Episode-1316- Listener Feedback for 3-10-14 — 61 Comments

  1. Containment Monday:

    Not having the resources for quarantine implies space is limited and the outside environment is too hostile to survive. I would suggest the infected embark on ‘high risk’ missions that the group had up to this point been reluctant to undertake.

    My thinking is people want to die in one of two ways: peacefully in their sleep or performing some heroic deed. This avenue provides the infected a ‘meaningful’ death.

  2. I don’t understand why you couldn’t quarantine the group… if you can banish them, you can quarantine them by pushing them outside the living areas for a while, if not then you are shooting them in the head anyways. There should be some where they can go, if not, you probably aren’t long for this world anyways because you aren’t getting out.

    The flu is hard because you might also be sick and not showing symptoms yet. Therefore, shooting people leads to a precedent of last man standing and you might as well say goodbye to the group. Banishment, you might be banishing your loved ones? The flu doesn’t kill 100% of people that have it, so there is a chance that the majority/minority of the group will recover so your ahead by not shooting people. Odds of recovering is better on the inside.

    Would I put it to a vote? Probably not, I would put it to a discussion and if I felt I and loved ones had better odds being out of the group than being in it, I would leave for a while. In reality if people are dropping dead you would think they would not want to be with the group for fear of destroying it. I’d rather keep an open door to coming back or the people being quarantined coming back. If the group doesn’t like it, then I am in the wrong group. Voting is just mob rule. Plus, what if they vote to let them stay and now everyone dies… you’d want to leave then too.

    I also think there is a failure in planning because you don’t have a quarantine area.

    Out of supplies doesn’t really address what supplies maybe you should have on hand. And quarantine supplies… this is where our family takes this game. To me that is the learning lesson.

    • Does your family use the ‘scoring’ aspect of this game or do you just use it to facilitate discussion? I’ve had great success using it as more of a party game/ice breaker. We do this in a Balderdash type fashion. Someone reads the scenario, everyone other than the reader writes down a reply and the reader chooses who answered the best. Discussion may or may not ensue.

      • We just really use the discussion of the game so far. We mainly do it in an informal manner like before dinner or after dinner, just take a card or two and go around what would you do. I also played a few cards with a buddy over IM.

        One thing that was funny that came out of it, is I made fun of my wife that she couldn’t even light the wood burning stove. I don’t remember how that came up. Next, day she had pictures and a whole story about how she lit the stove with a toilet paper tube, news paper and dryer lint and didn’t smoke out the house. Then I told her that was nice but she still doesn’t know how to turn the water off to the house 🙂

        • Um, not to step on your macho thing but it would behoove you to teach your wife everything you know even how to shut off what she should now how to shut off. Its better in a survival situation that every body in the group know as much as possible since your life might depend on her knowing what to do in a situation if you are not there to do it in. Instead of telling her what she doesn’t now how to do like that makes you more valuable. Survival is a group effort. Not trying to be a pain, just being practical.

      • LOL, lene, I totally agree, she just has no interest with some things. Like I have no interest in learning how to train her horse. While probably a valuable life skill, with the million things I am learning, this is one that I’m dropping off the list. I listen to her so I have some ideas on how to lunge the horse and what to do if he gets mouthy and tries to show dominance, but its just not something I want.

        You can only really teach those who are ready to learn. As with the fire thing, I showed her how to do it but she wanted to up me and go online and learn how herself. I just sparked that willingness to learn. I mean we have fire starter chips next to the stove that she could have used.

        Trust me the fire was a good step forward. Not trying to be macho at all its more of a frustration thing because she isn’t interested. Like changing the water filter or putting in a new a water heater.

  3. Literally is a pet peeve of a good friend of mine. We talked about this years ago when we were deployed. Example: Imagine a news anchor saying “It’s literally raining cats and dogs out here”.

