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TomH
13 years ago

I really like the mobile view of the blog. Great job.

Aaron
Aaron
13 years ago

Yes! Iphone user here. Thank you for the mobile site. Makes it so much safer in the car.

Maineman
Maineman
13 years ago

Hell no!!! I will not give this messed up government one red cent. They obviously can not be trusted with money. I really dont understand why we are letting them get away with not cutting spending at a drastic rate… it’s what we have to do when we get into financial trouble. Time to take back our country!!

Ronnie
Ronnie
13 years ago

To the best of my knowledge, the only state you are allowed to OWN land is in Texas and this must be done by obtaining a allodial title. The land you ‘think’ you own if ‘own’ your home is NOT YOURS. It belongs to the state. You are renting it from them through your taxes. It’s like paying lot rent in a mobile home park. The city/state can and will tell you what you can and cannot do, as a family discovered when the city removed the basketball hoops from their driveways. IT IS NOT YOUR LAND. It belongs to King George III. For more info: http://www.libertyforlife.com/law/law-allodial_title.htm and here it is explained from one of my favorite people on the planet, Michael Badnarik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BU_PqLN-ls

Brandon
13 years ago

I love the Reduce America’s Debt Now Act for exactly the reason you pointed out – now all of the idiots who piss and moan (posturing) that taxes should be higher have no excuses!

bluprint
bluprint
13 years ago

About the money to “pay down debt” because of how fund accounting works they can easily (and will) use the additional contributions for the stated purpose and decrease the money that is usually allocated to service the debt by a corresponding amount.

In addition to your point about the govt just issuing new debt to replace the paid-off debt they will do the following:

Lets say they have 10,000 allocated to service debt as part of the regular budget. Then a contributor comes along and gives 10,000 to go toward that same budget item. They aren’t going to pay 20,000 toward the debt. Instead they will put the contributed funds toward paying the 10,000 then take the allocated 10k and reallocate it toward something else. Any contributions will effectively increase government spending in total by exactly that amount.

This is a huge scam.

Charles
Charles
13 years ago

1. I wouldn’t give them any money.
2. I think everyone should plant a garden like the lady in Oak Park. If you live in one of those home owners associations look to change the bylaws.

Oil Lady
Oil Lady
13 years ago

Jack, I am having a lot of trouble today loading your web site. Never had this kind of difficulty before. I crashed twice trying to post this comment.

The Oak Park Illinois contact list is as follows. Pay special attention to the names I have highlighted in BOLD. These bolded names include the Mayor Naftaly, the head code enforcment dude named Kevin Rulkowski who is pressing the charges against Julie Bass to the max, the lacky-henchman of Kevin Rulkowski (an underling code enforcer named Keven Jones) who lied lied lied lied lied in court aginst Julie Bass when he swore up and down that the code enforcement department told her not to put the garden in (she claims they did not; she claims they merely said “We’re not sure”). Have at it:

City of Oak Park
13600 Oak Park Boulevard
Oak Park, MI 48237
248-691-7400

Departments Phone

ACCOUNTING: 248.691.7490
Cece Tipton – Accounts Payable ctipton@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7497

Debbie Kyte – Payroll dkyte@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7497
Fax Number 248.691.7157

ASSESSING: 248.691.7550
Dean Bush – City Assessor dbush@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7552

Sona Grewal — sgrewal@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7550

Christine Cooper — ccooper@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7597
Fax Number 248.691.7157

CABLE OPERATIONS: 248.691.7538
Matthew T. Brandimarte – Cable/IT Supervisor
mbrandimarte@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7588

Jennifer Howard – Computer/Video Technician
jneal@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7594
Fax Number 248.691.7162

CITY CLERK’S OFFICE: 248.691.7544
Tonni Bartholomew – City Clerk
tbartholomew@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7541

Janet Cisneros — jcisneros@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7540
Fax Number 248.691.7167

CITY MANAGER: 248.691.7410

Rick Fox – City Manager
rfox@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7406

Diane Lemanski – Assistant to the City Manager
dlemanski@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7403

Sandra Moulton – Administrative Secretary
smoulton@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7402

Vacant – Ombudsman
rfox@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7404
Fax Number 248.691.7171

CITY COUNCIL: 248.691.7410

Mayor Gerald E. Naftaly
gnaftaly@att.net
248.691.7410

Mayor Pro Tem Michael M. Seligson
mmseligson@comcast.net
248.691.7410

Council Person Angela Diggs Jackson
adjack@comcast.net
248.691.7410

Council Person Paul Levine
paul4oakpark@yahoo.com
248.691.7410

Council Person Emile Duplessis
duplessis2@aol.com
248.691.7410
Fax Number 248.691.7171

