Episode-1200- Sally Fallon of the Weston A Price Foundation — 143 Comments

    • Yes you were both saying basically the same thing. She just didn’t want to hear it. As soon as you said paleo she shut down.

      • Jack, You were very diplomatic. I don’t know why people say Paleo is about lean meat. (yes lean meat if you are buying that store crap because the fat has the toxins they are pushing on the poor animal) I started trying to lose weight iwth The 7 Day diet (leanmeat) After I felt like I was starving to death I researched Higher fat diets and found Robb Wolfs book. 40 pounds less and a lot of great food later fat is where it’s at. Robb does not teach low fat. Apparently she never read anything of his in depth.
        In his book he talks about the importance of fat and his first non vegetarian meal was pork ribs -doesn’t sound low fat to me.

  1. Loving the intro segments on ‘this day in history’ it’s very grounding and brings our world and our problems into perspective!

    • Not to harp on this, but Jack even said in this interview just after the 27 minute mark, “Well don’t pay attention to wikipedia because anyone can…..” Jack, I think that this segment undercuts the quality content that you’ve been producing with those podcast.

      • There is a difference between historical fact and opinion. The segments on history are simply what happened, the tend to check out. Wikipedia doesn’t get though to say what paleo is, that is for the evolving and ever changing paleo community to do.

  2. I laughed through most of the interview. That was painfully funny. To be honest, I tuned out at least 50% of what she was talking about (like a teenager being scolded by a parent for some non-issue). You handled it so much better than I would have.

  3. Agreed. She’s like most people in my family, I could point to the sky and say its blue, and then they will go on for 15 minutes telling me why I am wrong. I don’t visit my famiy often.

  4. Ok, I’ll be the decenter.

    I didn’t feel she was in the least bit defensive. I heard a woman who was siting credible reference material and notating how it conflicted with her brand. Wouldn’t anybody (including Jack) want to protect the brand they’ve worked so hard to develop from being misdefined? All she was saying was WAP is different than the commoners perception of Paleo; period.

    Diets seem to be like religion. People find something that works for them and will defend it to the end – which I guess is the way it should be. But even though a person eats/worships a certain way – does not mean that others are wrong. I personally like to hear others point of view…
    I thought her information was great. Thanks for having her on the show Jack.

    • Well first let’s talk about brand, what gives Sally the right to control what Dr. Price is all about. From my research she has NO connection to the family, she just decided to create the foundation. Dr. Price is about as connected to the organization that bears his name as I am.

      WAP Foundation was formed in 99, I can find no evidence of any direct connection to Dr. Price other then they used his name and DO base what they do on his reasearch. I love most of what they are doing but they have no authority as the definitive word on what Dr. Price’s work does or doesn’t say and no definitive word on how his work is to be interperted. Seriously it would be no different if your grandson created the “Jack Spirko Foundation” 90 years from now after I was dead and decided that he would tell others the final word on my legacy.

      Sally and her cofounder actually make no such claim but to the outsider it appears that they are somehow actually officially sanctioned by Dr. Price’s legacy. While they make no claim they don’t point out the reality either and seem to want to have the final word on everything based on name alone.

      So branding alone is an issue if we are to be honest. Their diet is NOT the Weston A Price diet at all, it is the Fallon/Enig Weston A Price FOUNDATION diet. They have decided what is and isn’t “Price” and unfortunately for them, they do not get to do this.

      Next did you notice 90% of her energy was spent not listening, talking over me and explaining why fat is good? Seriously? She was arguing a point that wasn’t in contention.

      When the interview was over I cited two articles on Robb Wolf’s own site, they were…


      She simply said “he needs to change his site then”, WHILE I WAS READING from his site, seriously?

      Apparently this little war goes back a long time, Rob wrote a response to it back in 2008.

      The point I was trying to make is Paleo in many forms is NOT as fat restrictive as she contends and that over time Wolf and others have moved more toward the higher fat ratios.

      Did you also notice she goes on and on about grass fed beef being too lean and then runs a GRASS BASED FARM! Seriously again, really?

      I’ll tell you Fallon’s problem, she has a little fiefdom and can’t stomach anyone using the man’s name she used to build it other then herself and those she is in partnership with. It is very obvious a person that can’t even listen to a response isn’t interested in facts.

      There is no brand confusion between the work of Dr. Price and Paleo, there does appear to me to be brand confusion between the work of Dr. Price and the foundation that bears his name. Far as I know, no family member or conservator has sanctioned such use. If I am proven wrong about that I will apologize.

      • The deal with the whole “grass fed” issue is this. Grass fed meat in America IS leaner than grain fed meat, of course. But the fat profile and nutrient value of grass fed meat is so much more favorable. So, to have the best of both worlds, you raise grass fed meat and put a heck of a lot of fat on it (like I’m doing tonight with garlic/parm butter on my ribeye. YUM!) 🙂

        • It’s also important to realize that most grass fed animal growers have bought into the ‘fat free’ lifestyle and therefor don’t want their animals to have fat on them.

          Speaking of fat. I was just watching a BBC documentary on farm life. Back in the 1200’s the fat from a slaughtered animal brought in twice the price as the meat. They knew it was good for them. They also consumed 4000+ calories a day (which I am positive they didn’t count) just to keep weight on. Interesting.

    • Jack – I wasn’t arguing her right to the WAP name, or the diet. I was simply saying I did not hear a woman who was being what you are labeling defensive. She was simply stating the facts as SHE sees them; according to the foundation she is President of.

      You disagreed with her and she disagreed with you – in which case we just should agree to disagree. She is a strong willed woman; you are a strong willed man.

      As you so often say “You don’t always have to agree with me, that’s OK”.. Those are your words Jack… Uh, she didn’t agree and yet, it’s not OK??

      Just my humble opinion. I came here originally to write a ‘thank you’ for the good (and vastly different) info. Then I saw everyones negative comments. I just don’t think that’s right – she was your guest Jack – your guest.

      • When someone talks over you and won’t even let you speak, they are being quite defensive. She didn’t really disagree with me, she was too busy talking over me to actually hear most of what I said.

        • Fair enough. I’ll agree to disagree with you on the definition of defensive in this situation 😉

        • I think Melodee’s point is that Mrs. Fallon hasn’t studied the Jack S diet, she wanted to be clear about the difference, that does exist, between “main line paleo” and her/thier views. The difference you keep saying doesn’t really exist is this: eat as much healthy sourced fat as possible, vs. eat healthy fats in moderation. Jack, you may agree with her or nearly, but it seemed to me she wanted to be clear about differences she has seen from others in the paleo community.

  5. It did come down to dogma. It may as well have been a debate of religious doctrine or political platforms.

    The best interviews leave the audience with actionable advice such as:

    building something
    stop doing something harmful
    think about something differently

    • The big thing was her biggest argument was why fat is good, a thing I wasn’t contending to not be so.

      If the argument was dogma based that was on one side. It is really maddening to argue with a person you are attempting to agree with.

      Read my response to @melodee above you will see Fallon isn’t interested in facts, just saying others are wrong and not even know what said others are actually saying.

  6. WAPD is part of her religion. I think that part of her defensiveness comes from the evolutionary bent intrinsic to the paleo theory.
    I noticed that when talking about the W.A.Price diet she said “We”. Anything contrary to or different from the WAPD is heretical and seen as a direct attack on her and her religious work (crusade).

    In spite of this, I will probably buy her first book eventually. However, I will do the same thing I did with The Bible, take what I need and scrap the rest.

    Jack I appreciate the work you did to put the interview together. I think I learned more about psychology and communication today than about ancestral diets, lol.

    • FYI, Dr. Price’s books and works are maintained by the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation. They have an updated 8th edition of HIS book “Nutrition and Physical Degeneration” for sale on Amazon.

      I guess I won’t be buying Sally’s book after all… I would rather hear it from the horse’s mouth than from a brand pirate!

      • While she was annoying (which saddened me because her influence on my life has been great) the book is very worth the price. But if you still don’t want to spend the money on her book there is a woman who did a blog about cooking with her book every day. It give the recipes and of course her experience. What you do miss is the interesting research and factoids that SF’s book contains. But maybe those are in Dr. Price’s book? It is on my ‘want list’ so I haven’t read it yet. Here is a link to the blog I spoke of.

  7. It’s hard to listen to and respect the opinion of someone who does not respect opposing opinion. They just appear close-minded and walking around with blinders on.

    • Funny thing is my opinion and hers as to what she was actually arguing were the same, she still didn’t respect it.

  8. The only difference I ever noticed between Paleo & WAP eating was that WAP allows grains, as long as they are soaked first. I think Robb Wolff and Loren Cordain may have said in their books to eat lean cuts of meat, but as far as I know they no longer espouse that view.

