Comments

Episode-1591- Listener Feedback for 6-16-15 — 82 Comments

  1. I stopped having anything to do with them (Oathkeepers) after they sent me emails talking about all the “godless” people in Washington D.C. being the enemy.

    As an atheist that supported them, I’m not sure how to respond to something like that. I’m not sure what my view on religion had to do with anything.

    • Wasn’t aware of that, makes me think of the books by James Rawles referring to all bad guys as godless.

    • Chad:

      I actually had an acquaintance encourage me to become an associate member (or whatever they call it for those who aren’t military or law enforcement) of OK a while back, I think before they started to get really, really Alex Jonesy.

      I was initially lukewarm on joining just because I have a less rosy opinion overall of the Constitution than they do; but what tipped me over & made me decide to definitely NOT join was when I found out that a requirement of membership is to profess a belief in a God or Supreme Being of some sort, and as an atheist myself I couldn’t do that without lying.

      For my part, despite my atheism I’m happy to associate & work with believers as long as they really, truly, value genuine individual freedom — which includes the freedom of everyone to believe (or not believe) as they see fit.

      • What I love about this is it shows that an atheist can be totally bound by the obligation to the honor of truth.

        I myself an a deist so I do believe in a higher power by my honor doesn’t come from an obligation to “obey God”. It comes from my internal loyalty and morality.

      • “For my part, despite my atheism I’m happy to associate & work with believers as long as they really, truly, value genuine individual freedom — which includes the freedom of everyone to believe (or not believe) as they see fit.”

        Absolutely. Same here. I ain’t kiddin around about the freedom stuff. I don’t like someone implying that another human being, who’s not harming anyone, should somehow get fewer rights than everyone else.

  2. The dates on your files name for this show, and show 1590 are incorrect. They are both missing the “1” in front of the days date. I verified it on your feed. Thanks for a great show, as always!

  3. I’ve been having the exact same thoughts about Oath Keepers of late, and am a life member.
    Out the door and disappointed right along with you man.

    Also some Throat Coat tea, or an herbal like it with slippery elm and licorice will clear your voice right up – old radio man cure.

    • Jake, thanks for the Slippery Elm reminder, my wife sings and always has throat issues. My mom used to give me Slippery Elm when I was a kid.

  4. I admire you for speaking out on the email from Oath Keepers on this subject that you called a long time ago. From the comments you made about the organization, I assume you’ve spoken to Mr. Rhodes about your concerns? (I’ve only been listening about 9 months) If so, what was his response if any?
    I really wonder if the “yellow journalism” from Oath Keepers is a push because of low new members joining. After all, if they wish to market to LEOs and military, wouldn’t they realize the things being said are wrong? Perhaps they’re marketing to a new crowd. If so, I feel like they will loose members who joined for the same reasons I did.
    I stopped reading the emails from them about 6 months ago due to all of their hype on “media issues”. Today, I opened the email hoping it wasn’t as the subject line suggested. Unfortunately, I was wrong.

  5. I remember going to a McDonald’s on a family trip and that McDonald’s had a touch screen ordering system. You could also order threw the cashier but they were encouraging you to try the touch screen. I do not remember where this was or how long ago. I do remember people bring frustrated with it and my dad refusing to use it. I’m 25 now. This was long enough ago that I was not in high school and probably not middle school since I remember looking upto everyone. I would say McDonald’s has wanted to implement machines for a while but the customers are finally familiarized with the technology.

  6. Jack, when you interviewed Stuart I was so inspired by him. I joined, despite just being a firefighter who had never taken the oath. I left them when they got all fired up over the Bundy fiasco, and have noted and agreed with your declining enthusiasm for the organization.

  7. I’ve had major issues with OK for some time now too Jack. I took part in a conference call a few hears ago to organize Wisconsin with an OK chapter. Mr. Rhodes led the call. It was organized and billed as a discussion between those in WI and those at OK national to clear up the roadblocks limiting OK WI from taking off. What should have been a great opportunity to charge forward was anything but. Mr. Rhodes commandeered the discussion from the beginning and it became clear this wasn’t going to be a two way convo, it was all about Mr. Rhodes. He spent 2 hours going around the table asking the participants their prior service history (btw, none was the incorrect answer), what their skills were and most chillingly what preps each individual had and where they were stored. It was quite surreal and very creepy. The budding WI leadership all resigned their leadership roles post-call and I have only maintained limited commo with a handful of those folks. Everyone agreed that OK was not for them and moved forward without that level of BS in tbeir life. I let my membership lapse last year. That cash can buy an awful lot of seedlings that are far more valuable than a guy on an ego trip looking to join the indebtentured 2nd-rate elite ever will.