      • Wow, great video, Colby. I was not aware that “literally” had been used that way for so long. A better example may have been the word “bully”, which has flipped from good to bad not once, but twice.

    • Good video.
      I would then ask, when should hyperbole be put to the side? Should a news organization be using hyperbole what-so-ever?

      Insidious recently bought me book (he still hasn’t told me where his past comes from it) which is a book more or less about linguistics, which dabbles in the preciseness of speech. The book discussed the concept of a report. (Effectively relaying specific information to another). If a reporter is using hyperbole, to include the word literally when the action is not literal, they’re not longer giving a report, they’re providing something else. This is why I, and others, properly call “news”, entertainment.

  4. The Game>>>>
    Is my group leader, we vote, always do. if you have a group and this type of out break happens. i have voted that we break into three groups. split the groups supplys into threes. the stong group will stay and keep it running. group two will be contact from group one to group three on finding a cure. and group three will have to start a compound of the sick, to work on keeping it in the compund and finding a cure.

  5. Jack,

    Did I miss the announcement about the tsp voices meetup?

    Just hoping to meet my roll model!

    P.S. I’d love to know who you are looking forward to hearing speak

    • If you did than so did. Jack asked for us to send an email with Permaculture Voices in the subject line to let him know to include you. I haven’t heard anything yet, but I know he’s a super busy guy.

      I’m looking forward to it. It’ll be really good to have this inspiration just before the spring thaw!

      • I am setting up an email list now so I can hit all of you and everyone can talk to each other. Ill take the list down after the event so it won’t bother anyone after it is over.

  6. on the language issue…. conspiracy is another word that has taken on a new meaning. One can conspire to commit a crime and it doesn’t have to bring images of grassy knoll or area 51.

  7. Hey Jack thanks for the shout out!

    Excellent answer on the suburban food production question. I completely agree on your suggestions for intensive annual / perennial systems and integrating small scale livestock. I think the fastest R.O.I. for anyone who wants to get into producing their own food is to start with livestock, then use the outputs from the livestock to establish the plant systems.

    Are rabbits more work than quail? I think that depends where you are located. In warmer regions I think the quail will have less challenges than the rabbits. Where I am, zone 6, they both do fine and really are equal in there time / effort inputs. I’m not sure how cold you could go with the birds before the rabbits become a better option, but we had a lot of days an nights in the 0 to -15 range this winter and it didn’t bother them one bit.

    Another benefit of starting with animals is that you can use the animals to help establish your plant systems. I built 4 rabbit / quail tractors last summer and used them to start my forest garden.

    Take Paradise lot add a little bit of Angelo’s Micro Garden, expand it to a full 1/10th of an acre, mix in some integrated grazing areas for livestock and you’ve got what my forest garden will be. 37 out of 125 productive trees planted last year, 3/4 swales dug, 50+ more trees on order for this spring. Just waiting on the damn snow to melt..

    Looking forward to sharing the process with anyone interested in the near future.

    Take care!

    Oh and a link to the quail stuff for anyone interested.

    TSP Episode 1017.
    Free eBook I wrote on quail

      • on the rabbits
        we have two bucks
        each buck has two does
        we can breed them with out cross that way for 5 years.
        each doe has a litter of around 5. so that is 20 bunnies for around 80 per year. So at 7lbs of meat each X 80 = 560lbs of meat a year. (we sell rabbits for $15 each one we after weaning for cash if we have to much meat stocked) Plus I do all feet like hot wings so I have about 25 doz hot rabbit hot wings, 560lbs of meat, bunny poop (two 5gallon bucket loads of fertilizer that we sale for $10 a buck….keeping one a month for our site that is $120 extra a year for about 2oz of gold), and Fur for throw rugs, coats, slippers, fly tying or just tan out for sale for around $5 X 80 = $400 (that is around 16oz of silver)
        so I get hot wings, meat, fertilizer, fur, (I have heard you can use it as aquaponics fish food) and a way to make a little extra cash to by the feed for them and for my safe.

