Hey Jack, Just a heads up. This show is Friday’s show.

Cheers,
Patrick

Oh the lemon aid saga goes on and on. In Portland Oregon last year & this year it’s this kind of BS. When I was 7/8 yrs old I would go to the local moter cycle shop and dry the outside bikes when it rained ( who would want to try a bike with a wet seat. If you didn’t try it you wouldn’t buy it was my thought) Then dust the inside bikes. ( As an adult I know the owner got a kick out of it) Worked on rainy days only. On sunny days would help weed moms garden she of course wouldn’t pay but I could have the extra squash . Then would load my wagon and go around door to door to sell it. I remember one guy answered the door and yelled at me 7/8 yrs old because I didn’t have licences. I didn’t even know what that was. He said he would sick the dogs on me and call the cops. I ran spilling my wagon. By the time I got home I was so scared. I really needed that money to buy food for my gerbils and sick squirls I would find and nurse back to health. I was so mad and wanted to protect my animals. I went back and got my squash out of his yard well what was left. I can say that experience did stiffel me a tad. But mostly was the birth of my so called bad attitude (as mom called it). Always question athority.

I don’t understand why these kids can’t run a kid based business with kid based guide lines if they wanted. Maybe they could get a special license for .25 -$1.00 maybe have the have a basic food handlers verbal question test to pass. questions like If you picked your nose is it ok to stir the lemonade with your hand. Just very simple stuff basic things. Not so they are regulated hard but so they can learn stuff they may other wise not learn. I would make it optional and then they can say well my stuff has a special sticker so you know it’s good. As I kid I would have loved that. It sure would have shut that guy up. Oh I could have hung that up on my wall. But over all what the “powers that be” are doing I feel is misuse of their power and such crap!

I am putting a rush on getting my ducks don’t even know if I wanted them but now have to have them cuz “They” are saying I can’t.

Can’t have a wood cook stove can’t raise a garden in the front yard kids can’t learn responsibility or make money can’t raise the live stock you want so when people make their own fuel woodgas solar wind biofuel what ever can’t do that either can’t can’t can’t . I feel that attitude just a boiling.

I have to say that Jack’s rant on the Lemonade-stand case cracked me up. Of course, it isn’t really funny.
What the lemonade was made with…right…and perhaps a bit of little kid saliva (from tasting). Yeah, if you don’t want to “risk” that…well don’t buy any.

Other than power-made local officials, I think there is something larger at play here–that is many people have been raised to resent accomplishment. These little girls are trying to EARN something. Even the innocent attempt to sell lemonade is a threat to people who worship at the altar of government.
“How dare these little girls think that they have the RIGHT to try and earn money by selling Lemonade. Not unless we say so.”

How about some simple judgement? Are we really relying on police and government that has such a total lack of judgement that REQUIRES them to close down a lemonade stand?

When I see a kid with a Lemonade stand, I am always a bit saddened, because I know that this sort of old-fashioned notion (earning money) is not long for this world in today’s society. Pretty soon, kids are going to say “What’s a lemonade stand”–thanks to people like these jerks.

I really like the Agri-True idea. One thing that bugs the hell out of me about the organic (and “Certified naturally grown”) movement is that they restrict things that I consider tolerable.

You are correct that if one of my animals gets sick, I’d be content to give an antibiotic- just like I would do for myself. If you toss a little fertilizer in for heavy feeders like corn how is that different from a synthetic vitamin at home. It is the same with my honeybees: there was a great article in Bee Culture a few months back where an entomologist pointed out that he really doesn’t ever want to medicate his hives, but he’s so sickened at his losses that he might appropriately treat them: he wants to keep them alive most of all.

The other thing is pressure treated wood. Steel posts are expensive and take a lot of energy to produce. Hedge posts are an option, but good straight ones are tricky to find in quantity. Certainly a grow bed or vegetable trellis with PT is not as safe, but why not the fence post that keeps the chickens and pigs in?

Any time I see a kid set up shop on the street I always buy may not always eat or drink for real (have had to fake a sip or two) but always buy. Sent in donation to the http://www.dinnergarden.com they look great. What a wonderful idea. I think that Oak Park lady should hook up with them. Also email their link to all on my list so they may donate or pass on for someone who needs seeds.

tnoutdoors9 is awesome. splc is not.

Jack-the listener feedback shows are so boring!!! I do not really care about what the listeners say or think.

I want to hear YOU, especially on economics/survival.

@Jack,

I don’t believe I’m failing to understand how a free market works at all. What I’m trying to point out to you, is that a free market REQUIRES that the consumer has an active role, and in this case, it seems that this active role requires the ability to make certain determinations about the product.