    Good call Jack. I’m with you 100%.

    Rogue

  8. How exactly are you defining ‘unskilled workers that can’t get a job anywhere else’?

    Speaking personally, for the past eight years I’ve had massive difficulty finding jobs of any sort despite putting in serious effort [the only jobs I’ve reliably acquired have been seasonal employment.]

    Is there some sort of resource anybody reading this could link to for finding work? I’m beginning to think I’m just getting screwed over by the old ‘lack of experience cycle.’

    • What are you willing to do for a start?

      Around here in DFW every second store and restaurant has a help wanted sign. One fact many seem to not get is that it is always easier to find a job when you have a job then when you don’t.

      • ‘it is always easier to find a job when you have a job than when you don’t.’

        Do you know the reason/psychology behind that? It’s so strange to me, I would have thought that as an employer one would prefer someone who was legitimately available and potentially loyal to someone who was looking to hop out of whatever job they currently have.

        As for what I’m willing to do, virtually anything that’s legal, without moving [I’m living with my elderly grandmother and helping to take care of her, at this juncture moving away isn’t an option] or driving too far relative to the value of the job [if it’s not paying enough relative to the distance I need to cover, I can get a whole lot more value out of investing that time into labor upgrading the homestead.]

        • Sure and it is damn simple.

          What are you doing right now? – Well I am looking for a job, that is why I am here. – So you don’t have a job, why not there are jobs that are available, not as good as the one you are after here, but jobs none the less? – Well I feel I am qualified for a good job one like you are offering, so I am working hard at finding one.

          That or something like it is what I hear from you. Now I interview your competition.

          What are you doing right now? – I work at the mall at a shoe store and at night I deliver pizza’s. Those are pretty low end jobs, why did you take them? – I have to work, I need a job, period, until something better comes along I took what I could get. It pays enough to keep me alive, I figure one of them might even lead me to meet someone who might offer me a better job. Both seem pretty low end but you never know what opportunity will come up when you work hard and do your best.

          So Lukkas, who the fuck to be blunt do you think I am going to hire there?

          This is one reason so many of you millennials are so ever loving fucked right now! You want something better but won’t bust your fucking ass doing what ever you can get, develop a track record of doing it and look for every fucking opportunity you can along the way. I have hired waiters and bar tenders to run construction equipment, pull cable, etc. That led them to better opportunities.

          And man, take these low starting things and do 3 or 4 at a time if you have to, while you can before automation makes most of them vanish like a fart in the wind.

        • Another way to put it, waiters and bar tenders have “regulars”.

          Tell me who are the most common regulars at bars and restaurants?

          The answer is business people conducting business! THINK ABOUT THAT.

      • Many thanks for the explanation Jack, much appreciated.

        Contrary to your assumption though, I have no problem with these ‘starter’ jobs. Trust me as someone who’s worked the carnival [and by working I don’t just mean taking tickets, I also mean setup and teardown of the rides] as it passes through town numerous times, I’ve got no problem with hard and ‘low-tier’ work and have submitted hundreds-if-not-thousands of applications for jobs of that grade.

        My problem is that despite busting my butt in searching for something more long term than seasonal, I’ve yet to receive so much as an interview. Hence my initial request for advice on getting the job to begin with.

    • One thing I look at as an employer is what was a person doing with that off time- a person who has occupied it with doing things to gain skills will be more appealing, even if those skills don’t fit what I need.

      Check with your local community college, see what class you can take for little or no cost.

      Computer classes for a certificate in XL, Word, etc
      Safety courses, even ones found online if they give you some sort of certificate.
      Any certification related to your field- for example if you want to get a job as a mechanic a certification for AC service.

      This stuff first pads your resume with stuff, and second shows you have drive to learn and improve.

      One last one- this one has helped a TON of my young Soldiers who were job hunting- go get certified as a Notary Public. Its usually just a few hour course, but it does several things. It makes you appear as trustworthy (its totally baseless that a government certification does that, but you can still take advantage of the misconception), if that company ever needs notaries it makes you a more valuable asset, and for whatever reason that one little entry on a young person resume or application seems to have a big effect.

    • @lukkas –

      a couple of other options (for when you’re ‘not working’):

      – go entrepreneurial, you don’t need ‘permission’ and cost can be zero to very minimal. All you need is ‘hustle’

      – sell on a ‘commission only’ basis. No one will turn you down for this ‘job’. Take an interest/area of knowledge. Go find someone who is selling/providing that thing.. pitch it as ‘What would it be worth to you if I brought you x business/sales?’

