Episode-2087- Listener Feedback for 9-18-17 — 20 Comments

  1. Hey Jack, I wanted to help John, new to law enforcement, out with his question about the Remington 870 POLICE MAGNUM, not model. I’ve been using the Police Magnum in some form or another for 27 years now. There is a noticeable difference in the Police Magnum and the majority of all of the other 870’s made, other than the Wingmasters, though there are still some small differences being mostly purpose and cosmetics.

    To start off, the Police Magnum is a Remington Custom Shop gun. It gets more hands on attention, higher quality control checks and is purpose built for a long and strenuous life including some important metal internal parts. Jack very well described the rough life that a duty shotgun goes through, though its not so much the lack of officers maintaining the shotguns as much as A LOT OF USE and sometimes BY A LOT OF PEOPLE in the case of a department issued shotgun. Let me tell you that the Police Magnum is a workhorse worth its weight in gold from personal experience and I’ve used both department issued and now carry a personal owned one which I built up and even ole Jack Spirko has held before.

    The department issued guns get treated like just about everything else that people share it seems, thrown in a trunk, used in wet environments and not maintained well by different individuals and that great photo from years ago, used like a stool (wow). Our department tried to save money about ten years ago and bought some of those 870 Tactical models to supplement the four Police Magnums that were being shared. Within just a few months they were constantly being taken out of service for repairs, cleaning and sometimes replacement (I have no idea what they called the finish, but it looked like a parkerized finish of some type, but it rusted even while stored in the equipment room which had never been humidity controlled other than being a room inside of an air conditioned building).

    Those shotguns almost immediately became a constant service problem as well as unreliable for the harsh requirements of police work. Me, being one of the officers that regularly carried a shotgun, stuck with the 30 plus year old Police Magnums. I can tell you that I’ve never had one fail at any function. They are truly built like tanks and you will get what you pay for ultimately if you plan on making law enforcement a career.

    Me and a couple of other officers from our department attended door breaching training for patrol officers at a school a few years ago. We carried our department issued 870 Police Magnums and at the school you will run quite a few rounds through the shotguns and use them in awkward angles an environments. Those Police Magnums never failed throughout the course as all of the other students were struggling to keep their shotguns up and running for the course. We even had to loan ours to some students who couldn’t get their guns to work correctly just so they could complete the course.

    Now you could build a quality duty shotgun using a Wingmaster like I did, but I would recommend against it an suggest that you find a Police Magnum instead because you will save money in the long run. I’ll give you an example. I built my personally owned 870 Wingmaster into a work of art tactical shotgun and it probably cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,500 when it was all said and done. I had been through a 24 hour shotgun course earlier in the year when I built it and I can say that it was eye opening even for someone who has carried a shotgun for a career as to what capabilities a patrol shotgun actually need to meet.

    If you just wanted a brand new 870 Police Magnum, then you should be able to pick one up for somewhere in the neighborhood of $750-$850 depending on where you shop. If you step up to some of the extras, like tritium sights and improved stocks like a Speedfeed youth stock for use with body armor, a Vangcomp barrel, saddles and single point slings, subdued Cerakote coatings and the tactical lights then you will end up somewhere near the $1,200 to $1,500 range.

    A friend of mine recently asked me to build him a shotgun just like mine. We went to the local GT Distributor in Austin and found a used 870 Police Magnum for $229. Yep $229.00. I’ve already told you how reliable our departments’ 30 plus year shotguns were and this one was looked less than ten years old, but someone had broken off the front bead sight. Since we were getting a used Vangcomp barrel, it didn’t matter to us at all. Also, since it already had all of the metal internals in the Police Magnum and all of the parkerized parts needed, we didn’t have to purchase all of that other stuff needed to get it patrol ready. I ended up being able to build his for less than $1,200 total and Jack can tell you it’s a work of art to look at, but I can tell you that it runs flawlessly.

    I will probably build some more of these shotguns in the future and I can say that I will be looking for a used Police Magnum to be my base shotgun build. The work itself is very easy and really you should know it anyhow if you plan on carrying a shotgun for work. You can pull up plenty of videos on Youtube to see how to replace the parts, upgrade and swap parts out and really no special tools needed. If anyone wants photos or my build spec’s, I can provide them either here, to Jack or on FB or something. And I’d be happy to help walk you through any questions that you might have personally John.