The things you’re talking about setting standards for are NOT apparent to the average consumer. The average consumer, in the act of consuming is not going to be able to determine whether or not a product had pesticides, herbicides, etc used on it. They won’t be able to determine if it is GMO or not GMO. The average consumer cannot tell if the producer is depleting the soil or not.

A consumer knows if their car breaks down, if a knife breaks under X-conditions, or if a Radio fails to perform its advertised function.

The point is that if you’re depending on the Consumer being an active participant (providing free market punishment) they have to be able to make these determinations. Being told by the AgriTrue website this is the case is NOT consumer control. It is trusting that the organization is providing accurate verification. That’s what they do today with the USDA.

In other words, the consumer is not an independent actor in this free market. You are assuming that a consumer of produce is going to have the means (time and money, and knowledge) to verify that a given producer is actually following the standard, not only at one point in time, but continually.

The individual consumer only helps regulate a free market when they have the power to know what is or isn’t right or wrong with a product. If you have two Radios, most people will be able to tell when one works poorly and the other doesn’t. There is no doubt in my mind that someone eating two tomatoes could tell the difference in taste and texture, which may very well be related to its growing process, but I highly doubt they can discern whether or not the soil it was grown in had natural amendments or not. Similarly, how many people can tell by eating a steak whether or not the cow was given antibiotics.

I’m not trying to nay-say your idea Jack. I LIKE your idea, but I think it is important to realize the limitations of what controls a Consumer can have knowing their capabilities to determine the differences between things that you are talking about setting standards for.

This isn’t about trusting a government source more than AgriTrue, but that’s just me. Many people worship that authority. The government PROMISES (different than delivers of course) that they have “strict controls, and inspectors, blah, blah, blah that insure that Organic standards are met.” You and I might know that’s not worth a hill of beans and the things they allow are disgusting.

You said” We set the Standard, the Market sets the result.” Yes, I get it–noble goal, and one I’d love to see achieved, but I’m trying to tell you that if your consumers cannot properly and independently make these determinations, they cannot properly function as a free market control. If you lose that, then the benefits of the free market are diminished. That’s what we have now–people that simply trust that the USDA is giving them something that’s safe, and healthy. They TRUST this because they have no means of making these determinations. They do not have labs and pesticide testing kits at their disposal.

The point is how a consumer can be an effective free market force if they lack the ability to determine what they are actually eating is what someone says it is. It still comes down to a matter of trust. Do I trust you more than the USDA? You bet your life I do, but that’s not the point. A free market system can’t be only about who you trust more.

The only free market control will come from whether or not the consumer is happy with what they are eating–but we (consumers) do not have the means to independently verify whether the tomato I ate was sprayed with pesticides or not.

Anyway, I’m not writing this because its fun–I’m trying to point out an issue that I think could be a problem. If you don’t think it is, and I’m blowing it out of proportion, then thanks for your time reading. Take it for what its worth to you.

@Jack,

I’m not sure how to respond to this. You’ve devoted a lot of time to my posts here and I appreciate that. You seem to be taking from my posts that I’m nay saying or telling you “It can’t be done,” but that’s not my goal at all, and I think it CAN be done. I just saw a particular issue, which I tried my best to describe.

Clearly you don’t agree that the issues I see are relevant, and maybe they aren’t. My focus on the fraud issue was based on the concern that the bad actions of one party can do an undue amount of damage to the credibility of the system. I think credibility is important to the success of your idea, so it just seemed to me protecting that was something worth discussing.

Anyway, as I said–I hope you have great success with this.
Maybe at a later date, I can contribute in a way you find more constructive.

@Jack,

Yes, my mistake. THRONG. All good here.

Everyone should get their ducks now, before these regs are enforced and word gets out. Just make sure that you have their shelter ready prior to purchase. Keep things on the down low and check out local breeders and chicken swaps. Don’t leave a paper trail!

Contrary to popular belief, Muscovies don’t need a pond, or even a kiddie pool. They just need a container deep enough to submerge their nostrils. They do like to guzzle water and slosh it around.

Most laws have the opposite effect of what they are passed to do, but for an agency to actively eradicate these fine animals under the guise of a treaty that was supposed to protect them is really fowled up!

Older used farm land can be used without issue after about 2-3 years. All the pesticides will be broken down by then. Replanted into grass will accelerate the breakdown. The best way is to test the soil in multiple locations to determine the level of pesticides. As for nutrients, a couple of years of proper grass growing will do wonders for rebuilding the soil. Even better is to set up cell grazing of livestock to accelerate the growth of the grass. Grazing helps inject organic matter into the soil because the grass is forced to sever its roots and rebuild them which naturally introduces organic matter into the soil. Another thing people don’t know is that grass injects 1/3 of its glucose production into the soil around its roots to feed the soil bacteria so they can break down the organic material in the soil to make more nutrients for the grass. This is the action that helps break down the chemicals in the soil.