      – volunteer, and be the best damn/most productive/reliable volunteer they’ve ever seen. choose something you really believe in, that you can throw your whole heart into. why? first off.. its good for ‘us’. second off, its good for you.. establishes habits, work experience and is uber networking times ten. You will bump into people that have plenty of work.. and are ALWAYS looking for someone who can hustle.

      My opinion why the unemployed don’t get hired. If you’re not working, I have to ask myself ‘why not?’ If the answer is ‘because no one will GIVE ME a job’.. minus points, lacks initiative (see above things you could have been doing). If ‘its hard to find a job’.. whiner. In other words.. a working person is DEMONSTRATING that they can work.. they represent LOWER RISK.

      And seriously.. the hustle is what matters. I want to hire someone that is IN MOTION.. at 100 mph. Not someone that’s idling at the curb waiting to be told what to do.

      Caveat: the younger you are, the less I expect you to be ‘in motion’.. but by the time you hit your late twenties, if you haven’t got some forward momentum going.. I’m not going to hire you. There are plenty of younger, hungrier hustlers at the same level of experience that will work harder.

      As for ‘skilled’.. I’ll take smart and driven over ‘experienced’ any day of the week. Big dumb companies? All they give about is checking the boxes on their ’employment requirement’.. entrepreneurs? I could give a shit if you went to Harvard.

      Are you flexible, reliable, motivated? Are you the type of person that will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to complete the mission? Then you’re going places, and I want you working with me.

    • @lukkas
      worth a read:

      A Reader Story: Success Even After Self Destruction

      also.. have you changed your approach (to ‘trying’ to find a job)? Or are you doing the same thing HARDER(!!)?

      the right way = it works

      if its not working.. you might want to try a different way (experiment) =)

      definition of insanity.. blah blah (but its true!) 😉

  9. I understand were your coming from jack and there are many of us that feel the same way [in service and out].
    people do not take the oath seriously and look for the $ benefits.
    many that do are leaving wen their term is done weather it be in the Military or one of the gov services.
    keep up the great work with the pod cast

    Mike

    • I don’t blame those who join the military for “benefits” over service.

      Let me ask you WHY DO THEY DO THIS?

      Do you think the average 17 year old is thinking, fuck man, gonna get me that minimum wage job with health care I will use mostly because I will be injured constantly in training! Can’t wait to pull guard duty and work 24 on and 12 off for a week of guarding shit no one fucks with in the first place. After all that for about 4 years I can get enough “free money” for about 2 years of school, I can stretch it to three if I move back home and do the first two in community college.

      Really?

      The CHILDREN that join for the BENEFITS do it because military recruiters receive the MOST ADVANCED SALES TRAINING IN THE WORLD on how to sell those so called benefits.

      People like me never resent our recruiters because they never had to sell us, we just wanted to serve. Yet when I was in DEP I watched how they sold others, those guys would all make a metric fuck ton fortune if they joined Amway, they are that good.

  10. If you hook up to utilities and refuse to pay even the service fee eventually they with punish you by turning off your power and water. Also, a water tap is around $6000. Setting a pole with a meter base and junction box I another could grand if it’s not there.

  11. Hey Jack, How is that hurricane treating you? We are supposed to get it tomorrow. I am guessing your swales are good and full now. Mine should be following shortly.

    • Rain yesterday, deluge over night, still pouring now. Sills not discharging just yet but I think they will in less than say 30 minutes at this point! They did flow over night but we got so dry since the flooding that they went down, infiltration is happening yet again. In other words they are working perfectly.

      Ducks are ecstatic, turkeys are camping on the porch and are now big enough to give Charlie the metaphorical bird when he chases them off.

      Frankly rain is fine, wind is fine, no tornado or hail threats so I am pretty fine with June rains!

      • I checked out the radar, looks like y’all are getting more of the storm than we did in Houston. I’m sure the ducks aren’t complaining though!

        I’ve pretty much given up on my garden area in the back due to poor drainage. After listening to your recent talk about winter squash, I planted 50 seeds of 5 different variety in my front flower bed, and will allow them to take over my front yard food forest! Looking to develop a landrace suited to my yard!
        Thanks for all you do!

  12. Yeah, I’m with you on Oathkeepers Jack, been there for a while.

    Right idea, terribly flawed execution.

    I was an Oathkeeper in spirit long before they existed, and will forever be. I don’t need membership in an organization to prove it.

    I distance myself back when the Charles Dyer debacle happened. Those who don’t know can Google and read the debacle, but it boils down to this- he was a very active and vocal member of the group, who spoke on their behalf at public events and on YouTube. Stuart Rhodes endorsed his speaking on their behalf and posted on the web that he would be speaking on behalf of Oathkeepers at least once.

