Episode-1511- Listener Feedback for 2-3-15 — 84 Comments

  1. Jack, I’m not surprised by the Oregon bill requiring license and registration for bicycles. I know a lot of bicyclists who insist that they want to be treated the same as any other vehicle on the road. And, in Oregon there are a lot of these people. This is the result of their demanding this treatment.

    • Yeah, living in Portland is real fun. Bicyclist have very little sense of self preservation and ride the streets and sidewalks like they have the right of way.
      I don’t know how many times I’ve wished there was a way to identify and report a bicyclist for blowing through stop signs right in front of you causing you to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting them, riding down the middle of the street (with headphones) oblivious to the line of cars delayed behind them…
      I’d say at least once a week I have a encounter with a bicyclist in one way or another due to their disrespect or ignorance of the rules and self preservation.

      Portland has a long term plan to continue to forced phase out of autos and increasing mass transit and bike streets. Can’t say that I’m to excited to be riding a bike or bus in my 70’s in the rain (it does do that a lot here in Portland).

      That being said, the licensing scheme is an excuse for more taxes and control, which is pretty much par for the course here. They are desperate for ways to bring in more revenue having squandered it for years and neglected our roads and water system. Here is one example.

      We hope to be out soon.

  2. That’s what we did with our kids, we spaced out their vaccinations. The MMR is really difficult to isolate into 3 different vaccines. We couldn’t find a provider that had individual vaccines for mumps, rubella, and measles.

    • Yes it is about impossible to break up MMR. So what you can do is do MMR only, do another one next time. etc.

  3. Great talk on the vaccination front Jack! Is there a way you can set just that part of the show up so we can share that with others? Or maybe a time stamp so we can narrow it down for those that do not want to listen to the whole show? There is lost of information there I would love to share! Thanks for the work you do!

  4. I remember when I was a kid my mother took all of us kids over to some ones house because their kid had measles. The reasoning was that you may as well get it over with. The consequences today are unthinkable. Yes she knew the risk. She lost her second born to measles several years earlier. Strong minded woman.

  5. Jack states “my real concern with the vaccinations…is the shear number and frequency of them and how many are done at one time…when you vaccinate you are basically shocking their immune system into a response. And I just simply believe that the vaccination schedules we ran in the 1980s were more than sufficient than the ones we run today.”
    As proof, Jack uses the mortality rate resulting from fatal reactions to the vaccine versus the unvaccinated mortality rate. This is NOT a valid comparison. The mortality rate following vaccination is always an overestimate because a certain number of people would get sick and die following the vaccination just by chance–correlation is not causation. More importantly, the mortality rate for diseases which vaccinations are available in a country where most are vaccinated is LOWERED by the fact that the disease is nearly eliminated by vaccinations (aka herd immunity). In addition, mortality rate is not always the correct parameter. In the case of measles, another misery measure should be used (such as days spent home sick).

    Jack says “It is not up to me to risk the safety of my child because of the perceived danger to yours.” This is like saying I don’t want to risk my child taking a drivers safety course, in order to keep from running into other drivers, because I don’t want my child to get hurt during the safety course. If it was shown that accidents are cut by 95% by taking the course, then we should all shame and fine others who refuse to take the course. Parents with unvaccinated kids put our children in danger for illogical reasons.
    All this fear over vaccines is simply a misunderstanding. The immune system is challenged every day by live viruses. Vaccines contain bits of (dead) viruses which teach our immune system to kill disease if ever we come in contact with it. All this fear was logical 100 years ago when medicine was not science-based, but now we have to consider medical recommendations based on their scientific evidence. Vaccinations are the greatest scientific discovery of all time, and before we modify the CDC Vaccination Schedule based on our gut-feelings we should understand how our feelings are shaped by history and fear-mongers.

    • This dismissal is always Jack’s response when his direct quotes are challenged. I quoted directly from your show, and responded to your points with clear rebuttals. If you are not going to take the time to understand counter-points, then you are closing your mind to being corrected on a subject for which you have no knowledge: i.e. medicine.
      You have a high IQ, but science has produced a mountain of knowledge which you dismiss if it goes against your instincts.
      If you are up to it, I will call into the show and will debate you on vaccines and let your listeners decide what info is correct.
      We are having a revival of whooping cough and measles because people such as yourself make medical recommendations with insufficient knowledge of the subject.

      • The sole purpose of a government is to protect rights. My choice to not vaccinate my hypothetical kids doesn’t violate anybody’s rights. It just doesn’t.

        Not to mention, if vaccines work so well (which I’m pretty damn sure they do) just get your kids vaccinated. And don’t worry about other people’s kids. Not your problem don’t worry about them (incidentally following that advice will drastically drop cortisol levels).

        The only argument to be made is in cases where someome is allergic to a vaccine, however the chance of a kid who’s allergic to a vaccine getting sick because somebody was too stupid to vaccinate their kid is freaking tiny. But the chance is there. If it’s unconstitutional to charge somebody because they might committ a crime (forget the term for it but it is), it’s certainly unconstitional to charge somebody because they might get somebody sick. It’s essentialy the same thing, but there isn’t even intent in the case of not getting a vaccination.

        However I fully understand the logic and utilitarian argument for heard immunity, but utilitarian ethics really don’t apply in a nation founded on individual liberty. It’s great for a communist country. And you can make the argument all day to convince people to get vaccines (I really think they’re a good idea) and show by example why they’re good, but you can’t fine and shame people to coerce them into it. Life liberty and the persuit of happiness and such.

        Also, if your kid gets sick because you didn’t vaccinate them, tough shit that’s your problem and your responsibility. Lady Liberty is a cold bitch.

        Jack what’s your take on mandating vaccinations only in public school? On the one hand of you choose to associate with an institution you chose to abide by their rules, but on the other hand you don’t really have a choice.