Departments Phone

PUBLIC WORKS: 248.691.7497
Kevin Yee – Director
248.691.7497

Rocco Fortura – Deputy Director
248.691.7495

Scott Lemarbe – Foreman
248.691.7492

Gary Shemetaro – Foreman
248.691.7494

Debbie Kyte – Payroll
248.691.7497

Cece Tipton – Accounts Payable
248.691.7497
Fax Number 248.691.7168

Garage: 248.691.7496
Bob Barletta – Master Mechanic
248.691.7496

RECREATION: 248.691.7555
Roy Vultaggio – Director
248.691.7558

Scott Pratt – Deputy Director of Recreation
248.691.7559

Shawnie Stamper – Recreation Coordinator
248.691.7562

Cristin Spiller – Recreation Coordinator
248.691.7576

Tamara Finkler-Carter – Administrative Clerk
248.691.7567
Fax Number 248.691.7156

SENIOR DIVISION: 248.691.7577
Lynn Davey – Senior Center Coordinator
248.691.2357

Tonya Benge- Administrative Aid
248.691.7448
Clerical Aid 248.691.2358

General Senior Office 248.691.7575
Fax Number 248.691.2356

TECHNICAL PLANNING / SERVICES: 248.691.7450

Kevin Rulkowski-Director/City Planner krulkowski@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7450

Robert Barrett – Engineering Supervisor/Deputy Director of T & P 248.691.7580

Vicky Brooks – Office Coordinator
248.691.7463

Priscilla Laney – Administrative Clerk
248.691.7461

Isha Gillyard – Administrative Clerk
248.691.7462

Planning Division: 248.691.7450

Kevin Rulkowski – Director/City Planner
krulkowski@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7450

Building Division: 248.691.7450
Plumbing / Mechanical Inspector 248.691.7452
Rental Inspections 248.691.7450

Melissa LaPan – Code Assist / Animal Control
mdrake@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7460

Shawn Hairston – Code Assist / Animal Control
shairston@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7468

John Hines – Building Division Supervisor
jhines@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7450

Kevin Jones -Code Assist / Animal Control
kjones@ci.oak-park.mi.us
248.691.7457

Electrical Inspector 248.691.7459
Fax Number 248.691.7165
Engineering Division: 248.691.7580

Kevin Yee – City Engineer
248.691.7497

Robert Barrett – Engineering Supervisor/Deputy Director of T & P 248.691.7580

Jennifer Wilson – Engineering Tech
248.691.7582

David DeCoster – Engineering Tech
248.691.7465
Fax Number 248.691.7165

TREASURY: 248.691.7545
Kathleen Lindroth – Deputy Treasurer
248.691.7539

Amber Dawkins – Finance Clerk
248.691.7549

Nadene Dana – Finance Clerk
248.691.7547

Fax Number 248.691.7157
WATER: 248.691.7470
Steve Lukasik – Finance Clerk
248.691-7477

Tenesha Thomas – Finance Clerk
248.691.7470

Kevin Vandewalle – Meter Technician
248.691.7446

VACANT – Meter Technician 248.691.2353
Fax Number 248.691.7467

Oil Lady
Oil Lady
13 years ago

Oops! I made a typing error!

I accidentally typed “Illinois” in that post where I listed all the names and ph numbers and emails. But it’s REALLY Michigan.

Greg
Greg
13 years ago

Here’s that maggot’s contact info…
Bass’s pretrial is scheduled for July 26. On her blog, she has asked that people supportive of her show up to her court hearings and submit her story to as many news organizations as possible. You could also try contacting Kevin Rulkowski. He can be called at 248.691.7450 or emailed at krulkowski@ci.oak-park.mi.us.

Brian
Brian
13 years ago

248-691-7400

248-691-7410

Here are the phone numbers for the city gov.
Jack – post when we call to shut down the swithboard, I am in.

Ronnie
Ronnie
13 years ago

My email to the foodkiller assclown. sorry…my image probably won’t come thru but it’s cool.

Sir,

Why in the world would you stop anyone from growing FOOD? With contamination from GMO’s and imported Chinese food you should be encouraging the community to follow suit!!! Don’t you know this is the new trend? Are you from this country????

http://www.nextworldtv.com/videos/growing-food/eat-your-front-lawn.html

http://www.nextworldtv.com/videos/community/community-gardens-blossom.html

http://www.nextworldtv.com/videos/keeping-it-local/local-living-economy-bellingham-wa.html

http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/feedback-7-13-11/comment-page-1#comment-121471

Instead of being a hero for your community you now get the
assclown award.jpg

Get with the program.