    • Another difference, I heard on Robb Wolf’s latest podcast that he might be backing off on fish oil, where WAP are big believers in specific brands of fish oil you can find on their site.

  9. You’re both correct on this debate and here’s why(and by the way I follow a Paleo diet so here me out on this one), Loren Cordain has remained staunch in support of his original thesis which espouses lean meats, very low carb and no dairy or grains whatsoever. He has backed off a little when it comes to pregnant women because of the dangers of such advice. When you go to Robb Wolf’s website under ‘What is the Paleo Diet’ the first thing he mentions is Lean Meat, he goes on to say why it’s important to consume Monounsaturated and Omega-3 fats to drastically reduce the instances of modern day diseases and that you do that by consuming healthy fats from nuts, seeds, avocados, olive oil, fish oil and grass-fed meat. All good there. He goes on to compare modern grain-fed meat to that of what our ancestors ate being grass fed or wild meat, fish and fowl. And states that “What we observe is wild meat is remarkably lean, and has relatively low amounts of saturated fats, while supplying significant amounts of beneficial omega-3 fats such as EPA and DHA.” Still good but he is standing firm on lean meats. He then goes on to cite a paper of Loren Cordains that in the Methodolgy states, “For the meat food group, the four most commonly consumed meats in the United States (beef, chicken, pork and turkey)20 represented the meats of choice in the analysis. Only very lean cuts of meat (turkey and chicken breasts without skin, pork loin trimmed of fat, beef sirloin tip roast trimmed of fat) that averaged 20 % fat by energy–a mean value similar to that found in wild game meat21–were utilized in the model.”
    All Sally Fallon was saying(albeit in a very determined way) is that fatty meats are important and if Robb feels different now, then he should update his site to reflect that, and given that the site Does read that way, it represents a true distinction in the two diets. I have heard that Robb Wolf has updated his stance and has stated that publicly, and you know how he feels because you listen to his podcast, but it’s not clear to someone visiting his site for the first time.
    Another great show, just wish it hadn’t been tense there in the middle, as you made the point the diets are not so different now and what’s so wrong if people are working toward the same goal?

    • Great Research JackieVB!

      I enjoyed the interview today, I do think that there was a point of disagreement that Sally was trying to convey, it sounded like rather than saying Fat was okay or acceptable, that it is necessary, and that lean meat should be avoided unless eaten with enough fat.

      This is much different than just saying that fat is okay, I think she was saying that fat was far supperior to lean meat. I think she had every right to defend that position because, from her point of view it is an important distinction to make.

      I’m not taking either side, this is just what I took away from the interview. I am not versed in either diet enough to form an opinion.

      • You know though all I wanted was not to be talked over on my own show and to actually be heard. I am telling you man I gave her two articles on Robb’s site and she said, he needed to change his site, the damn articles were ON HIS SITE. Man oh man, I am telling you the issue is simple, she wants to say what Dr. Price’s work means and not have anyone else have any different opinon. As I said in another comment it is important to understand that the connection between Dr. Price and the Weston A Price Foundation is ONLY the name, the entire doctrine of the WAPF is Sally Fallon’s interpretation of Dr. Price’s work. There is no OFFICIAL link to Price and Fallon’s group, the foundation is nothing but Sally and her cofounders view of the original work. I don’t think most people realize that.

        Again dude, if your son founded the Jack Spirko foundation in 2070 after I was dead with NO endorsement by my family, heirs or conservatory etc, it would be as offical as the WAPF.

        Did you realize that? I didn’t until today.

        I want to be clear again, Fallon and Enig make NO SUCH CLAIM but the name would lead most to assume it was true.

        • That is a troubling point, I did not know that the foundation had no endorsement with the Price family. That was an unfortunately poor marketing decision.

          I really like what they have done, and my wife has utilized their information and website many times while our family has transitioned off GMO’s. Through what we have learned both here on TSP and over there at WAPF website we have discovered that my wife is allergic to soy and my daughter is allergic to GM corn.

          Learning this information though really hurts the credibility of the WAPF.

        • I don’t think you should feel misled but it may clear up a TON of confusion from the paleo side and paleo folks citing WAPF as Price himself. It may be OUR FAULT for assuming something that they don’t claim.

        • They have studied the mans works. If somebody else wants to study the guys science and disagrees with their analysis let us know. They formed the foundation because they wanted to make sure this research became known to the world because of how important it is, AND how radically different it is to EVERYTHING else out there. You guys saying its their religion are delusional.

        • I don’t think she is trying to mislead anyone by using the name. She is simply bringing awareness to his research which his family obviously didn’t do.

        • Jack this point you made really got me thinking. I had to stop and consider it; since I don’t want to be mislead as I wish to look to the WAPF for information.

          I did however notice that the foundation that Dr. Price did start, called the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation is still in existence. A search in their search box for “Sally Fallon” results in a number of articles written by her.

          So while the family may not have continued the legacy of Dr Price, his original foundation surely must be – and if they feel confident to publish Sally Fallon’s articles – I’d have to decide there is no brand piracy here.

          I’m sure if we looked; we’d find a number of organizations that are based on the teachings of someone. I’m sure those organizations evolve in time to reflect the changes in science and research. For example, I quickly looked over the “Ford Foundation” website – not one “Ford” on the board.

        • I NEVER once said she was a brand pirate, not one time. I never once said that she tried to mislead anyone and I defy anyone to show me where I did. What I said is the name of her group leads many to believe that the WAPF is officially connected to Dr. Price simply by the name alone. It may not be the intent, I DO NOT claim that it is, I don’t think that it is, but I also don’t think they go out of the way to say so.

          I am glad PPNF approves of her work but I think in the future when I reference Price I shall do so as a new member of PPNF.

          PPNF seems to be happy for the association between Price’s work and Paleo to that I submit

          Then you find this quote on this page, “The research of Weston Price represents what is very possibly the origin of many of today’s newer dietary ideas and variations such as those proposed by the Paleo diet, the Atkins diet and others.”

          Lastly this

          Yep just joined the PPNF, excited to learn more from the official source!

        • Jack, you are correct, you did not say she was a brand pirate. Sorry I misquoted you there.

          I’m glad this lead us to the original foundation – all in all I feel it was a good learning experience, and a chance for all of us to examine our personal opinions/ideas.

          I think the bottom line is this: You and Sally don’t mesh well!! lol.

          On an aside – what happened to the ‘thumbs-up’ button? I sure do miss that!!

        • Sadly I think we could. I had planned to seriously offer her the opportunity to partner with the MSB for their membership program. But I can’t deal with person in a business relationship that won’t hear what I have to say. I am fine if you say I am wrong, I do however, expect you to know what I am saying before saying so.

    • See the thing is as I have said before neither Robb Wolf or Loren are the “pope of paleo”. First Rob is under no obligation to do anything, the man posts and podcasts weekly if people want to ignore what he says it is there proble.

      Additionally Neither Loren nor Robb claim what they do is the same as what Fallon does, there are MANY similarities.

      Additionally while grass fed beef is leaner then corn fed beef, fricken Fallon is raising beef and milk cows on grass that is great that is what they are supposed to eat.

      Paleo is simple a concept, Wolf nor Cordain claim to own it both are clear what they do is their take on the concept. When I asked Robb about my take his basic answer is your take is your take, we are all entitled to it but the core is the same.

  10. Jack, I heard sourdough bread mentioned as a fermented food. How do you feel about that for someone who trying to go mostly paleo?
    I have been trying to eliminate most carbs from my diet and one that I have been avoiding is my homemade sourdough rye. Is it fermented enough to fit into your diet plan? Total rise time before going in the oven is 14-16 hours.

    • I basically say what Robb does, go full bore JUST FOR 30 DAYS. You can do anything for 30 days most people would gladly spend 30 days in jail for 5 million dollars right?

      Then begin adding things back slowly only one or two at a time and see how you do. If you find (like me) that you can eat 8 slices of thick bacon and 5 eggs and still feel good and lose or maintain weight fine, go nuts. If you can’t, don’t.

      Same with how much grain and what type of grain and how it is prepared.

      This is what people like Sally ignore about Rob’s work and many others in the Paleo world, the lean meat and other restrictions are a BASE, once a goal is achieved people then find their own balance.

      I find this the safest way to do thing.

      Here is why, eat a lot of carbs and a lot of fat and you absolutely will get fat, I don’t care if it is soaked, fermented or blessed by the flying nun, large amounts of fat and carbs at the same time put weight on and trigger a heavy eating response.

      By cutting out most carbs and removing all gluten at first, one can find their balance. If you don’t cut it first you are basically rolling the dice, sure they may come up 12 but there are 11 other numbers and none of the others are very good. Hope that makes sense.