        • @Unentitled Millenial –
          I have a 2 year old, who’s now attending a private school that my wife works at. This school combines Montessori & Ayn Rand philosophies (if ever there was a school for Jack Spirko) ????
          Even at that school, I can’t send my son with nuts of any kind for lunch. Why? Because 2 year olds are messy, and when the consequences are severe, you don’t want to put someone elses child at risk. It’s not a socialist thing, it’s a “do unto others…” thing. Even if I wanted to, the school can’t take on the liability. There are children that have compromised immune systems or allergic reactions to vaccines that can’t be vaccinated, and they need the rest to be healthy for them to stay alive.
          My son is fully vaccinated, and not allergic to foods, so it’s not my fight; but assuming you have children one day, if one of them is severely allergic to food, or can’t get vaccinated for some reason, I assure you, you are not going to want to hear about someone else expressing their liberty to endanger your kid.

        • No nuts with 2 year olds, yea I agree. Kids that age put anything and everything to the mouth. Now by 1st grade if your child has a nut allergy it is your responsibility it is no longer mine. And with that, it is a certainty that banning nuts from middle school on up, is complete socialist stupidity.

      • @steven see alex’s response to you, he is always fair and even handed. Basically he says what I said, only nicer. May be you have a point, but the above doesn’t make it in a coherent way.

        You also didn’t quote me directly likely because you heard what you expected vs. what I said, we call that perception bias.

        Basically I read your post twice so I have no idea what they fuck you are trying to say but I got enough out of it to know I was improperly represented.

        If you believe you got it right you are either are wrong or failed to communicate it.. Do not blame me for either your failure to listen or your failure to communicate.

        • Jack says “You also didn’t quote me directly likely because you heard what you expected vs. what I said, we call that perception bias.”
          I wrote down what you said in today’s show. I stopped the playback and wrote sentence-for-sentence what you said and only removed a few repeated words. Compare my quotes to your show and you will see–though I know you will never do this because you think you are misquoted and then don’t follow up to find the truth.
          I know you don’t understand herd immunity. I tried to explain it to you. If you want more clarification, try

          Your dismissal attitude is disappointing, as I do enjoy the show b/c you have lots of knowledge on certain subjects.
          See that you are making the same logical fallacies in dealing with vaccines as some people do dealing with guns (e.g. argument from ignorance, appeal to antiquity, argument from personal incredulity, argument from final consequences, post-hoc, and maybe straw-man). If you re-listen to your podcast and find where you are making these logical fallacies, it will make all of your reasoning and arguments more powerful.
          You and Alex are correct that I should always write clearly.

        • Yes I dismiss you because yes in your rambling nonsense you do sound like you are saying what I didn’t say, again blame your own ability to communicate not to mention your lack of knowledge as to what the return key does.

          Next I do know what heard immunity is and I sort of resent our masters referring to us as a fucking heard.

          Next I never once stated that people should not get vaccinated. I stated we do too much too fast. I know YOU don’t have a damn clue what that means. You likely think it means get some and avoid others, it doesn’t it means space out the vaccines instead of stacking them all at once.

          Next all your bullshit is ignoring the point, the point was never about vaccinations in and of themselves, it was about the media’s bullshit hype about how dangerous measles is. The numbers show that to be the case but like most people who just use these harsh drugs on their children with no thought at all, you can’t comprehend that because anything that even acknowledges any risk to vaccinations is seen is “anti vaxer nuttism”.

          See you say I am arguing against vaccines, that is putting words in my mouth. My position as stated in summary.

          I believe vaccines work and while they have some risks the risks for most people are low.

          I believe that the MMR mostly is effective, but it does have risks and each person has a right to fucking decide what drugs go or don’t go into their fucking body, is that clear? If you take any other position then this, what you are saying is that it is acceptable for the state to use the point of a gun to force a person to be injected with a drug.

          I believe due to the RISKS of vaccination that doing as many as we do per round increases said risk. To say this isn’t true ignores the most basic math and logic.

          So the way to counter this is to follow the schedule from the 80s (slightly modified to include the new vaccines) so that the injections are spread out and therefore the ability to notice any adverse reactions is increased and any potential damages are mitigated.

          I also believe the current pile of bullshit soup coming from our media outlets about how dangerous measles is is well, total bullshit. That measles is no where near as dangerous as they make you believe by citing stats about death in third world shit holes. To support this I used the vaulted CDCs own data points.

          Let me add something I didn’t say yesterday. The MMR is a LIVE virus vaccine. The reality is once vaccinated a person can spread the disease to the immune compromised we seem so concerned about. This effect PER THE FDA is likely to occur for at least 7 days, and anyone recently vaccinated should stay away from anyone with a immune system that is compromised for a total of 14 days. Again this is from the FDA.

          What this means is your vaccinated child is MORE LIKELY to spread the measles then someone else’s unvaccinated child.

          Now you want to know why I am dismissive of you? Because I recognize your type, I know where you are coming from. You are an obeyer of all things vaccine. If I had “insert the name of the God of your choice here” stand before you and say, “what Jack says is true”, you still would not believe it. And as such every calorie burned and every second crossed in typing this response to you was likely wasted and instead could have been spent doing something productive.

        • OH and have you read the FDAs own warnings about the side effects of MMR and the other childhood vaccines? Let me guess no right. Have you read the actual inserts that come with the vaccines? Let me guess no right.

          Oh one more thing, when was your personal last MMR booster? You know they don’t last forever right? You know that YOU could personally be spreading measles, mumps or rubella right now right, let me guess no, you didn’t know that. Do you even know what rubella is?

        • @Steven here you go this is what comes with a vile of MMR vaccine, it is 11 pages long and most of that discussed side effects and adverse reactions. Perhaps you should read about the risks of what you claim is perfectly safe, or should I go back to being dismissive of you?

          While your at it go here, you can get the inserts for all the other safe vaccines.

          I am sorry but when I read this, I find shoving 9 different vaccines into a child at one time, reckless and completely irresponsible.

        • As a parent actually getting kids vaccinated currently. This issue is right in my face. We have been taking the slow approach: I actually looked at the data of the ones that were highly contagious or transmissible, what age they were most disabling or fatal, etc., and made a list order of priority.