With deep sincerity,
Veronica Deevers

roundabouts
roundabouts
13 years ago

No wont give any $ to government. I have tight times I got rid of my cell phone and cable. Did they get rid of theirs?

I read the article about the lady who gardened in her front yard they said the problem was because the plants she planted were not “common” I think everyone should plant tomtoes and such in their yards then it becomes common. I’d donate $50 to make that happen. This is such crap. How any government can take food off your table. How much power will people give them? This is beyond BS I am so mad I can’t even see straight. The only thing I knew to do was pass it on to everyone I know so all can respond.

I stopped relying on the word organic when I saw the word organic on a box of mac-n-cheese. How about use “natureculture” “naturepure” Argoclean Agropure Puregrow Classicculture Agroclassic I love comming up with new ideas like this. I get so high comming up with new plans. Just feeds the soul Would spend all day doing it but today is hubby’s bday so will have to come back to it.

roundabouts
roundabouts
13 years ago

ok one more Pellucidculture pellucid transparently clear in style or meaning pellucidly grown

Steph in Nova Scotia
Steph in Nova Scotia
13 years ago

Suggestion for the self certification concept: include a commenting system. So the public has a place to report cheaters. Great idea.

Patrick Hallene
Patrick Hallene
13 years ago

Here is that idiot in Michigan’s email address. My girlfriend and I are writing him now. You should too.
krulkowski@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Russell Davis
13 years ago

Was thinking about the Alternative term for something that is truly organic. Without using the internet, I came up with a few, everything I could think of has already been taken. HAHA.

A few of my favorites being: Truganic, Organiculture, Trunatural, and Agriganic … all already taken, oh well.

the best one that I can’t find already on the internet so far is …. Paleorganic (pay-lee-organic) …. Something with Paleo- meaning “old” or “ancient” Because the idea is that the food grow is like that grown for tens of thousands or years. Maybe grown is new tools, but the product is still the same.

Just a thought, maybe someone can take “Paleo” and do something better with it.

Thanks for another great show!

“Focus on being productive instead of busy.” – Timophy Ferriss

Jeff
Jeff
13 years ago
Reply to  Russell Davis

I was thinking TruGanic too but since its taken, how about RealGanic or FullGanic or AllGanic ?

Brian
Brian
13 years ago

Retru is my suggestion for the certification name. Nothing on google for it. Real True food is the way I was thinking of it, or Re true, i.e. retry true certicifaction. Once you get it done I will promote the hell out of it with both my farmer friends and at the local farmers market.

Patrick Smith
Patrick Smith
13 years ago

Doing my part to help the cause 🙂

http://www.oakpark-mi.com/city_directory/page04.asp

TECHNICAL PLANNING / SERVICES: 248.691.7450

Kevin Rulkowski-Director/City Planner 248.691.7450 krulkowski@ci.oak-park.mi.us (may want to remind him http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suitable )

Robert Barrett – Engineering Supervisor/Deputy Director of T & P 248.691.7580 rbarrett@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Rick Fox – City Manager 248.691.7406 rfox@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Diane Lemanski – Assistant to the City Manager 248.691.7403 dlemanski@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Vicky Brooks – Office Coordinator 248.691.7463 vbrooks@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Priscilla Laney – Administrative Clerk 248.691.7461 planey@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Isha Gillyard – Administrative Clerk 248.691.7462 Igillyard@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Feel free to let them know how you feel.

Cheers,
Patrick

roundabouts
roundabouts
13 years ago

Was wondering if there are any good writters out there that could write a form letter that could be emailed to Mi. We could pass that letter on to all we know and have people send it in. Maybe we could get it to go viral?

Does any one know what kind of support she is getting from her home town?

Patrick Smith
Patrick Smith
13 years ago
Reply to  roundabouts

Admittedly copy and pasted from someone else but here’s a start…

Hello Mr. Rulkowski and whoever else this may concern,

I would like to register my displeasure in how the city is handling the situation around Julie Bass’ garden.

Aside from the fact that this is Julie’s own property and her garden is in absolutely no way affecting any of her neighbors, it just doesn’t make sense to be against a vegetable garden. Would a tree in the front yard be okay? What about an apple tree? What about a fig shrub? A plant is a plant.

