Episode-1042- Listener Feedback for 12-17-12 — 25 Comments

  1. Great show, as usual.

    On the wind/hydro system in AK: You’re right, with just lighting and entertainment, that’s easy to do on alternative energy. my big-screen LCD TV only pulls 65 Watts (says my Kill-A-Watt). I could run that and a DVD player 24×7 off one 200W solar panel and battery, 24x7x365, given enough solar exposure and battery capacity.

    Totally agree that alternative cooling methods are needed for the South. Structural considerations are very important, but also using what you have more efficiently is huge. A friend has a farmstead here in NC, and his HVAC is pre-cooled/preheated with a heat exchange with water from a 220-ft well (constant 55 degrees F). He’s document big savings on his electric bill.

  2. There needs to be a butcher/hunter education class so that hunters can learn bout butchering. Any hunter/butcher’s out there lookin’ for a way to build community?

    • I agree! I’m embarrassed to admit I am 31 and have hunted and fished all my life and to this day can only clean dove’s without problems. I’ve always had help with other game . I tried two squirrels this weekend and completely demolished them. I would definitely love a class!

  3. I’ve butchered my deer for years. However, I outsource the grinding to a local butcher that I know on a first name basis. I take my own steaks, roast, jerky meat prior to bringing the meat up. I like the way the package, and mix my deer meat with some good beef fat. Not only is it too expensive to have a deer skinned and butchered from the processor, but the quality is never as good. They make money by number of deer processed, not quality of meat. I may waste a little meat each year but the improved flavor keeps the wife happy.

  4. Your comments about off grid power were spot on! Designing the house to the energy system….is exactly what you need to do. I live 100% off grid in the northeast. My solar system is a couple panels and deep cycle batteries. I heat with wood, cook with propane, and can run lights, DSL, demand hot water, and well pump from my tiny little power system. Laptop computers, and iPads are the only electronics I power. For reference, I use between 5 and 15 amp hours from my 12V battery bank each day.

    Some numbers to back up your comments on micro-hydro. Imagine a *really* small turbine that produces 6 watts at 12 volts. Thats 12 amp hours of electricity each day. My solar system during the summer months produces about 30 watts for 4-5 hours per day….that translates into about 10-14 amp hours per day. During the winter months (now) I am lucky to “harvest” 3-4 amp hours per day and will fire up the generator every so often to charge my battery bank.

    If I had a 6W micro-hydro system I could smash my solar panels and never need to use my generator!

  5. Loved how you ended the show about not crapping on baby steps. I am thinking I am doing that to hubby sometimes. Am having a hard time with what to say. Why? Because every time he really gets to ” yes lets step things up!” It involves a gun purchase.

    Ugh I am so sick of having this conversation. Why do you want a gun? For protection is his response. Ok got it. But how about making sure all the smoke detectors work first, co2 detectors, dead bolts on the doors, a gate on the drive way, fencing, early alert down the driveway, locking the cars, or better yet how about ammo for the guns you already have? I have already budgeted $50 a month for ammo & that was 9 month ago. You haven’t been buying any. And Yes we already have a few guns SEVEN. (5 are from his childhood when he starting hunting.) I understand how he feels we need something “better”. But hey they work.

    Then I can’t seem to help myself I go off how about taking ME shopping for a gun? So I can have something that fits me. The shot gun we have comes up to my shoulder. It’s heavy and I hate shooting it. If it’s for protection I am the one who is alone all day. I’m out working the property all day. Animals or people could be a threat. I would think for that reason you would want me to be able to shoot if need be. You having a gun will not protect me while you are gone. I want something easy for me to shoot and cheap to practice Easy to keep clean and straight forward. A 4″22 revolver for my hip. That’s when I get the eye roll.

    Then in closing I say let me guess you want a glock or AR or something to carry daily? Something way cool. Yes would be his response. Fine where are you going to carry daily? You can’t have one on company property?Risk loosing your job? I don’t think that is wise.

    Then there is the money issue. The gun the holsters the ammo the licenses the training. No problem lets get the animal feed bill to zero and then use that money strictly for guns and ammo. Help me get the fencing up. He gives me another eye roll with a huff that says yeah ok.