          For example, whooping cough is so dam easy to transmit because adults think they just have a bad cold, they don’t limit there movement and can spread that crap to infants in the store or at the restaurant. It is bad stuff for babies, I just think it is dumb to risk it, so we vaccinated. Did I wish we didn’t have to get it as a combo DTAP, yeah, but you can’t get just a pertussis shot.

          In the same breath, did we get the hepatitis shots, no, because the methods of transmission are generally sharing needles and unprotected sex, so those are a bit unnecessary at the moment. I will tell the kids when they get older, they need to consider it if their lifestyle goes down that road (Lord, I hope not).

          I think the real issue with measles is the fact that kids can get the disease before they can get the shot. They don’t recommend MMR until 18 or 24 months. We didn’t get our first MMR for our oldest son until he turned 4. His brother is just now 2, we might do him early if this measles issues really starts to take off. We were trying to keep any vaccinations to one a year after they hit 2, but we may double up on his brother this year.

          I do agree with much of the medical community that our bodies are constantly fighting off things in the hundreds and thousands everyday of our lives. I think the point of contention (no pun intended) is the fact that shots are an invasive process that bypass our natural points of invasion (cuts, food, lungs, etc) so how does that really interact not to mention the other items floating in the brew. Everybody wants to make a big deal of the mercury or some other trace compound, but you probably get plenty of mercury from fish you eat. I love sushi, I don’t want to live in a bubble, so can I really get up-in-arms about every possible outcome?!?

          I think everybody needs to stop and take a breath. I think everybody thinks their kid is the exception to the rule, but the mathematical probability is that their kid and their life is going to be close in many ways to everybody else’s, so get over yourself. But people win the lottery, right?!?

        • I am leaving my response to Jack’s Feb 3 comment here.
          I will repeat the quote from the show:
          Jack states “my real concern with the vaccinations…is the shear number and frequency of them and how many are done at one time…I just simply believe that the vaccination schedules we ran in the 1980s were more than sufficient than the ones we run today.”
          Then the quote from your reply Feb 3 (below):
          “Next I never once stated that people should not get vaccinated. I stated we do too much too fast. I know YOU don’t have a damn clue what that means. You likely think it means get some and avoid others, it doesn’t it means space out the vaccines instead of stacking them all at once.”
          Which is it? Should we return to 1980s vaccination schedule or take all vaccinations and spread them out?
          You also state in your Feb 3 reply
          “Next all your bullshit is ignoring the point, the point was never about vaccinations in and of themselves, it was about the media’s bullshit hype about how dangerous measles is.”
          I agree that the media is hyping the danger of measles.
          You say below:
          “you can’t comprehend that because anything that even acknowledges any risk to vaccinations is seen is “anti vaxer nuttism”. ”
          I acknowledge risks, and always consider the cost-benefit.
          The cost-benefit for measles vaccination is that benefits outweigh the costs.
          I see below that you have modified your view of total vaccines needed:
          “So the way to counter this is to follow the schedule from the 80s (slightly modified to include the new vaccines) so that the injections are spread out and therefore the ability to notice any adverse reactions is increased and any potential damages are mitigated.”
          Is this necessary? If multiple vaccinations taken together cause more problems than the many additional trips to the pediatrician, then this might be warranted. What is the evidence for the need to space them out?
          Another quote from below:
          “OH and have you read the FDAs own warnings about the side effects of MMR and the other childhood vaccines? Let me guess no right. Have you read the actual inserts that come with the vaccines? Let me guess no right.”
          Warnings for pharmaceuticals include any effects anyone had after the administration; and are not necessarily caused from the drug. You see a very long list of potential side effects for any drug. I wish the FDA would change their protocol for side-effect inclusion.
          It would be easier to take you seriously, Jack, if you would stick to arguing against what I have said, instead of dropping F bombs and attacking me personally (poisoning the well fallacy and ad hominem) and arguing against things I never said (straw man fallacy).

        • First you still don’t know what a return key is I guess and I have no desire to try to read your jumbled mess of crap.

          I do get your MISUNDERSTANDING about the 80s schedule comment. This doesn’t mean only do the vaccines we had in the 80s, it means following the frequency model of the 80s. I figured since you are so switched onto this topic you would know that. Anyway you are still trying to twist my words and I have important shit to do.

        • I, also, fatigue of this exchange. I have only 1 remaining challenge: Return to this exchange in a year (and/or when an outbreak of vaccine-preventable disease occurs) and see if your responses are appropriate; more importantly if you are proud of your responses.

      • @Steven
        Vaccines are: “bits of (dead) viruses which teach our immune system to kill disease….”
        Wrong. You attempt to make a strong argument, then cut yourself down with a strawman nonsense like this. “What isn’t there to like? Its dead and harmless and we’re teaching our immune system to kill disease.” Do you really think your body doesn’t know how to kill disease? Seriously?

        “All this fear was logical 100 years ago when medicine was not science-based, but now we have to consider medical recommendations based on their scientific evidence”

        That statement makes zero sense. How can something be logical, but then NOT be logical because “science” came around? I must only conclude you don’t know what logical means or made quite the logical error. When people like yourself make statements like that, I already know you have zero credibility because so long as “science” (whatever that may mean) says its “ok” you thumbs up it. Not exactly showing critical thinking and or thinking beyond the orthodoxy (dogma) only put in place in the last, I dunno 70 years.

        I don’t know your position on other health related topics, but vaccines aren’t some sort of “snow white” super outlier that is completely out of scope with the way the REST of modern medicine works. Everything is a condition that should have a SOMETHING thrown at it. (It costs money AND its by companies who supply it directly to doctors to prescribe, its QUITE the direct correlation I assure you). Look at the epidemic caused by modern medicine of C-Sections. My state, last I heard is sitting around 40% c-section rate and something like an 80% epidural rate. I can’t remember the specifics but it was close to those numbers.

        Just like anything else real viruses, and one’s ability to fight them come from living systems adapting, NOT from inputs. It’s the same scenario anywhere you look today. “What we need is this static input”. It’s the same technique all around you of how to fix other living systems. Got bugs or fungus? “Screw it throw chemicals at it. Hell let’s just do it as a precautionary measure.”