        • o and the cost of feed for the rabbits is around $300 for the year just plan feed bags….if you throw in garden scraps, and rabbit tractor…. this cost is $180 to $200.
          ground beef is around $3 a lb…so 500lbs of meat is $1500.00> go rabbits in a shed…know one knows and you have dog food. LOL

        • Thanks, I was just about to ask a rabbit question, but you pretty much answered everything. Do you keep them in wire cages? Last time I checked beef was $5lb for no frills tube of ground chuck, its gone up a lot recently! I’m hoping to buy my first two rabbits this weekend.

  8. Jack,
    There were a number of show note links that you mentioned in the show that didn’t make it. You said 2 links regarding backyard pruning.

    • All three promised links added, thanks for the catch Mike as you might imagine this week is kind of hectic.

    • Thanks jack.
      I wasn’t really expecting to get a lot out of the links, mostly was looking out for some others, but these are some stellar links! I’ll be using some of these designs in consideration for the 80+ trees/bushes that are sitting on my patio right now. Some last minute big changes have kind of left some trees without a home.

      The answer to that seems to be, pack them in tighter.

      • Mike go to Dave Wilson’s home page and watch the video on pruning on it. Wow, watching it now, learning so much.

        • These videos should be required watching.

          After seeing the extreme pruning one… i mean….. I feel like I still want to see roughly how much you out of it, but I can say this makes me want to get about a million more trees and make them much much smaller.

          It makes me think even more about bringing in trees that I don’t care a TON for but like. Apricots, plums or something else. I like them don’t get me wrong, but I don’t like to eat a million and a half fresh plums. OK, well lets make a 5-6 foot tall plum tree. In the areas where I’m looking at doing silvio pasture, I want the least amount of sun blockage, so I’ve been selecting smaller sized trees. Ok forget that, how about I just keep getting different varieties and prune them into bushes.

        • The more I go along, the less alcohol I drink. I’ve gotten to the point where I just don’t drink or want to drink (that often). Mostly because I don’t want to drink up so much wheat products. I reaaaaaaally love beer too. The other big thing for me is cost. Not to mention we HAVE ENOUGH BEER BOTTLES. (We don’t throw any away).

          But I tell you what wine and particularly fruit wine seems to be where its at…. They have this local winery that does Black Currant wine (i was surprised myself). Way too good. Another local winery does Blackberry and Blueberry Merlots. Also really darn good. I haven’t tried plum wine, but I bet it is good. My favorite part about plums is the skin. I’m not even that crazy about the insides, but the skin is just so good.

          My aunt made some persimmons (american) wine this year. Hadn’t tasted it yet, but she said it was pretty good (quite strong).

  9. As an anarchist, one thing I would note on the difference between monarchy/anarchy, is that voluntary certifications are anarchistic, not minarchistic as was described. A minarchist (or full statist) might accept the validity of voluntary certification (e.g. AgriTrue for food or UL for electrical equipment), but that doesn’t make them minarchist. If something is voluntary, then it’s anarchist.

    A minarchist might want fewer of these mandatory certifications, but it’s still the same exact certification program as a full statist. So a statist might want 90 mandatory certifications and 10 voluntary ones, a minarchist might want 10 mandatory certifications and 90 voluntary ones, but an anarchist wants 0 mandatory certifications and 100 voluntary ones.

    • See I again disagree, if the minimalist state offered but didn’t require certification no one is compelled to accept validity. I don’t think we need most state “certifications” and frankly I described how one could, not should exist in a manarchist state. In other words, this could work, not this is necessary, needed or even desired. In the model I described the state would have to make a case as to why anyone should care and have to fund their little initiative with voluntary fees. The reason such a system doesn’t concern me is it would have to be really useful or it would fail. 99% of the things they “certify” or “inspect” would naturally go away in this model.