    Needless to say this conversation or my rants as they can unfortunately end up leave me frustrated and near tears. I can just see the excitement drain from his face. I know he wants a new toy and he knows it too. However I also know he is truly thinking about safety when we are out and about. It’s like this is his part to do and I keep craping on it. I don’t mean to.

    Even if I say fine lets sit down and plan it out. Nope he has already shut down. Now I fear I have created a power struggle? We did go shopping a while back just so I could give a little. He picked out a gun he wanted I showed him what I thought I wanted and well mine was going to be much more expensive. (Dang don’t know how I always do that) So I suggested instead of buying 2 guns today lets just get one cheaper and some ammo. You can even buy an all black one. OR maybe just get ammo for the guns we have? What every you think is best.

    Dang this is getting old. I just don’t know what to do or say any more. I /we need some serious help in this area. I don’t want to crap on his ways. I can see his excitement fade. His reluctance to bring ideas to the table. This is starting to really cause some friction. Dumb I know any advice?

    Now with these shootings I know this topic is going to come up again like clock work. Thursday to be exact. lol wives know these things.

    • I certainly can’t tell you what you should do, but will throw in my experience just to give you something more to think about. I am a 54 yo woman. I got my first handgun years ago, .357 magnum, too big to carry. Then got a pretty little Taurus .38 revolver with rosewood grips. Small, easy to carry. Really sweet gun that I hope will become a family heirloom! Then heard the story of 3 different people mugged/carjacked. The two carrying a 9mm and a .38 were injured, both shot the perp, but he got a way, the guy with the .45 killed the perp with one shot. I took out my husbands .45 Glock and learned to love that gun! Let your husband get the Glock, but you carry it around the place when you are home alone. The .38 and especially the .22 don’t have near the stopping power of the .45, and if you are going to shoot you shoot to stop, which generally means kill, not to slow down. If you are working outside you should have the hand, arm, and upper body strength to handle the Glock, if you don’t, start lifting weights, or buckets of feed, or whatever. Now my .38 is just for fun, the Glock is what will save my life. Good luck getting this sorted out!

    • @Roundabouts I can sympathize. My husband has gotten better, laments that he hasn’t bought a new gun for himself in years. Last one he bought was for me, a 9mm (nothing smaller than that he says) which doesn’t seem to fit me well. He has offered to trade it for whatever I want to replace it with. Pepper spray I asked? I really think I’d be more comfortable carrying that first.

      I also point out that they don’t do us much good unloaded and locked in the gun safe. For when things get bad or investment he says. I’ve brought up training and he says if I sign up for concealed carry, and actually carry he will. But nuts to take any training otherwise because he has been shooting all his life. Insane to pay someone to teach me something he already knows.

      I did go out with him a couple of times, and he realized that 1. the gun he picked doesn’t fit me well and 2. I’m not the same as him, teaching me to shoot better not something he is as qualified to do as he thought (from nice couple on the gun range whose tips were quite helpful). Then I hurt my shoulder doing something else and stopped practicing, it has since healed.

      As I said, my husband is doing better. I can remember years back being very upset because he bought another gun on credit, without discussing it (But you’d say no) when we didn’t even have money for a vacuum cleaner because I wasn’t buying on credit, and I was shopping for clothes for the kids at garage sales (nothing wrong with garage sales, just that I was cutting all the corners I could to save money and pay off debt and he was buying more guns on credit cards because they were “needed” and a “great investment”. I had to borrow one from a friend. Not long after that he sold one of his guns and bought me a vacuum cleaner. Now when he works overtime he’d use that money for gun stuff, I’m good with that. He has done even better, now he buys stuff needed elsewhere or family fun with the overtime money. As long as he decides where and how to spend it he is happy.

      True, guns can be an investment, none have decreased in value and he does shop for bargains. My issue was using the credit card to purchase especially when there were other needs.

      Suggestion: you know he’ll be bringing up guns. Yep we know that stuff. What if before Thursday you ask him for help. To show you how the various guns work. What is the best use for each? Do we have the right guns for what is most likely to come up? How do you clean them? How often do they need to be cleaned. Show you how to use what you have. Yes training elsewhere is good, but there are many benefits to asking for help, rather than telling him what to do. Work with him. If something doesn’t seem right, ask him more questions. Gets him thinking instead of being defensive. He frowned at your idea of the 4″ .22 Ask him why, what would be better? Have him help come up with solutions, even if you already had one in mind.