    • @Steven, I found your response a little difficult to follow. I definitely had the feeling that I should have read your response three times to make sure I understood what you meant. I suggest restating your argument in fewer words. No one is going to read your post 3 times. I certainly didn’t.

      My most difficult task in writing the history segments is boiling down arguments so that they can be understood by listeners the first time through because they aren’t going to hit “rewind.”

      FYI… I cut out half of the words in this posting before I hit “Send”. Really.

      Alex Shrugged

  6. Regarding whether the fascist, Benito Mussolini, held Jews in concentration camps… well… he certainly resisted Hitler when it came to rounding up Jews for mass murder, but here is what he did do…

    1. Stripped Jews of their Italian citizenship.
    2. Prohibited intermarriage between Jews and Italians.
    3. Removed Jews from critical government positions.

    Did he do this because he didn’t like Jews? Heck no. He was humping the heck out of a Jewish woman, Margherita Sarfatti, who was called “The Jewish Mother of Fascism”. He seemed to like Jews just fine, but he wanted an alliance with Hitler.

    During the Holocaust, approximately 7,000 Jews were deported by train out of Italy to be murdered by Hitler.

    So… Jews did better in Italy than in Germany or Poland, but “better” is a relative term. If you were one of the 7,000, it was 100% bad.

    Alex Shrugged

    • Ooops! This comment belonged with episode 1510. I’m going to report it there. Please feel free to delete this one, Jack.

  7. FYI… I had the measles as a child. It was rough. I remember passing out. There is NO WAY I could have stayed at home alone to take care of myself with TV, a couple of aspirins and an ice pack on my head. I would have died.

    My mother really had her hands full and that may explain why so many mothers remained at home rather than at a 9-5 job. (The other reason was that no family had two cars.) Without vaccines, someone had to stay home to make sure their kids didn’t die. It may be that everyone is panicking because so many mothers (or fathers) must stay home and lose pay. It is hitting them right in the pocketbook.

    Just a guess.

    Alex Shrugged

  8. Regarding passing a law concerning vaccines… people who don’t vaccinate their children make me angry, but I don’t want to pass any law forcing them to vaccinate their children. Such decisions should remain between themselves and their doctor. If I have a problem with a particular person who failed to vaccinate their child, I’ll speak to them directly or shut my **** mouth.

    Alex Shrugged

    • You summed up my position perfectly. But there seems to be a piling on effect brewing to anti-vaxers that I don’t agree with either. It feels like what is happened with smokers. For too long people tolerated having their meals ruined by cigars in s restaurant, eventually you couldn’t smoke much of anywhere. Now they’re going after e-cigarettes which I really don’t understand at all, and actually seems counterproductive.

      • I think all that is going on now is more witch hunting which is creating more and more divisions between people. Jack, in my mind has fully summed this up correctly as bullshit soup.

        “GET EM ITS A SMOKER!”

        Causes two things to happen. A. People come after the targeted group. B. People joined the targeted group because the other people piss them off. People really shouldn’t ignore the “F’ you” side of the things. I heavily tend to be part of that B category, so I have to watch myself from time to time.

        • It turns into that, but it starts out more as festering anger that finally gets released. Paying $150 for your family to eat at a nice restaurant and no one being able to smell the food because 1 guy on the other side of the restaurant, who’s done with his meal by the way, decided to light up a cigar, builds anger and resentment.
          Hearing your neighbor’s kid going through cancer treatment has to have their treatment delayed because they caught some preventable disease that needs to be treated first, builds anger.
          Then someone says, you shouldn’t be able to light up cigars in restaurants anymore, and people say YEAH! You should be forced to vaccinate your kids, and people say YEAH! And there’s some truth to what they say, but where do you draw the line? For smokers, I’d draw the line long before harassing people about e-cigarettes became a thought. For the anti-vax crowd, that remains to be seen because the backlash has just started, is CPS going to start taking kids away from their parents? Are they going to be forced to stay home from school? Are they going to be fined? This can get scary really fast.

          What if a school allows a kid to attend without vaccinations and they catch something… what happens to the school? Are they financially liable? If the answer’s yes, then guess what the next step becomes for every kid in the country to attend any type of school. And that’s not socialism, that’s self preservation and fiduciary responsibility at work.

        • @Modern Survival –
          Do you see that happening any time soon?

          In a world with no compulsory education, most people would still need to work during the week. Most people would want their kids to receive some form of education, and a place for them to be safe, socialize with other children etc. So there’d likely be a huge grab bag of private owned schools that would teach anything there’s a market for. But, if those schools, are held liable for a child contracting polio in their facility. They’ll still act out of self interest to require vaccinations prior to attendance.

          But that’s just off the cuff speculation on my part, I reserve the right to change my mind if I give it more thought.

        • Do I see it happening soon, yes if 10-15 years is soon in the world of human history I do.

          What I think would happen is some schools would specifically NOT require vaccines and any CUSTOMER contracting there would have to sign a wavier as such. Such schools would likely be full of those evil “anti vaxers” leaving most schools to those who want 100% vaccination.

          Once again demonstrating that the market is a better system than the state.

        • I’ve only worked in California. So my opinion might be tainted by an absurd court system that may not be the same in the rest of the country. But I have not found good luck with wavers. In fact, I have found them to be detrimental, as the opposing lawyer and the judge tend to use them as proof you knew what you were doing was wrong, and you just tried to pass the buck with a piece of paper, while still making your money. The irony of what THEY do for a living is completely lost on them by the way.

          If the vaccine argument is still at such an impass 10-15 years from now, with no outside interference, then I would speculate that the public school system would dedicate certain schools as “no vax” schools or something. But I doubt that the debate will be in that position, there will be studies monitoring autism rates between non-vaccinated kids and vaccinated kids that will be published, and studies on how diseases spread now that our children are not 100% vaccinated like we were 20 years ago. The science is going to come down on 1 side or the other before 2030.
          Also, I think it is far more likely that this be declared a “state of emergency” a “humanitarian health crisis” and/or a “national security threat” by the federal government before the government relinquishes control of education.