      I personally like sprouted bread and sour dough. I don’t eat much though. May be two slices for a egg, blue cheese and bacon sandwich on sunday and perhaps two slices for a burger mid week.

      When I go out I might have a slice of bread it won’t kill me you know but moderation in all things.

      I would say I am 90% paleo 90% of the time.

      I ate ice cream last weekend and I ain’t apologizing but it will like be 60 days or more before I go that far off the reservation again. Tonight I will be eating brisket, asparagus and likely some roasted peppers. Pretty solid on being 100 percent paleo today.

      Well except for some beer, LOL that is another place Robb and I disagree.

  11. Jack, good interview. You made lemonade out of lemons. I think I’d rather read the research from Dr. Price directly than from the Weston foundation, though.

  12. Enjoy the podcast and have found lots of good things through it and have recommended it to others. This particular interview (at the beginning) could have, IMO, been handled a bit more graciously in light of the fact that she was an invited ‘guest’ to your ‘home’.
    Her many years of doing what she’s been doing accords her a level of respect contrary to the above (strident) comment by Angry Bob. Quite shocked by the tone of some of the comments, actually.

    • Really well grace is a two way street in a conversation, I wasn’t the one talking over the other person now was I?

      As for invited, she wasn’t invited, she asked to be on the show and was accepted as a guest. Yes a host should be gracious but so should a guest. It isn’t gracious to interrupt the other party in mid sentence is it? Seriously I think she was rude as hell because she kept doing it EVEN AFTER I SAID, “you’re the guest I will give you ALL THE TIME YOU WANT to respond”.

      Seriously do you get that?

      So to recap she wasn’t invited she asked to come and was accepted, as almost all guests do. She was promised as much time to respond to any point she wanted if she would just let me speak and in spite of that she continued to cut me off and interrupt me.

      Frankly if at that point, I would have cut the interview off, it would have been more than reasonable. I switched gears because whether Sally can listen sufficiently to understand it or not we are in 95% agreement.

    • I’m with you Diana. The comments on here have been kind of telling about this community, it seems. I love what you’re doing here, Jack, and have found a lot of good people on here, but it seems like people have lost their sensibilities on this one.

      Jack, I know that you’ve asked people not talk bad about the people you interview (or so I’ve been told). Do you have any response to people like Angry Bob? I think you should ask for people to be more respectful, even if you think you weren’t given much respect.

      • I don’t like Bob’s comment but it isn’t really insulting or over the top. I wasn’t treated with respect on my own show for sure. I have said NOTHING factually untrue about Sally here or about her group, I haven’t said she was wrong about her views on diet either.

        I have simply stated that she was very rude to me on my own show, I feel she was. Further that many people in the paleo world do eat fatty meats, organ meats, etc and dairy and they do. Further that many citing the Weston A Price Foundation actually think they are citing Price’s official work, because it sounds that way but that said foundation is NOT DIRECTLY associated with Dr. Price via any official channel other than name.

        I don’t see anything there inaccurate, insulting or untrue.

        I am pretty shocked that anyone has a problem with the way I have handled this.

        I have also stated that Sally is a wonderful person doing great work and I appreciate her for it. I ended the interview making sure if anyone bought her book they did it in a way that was best for her, in spite of her rude behavior.

        • I was going to check out of this but really? You think ‘bitchslap’ is not insulting or over the top thing to say in regards to (especially) a female guest of Sally Fallons’ stature in a public forum? It’s crude, rude, ugly and casts a nasty light on the Survival Podcast.

          Your saying that comment is not insulting is, frankly, more insulting than the comment.

          There seems to be a kind of an echo-chamber ‘stick up for Jack’ effect going on in here and I’m telling you as a moderate listener and occasional visitor it doesn’t look good for what you are trying to do in the big picture. The only reason I’m saying this is because I believe what you are trying to do has many important facets and I want to see it grow.

          And to be fair you spoke over her twice before you told her you’d give her all the time she needed. Go back and listen at 14.44-ish and around 19.00.

          I was disappointed in the way that small section of the interview was conducted, but am now becoming shocked at the way you continue to handle this.

        • Hold up I scan comments I don’t read them deeply! I didn’t see that, you are correct and that comment is being removed right now!

        • And no I didn’t speak over her, she attempted to speak over me and I didn’t permit it, there is a huge difference. When I asked her a question and was able to finish my side before she started I never once cut her off, go listen you will see that is the case.

  13. I’m glad I listened to an interview that Jimmy Moore did with Sally BEFORE I listened to this podcast.

    Listening to that interview helped me understand her perspective a bit better. Jimmy managed to avoid making her as defensive as she was with Jack, and that defensiveness was definitely off-putting for me.

    She seems to be really tied up in semantics. From the Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb interview, I was able to determine that she and Loren Cordain go WAY back. Then, when Loren wrote his first book, he was suddenly advocating a bunch of stuff that was contrary to what they all knew to be the case in primative nutrition (lean meat, no organ meat, low-carb, etc.)

    Jimmy was mostly successful in getting her away from the whole Paleo argument, but it was hard, because she was really sticking to her guns that “Paleo” was not lean meat, no organs, and low-carb.

    Sally seems to be one of those folks that I agree with a LOT more than I disagree with her, but she’s having a hard time seeing that because, like I said, she seems stuck on semantics. It almost seems like the issue of gay “marriage”. You know, the folks who say, “I’d be fine if they called it something else like a civil union, but it’s not MARRIAGE!”

    She has a lot of great info to share. It’s too bad that she’s more interested in correcting folks’ terminology rather than clinging to the similarities and running with them.

    • Yep that is how I felt.

      I mean I said paleo people ate organ meat, saw lean meat as a survival ration only and used the whole animal. Then I hear how they didn’t use the whole animal, she goes on to discuss eating organs, back fat, the meat, etc, um ain’t that the whole animal.

      I think she might have thought she was talking to Loren Cordain rather then Jack Spirko or something.

      All I was trying to explain is there are MANY like shit tons of people who are paleo that eat lots of fats, good animal fats by the way.

      Also lean is relative. Sarah I think you are sight impaired if I remember so I don’t want to seem insensitive by posting a picture but ask someone to describe this to you, everyone else can look for them selves.

      This is an example of my smoker on a day that visitors are coming, it is a grass fed brisket, a pork shoulder from pastured pork and a pastured broiler chicken.

      Folks tell me there isn’t a LOT of fat on those cuts.

      Grass fed beef might be lean if it is the center or a sirloin but not so much if it is a rib eye, a chuckeye, a brisket, etc. May be pork on pasture is lean if you eat a back loin nicely trimmed but look at that shoulder. Pastured chicken breast is lean but the thy and leg ain’t.

      • Just telling me what’s on the smoker was enough to prove your point. I get all those foods here in my home, and it seems like there’s certainly enough fat for me. 🙂 YUM!

        When I get ground pastured pork though, I do actually add extra lard to it. COMMERCIAL grass-fed beef seems much leaner than what I get from my local farmer, and I’m guessing that has more to do with culture than the actual animal’s body composition. People shun fat, and the industry seems to think that if someone’s going as far as eating grass-fed beef, they must be health-conscious enough to know that of course, fat is bad for you. Ugh. THAT’s the kind of stuff that you DO have to add fat to.

        And Sally does actually have a valid point when it comes to “Paleo” and the people who made it most famous. Both Wolf and Cordain, in their books, stress the importance of lean cuts of meat (like eye of round, boneless, skinless chicken breast, and the like), and I think she’s so scared that people are going to get the wrong idea that she starts out defensive.

        Even in Robb’s current podcasts, he goes on and on about the importance of PROTEIN, saying that folks need to eat at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight. If I did that, I’d NEVER be able to control my blood sugar. The only macronutrient that doesn’t impact my blood sugar is FAT, so I’m looking to add it at every opportunity.

        I understand that Robb’s views have evolved somewhat over the years, as have Loren Cordains. But Sally does still have a valid point. When you get the food list off Robb’s site, it still stresses the importance of very lean protein.

        Like I said earlier, she just seems to want to argue semantics. Robb’s diet, by the letter, as well as Cordain’s original diet don’t seem to reflect the reality of what most people are doing who consider themselves “Paleo”. Fortunately, we all do understand the importance of healthy fats, and I’m still confused as to why Sally was trying to argue a point that you both agreed on.

        • Again though, Robb’s is baseline. Start here and add back and see where you do best. Even says so in his book. Cordain I can’t speak on behalf of, never read his book.

          If you read some of what Sally has written about Paleo it becomes more clear, stating things such as in paleo you eat only egg whites, etc. Her points were valid, the rude behavior was my issue along with her stern refusal to allow me to present facts on the other side of the equation.