I commend Julie Bass for adopting a greener lifestyle and am outraged that she could be facing jail time, or any charges at all. Her behavior should be encouraged, not prosecuted. These gardens are healthy for her and the community. I request that you drop all charges and leave her and her family alone. I’m sure there are much, much better ways to spend your time funded on taxpayer dollars.

TomH
13 years ago

Phone smack, like a denial of service smack. Will it be an over load the phones kind of thing or a call a minute approach? I’ll wait to hear how you ring it in.

LvsChant
LvsChant
13 years ago

The city offices are all closed on Friday, Jack!!! Oil Lady has been trying to reach you to give information about this. Due to budget cuts, all city offices are closed each week on Friday. Perhaps a different day for the phone smack down would be a better choice.

Jackie Dana
13 years ago

Thanks Jack for the kind words about the website – glad you like it, and I hope your audience does as well!

To Oil Lady and anyone else having issues with the site: I’d be interested in hearing more about the problems. It could be server issues or there could be something with the design itself. If you have issues with the site you could either drop Jack a note or contact me through my website (gettingdirtydesigns.com) so I can look into it.

I totally want this site to ROCK on all browsers and on mobile devices, but sometimes it’s hard to troubleshoot everything from the outset.

bluprint
bluprint
13 years ago

Regarding the Tilapia:

Jack you reflect my feelings on this issue perfectly.

First, I should say I’m surprised at how right the article was, although still not enough emphasis was placed on the core issue:

“Also, farmed tilapia contains a less healthful mix of fatty acids because the fish are fed…”

It’s all about how they are fed. This point cannot be stressed enough. It’s not about the particular type of fish…

The same problem exists in beef. It’s well established that grass-fed and finished beef have a better (healthier and more resembling natural) Omega-6/3 ratio. Stuffing things full of corn and grains results in lower quality meat.

I am interested in starting an aquaponics setup. However, for anyone considering doing so, if you want to really improve over industrial food you need to understand this shortcoming. I intend to provide non-grain foods to the fish that more closely resemble natural diet, such as BSF larvae, maggots, plant material (like duckweed) and anything else I find along the way. Same goes for rabbits, chickens and any other livestock: Find things you can feed them to exclude conventional corn/grain from their diets.

I’m sure some other trade group (like say farm raised catfish) will pick up on this and point to how Tilapia is “bad for you”, then try and sell you their own corn-fed fish. Most people will buy it of course, and around and around we go…

Travis
13 years ago

Just going to put this out there about the alt to “organic” something along the lines of “nature endorsed” could have fun with the logo too.

Travis
13 years ago

Jack, youdon’t have to apologize for ranting on the Oak Park morons, that’s something worth while to rant about. I’ve been ranting about it to everybody I know for days and I’m sure I’ll continue for many more.

Wes
Wes
13 years ago

An idea for self-certification
Respectarianism: The culture of respect for our food.
• Feed you crops and livestock what nature intended
• No torturous conditions for livestock.
• No genetic engineering.
• No monoculture.
• ?

ComputerGuy
ComputerGuy
13 years ago

I e-mailed the @$$ Hat

DowTech
DowTech
13 years ago

Regarding talapia, a recent broadcast of Health Talk with Dr Ronald Hoffman, discussed the huge omega 3/6 imbalance resulting from the feed used in farming.
Another interesting factoid: a can of sardines packed in oil has the equivalent of 12 omega 3 capsules. I’m adding sardines to my prep (I like them!).

TomH
13 years ago
Reply to  DowTech

@dowtech, I agree about the sardines. I wait for my local coop to have a member appreciation week to get an extra discount and I buy them by the case. They store and can be used in recipes.

DowTech
DowTech
13 years ago

Oh — meant to add this: the link to that particular show.
http://www.wor710.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=5376352

Anji
Anji
13 years ago
Reply to  DowTech

Thanks for the link, that was a beauty. I got a lot out of it.

txmom
txmom
13 years ago

I can’t find the website right now, but I’ve been following this insanity past couple of weeks (Oak Park). There was one website that was posting phone numbers, emails etc. If I remember right Kevin, the city planner was no longer answering his phone, but others in the office where.
If you are on Facebook, like their page:
https://www.facebook.com/MargieBasaraba#!/pages/Oak-Park-Hates-Veggies/184553881597878?sk=info
Oak Park’s mayor says the lady’s lawyer is doing this to make him look bad in an election year.