        • I dont know if this reply is going to the right spot in this thread — but, anyways. USCprepper, I live in California also and am a parent that has used vacination waivers, and I do not understand your comment on them not working. I have never heard of a school that doesnt accept them. They are simple forms, so there is no way to show the partially vaccinated kids very well, it is too complicated, so alot of waivers are for kids that have some or most of the traditional vaccines, but maybe not the newer ones. The new thing this year is to require a doctor signature that you were “counseled” this is very easy to get, but is a waste of time and money for the family and is just realy irritating people that they have to spend more money and waste more time to get it.

        • I was referring to how the courts treat private small businesses. I too know of no school that doesn’t accept the waivers. However, I have a lot of teachers in my family, and I’m hearing there are plans in place for those kids to be forced to stay home during “outbreaks” whatever that will end up meaning.
          Jack’s scenario was small privately owned schools, that some would be for vaccinated kids, and some for no vaccination kids with waivers. When it’s a small business, the courts look at waivers very differently than they do if a public school has the waiver. As an example: “I see that you made my client sign this form, before loading up his truck, was that because you knew it was unsafe to put this amount of weight on that size truck? If you knew it was unsafe, then why’d you do it? You are the expert, that’s why he was buying from you!” “Does your company typically take such a cavalier attitude toward workplace safety?” Etc. Etc. Etc.
          Either way, in California, the business owner ends up screwed. The only way to fully inoculate yourself from liability is to refuse to do something that appears dangerous in the first place, because the legal standard is whether it’s foreseeable. And yes, having a room full of kids that aren’t vaccinated for ___ virus, it is foreseeable that if 1 became a carrier of ___ virus, the rest could be infected, I certainly wouldn’t want to stand in a CA court and try to argue otherwise.

        • Ok, but, my kids went to private schools in California more often than public, and the waivers are exactly the same as the public school ones. I do not think they have a higher burden of proof or liability. On the contrary, I think it is a state law that applies to all schools public or private, the law being that certain list of vaccines are required, and in small letters, unless you have a waiver. The forms are the same, mandated California department of health proof of vaccination forms.

          I now see what ModernSurvival wrote, and that is a thinking out loud exercise of Libertarian possibility. Most likely in this state is that separate schools would never be seen as fair(especially since the nonvaccine ones would likely have better student test scores — not due to vaccines, but due to family socioeconomic differences), they will all go together, one way or the other.

          And, dont even get me started on the nut allergy thing — one of my children was briefly at a school that was trying to make a thing out of that, but how can that be fair to my child ? Is someone else going to be giving us money to buy expensive ersatz sandwich food for my dairy allergic vegetarian child — my kids eat nuts big time !!

        • The plans to have non vaccinated children stay home from school during outbreaks is not new, and not a school decision. That is standard California Department of Health guideline/requirement. Everyone that signs the vaccine waiver is aware of this. It is obstensively for the health and safety of the non-vaccinated family, but in any case is Californias public health policy

        • @Mountainmoma –
          I’m not a lawyer, so I really feel out of my depth at this point. If I was to guess, it sounds like a lawyer advised that a waiver would likely not hold up in court if there was a serious enough case, but a Dr.’s note stating that you were “counseled” and a Dr.’s signature will probably do the trick.
          I’ve never run a school either public or private. My wife works for a private school, and I know that the CEO always seeks me out at any gathering and has a list of “You wouldn’t believe what the government tried now” stories he wants to tell me, and it sure doesn’t seem like the government is holding public schools to the same standard as they are holding him to.
          When I was an employee for other business owners, every company trained me that if something seemed dangerous, refuse to do it and get a supervisor involved. Now that I’m the boss, I see why, and it’s exactly the same reasons that I was given. Even with a signed waiver, the courts expect a certain standard of conduct, and that always somehow means the business owner is liable. I would assume that would apply to private schools as well, but again, I’m not a lawyer.

        • I guess I wasnt clear. I wasnt asking your opinion of it, I was letting you know how it operates right now. The waivers, and the new sign off of being counseled by a doctor are not school rules made by individual schools, it is a state rule for all schools. This whole thing came up last year and a new California state law was adopted that any parents using a vaccination waiver had to first get na appointment with their pediatrition and get “counseled” about the benefits of vaccines, to ensure they were making an informed decision, and the doctor needs to sign the waiver proving that the parents had this pro-vaccine counseling before making this decision. So, the compromise between the two groups was already made last year, and we can now see that the parents who choose not to do all vaccines on the states scheduale, who didnt fight this new law just last year, are being villified and that nothing will ever be enough for the other people in the state who like to control everything.

          What I realy wanted to point out to you though, is that this are not individual school decisions, they are not decisions made by small private businesses, at least not in California, the protocol and law is a state wide mandate made by the state government. So, there is no liability by the small private schools when they are following state public health law.

        • Forgot this part, the new rule for the doctor visit and counseling are only for new waivers, which you get only when starting a new school. ANy existing waivered kids families dont need to do anything until the child changes schools (moves up to Jr high, for example). So, this means the ones who like to control everything are not even waiting to find out if this makes a difference

  9. I wonder if Jack would want to get Doc Bones and/or Nurse Amy on to discuss the theory of “Community Immunity” and how a critical percentage (% dependent upon which communicable disease) of immunized individuals is enough to prevent an outbreak.

    I don’t know enough to have an informed opinion, however it does make since to me. If the theory is based in fact, the most concern people have about those who choose not to immunize lose most of the argument in that the strongest argument is that “those who choose not to immunize threaten those around them”. However if the theory holds water the answer is “If you are concerned get yourself immunized and your family immunized and if others get ill, it is their issue, not the communities”.

    If the theory is BS, perhaps we should look at it further.

    Caviat emptor: I will not listen to today’s show until tomorrow and Jack may have covered this already.

    • Been thinking of that since Bones is a an MD and Amy and NP and they have those fancy initials the sheeple respect because they have been taught to.