    Justin Case

    • Awesome feedback Justin, I added in some more paragraph breaks so it could be read without giving a person a headache. LOL

    • Agree with Justin Case. The Express models are fine for hunting, where the shot isn’t critical. I’d definitely consider upgrading to at least the Wingmaster model, or preferably the Police model for duty use. Used 870P’s are widely available. Cop shops like GT Distributors probably get a fairly steady flow of them. Mark at occasionally gets them too (but don’t have any presently).

  2. Love the gun / rifle build segments. I think it might be fun if this became a regular feature! I know it’s an extra hour of work for you in your show prep, but I enjoy it and I’m sure others do too!

    Maybe have a sub page for the build with links to each item so we can bookmark for future reference? Keep up the good work!

  3. Jerry Pournelle was one of my favorite Sci-fi authors. Jack, you MIGHT find the book “Lucifer’s Hammer” that he co-wrote with Larry Niven (another great Sci-Fi author) up your alley. It’s not as much Sci-fi as it is a disaster/survival story, and it was written way back in the 70’s before “prepper/survival fiction” became so popular. You may want to check the wiki page to see if it appeals to you.

  4. Jerry Pournelle, one of the first people to be kicked off of the internet, long before it was cool and edgy. Partially for revealing it existed to the average person, as it was still mostly a DoD project, and mostly for the fact that he wouldn’t stop talking about after the first time he was slapped down for it.!msg/alt.sys.pdp10/mBtkbu9ZlpI/N8LjmNM9qdIJ

    Seconding the suggestion of “Lucifer’s Hammer”, if only to see him set up a scenario where slavery is not only a valid option, but perhaps the most moral one of a limited set of bad options. Please note: I am not endorsing slavery and even in the book they acknowledge that future generations will likely condemn them for their choice.

    Also an interesting book of his (co-authored) is “Fallen Angels”. It’s a book where the premise is alot more interesting than the actual story. Environmentalism (AKA climate change) becomes the dominate force politically and is taken to it’s logical extreme. Long story, short: it winds up starting a new ice age, with all of the disastrous conquenses that would bring. And the unlikely protagonists of the story? A group of sci-fi fans.

    It’s an unusual book, to say the least. The authors called it a love letter to their fans and it’s filled with references and in-jokes. Mostly, they needed characters to explore the different scenarios they wanted to show and since litteraly almost any character would due, they picked ones they were intimately familiar with.

    One of the most fascinating things is that it was written in the early 90’s and seems to eerily predict how the (then) global warning movement would incorporate the worst aspects of organized religion and become a tool politians use to gain more power and control.

    Anyways, not the easiest read, but a interesting one if you skim the fan service sections and focus on the larger background story.

    • That actually reminded me of another co-authored book “Oath of Fealty”, which was written in the 80’s about a large corporate enclave/arcology where its workers/residents relinquish almost all sense of privacy (often eagerly) in exchange for the better conditions, jobs, and security offered in the corporate arcology. In fact, if I remember right the residents tended to apathetic and blaise’ (sp?) about privacy in their day-to-day lives. I didn’t first read it until a few years ago, but given that it was written before the Age of Facebook I thought it was rather prescient on the general future attitudes about privacy. Then you also had the notion of environmentalism being corrupted into a fanatical belief system, where individuals take violent action against the arcology largely because they ‘believe’ it’s very bad for the environment and planet, and not really due to any evidence supporting that claim.

  5. The great comments from Ford in TN about the TSP Zello community really hit me in the feelers. It’s hard to understate how many times the Zello community has positively impacted the lives of countless individuals since 2012. Thousands of hours of donated time, shared knowledge and experience, thousands of dollars of crowdfunding and many, many strong bonds have been built that will last a lifetime. Building a better life is sometimes hard, but it’s easier with the support of you and our fellow TSP listeners. Thanks again for inspiring the TSP Zello community Jack!!!

  6. Jack,

    As someone who followed your comments on the blog post about Versaland, I think you misrepresented the way in which you interacted with people there. You were being a dick, and you put your foot in your mouth by jumping in on this. Now you’re walking back your support b/c your ego took a hit. Sometimes it helps to shut up and listen.