    Then he faced criminal charges. And the response from Oathkeepers was to quickly try and scrub any mention of him from their website and claim that he was not really a member because he had not paid dues so he really wasn’t affiliated with them. Sorry Staurt, when you post that he is speaking on behalf of your organization, you own the affiliation.

    An organization run with integrity would have had 2 viable courses of action. They could say “We stand behind Charles and think he is being railroaded/wrongfully accused/whatever” and while some may disagree, it’s a stance with honor and backbone. Or they could say “We saw no hint of this in our dealings with him, but are severing ties at the moment and watching to see the outcome of these charges. Sometimes people are not what you think despite your best efforts to surround yourself with good people” And that’s also an honest stance. But to try and go back and scrub history and claim a reality that wasn’t true was the wrong way to deal with it.

    That was my last straw. The ones all before that were the masses of rudely evangelical members they created. People would discover their website, then felt they had an obligation and moral authority to outright lecture everyone in service. I’m can’t count the number of people who approached me in uniform in an outright condescending tone demanding to know if I was an Oathkeeper and lecturing me about my responbilities- and not one ever did it in a way that was even remotely likely to win me over had I not already been on their side. I quit going to the gun shows on drill weekends over lunch just because of that, I couldn’t take another Soldier who was new to gun ownership without them leaving with the impression everyone was a rude condescending nutjob, and from everyone who gave that impression that word Oathkeeper was part of their diatribe.

  13. Great info on the minimum wage in 1964 and how our money has changed since then. It’s amazing to think that my grandpa could have supported his family on 5 quarters a day, and that they could have had a reasonable standard of living. This is one I’m definitely going to share.

  14. I just wanted to comment on Jack’s comments on generosity, especially how it’s displayed at his events around the barter blanket. My first experience with this was last November, and he isn’t kidding, ‘generous’ is the best word to describe what happens around the barter blanket. I’m looking forward to being better prepared next time!

  15. Can’t someone start an equivalent of Oathkeepers that is a different organization ? Otherwise it seems there is no alternative when Oathkeepers seemed like a good idea initially. Why let a perceived failure of one bunch lead to no alternative ?

    • I think the key would simply not trying to run it, just a thing people pledge to do and self organization. No fees, any affinity stuff could just be done with like zazzle or cafepress at cost or the artists making them could make a few dollars. An open source alternative, I may have an option soon, what would we call it though?

    • Something that I’m a little confused about.. why even have an Oathkeepers Organization?

      What exactly are they supposed to DO? (besides generate Oathkeepers branded merchandise)

      I understand BEING an Oathkeeper.. but I don’t need an Org for that. What does/did/was the org SUPPOSED to provide?

      (example: the ‘NRA argument’ is that someone has to lobby.. [not agreeing])

      Does your ‘movement’ (org) have a reason for being besides ‘spreading the message’? Does that work better as an ORG, or just as a PERSON encouraging others to consider doing something?

      In other words.. why not just do the same thing (the slogan/identifying emblem) copyleft it, and dump it onto the internet. Let me people self-organize with no ORG to suffer under the iron law, no dues to pay, and no ‘central authority’.

      You can be ‘a promoter’ or ‘a founder’, but not ‘the promoter’, ‘the founder’ or ‘the owner’.

      • I think that might actually be more effective at spreading the message and getting more people to ponder what it means. It’s easier to attack an organization than to attack lots of different kinds of people converging in agreement on one particular thing.

      • @Insidious

        Actually I think we are on the same page. I see a new group for this like a virtual nation lite, same as something else I am working on called “sovereign scouts”.

        I will provide a website for no cost, the site isn’t the group it is a free tool for people to use, that is all. Like say a mission specific facebook without NSA spying to go along with it.

        We state the main ideas and mission of the movement, then it is up to people to do as they will with it. If you take the site down, the movement still exists.

        For most of these concepts to reach full potential they need a unifying ideal and people that say, “I want to be part of that”.

        Now the iron law comes in as the original organizer says,

        “Well I want to dedicate my life to this, so this organization needs to pay my BASIC living costs”.

        Basic becomes COMFORTABLE and that ends up with a group big enough to need a STAFF who must make some money too. If the group succeeds and grows, more and more STAFF shows up, soon the volunteers and members are getting STAFFED in the ass.

        The only way to stop this ass staffing is avoid all staff. I don’t need money to set up a few websites and let people in the words of Yoda do or do not with them.

        The basic costs to run such a site are small and the site can even make me some money with some simple advertising if it is successful that is more than I need.