          Frankly this is what I should have done, when the rude behavior commenced, I should have nicely said, “Sally the recorder is off, I am going to delete that, go back to the original question, I will give you all the time to speak but if you are going to talk over me and not let me present the other side, I am just going to end the interview now”. It would have been the better choice but hindsight is 20-20

  14. I wonder why Fallon believes that the fat from monogastric animals is better than that of ruminants. I always believed that the opposite was true. Unlike ruminants, pigs and poultry retain a lot of omega 6 in their fat. This is even true of “pastured” animals, since they are still generally eating lots of grain (even if it’s not soy or corn). That large amount of dietary omega 6 typifies the industrialized western diet — getting away from it seems to be a core focus of people following paleo and ancestral-type diets.

    That’s one reason why Geese are so exciting — they’re apparently very easy to raise without much grain.

  15. I think Sally was rightfully standing up for what she’s put so much work and study into over the years. Also just because you disagree with her doesn’t mean you should try to discredit her organization. A diet of fermented and traditional foods “IS” different than the mostly low-carb atkins-ish paleo diet. I think of the paleo diet of a way to trick your body into loosing weight by starving it of carbs. Carbs which could have been utilized as valuable nutrition and been a satisfying addition to a wholistic diet if sprouted or fermented just as they were historically. Jack, it’s also really hard for me to take your side on this one because you admit yourself that you cheat on the paleo diet which makes me think it’s not a sustainable way to satisfy your desires. A diet should be considered the whole of what you eat not something that guilts you into loosing weight. Love the show, keep them coming!

    • I have said many times that diet she recommends has a lot of merit, I am NOT attacking what she recommends, I was trying to point out how much I actually agree with her and how many people in the paleo community do as well. Instead I was talked over and argued with about points that were not even in contention.

      The reality is from research I now know her and Loren Cordain go way back, anytime this issue comes up she feels she is being attacked NO MATTER HOW MUCH THAT ISN’T the case.

      Wow, how the heck is “you are the guest, I will give you all the time in the world to respond if you just let me say what I have to say” rude or wrong? How is it okay after that for the other party to continue to talk OVER the person who has made that commitment.

      I should really write an article about paleo and Price and how they relate or perhaps not waste my time.

      It just boggles my mind, I agree with Sally on 99% of what she says, my contention is only that NOT ALL PALEO methods are low fat in fact most end up not being so if you look at all the food consumed. From there we can look at the work of Dr. Price and MANY PALEO people (from authors to regular joes) reference Dr. Price’s work, NOT SALLY’S. Get it?

      Further I believe that many people again believe that the “Weston A Price Foundation” is some how officially connected to Dr. Price or his family or in some way is official in its connection. Hence this may be the source of why many in Paleo might cite the foundation when what they are actually meaning to cite is the WORK OF PRICE HIMSELF.

      See again the thing is the Weston A Price Foundation is in no way officially connected to Dr. Price or his work other than in NAME. Again Fallon and Enig do not claim otherwise yet they are also not clear about it, they don’t make any effort to say that. When people hear the “Weston A Price Foundation” it sounds very official and it is natural that they would believe that it is so, but it isn’t. What happened is Enig and Fallon have done GREAT WORK and through research on Price’s work. In 99 they used his name and founded the WAPF and began doing even more work but the brand does infer connections that do not exist.

      Then someone in paleo cites Price’s work and Fallon goes all ape crap on it. There is an official organization that continues the work of Dr. Price that is officially connected to his family and does have much longer roots then 1999. It is called the It is called the Price Pottenger Foundation, you can see their history here,

      Perhaps people in the Paleo world who include the work of Price in what they do should simply reference this officially connected organization?

      I am not saying ANYTHING Fallon and Enig are doing is wrong, I am saying simply if there is “confusion” about what is and isn’t a Weston Price diet officially they are the source of their own confusion.

      I am sorry if you don’t like how I handled it but do you not agree cutting the other side off and speaking over them is extremely rude, especially when on podcast? Specifically when the other party promises to give you all the time you want in your responses?

      Sally’s opinion isn’t my problem, it was her extremely defensive and rude behavior.

  16. WAIT!… fat is good for you!?!

    Just kidding. Hard show to listen to. Found a great site for raw milk so not a total lose.

  17. Just listened to the podcast and I think you were both equally defensive. It was almost like she came in ready to attack Paleo and you came in ready to set her straight on Paleo. I am new to Paleo (I got turned onto it from listening to TSP) and have been listening to a couple Paleo websites and have a couple Paleo cookbooks. I have also been doing research on Paleo online and everything I have read emphasizes lean meats (grass-fed, wild game, etc.) and meats with low saturated fats.
    I consider myself Paleo-ish and have been following the lean meat protocol (90% of the time) but will now look into the Weston A. Price guidelines.

    • I wasn’t defending paleo, I was simply trying to confer that what paleo is and isn’t. I wasn’t even discussing the merits of either diet. Just that many in the paleo world do it meat that isn’t just lean cuts.

    • What is Paleo? I thought I understood it but now I am confused. Does the diet promote dairy, grains, alcohol, legumes, fatty meat? Jack, when you say you are 90% Paleo, what is included in the 90% and what is included in the 10%?
      Are there are no clear cut guidelines or a simple definition? If paleo is different for everyone, then paleo become so nebulous that the term is meaningless.
      And whether or not some people consider Wolf and Cordain as the leaders, they consider themselves as such and are the face of the movement.

      • Paleo doesn’t really “promote foods” so much as say eat this and not that. The key is people often think you can put paleo in a box, you can’t. It is subject to interpenetration.

        Wolf and Cordain for example have key differences. Cordain from what I see says start here, stay here. Wolf says start here, equalize then try things here and there and find your own path.

        Does paleo promote…

        dairy – some do some don’t, I feel raw milk is the answer some say none

        grains – in general no but in moderation seeds such as a amaranth and quinoa according to some, in general wheat is the big agreement, no wheat, most other grains are considered moderation only. I personally include corn in the moderation column, specifically organic, non gmo ancient corn that is gluten free.

        alcohol – gray area, Robb Wolf has a guideline page saying alcohol is to be avoided but gives you a recipe for a Nor Cal Margarita in his book. I say based on the work of Dr. Greg Ellis for me alcohol is fine but you can’t say the same for the other calories and residual carbs in them. So in a beer it ain’t so much the alcohol but the residual carbs. I like beer so I cheat in this area. Robb seems to agree and recommends clear hard liquor in moderation if you want to cheat.

        legumes – depends almost everyone is okay with something like a green bean it is mature beans most of the paleo authors don’t recommend. I consider it a moderation only one.

        fatty meat – relative term, saying eat pastured meat is not the same as lean meats. Sure pastured beef is “lean” but have you seen a pastured ribeye. Most on paleo do say to eat organ meats, we know damn well our ancestors did. Also how little fat is there in a lean cut of beef if you cook it in bacon grease or clarified butter as Wolf recommends?

        Paleo isn’t “a diet” it is a concept and each author has his own interpretation. The concept is eat the way we did 10,000 years ago and you will find health.

        I say authors that say only lean meat have gotten it wrong, but I don’t hold any animosity toward them.

        I personally used Robb’s book as my blue print and I eat a lot of fat, so I guess it is all in how much you think for yourself and how many locations you get data from.

        • Thanks for the detailed response. Clears up a lot of my confusion. For the record … I agree with the Spirko diet 🙂 .
          Also, I have been doing some research on wheat and am starting to think that milling your own grain and baking bread immediately (store as grain, not as flour) is actually healthy. Including the wheat germ and the bran (true definition of “whole wheat”) I compare to raw milk. In other words, in its raw form – like it would have been thousands of years ago – grains, even wheat (including the heavy gluten wheat we have today), is healthy for you. It’s when it is process that it loses its nutritional value and actually becomes toxic.

          I am planning to start milling and making my own and will let you know how I feel afterward.

        • I’d say it would be better but like Sally said sourdough is one way to improve it further. So is making sprouted grain bread.

          My thing is wheat seems to suck so bad why not use other gluten free grains instead or at least to reduce the wheat content. Then use ancient wheat varieties, as well.

  18. I made a mistake once (actually pretty often) in how how I dealt with another person. It wasn’t (usually) meant to be offensive or mean, but was interpreted that way. Wow, i sure am glad i didn’t do it on a show with mostly “like minded” listeners who are unable to cut a little slack. As a group, we appear to be ganging up a bit…

    I am not paleo or wap, so I have no dogmatic issues here. She, except for the one issue, sounded like a pretty decent person. If I had to pick a side, obviously I side with the Great Jack Spirko, but I think we maybe can side with Jack and still not be overly judgemental…. If she reads these comments, we sure have not made a friend. Friends are easy to find and easy to lose.