scott
scott
13 years ago

Jack, great show. Quick clarification on comment regarding atrazine during the rice story; it is not gmo like LibertyLink or Roundup. Atrazine has actually been used for decades on non-gmo corn, gmo corn and even sweetcorn (most sweetcorn around our area has atrazine sprayed on it); it is actually one of the first chemical herbicides. Not saying it’s great stuff because it has it’s own issues as it often shows up in water supplies and has in the past been abused because it was cheap but it’s not a gmo like the others. Thanks Jack

T
T
13 years ago

Some name ideas:
“Nature-rated” or “fully nature-rated”
“Pure-loom”
I’d suggest “tastipur” but that appears to be a city in Bangladesh. 🙂

Ann E Ellis
Ann E Ellis
13 years ago

LOVE the paleorganic idea! Let the clowns in the gov’t try to put their spin on THAT!
Will have the cell phone ready for Friday!

Adjams
Adjams
13 years ago

My dictionary defines suitable with: right or appropriate for a particular person, purpose, or situation

Anji
Anji
13 years ago

About the tick-the-boxes idea:
I remember Eliot Coleman once saying something like, “This is really a sun-run system!” when he was describing his unheated glass houses…
The idea of a system being sun run always stuck with me since then.
Maybe someone can work with that. Loved the ‘paleo’ idea, too – think that’s a great way to group what will possibly be some very divergent ideas on farming practice.
…imagine trying to define monoculture. Is that 100 lettuces in a row? Is it half an acre of barley surrounded by a diverse hedgerow? Is it single species grazing? Whew!

trackback

[…] custom theme to get around some technical issues he had with his previous one). At the beginning of today’s podcast Jack announced the new website, and was very generous in his compliments on my work (and gave my […]

Derek
Derek
13 years ago

Here’s what I think about the “organic” label.

I’m not sure what it should be called, but I always felt there should be a 3rd party, free market label to the whole thing. As you said, a list of standards that should be maintained to be called “organic”.

What I’d really like to see is this. A 3rd party, free market business/website that puts products to the test. Kind of like a consumer reports for food and food products. A company that claims the new “organic” label would most assuredly be put to the test. If it gets a seal of approval, they could even put that on their packaging for further marketing. It wouldn’t be for just the new “organic” labels, but for any food product from any company.

Imagine if you could pull out your phone, and go to a mobile website of this company and look up various products while your’re at the store, or even a farmers market. Or imagine being able to scan the UPC code on your phone and it pulls up that products and shows you the 3rd party review, and a grade for the product based on it method in which it was produced.

Imagine if it gained such traction, that people started checking products and their grade under all sorts of categories. Like I said, those that do good could even put that on the packaging. If something like that really took off, it could even hurt a company for not being upfront about it’s product. People may even shop based on that grade or seal of approval.

Just my two cents on it.

G.R.
G.R.
13 years ago

Agri-True….. “The way food was meant to be.”…………

Oil Lady
Oil Lady
13 years ago

I like Paleorganic.

And he idea of an “organic seal of approval” has been batted around the natural foods industry for years now. I’m not sure what the holdp has been in trying to get such a seal of approval off the ground. But it’s high time it happened. And the proponents of TRUE organic food had better do it before a scheister front company for Big Agro does it for them.

CHRIS STANLEY
CHRIS STANLEY
13 years ago

I LOVE THE IDEA OF A NEW LABEL AND I THINK AGRITRUE IS A GOOD LABEL.

Rex
Rex
13 years ago

Hi Jack,

Here’s a word I just though of: nutribonic

Almost sounds like organic, but meaning “good nutrition”

Nutrition (also called nourishment or aliment) is the provision, to cells and organisms,
of the materials necessary (in the form of food) to support life.

bon (latin) – good

no hits on google at least

clayfarmer
clayfarmer
13 years ago

Oak Park, MI Planning and Technology Director Kevin Rulkowski’s email address is krulkowski@ci.oak-park.mi.us

Aaron
Aaron
13 years ago

I am responding to the Eric who is considering Nurse Anesthesia vs Nurse Practitioner. I am a Nurse Anesthetist and I think you are overestimating the actual annual income for both degrees, but you are not overestimating the CRNA salary as much. The best bang for the buck is CRNA. The CRNA has much more autonomy than the Nurse Practitioner or Clinical Nurse Specialist. Things to consider: How many years will you practice? How much debt do you have now? How much debt can you pay off before school starts?