        NO 501Cs, that is THEIR WORLD, so to be blunt fuck them. Let people give to who they want, support what they want and do it outside THEIR SYSTEMS. I just want to create a hub for people to meet and organize under some common ideals and then get the fuck out of their way.

  16. Hey Jack, unless I missed it I think you left out the plant of the week on the show again!

  17. I’m kinda sick of all the Alex jones bashing that seems to be happening here. I mean I respect your decision to leave Oath Keepers but why bring Alex into this.? Alex jones woke me up.
    He has very informative guests from both the left and the right ends of the spectrum. He questions the government. He questions big pharma , big Agra and the military industrial complex. I don’t agree with him 100 per cent on everything and find some of his conclusions a little far fetched but heck I don’t know anyone with whom I agree 100 percent with and have questioned even my wife’s logic but I do have a profound respect for the mans courage and his willingness to stand up against the mainstream go along to get along attitude. I kinda cringe when I hear jack bashing Alex after all aren’t we all supposed to be on the same team?

    • I listened to a little bit of Alex Jones a few years ago but that was it.

      My take is that he’s fear-based, ramping up peoples emotions so that they can be manipulated into returning for the next very special crucial message or so they’ll buy stuff (a lot of which is bullshit and not useful).

      The Survival Podcast, on the other hand is about learning, and putting that knowledge to use – it’s action based, but on a personal level. It’s about forming an aggregate of strong, competent, and thinking individuals with the same commitment to liberty (for everyone).

      Constant fear burns people out while making the fear monger rich. Building a better mind and a better life out of love for things that are important to you is something that keeps giving back. Those are the things worth fighting for and protecting. Fear only gets you so far.

      • Chad
        I know what TSP is , I’ve been listening for quite some time.Unlike you , I wasn’t drawing any comparison or saying one was better than the other merely expressing my disappointment. I think that the world needs Alex jones as much as it needs teachers like Jack. I like common ground. I get great everyday life tips from Jack like gardening ,life design etc and I get great guests like Paul Craig Roberts , Francis Boyle ,John Perkins …from AJ
        I don’t get caught up in the fear and I really don’t see how I’m making him richer since his podcast is free and I don’t buy any of his products.

        • I’ll have to disagree with you, and I do in fact think one is better than the other. I can probably cut to the heart of what we disagree on by saying that I don’t believe Jones to be an honest man.

        • Wow, hard to believe anyone could see Alex Jones as anything other than a mentally ill and paranoid, or as a fear-mongering, money-grubbing charlatan. He has no rational place in the life of a realistic prepper or somone interest in the healthy, long-term survival of our nation.

        • @ dave
          Well Dave. Thanks for that. I do see him as someone other than the person you describe. What have you done to further the cause of liberty other than attack people for having a different opinion. Thanks for making me feel so welcome here.
          I’m canceling my msb membership and will be leaving this “tolerant ” community

        • @Brian, good example of showing tolerance.

          By the way don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

          “I am taking my ball and leaving” stopped working on this day 7 years ago at TSP, in other words it never worked.

        • @jack It’s called free association and voting with your dollars dumb ass. Not taking my ball anywhere. I spend my money where I feel it’s welcome. I’m done. Goodbye.

    • We don’t get alot of A Jones fans on TSP. I believe at least 90% of what Jones says is true or is worth looking into, the world is alot stranger than we think and even Jack occasionally sounds a bit like Jones for example I think some comments on the Boston bombing. I do think someone like Jones could cover the same material without being hard to listen to because of the commentary. Perhaps that is why Jones has not been removed by the powers that be, because he takes stuff that seems to be true and makes many people doubt it to be true. Certainly he is running a business and to do so at times he sensationalizes things, yet as I said alot of it seems to be true or needs more investigation. When I was into researching conspiracy a bit more, then I felt a need to listen to AJ alot more than I have been lately and he does 2 or 3 hours every day so he is putting out alot of content and it is true he often has good guests on; but I find it can be difficult to be in that conspiracy mindset all the time because that type of stuff makes you worried too much about the state of the world or it makes you cynical, depressed, and all that. Even much of the news can do that so it’s not just Jones in a way. I also don’t always agree with AJ analysis of what is going on, but what he portrays as facts very often needs to be looked at although oftentimes as I said I can’t always deal with it because it can bring you down

      • “90% of what Jones says is true or is worth looking into”?

        Depends how you mean it.

        If you mean 90% of the shit that tumbles out of his big mouth. You are baked on dope man! If you mean 90% of the subjects, you are correct. Most of the covered subjects are real for sure. Jade Helm does exist for sure. About every word after that is certifiable bullshit!