      Generally a minarchist would want 0 mandatory anything. I don’t know where you are getting your numbers from, I think you are pulling them from thin air. Just because a state offered something would not make it mandatory. Certainly that isn’t what I described at all. Not even close.

    define “deadly”… this year’s strain was pretty bad, a number of people died but the death vs. infection ratio is really low. Not sure we would have the resources to know this one way or another… but assume that we dont – I would make the assumption that even a really bad strain would be 25% or less death rate and even then we havent seen something that bad in a very long time.

    Banishing them is probably a death sentence anyway, if there isnt a quarentine then it implies wherever they will be banished to is not safe. Choosing this option not entirely understanding the ratio is problematic.
    Shooting them is the least favorible, if infected they stay in camp and so does the virus. I can say with 100% confidence I would not choose this option.

    Assume that there is at least SOME living space, and some way of distancing everyone… Id set everyone up with a bit of food, water, and a compfy spot and they would STAY THERE. everyone distances themselves as much as possible and let the virus take its course and let the cards fall as they may.

  11. Conflicted Monday….

    Trick scenario. Unless the infected members were (for all intents and purposes) already quarantined by a mission or by being away from the group by the time you realize these members are sick your entire group has been exposed assuming that you are communicating faced to face frequently which I feel is likely in your tight knit group. The… drastic scenario of an enforced quarantine or elimination of sick members is an over reaction.

    Given that this is a deadly outbreak I would assume that at least one of the members of your group has died and that would depending on the size of your group already represent a statistically significant lethality. In other words… if your group is 20 people and 1 succumbed to this disease it would be more deadly than any flu outbreak we’ve seen in my lifetime (30 years). Most likely the standard wisdom holds true, those oldest and youngest in the group would be at highest risk and as already mentioned the entire group is a carrier if not ill.

    So instead of worrying about whether or not to shoot grandpa before someone else gets sick I’d be focusing on solidfying my preps (assuming some or all of us will be down for the count for a few days) aka, making sure the water is at hand, food is laid out, blankets are clean, chores are done while some of the group is healthy and then sitting down to wait her out.

    If it does escalate to 50-60+ % lethality then the group will weather it no better or no worse and you may have just shot the guy who would get over it and nurse the rest of you through your own illness in the following weeks.

    • Wow. What an answer. It’s not like I didn’t “know” anything that you said, but certainly hadn’t put it together like that. If you know they’re sick, its already WAY too late.

    • agreed, great answer. It is LITERALLY the best answer for the card.

      However, for the sake of being Conflicted, what if it’s not a flu?

      There are other types of infectious diseases that aren’t contagious until after symptoms appear. Some with a 100% mortality rate if contracted.

      • @Justin, this is part of it though. If members of your group are infected, you are already exposed. Banishing them won’t do anything at that point. Further, I don’t accept that they can’t be quarantined. All that is necessary is some separation. I would not banish or shoot them. I would force them to live away from us until they either survived or died.

        Odd are at the point members of your group got sick, you either are infected already and will show symptoms soon or you are not going to get sick due to immunity.

    • Good answer Mike from NH, my option C was also to ride it out (assuming that everyone was pretty much cross-exposed already due to direct contact and shared facilities). I would try to keep any infants without symptoms away from the actively sick, and employ whatever sanitation measures are available – with the intent of managing the timing as best we can so everyone isn’t at their worst at the same time.

  12. Hi Jack,
    I did a search on the site for the Dove dressing video you mentioned but couldn’t find it. As if you’re not busy enough to have another link request!
    Thank you.

  13. @Justin

    The flu as a sickness transmitted easily by air and an extremely common sickness is one that makes sense for the question. Carrying it beyond that takes us from good thinking and good prepping down the rabbit hole like with EMP.

    Could you be struck by lightning? Yes. Should you prep for it? Could you make this question about an uncommon, super lethal, disease where symptoms can be identified before the disease is contagious where a hypothetical solution of quarantine or killing the infected is the only rational answer…. yes…. but surely by the time you get there you realize that you’re only manipulating the question trying to get your desired answer.