    Or maybe I should let the beer in my belly wear-off before I post on a blog… And then think before I post… Never mind, my judgement is already impaired so I’ll just post and then go for a drive ( lol).

    By the way, Jack’s show has been a major life changing inspiration and this post should no way be interpreted as an attack on Jack or any of you.

    • There is no need to side with me here, Sally and I are on the same side, I just don’t think she realizes that.

    • Don’t be a butt about a person’s age dude. Come on man, I just picked that photo from Google images.

      I was frustrated hey though before you write of Price’s actually work check out Price’s actual foundation that is actually directly connected to him.

      • Sorry. You are right that’s not really fair. I thought she was trying to misrepresent her age/appearance.
        I will listen to the rest with an open mind and look into it.

  19. Jack,

    Its is really unfortunate the interview went bad today, as I think you both agree on 95%. The word “lean meat” was a major distraction from a much broader point that I wished could have been the take-away of the podcast. Rather, I was left with a bitter taste in my mouth as a listener.

    In fact, I went back and re-listened to the podcast where the interview went south. You mentioned you eat grains occasionally and she mentioned Sourdough bread , being fermented, is a good option. You didnt even acknowledge the comment, but went on to discuss her articles on paleo. It felt like you came into the interview with a pre-conceived opinion and were tying to challenge her comments on paleo when it really wasnt necessary. You agree with what she was saying that fat is important.

    I really believe she could of made her point on lean meat (which is very clear in Robs website), and you both could have moved on….again, it was unfortunate.

    Jack: I love the show…I have listened since 2008, but today wasnt your A-game. Sorry to say it, but as Si Robertson would say “thats a fact, jack”

    • I just re-listened as well and I have to agree with you John. I actually thought she brought up Paleo first and that Jack was defending it, but actually Jack brought it up, referenced a rebuttal she wrote, and basically called her a liar. And even then her response was calm and to the point – outlining the difference between the two diets regarding lean meats. It wasn’t until after Jack’s next comment (after interrupting and talking over 🙂 about ancient cultures eating “100% of the animal” that she sounded a little on the attack.

      I wish had a quarter for every time someone said “fat” on this podcast 🙂

    • When one isn’t acknowledged one seldom responds well. Did you notice when the comment about sourdough came up? When I said I ate bread from sprouted grains, which she ignored, which is recommend by the actual foundation connected to Dr. Price by the way. You can see that here,

      What I was trying to convey and what she clearly wasn’t interested in hearing is that many of us that are paleo consider Dr. Price’s work important and really are looking to learn more about how we can incorporate some of the foods we don’t eat on paleo back into our diets.

      I had actually sent an email in advance of the email suggesting that this could be an opportunity to make peace between two quite similar communities. I guess it was not to be.

  20. Hmmm… having not listened to the podcast yet but reading these comments, it sounds as if she went in with her sleeves rolled up prepared to win an argument, but would have been more effective if she had no preconceived notions.

    I’m interested in seeing how truly scientific her information is, because far too many advocates of certain nutritional patterns have primarily anecdoctal information.

  21. Well that was….interesting, sic.

    Actually, who in their right mind would take parenting advise she discussing?!? That has to be some of the dumbest stuff I have ever heard. This entire unschooling and learning through play stuff has got to stop. The entire point of parenting is to teach your kids. Kids don’t have the benefit of exposure to know what they want to learn, or what might be interesting. It is the parent’s role to give them that exposure. I think a lot of people buy into this philosophy to be lazy about teaching their kids.

    I am not condoning helicopter parenting. That is just as bad as the lazy parent. My point is simple: Don’t insult the intelligence of your kids. It is amazing to teach them topics, and then see how they digest it, and then incorporate into their play, conversations and stories in the future. ALWAYS, tell them to try something a few times, give them space to do it, and probably fail, and then offer to help after that. Kids want praise and to know that they are contributing to the family, so give them opportunities even if it means it will make folding the laundry or loading the dishwasher will take way longer than you were planning. Kids will always play at whatever they are doing. Their world is very tactile. But what we are trying to accomplish as teachers is help nurture that intimate relationship between the mind and the physical.

    Realize that your kids pay attention to every single thing you do because they are looking for guidance and emulation. You are not trying to be some perfect person. I can’t tell you how many times I get asked question I reply, “I don’t know.” You merely have to be honest with them, and they can accept that. I have told my kids many times that they will realize over time that for every one thing I teach them, there are probably a thousand things your father has no understanding of, and some things you might be able to prove your daddy wrong, and that is fine too.

    But saying not to put your kid into academic situations is just stupid. Kids are sponges; it is generally the shortsightedness of adults that holds them back. I listen to audiobooks in the car, and my 3 year old piped-up, and asked what is a force (the book was telling the story of the Wright brothers being bicycle mechanics figuring out the airplane faster than the engineers). I had him hold up his hand, and I push it back with my finger: that is force. Then I had told him to not let me push his hand: that is a reaction to force. I thought we were done, about 5 minutes later, still listening to the book, he speaks up and says, letting the air out of the balloon during his brother’s birthday party is a force. That made me smile. Yes, that is absolutely correct.

    Don’t insult the capabilities and intelligence of your kids; teach them.

  22. “Actually, who in their right mind would take parenting advise she discussing?!? That has to be some of the dumbest stuff I have ever heard. This entire unschooling and learning through play stuff has got to stop. The entire point of parenting is to teach your kids. Kids don’t have the benefit of exposure to know what they want to learn, or what might be interesting. It is the parent’s role to give them that exposure. I think a lot of people buy into this philosophy to be lazy about teaching their kids.”

    Really? She said nothing about unschooling. We are using the Trivium method and are happy with the results, but we don’t think the unschooling method is wrong. In fact, it is hard for us, after making the decision to take the responsibly of the education of our own kids, to criticize the decision of other parents who make considerable sacrifices to do the same.

    She was talking about education up to the age of 7 if I remember properly.

    I would be curious what makes one so against unschooling or any other “schooling” process. Unless you have taken up homeschooling and/or have tried “unschooling” and found fault.

    Frankly, there is nothing lazy about homeschooling, “unschooling” or otherwise. You sound like someone with an opinion, but no knowledge base to support you opinion.

    • First question, how old are your kids? Mine are 3 and 1, she was aiming both barrels at my family. Read my post below about our experience with pre-school. I can only assume yours or others you know had very bad experiences with pre-school. Our family plan is actually to be homeschooling the boys once they reach grade school age, but to do that we both need to work to get much of the rest of our life in order to do this in the future.

      The issue I take with much with the ‘self-directed by the child’s interest’ philosophy that most of the loudest voices of these movements spew is that it is based on the parents own prejudices and lack of knowledge. Children don’t know what might interest them because they haven’t been exposed to it. The kids are far too sheltered, and it seems that the sheltering get even worse as I have met many families that did some type of learning method outside of the typical school environment, public or private. The best I can distill it down to is the fact that:

      1. many subjects are beyond the capabilities of the parent/person teach it, and information is not properly vetted.

      2. religious bias (instantaneous creation or evolution is the 3rd rail of these people), IMHO, these people are doing a huge dis-service to their kids. I teach the mess out of evolution to the 3yo, he loves dinosaurs, so it makes it easy. And I am a christian. These are not mutually exclusive beliefs. But I am a hard science guy anyway.

      3. social naivete, the family ends-up spending so much time trying to keep the house running, education the kids, etc that the day is done, and no outside social exposure happens or is merely limited to close family and friends. Navigating life/people is a huge component that I see both in the kids and surprisingly in the parents as they almost become isolated as well.

      4. internet, for all the good things about the web, most appear to think that somehow this is the answer to all the problems I mention above. I shake my head because the web is a dangerous place for people that do not have good critical thinking skills. Technology will not solve all our problems, and discussions like this (blogs, forums, social sites, etc) are hardly a good substitute for real relationships were signals such as facial expressions, body movements, tone of voice, etc all play a role in our learning.

      I will admit that speaking in general terms about the entire segment sitting outside of typical school environment is not fair. I want to home-school my kids in the future, but their are many people with bullhorns about it that have no business talking about it, and would probably be wise to just stick their kids in a public school from what I can tell about their level of education.