      • Thanks. He did shock the heck out of me yesterday. Kinda of think he read my post. When he came home he brought up the topic way to early wink wink. The conclusions he came to
        1. our lifestyle minimizes the risks not eliminates but minimizes
        2. he knows I am not saying NO to guns
        3. the guns I want will cost more than he thought (I have expensive taste & he knows that)
        4. he did have fear an just the thought of someone saying no (gov regs) makes him want them more
        5. Having fencing gates lights alarms as well as other safety things did make sense. Working on keeping the harm away first makes sense.
        6. working out, taking refresher courses for self defense would be a good idea Doing what we can to get my body healed as well as getting as fit as we can be is a good thing. He kinda forgets we are getting older.
        7. being responsible with the guns he has stocking ammo shooting cleaning … needs to be worked on he agreed he had dropped the ball & will work at getting some hung on the wall as I have requested.
        8. understands that since my hands were injured that I will never be able to shoot like I use to or even shoot what I use to. I will have to start at square one and learn all over again.
        9. makes sense to get something that can take cheaper ammo so we can practice more while putting less stress on my body.
        10. There is merit to… ‘being a well trained person with a smaller gun can do more damage than a untrained person with a big gun.’
        11. No it was not me that was crapping on the gun topic it was him. He realized that I was trying to work it out the best possible way He was how did he put it Just letting my balls get in the way. LOL
        12. he was missing all the guns he had way back when he was a dealer and gun smith.

        That conversation had me teary not because I was mad but I was so happy and shocked. I let him know I was also afraid. That I was always going to have to be the voice of reason. That I was scared to death he was going to go back to sleep because I was poo pooing him. That I was going to have to be the one to carry everything on my shoulders. And I was going to have to do this alone. I’m tellen ya one person can not do it ALL. I think moms and women try and then every one wonders why we get … hormonal crabby bitchy bossy what ever you want to call it. No we just get exhausted. The world is just to dang heavy even my little world.

        Now this may not seem like a big deal but it is HUGE!! He listen, he thought, he talked, he shared, he planned, he dreamed, he took my feeling into consideration, he problem solved, he got his fear in check & he is willing to stick to the plan. Plus he handled everything in a timely manner. Didn’t stew about it for days first. In my eyes he has never been a bigger man. He really is on board!

        • 12. he was missing all the guns he had way back when he was a dealer and gun smith.

          I think that is a lot of it. My husband said when he gets stressed if he walks into a gunshop, sees the guns, talks about them, etc all his stress goes away and all is right with the world. A hobby he shared with his dad who passed a couple Christmas’ ago. Will always miss him. Helps me understand.

    • It works like this. I asked my husband what he wanted for Christmas. A range finder, but it is more than what we budgeted. Ok, what is that and how much does it cost? Not researched it in a while. That’s fine, I can quickly look them up. We looked at several, wide range in price, read reviews. I asked what he’d use it for? When? Looked more at various ones. Is that what you want? Finally he decided he was fine with one of the more moderate costing ones, but must be waterproof. Is that what you want for Christmas? Not this year. I’d not be using it much right now. Other things I’d rather have right now, but don’t know what they are yet. I do want one sometime. It’d probably just gather dust like some other things we’ve bought.

      I remember the cool things my dad would do for me for Christmas, he said. I’d rather do more for the kids. (he was surprised when his 19 year old daughter asked for a hammer for Christmas among other things, and of course everyone needs a hammer even if living in college dorms). He had fun picking her up a few basic tools to go with it and something to carry them in. And yes he also picked her up something fun. However I still don’t know what to get him.

      The big thing is to get him talking, communicating, thinking.

  6. Jack,

    Concerning your thoughts about escaping and vacating the area, through the windows. I was shocked just like you when one of the first reports I read about the shooting was from a little girl. She said that the gym teacher told them to huddle in the corner, “so we huddled.” I was so shocked about the whole thing that I was not immediatley outraged but th elonger I think about it the more angry I am. It is absolutely obvious to anyone that telling children to huddle in a corner only makes them an easier target. In this situation, escaping the buliding would have saved lives. BUT, what if there were multiple assailants, ones that were waiting outside to shoot that were escaping. I hve heard of muslim sects doing this to women’s schools in the middle east. They set fire to a school and wait for women to run out and as they run out they murder them. How does this kind of threat change your recomendation for keeping people safe in a shooting situation?