    Diseases that transmit easily often do not have visible symptoms or 100% proof positive symptoms prior to a contagious stage. This is one of the reasons they transmit so easily and so quickly. This also isn’t a zombie apocalypse scenario. Shooting the infected in almost every case is not the answer. You can shoot a rabid dog because you know how the infection is spread and you know there is no cure (or if you had it, you wouldn’t use it on the dog never mind that it wouldn’t be effective after the dog reaches the visible symptom stage). You do not shoot a human with rabies because you can (and probably will) continue to care for them and with simple sanitary procedures in place you will not get rabies.

    Quarantine was considered to be a solution by people who didn’t know germ theory, didn’t have the benefit of modern medical discoveries or tools and didn’t know what they were dealing with. We, on the other hand, may not know what the disease is but we do (or should) know the basics of germ theory, sanitation (and sanitary medical practices) and the fact that we don’t “cure” a disease either our body dies in fighting the disease or succeeds and we get better. Quarantine, in the sense of keeping outsiders out and insiders in may protect your group or protect outsiders but once the sickness is in your group regardless of what it is there is little you can do.

    I feel for those who suggest some people “work towards a cure”. That’s how it works in games and on TV right? Someone figures out that putting soy sauce in your orange juice miraculously cures the disease and why didn’t we think of that before right? Even if your group was a highly trained team of doctors and researchers with impeccable facilities and supplies the odds of them finding a cure after the group was infected in order to save the group or those who are sick is basically nil. It’s not how most diseases work, and it’s a case of too little too late.

    Yes, there are some diseases with very high lethality. Yes there are some diseases that you can suspect someone carries before they are contagious or without being at risk of contracting it yourself. Could that possibility change the way your group handles interaction with outsiders in a SHTF scenario? Sure. Should it influence how you deal with an infection within the group? I say, probably not and if it does it should be in very specific, case specific ways. I feel it’s safe to go out on a limb and say most of us are not doctors or training to be, and even such professionals might be hard pressed to identify certain diseases or pathways of infection in such a high stress scenario.

    I will add, I want no part of a group of survivors that considers a consensus vote whether or not to execute a member OK. Perhaps some would. Don’t be too quick to make the decision before considering that you might be on the receiving end of that vote… do you think your group would let you cast a vote too?

  14. I love the butternut squash story. I laughed because I took over part of the kitchen counter to germinate seeds this year. My girlfriend wants to know when she’s getting the counter back.

    Mike from NH nailed it. I started the podcast yesterday, but finished it today. I came to a similar conclusion. Killing members of your group is not an option. An afflicted person has probably infected everyone else anyways. I would have worked on helping to get that person back up to health and trying to quarantine them.

    This gets you thinking on other situations when it comes to a group. If you are down a person it is best to work in more breaks for people on scheduled duties. This way you get more rest time for people that will assume the down person’s duties and keep the general health of the group up.

    • Yeah, I have to take our soaking tub, the master bedroom bathroom has the only south facing window in our house 🙂 The window is above the tub and I can put a board over the tub to germinate. Imagine how that one plays out 🙂

  15. I’m only playing advocate here, not trying to poke holes in anyone’s replies. You provided a great response on how to handle a typical flu outbreak. Kudos.

    I took the card as a moral dilemma question and attempted to rationalize the decision of banishment versus execution. Perhaps there are things to be gained from banishment. Perhaps “taking it into your own hands” is actually a very peaceful euthanization versus an excrutiating death from the disease.

    I interpreted the scenario presented a bit differently. The group has already decided they are going to banish the infected, the vote was only formality. How do you react?

    • Depends. I’d probably argue for a segregated quarantine rather than a traditional banishment and if it impacted a member of my family I would probably go with them.