    • Sorry you see it that way, as always if you don’t like what I do there is a solution, go seek your audio entertainment and education elsewhere.

      Personally I don’t feel my ego took a hit, I think it is sad the situation that Grant is in, and how he put himself in such a place.

      That said as always I feel the state is the primary enemy to permaculture and those in it of the purple breather persuasion that can’t see that are delusional.

      And I do believe that the Iron Law of Bureaucracy explains it perfectly. People that place faith in government, are people that are okay with telling others how to live, such people generally are of the persuasion to fill bureaucratic positions. Such people are MISERABLE in the permaculture movement exactly for the reason I gave, NO ONE IS IN CONTROL and it is a meritocracy, you do or you don’t and if you don’t but tell others what they should be doing, no one cares and there is no way to get what you want other than to prove it works.

      Again to me there are two separate issues in this particular case, the first is Grant’s financial obligations, those are between him and the land owner. That is the micro issue.

      The macro issue is the ability of the State to say, you can’t sell a fucking cup of worms, provide housing to a worker or let people fish in your pond for a fee. If anyone can’t see that such things are a problem, such people are part of that problem.

      If any of this makes me a dick in your view, again, that is fine. You can either look past it, or you can look elsewhere, I won’t change anything because you don’t like it. I’ve been told shit like that for 10 years now, not changing who I am and what I stand for is why I am where I am. So I don’t plan on altering that and I assure you my ego is fine.

      I wish you the best.

    • Since this topic was broached, Jack I think you misrepresented the ownership issue a bit as well. The lessor stated in the same FB thread that you referenced, and I quote “That’s right. He paid March 1 and owes next Oct. 15. Then final by Dec. 31.” This was per the terms of a mediated agreement by the lessor and lessee signed in January of this year. The mediation occurred after the lessor moved to terminate the lease and would not allow Grant to exercise his purchase option. It’s been conjectured the lessor wanted Versaland as centerpiece for their pet project SILT (sustainable Iowa land trust), which they deny. Grant stopped payment as protest and filed a breach of contract suit to evince purchase option agreement. The mediated settlement agreement was signed by both parties. Per the lessor’s own words, Grant has performed as required in the settlement by paying the first payment due on March. We will all see soon enough as the next is due October 15 and purchase balance due by end of year. I’m reading between the lines that this is a catch 22, and whatever creative financing was being arranged was dependent on the plan B of rezoning. Either way, a big mess, but as has been said before, if you are a pioneer trying to bootstrap something revolutionary, there isn’t likely to be a conventional path forward.


  7. I liked your segment on the gun build. As you were reading the letter I began thinking about what my pick would be. I think you nailed it. I had to laugh a little because the gun and caliber choices were the same as what came to mind for me.

    • A term coined by Larry Santoyo and made famous by our own Paul Wheaton. It is a generic term for the SJW and Drainbow Hippy contingent of Permaculture.

      People that are all about talk, saving the world, social justice and telling others how they should be doing things, but these people actually do very little. They like to roll around in the mud at times, etc. They generally say that they can’t do anything due to lack of access to the land which is the fault of white males and the patriarchy, even though many of them are white males.

      It is a mash up of the current SJW idiocy in our university system and permacultures socialist minded hippies.

      The funny thing is most purples love Larry Santoyo and don’t even know he is the source of the term. Highly informed intellectual type people you know, sigh.

  8. I cannot stop lol when you talk about a 3ft tall green alien with an ass on the head(around little after the 45 minutes in). There is a Japanese Manga character that fit the description….. Google search “King Nikochan”. LOL totally should add that to the rainbow farting unicorn.

  9. For questions about guns, don’t forget about the TSP Forum. Not instead of sending them in for the show (those segments are usually my favorite even when I don’t agree with everything) but as an additional resource. There are a number of guys that you will see that are very knowledgeable in their respective areas that are very active answering questions, helping work through problems and giving opinions from different perspectives. Machinisttx and Carl are a couple that come to mind.

  10. Jack, Played this podcast to my non-preparedness husband as his eyes were closed, but he was listening in his chair, he actually has been talking about it for weeks. He comes home and shares how he sees Jerry Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy at his work, in our city government, in our state government and even gave an example at the charity I help. Because of this, he’d like to hear more of these. So you hit it out of the park, I thought you’d like to know.