    • Ryan, if I may put in an opinion:

      The second scenario doesn’t change the recommendation for me. In the first place, which target is harder to hit, a running person, or a group crowded in a corner not moving? Run, you have a better chance.

      In the Muslim sect scenario, you will die if you stay, you have a chance if you run. This would be the infamous “no win” situation.

      If placed in a dangerous situation, you don’t know the bad guys plan, so you choose the best option at the time based on the circumstances.

  7. Jack is right…. Diet, herbs, minerals, has reversed my Type II insulin dependent diabetes… without modern medicine’s help. I did go Paleo, and at an 85 – 90% level.

  8. When it comes to Physical fitness each body type has it’s own advantages and disadvantages. Refer to the Zombie Combat Manual pgs 44-50. Myself I consider to be a mesocombatant. Not the fastest but able to endure the long haul. Not the strongest but able to wield power and leverage when needed. The fact That I work physically each day means I have enough stamina to keep truckin but lack stamina of a boxer or runner for short term needs. I have enough fat on my body to last without food and keep movin for several days. I do it everyday in fact I rarely have the chance to eat lunch.

  9. Regarding the mileage tax, why would they need cameras and RFID tags when they can just check your car’s odometer each year when you get your car tags renewed?

  10. Love the show and appreciate all you do. I have to disagree with your summation of fitness in this community, however. Preparedness and Preppers, by definition, are to be as “ready for whatever comes” as possible. Perhaps by the pigeonhole labeling of race/religion/income/age/etc… is this a cross-section of America, but Preppers themselves– again, by definition– set themselves apart and are NOT a cross-section of America.

    As we know, many new preppers focus on stuff. Stuff to store, stuff to use, stuff to sit in a closet or go-bag and make them feel better about their odds of surviving… something. As their preparations mature, they will hopefully begin to acquire skills. They’ll not only use their stuff, but they’ll learn how to do things that don’t require stuff. For example, its good to have a portable stove. Its better to know how to use the portable stove. Its best to know how to cook without a portable stove at all. Jack, you summarized this hierarchy best when you said “How you think is more important than what you know. What you know is more important than what you have.”

    If your body can’t implement the knowledge that it needs to in order to survive, however, then how you think isn’t going to mean nearly as much. If you can’t walk for miles with a load, if you can’t run a 5K– even slowly–, if you can’t sprint your way up a hill or even across your living room, you’ve decreased your odds of survival significantly. This is true no matter what gear or skills you have, or what your body looks like.

    Many of us fell into the mainstream definition of fitness for years — whether it was the isolated movements and resulting of appearing to be fit because of big muscles, or the hours of cardio on a treadmill or exercise bike and resulting lean appearing body, or eating “low fat” and starving yourself so you can fit into certain clothes. I certainly did and wondered why I could never get as lean as I wanted to, and I had a lot of joint pain to show for it. In fact, once I took my lean and well muscled body for my first Krav Maga test, a 3 hour full-body sprint, I found out just how fit I wasn’t.

    I’m a paleo crossfitter now and teach both crossfit and krav on the side, and let me tell you — I could not do what I do, on a daily basis, if it wasn’t for crossfit. I’m an architect by training, a design|build owner by practice (we specialize in defensible and self-sufficient home), and a small organic farmer/homesteader too. (yes, days are busy). If I hadn’t started pursuing functional fitness, moving in a way my body was designed to move with compound movements — sitting at my desk drawing all day would have me with such a limited mobility that I wouldn’t be able to perform essential movements to get me through both life — or a critical incident. At least not as safely. If it wasn’t for crossfit/functional fitness, I couldn’t split wood, I couldn’t haul water, I couldn’t throw hay, I couldn’t run fence, I couldn’t dig footings and pour concrete, I couldn’t run up and down ladders, I couldn’t hunt, I couldn’t do any of that all day long, I certainly couldn’t make it through a krav class let alone a true self defense situation beyond the initial adrenaline dump…

    Jack, you’re right that the appearance of fitness is not necessarily true fitness. Appearance is a world away from performance. But whether or not somebody appears to be fit– the question any prepper needs ask themselves is “can I do what needs to be done. Whatever that task is, can I do it?” A lot of people think they can, and certainly mindsetting is a key component of success. But when it counts, we “do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training.”