        Jones though is nothing but a guy trying to make a buck on a niche with an ego a mile wide. He talks over his guests and claims to know almost everything they say before they say it etc.

        Here was my final straw on Jones, he showed his true colors and the color he showed was “puke”.

        Watch John Bush be interrupted during his own pro gun rally!

        • I guess the big thing is Jade Helm, I don’t get too excited about such a military exercise .. but what it really means or where it could lead too with similar things even 5 or 10 years down the road I really don’t know. I have heard lots of analysis that are either somewhat alarmist or others that treat it as no big deal. I am not sure what to think about it. The alarmists might be wrong but I am still not too excited about these sorts of things nor really see why they need to happen in civilian areas

        • I will say that it does seem some of the alarmist stuff is wrong, but I am still not excited about what seems like police state activity such as constant marching around of troops and all, drills, exercises that seem larger or different than in years ago. .. I had some stuff on the forums about it and pretty much I said my feelings about it and others said what they had to say .. supposedly it’s for modern warfare and all that, there’s always some reason why it all goes on .. but I fully approve of your reprimands of various police activities that are not right which I know you often do say that

        • I think I have already seen that video from a long time ago.

          just by the fact that Stewart Rhodes is a lawyer from yale and because of the many negative comments about oath keepers I have had some doubts on that front

  18. Jack, I realize you don’t want to face the facts on global warming, so I’ll let you believe whatever you want. But what’s hilarious is that everything you said about those of us listening to the science being in some sort of religion actually applies to those denying global warming. Religion is delusional, like denying global warming. It’s too bad you keep going down that road. You have a lot of good things to say, but every time you deny global warming it takes away from the sensible things you say. Regardless, you’re thought-provoking.

    • What is funny is people like yourself are so blind, you have not even CONSIDERED the alternatives yet you accuse those of us who have of exactly what you have done. Again I was at one time a believer in Global Warming it was actually examining ALL the facts of the THEORY that changed my mind.

  19. A couple of minor complaints of this section:

    1. Calling global warming a “nutism” is simply a ad hominem attack. You can say human caused global warming is wrong, but you can’t claim that there isn’t some published evidence from vaguely reputable sources that points to these conclusions. Anthropomorphic Global Warming isn’t like believing in a 6000 year old Earth, it may be wrong but it isn’t stupid. It is stupid to proselytize it and I’m sorry people do that to you but there are informed people who have read extensively that believe in Global Warming, maybe incorrectly, but to claim they are all nuts because you don’t is just ad hominem and you are better than that.

    2. My second complaint is you saying “only a theory” in this context. A scientific theory is a hypothesis that is proven when new forecasted information is found to be true. The hypothesis that gravity is a force that curves space time is part of Einstein’s General Relativity from 1915 which correctly explains the orbit of Mercury, but what made it an accepted theory is the 1919 evidence of gravitational lensing. I don’t expect you to know the physics, but you do know the scientific method and shouldn’t say “only a theory” when you are talking about scientific theories. Gravity is well understood and accepted by every real scientist. There is some questions to be answered like the graviton/quantum gravitation, detecting a gravity wave, etc., but to claim you don’t know something because there is still some tiny gray areas says that we don’t really know anything. Yes, maybe String theory or any other the other unified field theories will modify our knowledge of gravity, but not by much. We still teach Newtonian physics, because for most of life, it is accurate. We accept General Relativity because without it you can’t have GPS or many other modern technologies.

    • To express a well formed opinion is not an ad hominem attack it is a well reasoned opinion.

    • I agree, unless if your well formed opinion is that anyone who doesn’t take your side in a discussion is a “nut”, then it is ad hominem. I mean, can you say that there isn’t at least circumstantial evidence of anthropomorphic global warming? I’ve seen claims that 97% of scientists agree with it. Even if I give you 99% of those could be shills for corporations, is that last 1% nuts?

      • When you blame every thing that happens on AGW you are a nut, only you can tell if you fit that definition.

      • @ Richard Hauser
        I agree with every point you made. However, I saw this last week.
        http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/lethal-seas.html
        This is supposedly a science based show, and yet if anyone believes this crap, they’re not thinking critically. And by putting out nonsense like this, it prevents the real conversation from taking place. The end result is the opposite of environmentalism

    • Richard, you make some good points, although we disagree on AGW. But at least people are now admitting the planet is warming, although many still don’t want to admit the role of fossil fuels (and thereby have to think about modifying some of their political bedfellows). And let’s don’t forget the germ “theory.” But is it wrong to proselytize, if by that we mean we are trying to change someone’s opinion or belief? If you see potential (and possibly avoidable) catastrophe shouldn’t you be saying something? Aren’t we all proselytizing when we make comments here? Jack is certainly proselytizing. I believe in AGW. But even if you don’t want to admit the role of fossil fuels and want to say it’s “natural” you still had better be talking about what those changes mean for the food supply, weather and et cetera. We’re supposed to be preparing. To prepare we need to know what we’re preparing for. Would be interesting to know how the community feels about other big challenges: overpopulation, dwindling clean water supply and et cetera.