Ben
Ben
13 years ago

Jack,
Glad to hear your comments on the guy trying to start his own business. Perfectly in sync with my own thoughts, but i’ve got a jump and already started a domain and wordpress. I sure as shit aint going to dump money into something that isnt a sure bet, and as this is my first business i figured the $70 for hosting for a year was plenty. I have some questions about your business and would like to get in touch with you.. shoot me an email or check out the site. Thanks,
Ben

CPH
CPH
13 years ago

For an alternate to the organic label:
Is ‘Nature Crafted’ taken?
Allow nature to do its job with a boost here and there with compost, hugelkultur, providing companions to attract predators, etc., but no chemicals.

clayfarmer
clayfarmer
13 years ago
BUB
BUB
13 years ago

Looks like Oak Park dropped the charges (for now).
http://oakparkhatesveggies.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/short-but-not-so-sweet/

Adam
Adam
13 years ago

I like Paul Wheaton’s idea of having more of a ranking system for food growers. Such as maybe you have:

Plants (I wouldn’t say use permaculture because by answering the following you are going to have to do permaculture, or else you just aren’t going to be able to meet these requirements)

No pesticides
No herbicides
No irrigation
No fertilizer
Soil is containment free (no growing in fertilize soil from a previous year or with heavy doses of toxic metals in soil)

Animals
Allowed to roam in a padic system
Killed in a humane manner
No steroids
No antibiotics
Fed all natural products with no pesticides or herbicides
Fed 100% off the crops raised on the farm
Fed 100% natural diet to the animal
No bacterial outbreaks

If they are half way there then they get a 5 rating. If they meet all the criteria then they get a 10.

All you need is to have a public option on the site where people can comment on the grower and maybe two bad strikes and you lose your rating. People can add a grower but the grower must fill out the check boxes. They can even leave a description, logos and pictures. Then you could provide them stickers for a fee to label their products and a link to the site. Its marketing for them and they market the web site.

I would love to work on this project if you need a database or web site let me know. I’m a database architect so that would be right up my alley.

Adam
Adam
13 years ago

@Jack –
The Paul Wheaton comment was less to do with Paddocks and more to do with a ranking system. That is a big problem with the FDA organic rating, its all or nothing. It really doesn’t tell me how one organic grower stacks up to another. I have no easy way to really find out their growing practices. I also do not have a way to look up the farm in the store because most times they aren’t identified on the package. That to me is the market need.

I want to go to the store, rank the produce or meat and be able to quickly access their growing practices, kind of like I can do at the farmers market or when I buy a side of beef. I think a scale also gives the grower an incentive to get better and identifies areas to improve. To a consumer a scale allows comparison from one grower is to another.

I think you are dead on with the categories. In no way was my list complete, it was more a poor attempt to highlight the scale because I see that very important. Maybe you have a fertilizer category, if you use blood and bone meal, chop and drop, or no fertilizer than that counts as a 10. If you dump chemical fertilizers then you get a 0 for that category. If you use steer manure that from a feedlot that’s a 5. Anyways, the category totals roll up to a main total. This is what the producer can put on their package for that type of item say plant and a different one for animal. Then you simplify it for the consumer and the producer has to run through a 5 to 10 minute check list.

To me monoculuture isn’t super important because more power to you if you are going to have 20 acres of corn and use blood and bone meal, no pesticides and no GMO.

With the paddock system and rabbits versus chickens, I think that would be an animal quality of life category. How happy is that animal in its life. Happiest or 10 would be its natural environment. Maybe a 9 is caged for rabbits or maybe its a 10, you can tell I don’t have rabbits yet 🙂 With chickens a paddock system might be a 9, free range might be a 10, chicken factory would be a 0, caged would be a 2, chicken tractor might be a 6, etc… I’m just making this all up and stealing some of Paul’s ideas on this one, but trying to show a scale 😉

There is an app for the Iphone called Good Guide that does this thing for products like toilet bowl cleaner that you buy.

Adam
Adam
13 years ago

Subjective doesn’t seem all that bad if you have consistent criteria around the decision and clearly state why a 10 is a 10 and a 8 is an 8. With the steer manure you might have traces of Round Up in it, learned that one from you 🙂 therefore, it might go down on the list. Or maybe, do you test your natural fertilizers if so you get a plus 1 or 2 on the scale.

I think you just stated the case why commercial fertilizer would be down the scale. So, if you have a 1 for then you state this is the reason why. Someone can I don’t agree but they know why the rating is what it is.