    So no matter how you think, if the vehicle you’ve been given to think/to do/to build/to achieve can’t get down the road, you’ve decreased your odds of survival significantly. I know you brought up the hunter who can walk most other people into the ground. If he’s a guide and does that all the time, then yes, agreed. If he’s a desk jockey executive who hunts once a year, then no, I have to disagree. Hunting Elk and Moose once a year isn’t going to do it. I guarantee you that the guys fortunate enough to walk those high elevation miles with gear have prepared for their annual hunt by “getting in shape”, hopefully with an emphasis on functional fitness.

    Since you’re paleo, I’m sure you’ve heard of CrossFit. One of the primary tenets of CrossFit is to prepare for both the known, and the unknowable. Another tenet is that it is completely scalable, and essential for all ages, all abilities, all fitness levels because everyone is an athlete, and their sport is life. We all have the same fitness needs, no matter what our age and abilities. Where we differ is by degree. 75 year old Grandma needs to squat because she needs to stand up and sit down on her own. Standing up and sitting down is squatting. Grandma also needs to deadlift, because when she bends down to pick up that bag of groceries, or cat food, or mulch, or laundry basket, or baby grandkid – that’s a deadlift. Grandma needs to run too, even if all she can do is a fast walk, because there may be a time when Grandmas “run” is the same speed as me when I’m hauling two kids or a 100lbs of gear across a field. We all need to do these functional movements if we want to survive as long as possible.

    I think physical fitness is a huge resource to anyone who wants to be prepared, 2nd only to mind-setting and critical thinking ability, and grossly under emphasized in this community. Yes, your daily hikes through the hills is far superior to anything you’d do on a leg extention or leg curl machine in a globo gym, but even once a week, why not do the hike for time? Do it with a 20lb pack? Or a 40lb bob? You talk a lot about the importance of practice, of drilling, of training. The same principles apply to fitness. Just like a leisurely hike through hills is beneficial, so is static shooting at a range. But is it realistic training for a critical incident? Adding stress to your shooting, whether its through movement, adding a timer, perhaps exhaustion, will improve your applicable abilities. Adding stress to your daily hike, be it an increased load, adding sprints, adding a timer, adding burpees at intervals, will also improve your applicable abilities.

    The Prepper with limited or non-existent level of physical fitness is deluding themselves. They’re like a tricked out and seemingly prepped bug out vehicle… with a lawnmower engine. All the tools are there, all the gear is there, all the ground clearance and onboard air compressors and winches and generators and jerry cans and comm. equipment — but it can barely get down the road.

    • Okay go say all that shit to the disabled veterans, 75 year old grandmothers and people missing arms and legs in this audience.

      • I think what he was getting at is that if you’re physically able to exercise, you should. No one expects the 75 year old lady with osteoperosis to be squatting 135lbs, but the guy in his 30s who has no physical ailments besides those caused by being unfit has no excuse.

        Now I disagree with the Crossfit brand and overall philosophy, since it causes more injuries to new lifters than any other training philosophy, but there are things everyone can do to better themselves. Thanks to the internet, there is a ton of free information (and a lot of misinformation) out there that people use to establish a way to improve fitness. You don’t necessarily have to be the Navy Seal, but you can at least improve from where you once were.

        • @Richard actually that was my point, I just said don’t try to take your definition of what qualifies as fit and force onto others. I have had plenty of people come up to my place who look like they are in “better shape” then me, we take a 2 mile walk up to the back ridge and they are sucking wind.

          Fitness is highly individualized in many ways, shapes and forms. SB seems to be indicating that we all (those capable anyway) should be cross fit warriors or some such shit. Frankly I consider modern cross fit to be a recipe for injury but short and long term. Even Rob Wolf has said this. Nothing destroys more shoulders then push ups. And don’t anyone tell me it is only “poor form push ups” that do that.

          If you want to be fit, walk a lot, run a little and do lots of physically demanding work OUTDOORS in all seasons, cool, hot, warm, cold. I love the guys that “hit the gym” daily but have never really worked hard in anything but 68-72 degrees, followed by a warm shower and putting gel back into their hair. Some of these guys look like models but hand them a shovel or a scythe and put them to work for 15 minutes and they are shot.