      • I’m not making a claim on AGW. This is Jack’s show, Jack’s website and Jack’s opinions and that is fine. My comment is not trying to sway Jack or anyone else on this issue, but to suggest that he temper his opinion of people who don’t take his side on this issue. There is massive push of pro-AGW articles out there from seemingly credible sources and relatively few anti-AGW articles, so my point was just to say that even if a person tries to research this issue in depth as a laymen smart people could end up on either side.

        • Actually there is now so little support for warming and has been so little support for it for SO LONG that many years ago they stopped calling it “global warming”, did you not get that memo Richard?

          Yes this is a religion because EVEN THE IPCC etc cetera has SAID that global warming has “paused” at this point for FOURTEEN YEARS and changed the moniker to “climate change” and the BELIEVERS still think the planet is warming.

          If that isn’t religious faith what is?

          Even the priests say, it is dead, but it will rise again.

          And the believers say, it never left it is still here.

          What more do you need to see this as a religion?

          Also I never said if you think CO2 effects global temperatures you are a nut. Those of us who object to modern AGW theory admit this and are always made out to do otherwise.

          What we say is CO2 does effect temps, it however has done most of what it can do, it can’t do much more at this point. It isn’t that CO2 can’t raise temps it is that it can’t just keep doing it on and on forever and the projections of the AGW INDUSTRY are sensationalist and we have FAR MORE PRESSING PROBLEMS as it pertains to pollution from fossil fuels.

          The response? You know what it is!

          Basically “blasphemer! you hate the planet, you are a shill for the oil companies, the science is settled, there is no more room for debate!!!!”

          Yes it is a religion and it is worshiped by NUTS who don’t know shit about the very science they claim supports their FAITH.

          Tell you what from persecution of non believers, to believing in what can’t be proven and back, here is my challenge Richard. You give me any hallmark of a religious cult, I will show you how believers in AGW mimic it.

          I don’t call people that are concerned about pollution or even CO2 nuts, I do call ANYONE that just believes the main stream presentation of “CLIMATE CHANGE” nuts because there is no other correct way to view it.

          Global Warming causes droughts and excessive rain in the same places in different years, but we will blame it for both.

          Global Warming causes war in the middle east.

          Global Warming is responsible for a rise in prostitution.

          Sigh, yes this is a religious cult!

        • @ Moden Survival –
          The media is overwhelmingly pro AGW. And there are plenty of ‘scientists’ in the anti AGW camp that are not to be trusted for anything. I could see someone, who is not a nut but doesn’t have a deep understanding of permaculture and/or biology, chemistry etc. looking at the people who present the arguments and trusting that these people know what they’re talking about.
          So, I tend to feel like it’s less of a religion for many (although I completely understand and agree with what you’re saying for the people that are really over the top about it), and more that people are tired, they’re not thinking critically, and they trust this person(s) or organization(s) judgment.
          So, my question to you would be, where would you draw the line between a religious faith, and just someone who’s maybe too trusting?

        • When someone believes and trusts things a true without proof and alters life choices based on that faith, we have moved into religion.

          All you are saying is it is a well marketed religion.

        • So, then you’d put just about everything that falls into the modern dichotomy, on both sides of the argument in the realm of religion?

        • Almost everything, yes, it is a religion that I have talked about and named many times. Statism. Statism is a religion!

        • @ Modern Survival –
          You’ll love this response:
          I’m working with my father when your last response comes across my phone. I look at the picture, and say “Ewwww! Wow!”
          My father asks what’s going on, I give him the backstory and then show him the exact same picture.
          He looks at it for about 3 seconds and goes “I like those things, there’s nothing wrong with any of them! What, are you and Jack communists now?”
          Kind of revealing isn’t it? LOL

        • Here is what you should ask him in return.

          Can you please tell me which of these things is absent in a communist government?

          LOL

  20. *sigh*

    certainty is NOT science

    that’s not the way it works.

    certainty is a BELIEF.. as in FAITH

    the debate is never ‘over’.. but debates, after being thoroughly discussed and considered, aren’t worth revisiting until NEW evidence is discovered

    ..or the current generation of scientists die. (see ‘The Structure of Scientific Revolutions’)

  21. “…facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world’s data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don’t go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein’s theory of gravitation replaced Newton’s in this century, but apples didn’t suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome.