      What I find sad is my point isn’t anti vaccine, it is get the vaccines but spread them out over more time and do fewer at a time and for that I am lumped in with anti vaccine conspiracy people solely because I respect their right to abstain. This shows most Americans to be pre programed drones. My other point and my main one isn’t about vaccines, it is about the over hyping of the threat of measles.

      I wonder how many people that claim vaccines pose NO RISK have actually read the fucking warning labels on the god damn vaccines that are printed by the manufactures of the same, I am calling you out Steven, have you read the actual warning labels on the vaccines? Here from the FDA itself,

      • I hadn’t commented on this point, but I’ll do it now.

        Trust me, I 100% got your point about it being about the bullshit soup and the HYPE. Its the same everywhere you go. People use hype and hysteria to try and make you cave into doing something. The agenda is to get people to pay attention, so therefore, its really a simple formula.

    • I know too many doctors personally to automatically grant godhood to any one of them. However, they are well-studied so their opinion matters to me. I treat them as my advisors. Not my keepers.

      In the past I have been bullied by doctors. There was a reason for that. My child’s life was at stake and they needed information… not sympathetic hand-holding. They called me to and I reported to them like any raw recruit. I saw the need for that at the time and I see no reason to change my mind now.

      But non-emergency situations are not like that. No need to treat doctors like generals or gods.

  10. My take on the bullshit of the world: “everything in the universe is perfect, including your desire to change it.” -Fortune cookie. I’ve come to the realization that the whole world is going to keep fighting and bitching and people are going to keep being stupid no matter how much i try to give myself an aneurysm at 20 stressing out about it, so I’m just gonna go over here, drink some peppermint tea from plants I grew, put on some Odesza and Blackmill, mix mortar, and use it to make functional beauty with stone. Work on getting towards my business. And move towards self sufficiency so I have to worry even less about the bullshit of the world. It’s a zen-like inner peace that’s honestly amazing.

  11. OK Jack, Since you brought up licensing bicycle operators…
    Here’s a guy that explains why the government breaks the constitution and gets away with it through trickery. Vietnam Vet, claims that top brass from every branch took their top soldiers aside and explained to them about the government and why it’s all fked up.
    Looks like we never needed a license to drive a car if it’s not for commerce.

    Here’s another link with Supreme Court citations…

  12. Jack, I must disagree with you on your being wrong, pigs/hogs will absolutely eat chickens. You shoulda been around here back during the war, it was grandma vs. the registered Duroc boar grandpa and my dad bought. We did learn that most of the time they have a hard time catching a chicken if you allow enough room for the chickens to out maneuver them, but if the chickens get into a smallish pen hogs will turn them into breakfast. Most of the time they leave little to no evidence just a mysterious chicken disappearance.

      • Yeah, there are a number of factors:

        The breed of pig
        The pig’s access to other forms of protein (and food in general)
        The pig’s breed
        The pig’s individual personality
        The chickens’ behavior (are they keeping a wide berth, are they living harmoniously with the pigs, or are they harassing it.)

        Durocs do strike me as a breed that would be more prone to eating Chickens than, say, American Guinea Hog for example.

    • Yeah, animals tend to do weird things when they are confined. I’m sure pigs have eaten chickens, but when both are kept in a more natural environment, and both are healthy, I have found it to be highly unlikely.

  13. Will governments set up “special bike police” to patrol the neighborhoods and catch those without bike licensing?

  14. My concern with vaccines is the list of ingredients in them. Have you ever seen the list? I would rather eat foods or take supplements that enhance my immune system than ever take a jab.

    • I have read the ingredients and I have also looked into the amounts per doze, that changes a lot of perspective.

      I am for your right to refuse any vaccine but that doesn’t mean I think you should do so. The flat scientific reality is vaccines do work and if a disease is a real risk to your health they make sense.

      Polio, Small Pox, etc are life threatening illnesses and if they don’t kill they often cripple and disfigure. Do we need to vaccinate for Chicken Pox though? Some say it prevents shingles. Well many are now saying it is actually causing more cases of shingles in younger and younger people. Because those of us in our 40s had the pox but by not being “boosted” via exposure to others with them in our 20-30s like most parents were in the past are likely to contract shingles at a younger age.

    • Hard to know what to believe any more. But the departments explanation sounds plausible.

  15. My problem with the whole vaccine debate is that there is no room for choice. If you don’t give all the shots on the CDC schedule to your kids, then you are anti-science. There is no room for negotiating which shots are applicable or negotiating the timeline under which the shots are given. I’m 28 years old and when I was born in 1986, the number of shots was so much less. Now that I’m getting ready to have a baby, I tend towards giving my baby the same amount of vaccines that I got on roughly the same schedule (it will probably be drawn out so that I can do single shots at a time), but to the pro-vaccine crowd, I would be anti-science and putting other kids in jeopardy. There’s just no room for choice and I think that is part of what is pushing so many parents to re-think things – that and it’s pretty much a human experiment to keep increasing the number of injections without long-term studies on the immune system.

    Science has been wrong a myriad of times and the vaccines don’t always work. My friend’s kid got whooping cough even though she had all the vaccines on the CDC schedule. My grandma has never been vaccinated and is 87 years old healthy as can be except for her asthma. And, most all vaccines wear off by adulthood so if other kids really were in jeopardy, all adults should be immunized too. Disease/illness is all about the strength of the immune system and there are so many ways to keep that system strong with and without injections.

    Human beings are so individual which is why medicine needs to tailor to the individual, not to some govt or societal standard. There’s so much fear on both sides of the vaccine argument that it’s sickening.

    • @Brooke I find that to be completely untrue. Many doctors are happy to work with people to spread out vaccines if you simply ask them to.

      What most doctors do balk at is complete refusal to vaccinate.

    • I really hope you are right, Jack. I haven’t done my pediatrician interviews yet, but I’ve been told it’s hard to negotiate vaccines with them…at least it is around my area.