          My Bro-in-Law is a cop, works out, looks in good shape. When a storm flattened his fence I went to help him, he sucked wind though the whole thing and in many ways I would have been done faster if he just didn’t “help” and that was when I was flat out fat.

        • Agreed, Richard, and thanks for clarification. There is a lot of misinformation out there, particularly related to crossfit, which is why we say “we get good before we go fast or heavy”. Those who don’t take the time to leave their ego at the door, to learn properly, etc… deserve the injuries they get. And even though the most quantifiably, measurably fit people in the world are crossfitters, I didn’t comment here to to sell or defend crossfit specifically, but rather functional fitness.

          As I said, working out for appearance is no fitness at all, while working out for performance, is true fitness. If the broad definition of fitness is “increased work capacity”, a capacity that is measured and quantified — thats as objective and scientific as it gets. No force fitting there…

          It doesn’t look like Jack has “reply” enabled on his comment, so let me add further clarification by not “indicating “anything, certainly by not being argumentative or belittling, and simply point out that we are actually in agreement, despite a nerve being hit apparently.

          What I said, not indicated, but said, was:

          …”If you can’t walk for miles with a load, if you can’t run a 5K– even slowly–, if you can’t sprint your way up a hill or even across your living room, you’ve decreased your odds of survival significantly. This is true no matter what gear or skills you have, or what your body looks like .”

          “In fact, once I took my lean and well muscled body for my first Krav Maga test, a 3 hour full-body sprint, I found out just how fit I wasn’t…

          Jack, you’re right that the appearance of fitness is not necessarily true fitness. Appearance is a world away from performance. But whether or not somebody appears to be fit– the question any prepper needs ask themselves is “can I do what needs to be done. Whatever that task is, can I do it?” A lot of people think they can, and certainly mindsetting is a key component of success. But when it counts, we “do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training.””

          “The Prepper with limited or non-existent level of physical fitness is deluding themselves. They’re like a tricked out and seemingly prepped bug out vehicle… with a lawnmower engine. All the tools are there, all the gear is there, all the ground clearance and onboard air compressors and winches and generators and jerry cans and comm. equipment — but it can barely get down the road.”

          I don’t see how any rational person could disagree with the above, and certainly not a thinking prepper. I think part of the reason why people tune in here is because we’re objective enough to listen to the things that are hard to hear or admit. With regards to fitness, I think that applies to many preppers. Hopefully those reading this will ask themselves some hard questions and make an effort to get better than yesterday.

        • @SB, it isn’t me on the reply for some reason on some threads the reply option gets hidden by the user icon, I can’t figure out why.

          On your above I do not disagree at all, the entire point is you disagreed with me, and I don’t know how any of the above is counter to what I stated. In short what exactly is your original disagreement, you haven’t made a single point I can see so far that actually aligns with your original statement that you disagreed with my response.

          Basically you said you disagreed then agreed, so um, what is your point of contention? If we get there I can tell you why I disagree if we can’t I am stuck with just stating I don’t agree with you disagreeing. LOL

  11. Ha! Hopefully all the disabled veterans, 75-year old grandmothers, and people missing arms and legs in this audience (the perfect cross section of America, btw) are reading this and thinking, “You 40 year olds who go on hikes, load compost in your trucks, split firewood, and think you’re fit had better be fit enough to carry me — and carry me fast and far — when the shnizzle hits the fan”.

    Actually, in all seriousness, your reply raises a good point: If you’re responsible for more than just able-bodied people in your group, then you have the responsibility for a greater level of fitness. I used to own a crossfit gym before deciding to close the gym and get serious about the farm, and at least one member family were “part of your audience”, so to speak. Instead of looking at the barbell as a weight, she would put it in a realistic scenario in her mind and see it as a child who needed pulled up off of a cliff, or gear that had to be loaded into their b.o.v. asap. Instead of seeing a 400m run as simply an active rest that sucked, she imagined it as a bug out scenario and she had to perform or else.

    No excuses, Jack. You helped this audience across a broad spectrum of preparedness. Just returning the favor.

    • See my reply above and exactly what excuse do you think I am making. Now if you are inferring that all fitness goes to barbels, machines and organized routines you are just flat wrong. Let’s head over to rural Oklahoma and I will introduce you to farm boys that can kick your ass both in a days work and in a strait up boxing or mma style match. Most of them will have never seen a gym on the inside or touched a piece of exercise equipment.