      I think any such separation must include the plan and opportunity to reintegrate in the future.

  16. Very few if any flu are actual pandemics of anything significant and those that supposedly where may have been greatly exaggerated such that the true history off is not clear ..

    Corn came from the Americas correct ? If there was a corn shortage in 1316 I am just curious as to when corn actually was introduced into Europe ?

    • On the corn a good catch! I think and I am guessing this is an old term used at the time that actually referred to some varieties of wheat. Sepp Holzer referred to a type of perennial grain on his property over and over as “corn” but it isn’t what we call corn, more of a wheat type of thing.

    • Similar to the misnomer of calling the first brown people they came across “Indians,” white settlers used the old world term “corn” for the new grain they came across in America. In Europe, corn could mean wheat, oats or barley.

  17. I was thinking today that the danger of a solar EMP melting down our grid such that all the nuclear plants melt down because they run out of backup power is a much more serious danger than global warming.

    The global warming thing is a conspiracy, it’s not like they are stupid. They want to tax carbon and control the population, how can you analyze it any other way ?

  18. Can the author of the letter about CO2 provide their sources?

    I like to send people directly to sources and I don’t want to misquote anything.

  19. Jack,

    Thanks for the mention on the show. I listen not only because I enjoy the content, but because you make me think. It was a treat to hear that my message had made you think in turn.

    All the best,



    if 1/3 are infected – then 2/3 are not? How can we bere 100% sure that 2/3 are not infected? If it is contagious, then the 2/3 probably already are possibly/probably infected already & you’re all screwed already if 1/3 are already known to be infected.

    but to play as i guess the game wants to be played:
    If somehow, 1/3 are infected, it is contagious, but the other 2/3 are not infected, one could first argue that the survival of the 2/3 is more important than the 1/3. But the 1/3 are probably close fiends & family. Shooting is out of the question in my opinion either way. Simple banishment is out. Basically, “banish” them to the direct outside, with resources to start building a quarantine shelter. Build a way to pass food out to them. Fear of bandits? They’re infected – that’s a good weapon. They would not have valuable resources- that would be passed out as needed.
    Or, to argue with the point that there is no place to quarentine them – If there is room for these people in normal times, there is room to quarentine them somewhat by moving people & resources around. Also, maybe put each infected in bio-suits to be quarantined individually. A mask could be altered to filter air going out, not in. Move them all also to one side, and hang sheeting between.
    thanks. great show

  21. Just a thought on today’s history segment. How can Europe’s corn crops be devastated when corn won’t be introduced from the Americas for another 150+ years?

      • Thanks Jack. I must have missed the earlier comment. Keep up the good word.

        P.S.: I used to work for Danaher, too

  22. I thought it was interesting that you went from not misusing words to equating social engineering with tyranny. The funny thing is I think I and everybody listening understood exactly what you were meaning, yet the word used was used as defined by people who have perverted the word. The relevant definition of engineer here is “to arrange, manage, or carry through by skillful or artful contrivance” which is exactly what you want to do. You want to design systems where you don’t have to force anything and everything just goes and does what you want it to.

    The difference is crappy engineering vs good engineering. All good engineering is done to meet an end with the least combined upfront and ongoing effort. A police state is the antithesis of what good social engineering would be.

  23. For the gentleman with the wet property:

    Think Chinampas.

    Floating islands on which to grow your crops.

    Imagine the surface of the ground as the surface of a lake, and build your ‘boats’ high enough to keep your plants roots dry (at least enough so they thrive rather than drown).

  24. Jack Spirko: The next thing you have to think about is how much productivity can I move into perennial production. Annuals feed you now, perennials feed you for your life. Write that down. Everyone write that down right now, so that I don’t forget that I said it one day. Someone but that somewhere where I won’t forget it. Annuals feed you now, perennials feed you through your life.

  25. Would it be possible to get a copy of the CO2 email you read online? I’d love to share it with my friends in text form.