      • Brooke do your pediatrician interviews way BEFORE you have your baby. As a woman who is a couple of years older than you and have two small children myself, I interviewed several pediatricians before I found one who would work for my family. We do a delayed schedule and my pediatrician is fine with it, as long as I do vaccinate. She will refuse to see you if you choose to refuse all vaccines forever. But I think you will find you can get recommendations for pediatricians that will work with you from your local Holistic Moms group or La Leche League. Another invaluable resource is The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears. It’s very middle of the road and doesn’t take a side. It’s just facts, ingredients, etc and at the end of each vaccine chapter, he’ll give his opinion about whether he thinks its a necessary vaccine or not. Hope that helps. Seriously though, reach out to other like-minded moms in your area for recommendations so you don’t waste your time interviewing doctors that aren’t open-minded.

    • Brooke,

      Read the info that comes with the shots, they tell you the level of immunity that is the general rule of thumb with each dose. Not one of them will tell you 100% by the last dose. You are only trying to stack the deck in your favor, but like much of life, nothing is 100%, and I think that is were most people think they have been ‘lied’ to.

      No, the problem generally is, people only want the executive summary of information because they already have too much going thru their heads, and don’t want to spend too much time on something that seems ‘done’. And then you have people giving executive summaries of the first executive summary, and on and on, to the point that the original information is lost in translation, and then everybody feels cheated or lied to.

      I don’t think vaccines manufactures are guilt of malice or trying to ‘control’ us. I think the issue of what these diseases look like and what vaccines are is just complex enough that people just don’t want to know, and want to blame someone else for the imperfect world we all life in.

      Probably the best medicine for everybody in a successfully vaccinated country such as the USA (by-and-large) is to travel beyond our borders and see what countries that don’t have these vaccines readily available looks like, and then circle the wagons and see if you still feel the way you do.

      I really think we take many things for granted here that we become very dumb on how insulated and good our lives are compared to many others places.

      The ‘Noble Savage’ is a myth, and I think Hobbs was right when he said without some of the social constructs the results are: “…no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”

    • The wife and I are in a similar position as you brooke and I think we’re definitely completely in agreement. Nice to see other 28 year olds in the exact same boat with the exact same no-nonsense cautioned/calm approach.

  16. Why do these vaccine fanboy type people even care if others take them or not? If you are so pro-vaccine and you’ve taken yours, why are you so worried about getting sick from unvaccinated people? If your precious vaccines work so well (which I believe many of them actually do) you’re protected and it’s not your problem!

    This entire arguement is bullshit to me. If the vaccine works and you don’t want to get sick take the damned vaccine and stop whining about people that don’t because you’re protected even if they do get sick! Isn’t that the WHOLE POINT of getting the vaccine in the first place?

    Clearly this has nothing to do with protecting anyone. It’s just another example of socialists trying to force their will on others.

    Unless I’m missing something here this seems pretty obvious…

    • Because the TV says that those who don’t vaccinate are going to kill poor little children and the believe the TV. That in a nutshell is why.

    • See one of my replies above…

      The simple fact is that certain vaccines they do not recommend until certain ages. If you have measles floating around in such a pervasive state (which it does, it can linger in the air for some time) and you have a 9 month old, you have effectively been quarantined without your consent. To do so, you could be effectively signing your kids death warrant.

      I told my parents it would be a cold day in hell before they could take care of the babies if they didn’t get a booster for pertussis before the babies could get a dose. They like going out places, and will surely pick things up along the way, if they were to give the kid whooping cough, and end-up with asthma or other respiratory problems for life, I don’t think they would be able to look at themselves in the mirror for something so silly. The kid dying might be the easier path.

      This issue is much like the two camps of food poisoning and sanitary issues with food prep and cooking. Their are those that have had food poisoning and those who have not.

      • The reality is the causality link of “I did or didn’t do X, that’s why Y happened” is just not the way things typically unfold. At least I don’t really see many people doing it. Especially with health unless you have a specific case you know of (Insidious on here recently came down with a baaaaad flu case) you really have no idea what the causes are. Especially some sort of long term thing like “asthma”. Since medicine and the healthy industry typically don’t care about causes (it would seem), root reasons aren’t ever found, typically because its too difficult.

  17. That bicycle improvement fund is crazy. They just built a bike and walkway bridge over the river at a cost of a few billion. Now they need a way to fund it. Meanwhile other bridges are ready to fall in.

    Also, half the bikers have a superiority complex and skip the rules of the road. So, that is the other excuse. Personally, I feel you should just be allowed to run them over if they roll through a stop sign, problem solved 🙂 Do we need a license and theft… NO spot on with that one.

  18. When I read through all the vaccination arguments on the internet and flooding my facebook feed, I find myself thinking that the anti-vax crowd doesnt’ fully understand vaccinations (how they work, heard immunity etc.) and the full on vaccination-at-all-cost crowd doesnt’ fully understand liberty or personal choice.

    Heaven forbid someone reseach both sides of the issue, decide for yourself, and once you have made that choice be open to the idea that someone else may look at the same set of facts and make a different choice.

    Now that I think about it, that pretty much goes for every issue on my facebook feed! 🙂

  19. I have also noticed how the media is playing up all illnesses now, to such a degree that an older neighbor of mine actually was confused by the mainstream news where they were talking about the flu and measles at the same time, and he thought that people were dying of the measles ( I am in California). It seems obvious that this is aimed at being divisive and turning people against each other and/or to get people more used to controlling each others decisions.

    I had someone realy angry last week at me because I think this is family choice, and they said “what about the kid getting over leukemia ? ” But, all they could do was parrot the media and couldnt see that measles would be the least likely for that kid, this years flu is way more wide spread and deadly, we’ve got people bringing Tb into the state, etc… and 60% of people who measles this month are vaccinated adults…..

    For my family, I didnt pay attention when my 2 oldest were young, which was the ’90’s, and they just got what the doctors said, until they were young teens and the newer one that could only be transmitted via sex/drugs came out — by then, I said no.

