THREE HOURS listening to your show. I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when you said (To paraphrase…) “The king and the pope had a tryst that lasted for five years, and eventually made up”
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tryst
I think you meant tiff? I like your version better… 😉