I have never raised rabbits which is why I throw out the idea, other members who have would have to add a better ranking. That is why your idea of opening it to the community is great. People should vote on the rankings. To me a 10 might be almost impossible to make in some categories. I have a ton of rabbits roaming around here and they are free range. So, if I caught a few and took them to a farmers market is that better than a cage? Would there be a premium or is it no big deal? So, my thought is quality of life being a cage versus roaming around seems a step down. Now, you can easily tell, I have never raised rabbits, so I would defer to people that have as long as they give me a reason why. Therefore, next to the rankings would be a description of why a cage is a 10. This would also educate people and explain why its a 10 and allow for debate. Its subjective, but if you are consistent, all I can say well I don’t believe in that so I will ignore that one part of the scale. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, what we need is a way to provide consistent data to the market. Plus, nothing says rankings can’t be revisited every year or so.

I can’t tell if you are aiming at taking scaling system apart or picking my ratings apart. Because I’m just throwing out ideas and numbers to represent a scale system. You are more an expert on this than I because I’m just new to it thanks to you. Therefore, experience people would flush out the ratings and criteria. Its a wealth of information that consumers just don’t have today.

I think the scale gives room for improvement in areas and defines why there is a premium on prices.

Also, I don’t see how though just a simple “Natural” certification gets away from subjectivity. You still have to internally rank, you just aren’t exposing a yes or no scale. Hell the FDA is full of that, just push give them more money they give you a cool sticker.

Adam
Adam
13 years ago

I guess the other thing I would say is maybe step back from the details a bit and what is the market need? I have an idea in my head and am trying to kind of provide a system and you have an idea in your head.

My thoughts are:
The business case is the market is not served by the organic label today.

Why? Because non-natural methods are considered to be organic such as GMO, animal mistreatment or land destroying practices are still acceptable.

The FDA\USDA places too much burden on small farms practicing natural practices to register.

The Organic rating is not specific enough.

Consumers do not fully understand what the organic label means.

Consumers do not fully understand good farming practices.

There is no central place that I can find out about local farmers in my area and what they offer.

How do you solve and market a solution:
A solution that farmers will want to partake in, they need a benefit. How do you deliver value to the farmer he is the primary customer. Primary because without any farmers participating the plan is DOA.
A solution that reaches consumers the secondary customer.
A solution that will educate consumers.

My solution is a general ranking label that can be placed on the farmers products. On the label is a number with a URL for more information on this producer. It is a public web based solution that farmers can freely join with no or little cost. Consumers can use the labels to learn more about the rankings and the farmers themselves with access to the Internet through a variety of medium. The solution can be monetized with ads for certain farms or through selling the labeling. Verification is left up to the consumer the ability to leave ratings themselves on the site. Kind of like those movie rating sites.

TomH
13 years ago

I’m thinking that what is missing from the food system is transparency and a standard method of documentation or presentation or format which the consumer can digest the information and feel informed. I’m not sure another restriction list is what is needed just have the farming practice visible and known. The consumer customer will choose what they want.
Hopefully the farm that is upfront and honest wins. The big thing is people have to pay attention and make the food system a priority for everyone to win. Good old-fasion traditional high quality food that kids can grow strong and healthy on and the next generation and the next.

Adam
Adam
13 years ago
Reply to  TomH

100% agree. That’s the problem with the FDA its a false sense of security because the companies hide behind it saying yep we are good because they approve us.

txmom
txmom
13 years ago

Transparency, couldn’t anyone growing good food add a QR label to their package, which when scanned tells how it was grown? Doable now?

TomH
13 years ago

@txmom there could be an app for that, so people can get the low down on the farm and food at the grocery store or farmers market stand. Just scan a farmer’s tag and the information would present itself. We’ve got to leverage the wide spread technology to disperse information at the point of sale if we want to promote good safe healthy traditional food.

Adam
Adam
13 years ago

I understand where you are now. From the show it sounded like you had a set of criteria and if you met them here was your new label, which is pretty much the FDA/USDA way. My proposal was really based around that idea and opening it up. I agree that the transparency model alone is a huge improvement. I fully agree that money is the key vote no need to sell here.

I guess the question I have is why is this not currently in the market. Why is produce and meat not labeled with information to the farm? I guess fruit because its not sold in packages but they have those sticky labels already.

The other question how to present that quickly to a mother that has 3 kids with her while running through the isle’s of Safeway. Would she take time to scan the label and would she have a smart phone?

My thoughts on the label was I was trying to incentivise the farmer as a way to charge a premium based on the label, but maybe that is the problem with the “Organic” label today. I was also trying to give the consumer a reason to click through to the site. You are right that could be more headache than helpful.

Either way, this is a good idea, don’t let it die you have the network to reach out to farmers across the country. That is a huge benefit.