      This woman sounds like one of them, she was at least smart enough to realize this as stated in her bio: “When the youngest of her four children became old enough to attend school full time,…”

      • Be careful accepting an old earth and evolution along with Christianity. Like it or not you are setting your children up for contradictions if you want them to take the teachings of Jesus literally. Before you right me off, I taught public high school science(earth and ocean) 4 yrs. and went to a secular college. I’m no “know it all”, but Jesus (and rest of new testament) clearly taught that death came into the world from the sin of Adam and Eve, that the world was flooded and destroyed in the days of Noah(Matt24:37-38), and that Jonah was swallowed by a “big fish(Matt 12:39)”. Also modern science has found and verified preserved soft tissue in dinosaurs (
        Evolutionists have been claiming Earth was “old” long before radiometric dating techniques were developed, and many contradictions appear in radiometric dates, some for known reasons and others for unknown. Check out and other sources before you tell your kids dino’s are millions of years old. What the nature article didn’t mention is all the studies that show it is not possible for cell structures to be preserved more than a few thousand years under the absolute best conditions possible. Keep digging and an open mind! :o)

        • As an “old earth,” and “local flood” Christian, I have to say that your interpretation of the New Testament authors is not the view of all Christians. In fact, the “young earth” and “global flood” views are less than 200 years old. In fact, the Jews/Hebrews have always believed in an old earth and have never claimed the scriptures were to be used to answer those questions.

          And as far as death entering the world through Adam’s sin. It was not physical death, but spiritual death. God said that Adam would die the very day he ate of the fruit. Yet he lived (physically) for another couple hundred years.

          Check out for a more complete explanation.

          But I would agree that if you force Christianity into a young earth, global flood, no death before Adam interpretation, then you better keep your kids far away from all things science.

      • You are clearly misinformed if you think any majority of Jews have historically believed in an old Earth. How can the genealogies of Genesis ever be interrupted to suggest an old earth. When graphed out these ages show significant changes in lifespans after the flood, suggesting major shifts in Earth’s “livability”.
        When Jesus referenced the flood he said, ” For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”
        So when Jesus returns, is it only going to be local?
        Also you added a word to what God said in Genesis. It doesn’t say they will die “that day”. No doubt it was part spiritual separation, but it never said anything about immediate death that I can find.
        Why build a huge ark to save the animals if its only a local flood? Just tell them to move?
        What is the origin of all the sedimentary rock on the continents? I know historical Geo says millions of years of shallow seas, but these answers are inadequate.

      • Genesis 2:17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

        Some of the modern translations, namely the NIV, have taken out the word “day” because they see the clear problem with it.

        I am not here to argue with you but just to say to other readers that a Christian does not need to believe in a young earth and global flood. Nowhere does the Bible give the age of the earth or claim that the flood was a global flood. To say otherwise is reading into the text. I am totally fine with you or anyone else taking a physical / literal interpretation of creation and Christ’s return, but there are plenty of people both today and for thousands of years who see the creation account (and Jonah) as allegory. The Bible is full of allegory especially when referring to the sun, moon, and stars.

        God could have parted the flood water or picked them up and placed them on a floating saucer in the clouds if he wanted to also but he chose an arc because of the symbolism (allegory).

        Could it have been a global flood and could the earth only be 6,000 years old? Sure. But the Bible simply is not clear on the matter and neither is history or science.

      • You are right, I’m sorry for saying you added something, I was reading a different part of the story, like I said spiritual death was a major part of it, but that doesn’t mean you can none of the story is based in fact. There is a lot of detailed information about how the flood happened in the bible.
        I’m also not here to argue, but to say that there are a lot of people who love science, and are formally educated in the field, that do believe in a young earth, and are doing actual PHD level science to support there position (

        The main point I wanted to make is that major mental gymnastics will have to be preformed when reading the new testament to separate it from a literal interpretation of Genesis. Also, thorough analysis has been done on the verb usage of Genesis 1-5, and it was not written in the form of an allegory. I do wish you would address some of the science (soft dino tissue), and the fact that there is a “Jewish calendar” that dates to about ~5800.

      • For the record, I also don’t think you need to believe in a young earth to be a Christian. The main stream simply doesn’t point out any evidence that supports the idea when it arises(measureable C14 found in all diamonds and coal, etc.), and the data for an evolutionary worldview just isn’t as strong as most suggest.

      • The beautiful thing about applying a Hebrew mindset to the Bible is that I don’t have to “prove” anything. Also, my faith is not shattered when scientists or archaeologists discover something new. The problem I see is that Christianity has tried to apply a “Greek mindset” to the Hebrew scriptures. The modern university comes from Plato’s Academy where the entire universe would be explained within its halls. Most of western thought including the ideas about language and logic, natural science, math, ethics, politics, aesthetics, theology, etc. can be traced to Plato. This thought also pervades the church from authors to seminaries to the average believer.
        The Hebraic mindset however was never concerned with these abstract ideas of the ancient Greeks. Reality to the Hebrew was regarded in terms of divine encounter, dialog, antimony, paradox, mystery, etc. Hebrew thinking tended to be more dynamic, more poetic, more dramatic.
        The ancient Hebrew did not ask, “What is truth?” or “What is the nature of good?” or “What is time? To the Hebrew, time was rooted in historical experiences such as the Exodus from Egypt and “appointed events.”

        To the Hebrew … truth is very experiential and personal.

        So while I have no problem with people spending hundreds of hours researching and debating science and time, as I once did, I instead spend my time trying to have more of a Hebrew mindset where I can experience paradox, mystery, poetry, and beauty.

        Shalom brother!

      • From “But I am a hard science guy anyway” to “The beautiful thing about applying a Hebrew mindset to the Bible is that I don’t have to “prove” anything”

        It’s called relativism, what’s “true” to you doesn’t have to be true to everyone. It doesn’t take much thought to see the error in this, which was my original point, your children will see the holes in your logic. Shalom love a dove, far out and solid

      • So the Hebrews were relativists? Relativism means you don’t believe in truth. That’s not what I said or believe. I am sorry you can’t wrap your mind around the concept and have to label Hebrew thought with a derogatory term. The Bible was written by Hebrews, to Hebrews, for Hebrews, etc. Jesus was a Hebrew and actually didn’t have blue eyes and a British accent. You worry about your kids and I’ll worry about mine. And if you think God and the Bible can be “proven” true then you obviously don’t know what “faith” means. And if your faith must be “proven” true or supported by science and logic, then I am sorry.

        Run along now.

    • Last comment, I promise, and it’s mostly a question. Where did you learn about the Hebrew people from? I understand Christians were “grafted into the Jewish tree” Romans 9-11.

      My people perish for lack of knowledge.

      I truly wish the best for you and your children, I’m sorry if I came across rude.

      • Just in my personal study in trying to understand the Bible more. Learned a little Hebrew. I really think audience relevance is important. I constantly ask myself, especially when reading the New Testament, What would the original audience have interpreted the letter or passage.

        All my best to you and your family.

  23. But saying not to put your kid into academic situations is just stupid. Kids are sponges; it is generally the shortsightedness of adults that holds them back. I listen to audiobooks in the car, and my 3 year old piped-up, and asked what is a force (the book was telling the story of the Wright brothers being bicycle mechanics figuring out the airplane faster than the engineers). I had him hold up his hand, and I push it back with my finger: that is force. Then I had told him to not let me push his hand: that is a reaction to force. I thought we were done, about 5 minutes later, still listening to the book, he speaks up and says, letting the air out of the balloon during his brother’s birthday party is a force. That made me smile. Yes, that is absolutely correct.

    I don’t think that’s what was meant by “academic situation” There’s a world of difference between supporting a child being curious about something, asking about it, and then applying the new information on his own and sitting your child down at a desk and telling them “ok Johnny today we’re going to learn about force cause that’s what the curriculum says”. I seriously doubt she was arguing “don’t teach your children anything until they’re 7” I think she was saying more that “children are equipped and programmed to learn naturally through play, curiosity, exploration, talking to parents/siblings/relatives/friends/etc., trying to force them into a rigid academic environment such a formal school at too young an age (or at any age for that matter) can easily do more harm than good.

    Your experience with your 3 y.o. is I think I great example of how kids WANT to learn. Locking them up in schools for 7 hours a day during which they might receive 30 minutes of actual instruction and MAYBE 5 minutes of 1 on 1 instruction, is how they do not learn.

    • I think the real argument is what should pre-school/daycare look like?

      Both my wife and I work. We can argue over the fact of having your family live off any single parent’s income so one is home all day. However, for now, we both have to work, so that means that the boys need a caregiver. The grandparents live a half a continent away, so that is not an option. The only option based on our circumstances is pre-school.

      From the consumer side, it can be daunting: Balancing the cost against the people and facilities you are trusting your child with. The school we happened to get into has proven currently to be a good choice, but the cost is brutal. We can afford it; it just doesn’t leave as much room for vacations and the house isn’t getting paid off as fast as I would like.