    For my youngest, I thought about each one, the risks and benefits. She received none until about 2 years old, and then she got the dT, as I live on an old horse property and Tetnus, while hard to get, is deadly and horrid to treat. She caught the whopping cough when she was about 16months old from either her siblings or classmates of theirs. Many do not know this, but the Pertusis vaccine does not keep most from getting it, it only reduces the severity, so the vaccinated kids do get it and are carriers — they get a cough that sticks around for weeks or months. People just realy need to keep little babies away from sick kids, unknown kids, etc….by the time a baby has enough Pertusis vaccine immunity, they are big enough(in most cases) to not be high risk. Anyways, she was a big healthy 16 month old, and it was certainly tiring for me, but not a big deal for her, she just coughed until she threw up about every 2 hours, I upped nursing her more as that is absorbed quickly, so she was never low on food or liquids. This was for a few weeks, then it gets less harsh and she had the nagging cough that all the vaccinated 2nd graders that passed it to her had had. Now that she is in 11th grade, I had told her she should get the measles vaccine, which will likely need to be the mixed MMR, before this media frenzy had come up just based on her being female and older. It was becoming obvious that she was never going to get it naturally and the biggest danger of measles is getting it while pregnant as if it is during the right gestational time, it can cause birth defects. We managed to get here exposed to chicken pox, so she has had that naturally. It has become difficult to do this, but certain social groups share this information so that the kids can get together and expose the others.

  20. Yes, pigs eat chickens. We had this last fall. At least two adult chickens where killed and eaten by my young boar, he doesn’t do it anymore. Why the change? He’s always gotten enough food, the young sows never have nor do they. I never had this in 15+ yrs until this year. These pigs are more heritage breed than domestic so maybe the “wild” is in them more. I really don’t know.

  21. I am so happy you weighed in on the vaccine issue. Back in the day when the chicken pox vaccine came out I said to myself “they want every child to get it but it has no long term studies for efficacy or side effects. I started researching. I can no longer find stand alone fatality stats for the MMR but they were on CDC website in the late ’90’s. The MMR vaccine has a higher fatality rate than whooping cough (the rubella, the R in MMR). I thought about that… why would a vaccine with a higher fatality rate than the disease be promoted? The only thing I could come up with is that a case of childhood whooping cough takes 1 adult out of the work force for 2 weeks…. the MMR is about productivity, not about the safety of our children.

    • MMR is not for whooping cough. MMR is Measles, Mumps, Rubella. The DTP is Diptheria, Tetnus, Pertusis (Whooping cough)

    • I think the current hoopla is about losing pay by staying home with sick children. These are serious childhood diseases. I know. I had most of them. They suck like a Hoover. You can’t leave your kids home alone with such diseases and you can’t pay someone enough money to care for your kids while you go to work.

      Secondly… I remember clearly mothers organizing “Measles Parties.” These were considered foolish and dangerous at the time but tolerated. When one kid amongst a group of mothers would get measles, the other mothers agreed to bring their children over to the house to play… thus… getting the disease out of the way.

      Was this dangerous? It was a lot more dangerous that what a vaccine will do to any given child, but the reasoning was that the kids would be getting the measles anyway and why not get it out of the way on some sort of schedule. If they could make it happen during summer break, the kids wouldn’t miss any school or interfere with a planned vacation etc.

      See the reasoning?

  22. Other than calling it MMR vs DPT the info is correct. Thank you for the correction Mountainmoma. It’s been 15 years since we opted out of the shotgun vaccine world.


  23. Yeah, a license for walkers…

    “If you take a walk I’ll tax your feet.”
    -The Beatles

  24. The thing that has been bugging me lately is that if I want to leave my state or council (county) area, I have to sell my home to someone else who might not know what they’re getting into! What really bugs me about it is that there is no disincentive to the government that I am trying to get away from.. They don’t care, someone is always going to be paying the rates / taxes, weather it’s me or the new owner, they don’t care. They’re in a win-win situation.

    • No that only works for so long. At some point selling gets hard, people walk away. Further who cares what they do, understand MOST people want big government, that is why we have it.

  25. I thought the plant propagation stuff was way more interesting than the 4-legs-good 2-legs-bad political bullshit. If only political bullshit could be composted… hmmm. ;p
    I was wondering if alkaline water would limit plant choices in a misting system? My ph is beyond 8.2(limit of pool test kit)

    • Yes jeff, highly alkaline water is a big issue in using a mist system. First because you will likely scale up the small orfices of the mist heads, and second because most plants do not like water that hard. I recommend people use rainwater catchment for areas where you have water that hard.

  26. One more thing about forced vaccinations…the moral argument.

    It is morally wrong… even more morally wrong than forcing a citizen to buy medical insurance as a condition of citizenship.

    I remember reading a story with a moral message.

    A group of travelers were put upon by angry men who demanded a tax for their passage. “Give us one of your group so that we may kill him and the rest of you may pass.”

    The travelers discussed it and decided that if the men had asked “Give us Fred or Susan” or anyone specific then they could discuss what the possible crime or revenge “Fred or Susan” might be involved with. But because the angry men were not specific, the travelers could not choose at random one of their number, an innocent, to be hurt or killed simply to save their own lives.

    The rule is “No man’s blood is redder than another’s.” (a paraphrase of Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin, 74b)

    This means that without a crime or violation or prior pledge (“I pledge to give my life in your service.”) or volunteer to distinguish one from another, I am not allowed to sacrifice another man’s life to save my own life or the life of my wife, son or daughter.

    Vaccinations can cause damage or death in a few. I think it is a reasonable chance to take, but others may disagree. Because it may cause damage or death to others I am not allowed to force you to vaccinate yourself or your wife or your children even though that fact might endanger myself or my wife or my own children.

    No man’s blood is redder than another. That is the moral argument.

  27. The vax posts reminded me of an ER visit aout 5 years ago. The girls were roughhousing and one of them ran into the corner of a counter with her forehead. At ER we had an European trained Doc. After he butterflied the forehead gash he asked us if we wanted a tetanus shot.

    I told him we are not anti-vaccine but what is the risk if we skip the tetanus, that I don’t see the point of a vaccine unless there is a clear and present risk.

    He looked me straight in the eye and in that english accent said “the counter corner is a pretty clean surface I’ll put you down as a refusal”