Britni @ Our Eventual Homestead

Jack,
You always say this community is in sync and you are right!
I was just getting ready to write you about my Roth 401k not offering a cash option and you addressed it today.
I just started my own blog, have been doing tons of research (including jackspirko.com) and got to hear your great advice today on that subject!
Thanks for the helpful info before I even had to ask 🙂

John Kitsteiner
13 years ago

Jack – I am very excited about the “Beyond Organic” (as Joel Salatin calls it) labeling system. I think it is a GREAT idea, and I hope you run it to ground. I would be very interested in assisting in any way possible with this. This feels like the start of a new “Slow Food” Movement, and I want to be in at the ground floor! 🙂
Doc K

Rottenclam
Rottenclam
13 years ago

I just wanted to weigh in with my suggestion for a name that competed with “organic”.

Because all of this comes from Jack and the extended TSP community, I thought that the name “Ant-Minded” seemed appropriate. Crops grown or animals raised in an “Ant-Minded” manner will need to adhere to the following tenents:

• Commercially raised crops and Livestock are fed flora and fauna that has not been chemically or artificially enhanced in any way by Man
• Free-range conditions for fauna are required, and flora must originate from either heirloom or hybrid seeds
• Genetic engineering is prohibited (though selective husbandry and cross-pollination is allowed)
• The farmer / rancher may only culture or mix other elements of flora and fauna from its native state to assist in his or her yields (i.e. – All chemically produced and/or enhanced fertilizers and pesticides are forbidden)

Wrayth
Wrayth
13 years ago

Hi, Jack thanks for the show and all you do. for the New label I think “naturally grown” is a good one. Simple easy and to the point.

thanks again.

Daniel in UT
Daniel in UT
13 years ago
Reply to  Wrayth

Nature = Natural = Wholistic = Simple = I like “naturally grown”

Daniel in UT
Daniel in UT
13 years ago

My input is that the new organic name should include the concept of being wholistic, this comes from studying David Holmgren’s expert work. He more or less attributes the unsustainabillity of modern agriculture to a lack of wholistic thinking…

Ben Shideler
Ben Shideler
13 years ago

how about
paleo-steading or agri-steading just to rub it into the dervaes noses.

Ben Shideler
Ben Shideler
13 years ago

paleocolture came to me in my sleep

Ben Shideler
Ben Shideler
13 years ago

paleoculture came to me in my sleep

Ben Shideler
Ben Shideler
13 years ago

i like the concept of a survey vs a point system. just need to ensure that some of the survey questions are open ended to allow for the producer to describe their system to the consumer.

one of the issues with a point system would be similar to the LEED system with buildings. designers will design for points and you dont necessarily get the most sustainable building that way.

Adam Rink
Adam Rink
13 years ago
Reply to  Ben Shideler

@Ben – The LEED system comparison is interesting. What I was aiming for was a way to provide a value to the farmer to want to sign up. A monetary incentive for improving their practices that they can measure. My company develops software for the construction industry. When customers and potential employees come to our building is we give them a tour and explain to them everything about our Gold certified LEED building. We use it as a selling point. It is a flawed rating like most are, but it still is a measuring stick that has value to organizations and consumers. It is also something quick to say that sparks interest where the advantages of the building can then be explained like capturing rainwater from the roof into swales.

In my mind, and I could be wrong about this, but I see most consumers looking for a quick way to compare products on healthy concerns. That is what the word organic does and that is why it has caught on. Most people have no idea what organic entails, just its a “healthier” food choice so they pay a premium.

I know everyone in this community would sit in the store and scan labels with their smart phones to better educate themselves on a survey type system, I just wonder if that would translate to the soccer mom. I also wonder if it would translate to me if I had my 11 month year old with me and my 7 year old. I probably would do it when I got home and throw away lots of food 🙂 Is the market goal for people like those in this community or reaching the masses in the grocery stores?

The other question I had, is some family farms have web sites with all this information already. That’s how I buy beef, I look up farms near me online and read about their practices. So my question is why is most packaging in the store is bland with no farm labels or links to more information? Is the idea of a label dead in the water because the retailers won’t have them? Which leaves this then just labels for farmers markets where the same info can be gotten by talking to the farmer. So, the web site really just leaves a way to find and read up on farmers in your area, which is a true need as well. A centralized site would have great value too.

Just my thoughts, trying to flush out some things for myself. We definitely need to get information out to the consumer, then the market would function better. That’s the problem with markets, when they have wrong or incomplete information they behave poorly.