      I understand the situation of any parent, and do not berate them for whatever solution they make for their family. As long as the solution proves beneficial for the entire family; not just the selfishness of a parent that just doesn’t want to teach their kid, or not want to spend the extra money for a decent school, etc., so the parent(s) have more ‘play’ money.

      The pre-school does have an academic component to it. They teach the kids sign language (we teach it at home as well), they make field trips to the library and to the park, the 3yo counts dam near to 100 but for some reason he doesn’t like 6s (56, 66, 76, etc.), realizes that 20 is greater than 10, he not only ask me the word on the page but how to spell it (he knows the entire alphabet from signing and can spell because of it).

      They put my kid into academic situations, and they also realize that little boys are pure energy that want to run in circles half the day and stomp the bugs on the sidewalk. He wants me to pitch to him so he can hit the ball when we go to the park in the evenings. He actually hits the ball more than I thought, and all I have done is tell and show him the concept of eye-hand coordination.

      My point isn’t to say that we are some type of ‘tiger-parents’ which seems to be a term that is en vogue, or that my kids are some type of geniuses. Quite the opposite, we try to keep ourselves in situations were we are constantly learning as adults, and merely realize the fact that the kids are fully capable of learning what many consider higher-level concepts even at young ages. And the baby is coming along as well with his sign language. Do they get plenty of time to dream and play alone? You bet, and I think the older one actually plays with the baby better because he had to learn to play with friends at school. People that poo-poo school settings I think underestimate the value of the social aspects kids need to learn.

      I would give-up everyone of the things I mention for the single moment that happen with the 3yo a few months back. His class had a new boy enter over the summer that has down syndrome. The boy was coming unglued because of the new environment and being away from his parents. Seeing him crying and so upset, my son went over and gave him a hug and told him it was going to be okay. I heard all this second-hand from the teacher, and that little boy gets so excited and well adjusted because my son is his friend in the class.

      None of the other stuff matters, the fact that something in all the stuff we and his school have been teaching him added up to his response. That is what our goal is. Period.

  24. If your relating it to Darwins theory ,maybe you should read Spontaneous evolution , By the very popular Bruce Lipton

  25. I’ve read a lot of Fallon’s works – agree with most of basic message. I’ve listened to several podcast/interviews. She’s always defensive! I’ve yet to hear her discuss any part of her work where she doesn’t strike out at the interviewer when even a slight difference comes up. For me, unfortunately, it tends to discount her message. Nobody is right 100% of the time and humility isn’t always bad stance to take.

  26. I like the intro material about year 1200. I know you don’t want it to be too long usually, but to start this and put it in context a little history would be nice. If there is a slow day I would really like to hear Jack’s take on some of the events that caused so many English/French wars. Particularly the Norman invasion:

  27. Like Sarah, I had already listened to Sally Fallon through Jimmy Moore. From that interview I gathered that Sally had been deeply disappointed in Loren Cordain’s intellectual dishonesty. They had been part of a group looking at all the research on hunter/gatherer peoples where they all saw the same archaeological evidence, and then Cordain decided to promote Paleo as if the evidence for high fat eating by hunter/gatherer groups did not exist. I do not think the historical and archaeological record supports continual eating of lean meats. I wondered years ago if Cordain had sold out to mainstream academia to get funding and a platform to be heard. Anecdotally, I do much better with a lot of animal fat in my diet. I have been eating low carb/paleo for almost 17 years. I do not agree with Sally on grains. But, with lupus grains are a nightmare for me health-wise. I don’t understand the obsession with grains and trying to get them in one’s diet no matter what. Sprouted, fermented or whatever – modern wheat is nothing like ancient wheat. However, some advice I received awhile ago which I try to implement is this: take in information like you eat pot roast- eat the good fat and meat and discard the gristle. 🙂

    • What I think is Cordain drew his own independent conclusions. While I disagree with some of them, specifically on fat I don’t think he is dishonest.

      Also I am NOT Cordain, I am not even an advocate of what he does. Paleo isn’t “A DIET” it is a concept and many different people use the same data and come to different conclusions. Most of them consider each other colleges instead of adversaries.

      Wolf disagrees with Cordain on some things but calls him and I quote “a class act”.

  28. The only time I have really heard Rob Wolf promote lean meats is in regards to avoiding too much omega-6 fats (example chicken) and he has promoted a diet with plenty of healthy, saturated fats.

    Sally is making a way bigger deal of the fat angle than needs be and while I believe she makes good points the way she goes about it is very off putting. The biggest difference between Paleo and the WPF dietary recommendations for me is that “paleo” is very experimental and willing to discuss and accept new ideas (the approach to carbs in the diet have been a good example of this) whereas the WPF seems sort of fundamentalist about their perspectives. They have good fundamentals but seem rather closed minded on anything that challenges some of what they promote.

    Many in paleo have reached out to the WPF in the spirit of discovery only to be met with hostile defensiveness and promotion of the very misassumptions they accuse the paleo perspective of. Nobody has called BS on Loren Cordain’s original position on saturated fat than the paleo community and he is asked about it in every interview he has given for a while. Everywhere you look from the works of Jimmy Moore to Mark’s Daily Apple its all about getting lots of healthy fats and that they are essential to health and optimal brain function. It would be nice if Sally and others in the WPF would stop spreading misinformation. It really seems to have the taste of sour grapes to be honest and there is no need for that.

    • I listened to here podcast on Living La Vida Low Carb, well as much as I could.

      Simply put she feels betrayed by Loren Cordain and has lumped EVERYTHING with the paleo name into that little war of hers.

      Sadly she could not seem to understand I am NOT Loren Cordain and Neither is Robb Wolf or MANY other people in the Paleo community.

      • Truly. I was especially surprised with how defensive she was on Jimmy’s show. You don’t get more pro-high-fat diet than LLVLC.

  29. I am very interested in WAP information, but not from Mrs Fallon. Maybe Jack can host another WAP speaker sometime.

    • He’s actually had a few others on. He seems to be working himself up the hierarchy a bit, first interviewing a local chapter head, then the guy managing Mrs. Fallon’s farm, and then finally Mrs. Fallon herself.

        • David Getoff of Price-Pottenger would be an amazing guest. I heard an interview with him on the Underground Wellness podcast. He taught me that agave syrup was a waste product from the tequila industry and marketed as a health food like soy.

  30. My gut reaction, a little more than halfway into this show, is that Mrs. Fallon needs her own podcast or show. She’s not interested in having a discussion with someone, especially with someone who may have some points of minor disagreement with her. She’s really just interested in giving a speech abut her area of interest, with minimal interaction from another person. Even when the drama quieted down, the woman just could not help herself but start talking over Jack any time he spent more than a few seconds speaking.

    This isn’t to say she’s a bad lady, or that her info wasn’t worthwile, she just doesn’t seem suited for the interview format, at least int he role of interviewee.

    • Yea listen to my comments today. I agree fully. If I knew then what I know now I wouldn’t even have discussed it with her.

      FTR the ONLY REASON I did is quite a few members of this audience asked me to ask her about it.

    • Yeah but even outside of the tension, she really was talking over you quite a bit. You role, in her mind, was basically to just ask the right questions, very briefly, to allow her to continue talking about her work.

      • It is agrivating dealing with such people. You can hear her often on her end while I am talking making sounds like

        uh uh-huh yea um uh

        Under her breath like some kid just itching to jump into a double dutch rope. Like all she wanted to do was speak and not have a single thing said that didn’t 100% agree with her and 95% was damn sure not enough.

        Anyway I am writing an article this weekend called “What is a Paleo Diet” that might clear up confusion at least for those who are interested anyway. It won’t have a thing to do with Fallon though.

    • actually, I think she did bring up rabbit starvation appropriately. She was revering to animal protein being consumed with little to no fat. Which is the lone truth surrounding the Rabbit starvation myth.

      • Though it is a weak ass argument as it pertains to grass fed beef when said beef has the leanest cuts in the range of 15%.

        Rabbit starvation has NOTHING to do with protein, it is about NO FAT at all, it is about starving people eating starving animals. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with lean cuts of meat as she inferred.

        • I stand corrected. I don’t know why I included the animal protein part. The fat is the only important part of the rabbit starvation thing.
          I didn’t realize that she was speaking to beef alone when talking about the rabbit starvation part, I thought she was talking about not getting fats in lean meats in general.

      • Jack, it would be very easy to follow her advice to eat grass fed beef and to also consume much more fat than the average person who eats conventional beef (or wild rabbits!). That’s because much of the animal’s fat is not in the muscle, which is the only part that most people eat. But following Fallon’s advice, someone would be eating marrow, plus all of the fat deposits that are usually trimmed off by the butcher. In an extreme form, her diet would involve eating the fattiest parts and actually feeding some of the leanest parts to the dogs and chickens — basically, the reverse of what most people do today.