    Moreover, “fact” doesn’t mean “absolute certainty”; there ain’t no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world.

    In science “fact” can only mean “confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent.” I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.:

    -Stephan Jay Gould

  22. Chiming in a little late, but I took Oath Keepers off my radar a while ago. I was into the idea and remembered hearing whispers about them and then signed up right after Rhodes came on the show. After the year was over, I didn’t have to put much thought into whether or not to renew my membership. I know they were kind of new at the time, but it was a pretty underwhelming experience.

    It is a good idea and could be a good thing, but the whole Alex Jones / militia man aura gives them a very “small tent”. The average military/law enforcement guy isn’t going to want to listen to these guys with that kind of baggage. Hopefully losing their Spirko endorsement will send them back to the drawing board…

  23. I never agree with anyone 100 percent. I support the Oath Keepers mission, I support Alex Jones, and support Jack Spirko. I probably agree more with Jones than Spirko on many issues.

    I believe the disagreements are over pure politics. The Glenn Beck crying, Jones screaming, Oath Keepers emails, and yes even Spirko are capitalists and must fund their operations by dare I say making money to pay for their efforts by spreading their message out to their audience.

    I would state questioning people’s motives is often where many good people have gone astray. I have been guilty of such tactics and have learned from my mistakes.

    The founders often engaged in what Jack would label as alarmist and BS Alex Jones sensationalism conspiracies not founded in truth.

    Thomas Jefferson was fueled by a conspiracy that the British government would enslave the colonists and that perhaps everything the framers were working for would all be for nothing much to the discontentment of Madison. The founders attacked British loyalists calling for compromise and dialogue, appeasement, rather than calling for independence.

    The founders of our nation spoke of fear and alarmist propaganda regarding standing armies, and the monstrosity of government. They were also flawed by their hypocrisy which often tore at their conscience. Nobody is perfect.

    Writing off Oath Keepers because you disagree with their politics and the way they spread their messages like every one in this field, is short sighted.

    However, I am not writing off anyone yet.

    • To me Jones is a POS and a thief and doesn’t believe his own bullshit. Period. The man is a flat out liar, and he knows he is a flat out liar. Again all one needs to do to understand who Jones really is, is watch this video,

      There is absolutely NO WAY to defend his behavior in this video. What a fucking asshole. Jones would fail a polygraph, I would take one side by side with him, if he would agree to it.

      Liars hold no court with me.

      OathKeepers means well but has lost its way. If you don’t call out such things when it happens, it only gets worse. Stewart Rhodes is at heart a good and honest man but is chasing a ghost to try to shore up membership but can’t see that he is scuttling his own ship at the same time. What he does next is up to him.

      By the way, what exactly is the “mission” of Oathkeepers? I understand that mission well but what they have done for the last two years hasn’t done a thing to further it at all.

      A mission only matters if it is pursued. Stewart’s mission has become nothing but media time and exposure in an attempt to gain members by any means.

      That is not why I joined, it is NOT to be blunt why I am a founding member.

      I also take issue with your assertion that I say what I say in ANY FUCKING WAY at ANY FUCKING TIME, solely to make money.

      If I wanted TSP to make more money, all I would need to do is hold a few of my principles a bit closer to my chest, say a few less things, pander a bit more to both the left and the right and I could likely double billing.

      What I say and what I do costs me money many times, but I say it and do it because I follow my personal moral code. I defy you to ever tell me to my face I do not. That is not in anyway a phyical threat, it is a statement that I doubt you could even get close to doing so, if you looked me in the eyes. I am one of the most honest people around, that is why so many DON’T like me. I would not have it any other way!

      The person I have to live with always is myself.

      Sadly people like Stewart are losing sight of that fact and justifying “just a little hype”, Jones is a thief I doubt he sees himself as anything but an actor.

      • Lastly OathKeepers IS A POLITICAL ORGANIZATION. If you don’t agree with their politics there is little reason to be part of it. I know it wasn’t supposed to be political, again I was a founding member. But it is what the leadership has made it. So if an organization is mostly political why the fuck would anyone be part of it if they didn’t agree with the political agenda?

  24. I wonder if anyone knows what 18 USC 241 & 242 is. This area of the Constitution is not really explored too much. You would think this legal framework would be “ammunition” against the Federal Government.

    But I can see why it isnt really explored because its a State vs Federal which is always a hot button issue.
    Maybe doing a show on the 18 USC 241 & 242 in the future could be quite interesting.