        Incidentally, I’ve found that fat and bones from grass fed sources is often cheaper than is the conventional stuff at my grocery store. Basically, almost no one is following this advice, so that might be one reason that Fallon is kind of exercised about it! Of course it was painfully obvious to your listeners that she was resisting your attempts to agree with her!

        • “she was resisting your attempts to agree with her”

          Do you know how maddening that is? LMAO

  31. For anyone looking to meet other preppers, I highly recommend your local WAPF chapter. I’m a member of the very first WAPF chapter, Sally inaugurated the movement right here in New Hampshire, in person, after my neighbors read Nourishing Traditions and invited her to speak at a picnic! You can meet so many cool, like-minded people and learn so many things at WAPF meetings! About 1/3 of us are Paleo and/or grain free. There are so many complimentary lifestyles: Guts and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS), Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD), Paul Jaminet’s “Perfect Health Diet” (PHD), Bulletproof Diet, etc. within the sphere. I would love to hear as a guest on TSP, Sean Croxton, of who condenses it into JERF-Just Eat Real Foods!
    Dr. Cordain changed his views on fat. Here is an interview with him:
    (also a great guest and a Granite Stater!) Interesting that Paleo is so popular due to the internet. Too much fermented grape juice…better stop…

      • Contact him and tell him to complete a guest form. I would love to learn more about Price’s work without an argument and an attitude.

  32. My oldest daughter and one daughter in law both have used the Nourishing Traditions book for some time. My daughter lost 100 lbs in about a year, for the most part following close to the Weston Price diet, doing her own research. (part of that loss was birth of a baby). My youngest daughter has this fear that they’ll sneak some fermented food disguised as a treat into her diet. Yet she is a big yogurt fan.

    When I first heard Jack speak about paleo what struck me was the similarity of the diets. I figure the foods on both groups bad lists are junk none of us should be eating.

    Challenges I’ve seen are finding better food sources, the additional cost. (However, junk food/convenience food is pricey compared to cooking your own). Time to shop in less traditional ways, time to cook these foods, ferment and sprout. In families where both spouses work that is hard to fit it all in.

    For that matter, trying to cook everything from scratch, bone broth, sprouted and fermented grains while homeschooling 2 little ones and a new baby, and start a garden all at once would be overwhelming. Now to simply stir-fry some meat and veggies, a piece a fruit, a salad are very doable vs bone broth soup and fermented grains. Homemade soups are great, and my youngest with the fear of fermented food swore off canned soups a long time ago. Won’t touch them. If you eat less grains not so bad to bake some bread once a week or so.

    Creative, unstructured play/learning is best. Maybe that is a better term than unschooling. I’ve been blessed with brilliant creative kids. Other parents were like “Are you going to sign them up for chess club?” (a first grader?) “Extra tutoring?” Nope, I’d simply let them be kids.

    And yes, you do have to supervise, patch up skinned knees, provide materials (large cardboard box, duct tape, sticks, ball, blocks, mud, water are all readily available) . Happier kids and less stressed parents by simply letting them be kids instead of micromanaging their time. Chores first, then free play.

    • Easy broth.

      1. Get a solar oven

      2. Get bones

      3. Put water in pot with bones

      4. Put sun oven in sun

      5. Put pot of bones in oven

      6. Move oven perhaps 4 times during the day takes about 5 seconds to do

      Nothing can burn, at the end of the day you have bad ass broth.

      Second way, do the same thing with a slow cooker, it is even easier. From there soup is add some meat and veggies and salt and herbs and perhaps a bit more water.

    • Slow cooker does work great for bone broth, not tried solar oven. Simply let it simmer overnight and strain out the bones. Main thing is planning ahead.

      Eggs are quick too and not too hard to find locally.

      However, many recipes are not so quick, I remember how much time this young mother spent making chicken enchiladas, cooking the chicken, making bone broth, fermented grain tortillas, etc. then putting it all together. OK for a special occasion, not practical time wise for everyday eating. She had no issues with making her own yogurt.

      Trick may be finding a dozen plus meals your family loves which you can quickly put together with stuff you can buy locally.

    • It is sad too because so many in paleo/primal etc. really admire her work, her attitude is a different matter.

  33. The rub with fats is definitely a miscommunication. Paleo certainly believes in fat. Just not the fat derived from grain fed commercially grown animals.

  34. I agree that she came across as unnecessary aggressive but maybe it’s partially a tonal thing. Some people come across better in writing.

  35. I’m playing the interview now and honestly, I can barely hear a word she says. Her aggression and tone has my brain and ears wanting to go somewhere else. Think I’ll pass on her writing. Have more to learn from better educators.

  36. Wikipedia on Paleo, check citations 52,62,63.

    All advocate high percentage of fat in diet.

    This lady just started making claims without any real knowledge. Did she think TSP was a bunch of sheople that are as bad at using Google as she is?

    I hope all the W A Price people aren’t like this…

    • “I hope all the W A Price people aren’t like this…”

      They are not, I had a very high opinion of the WAPF before this, now I have a very high opinion of most of their members and frankly what this lady needs to learn is clear. I know that I am NOT TSP, you guys are, I am just the guy with the microphone. That is who she is for WAPF, but I don’t feel that she gets that.

  37. Any and all interest I might have had in the WAP Foundation vanished after listening to that woman act like an hysterical 5 year old. Newsflas- if you call yourself a professional, ACT LIKE ONE. Talk about blowing a fantastic opportunity for free promotion to 85,000 people.

    • Check out the official foundation which continued the work of Dr. Price and his contemporary Dr. Pottenger. Also listen to my comments on episode 1200 in follow up to this. If I only knew then what I know now! I frankly don’t think I would have bothered to accept Sally as a guest.

  38. Jeez, you guys act like she performed a human sacrifice or something. I can’t believe with all the REALLY IMPORTANT things going on in the world that this thread is still going.

    I wish Jack would do a show about the ongoing Fukushima nightmare. Now THAT’s important. Why don’t all y’all check this out, it should take your mind off mean ol’ Sally Fallon:

    • Yes because Fukushima is something we can control and do something about. Oh wait, circle of concern there, not circle of influence.

      Stop believe the hype around it as well, no everything ain’t super but it isn’t as bad as the fear merchants are telling you it is either.

      Look you control what you eat you don’t control a broken reactor in Japan do you? Additionally the influence of a person like Sally when misdirected has a negative on health but one we can do something about.

      Unless you have 100 years of food stored and a bunker to climb into for the rest of your life there are two things to do about Fukushima.

      1. Don’t eat too much seafood from the sea of Japan
      2. Nothing

      There was a whole lot more radiation exposure to people in the US when we detonated bombs in our own deserts then the Japanese disaster will ever lead to for us. If you live near Japan, its a problem, here it isn’t. If it were there wouldn’t be much you could do anyway.

  39. I enjoyed the conversation even if it did get off to a rocky start. My step into healthy food was buying, reading, and cooking with Sally’s book. I have since moved onto a GAPS diet and as we heal plan on a more Paleo diet. Without these books (NT and GAPS) I would have struggled to change my diet and would not have had the documentation to argue with friends, family, and doctors that what I was doing was ‘unhealthy’. We are not going to agree with every person we come into contact with but as Jack said a few days ago. “Spread your belief by example, never with force.” Arguing does not get you anywhere with a person who’s mind is set. You are better (as Jack did) to find your points of agreement and move on. Jack you did a great job!

  40. Hi, Jack.

    I enjoy your show and have learned a lot. I think I first heard of Permaculture through you. I just finished the Geoff Lawton on-line course and am finishing up my design project. Thanks for making that possible for me.

    I’m saying this in hopes that you’ll take what I have to say to heart and not assume that I have any ill will.

    I think you broke some rules with your interview. First, you poisoned the well by introducing it with a fairly long commentary that immediately aligned the majority of your listeners with your interpretation of the interview and against Sally’s. Secondly, you seemed to have gone into the interview with an agenda to confront and teach her, which is the opposite of what a good interview should be.

    I like you and I like Sally Fallon. I did not find her defensive, nor unwilling to listen to you. In fact, I believe she had the paleo community’s best interests at heart. Suggesting that Robb Wolf change his web site is an extremely reasonable thing to say. “Lean Meats” is right there on the main page. There might be better information as you dig in, but that won’t change first impressions. Making it clear what WAPF believes is also very reasonable of her.

    I hope you can reconsider your point-of-view on this and repair the relationship with Sally.

    • Well Chris, you are entitled to your opinion but as I said above Sally had agreed to discuss this issue PRIOR to the interview.

      If stating your view and expecting to be heard before being responded to is “poison” so be it.

      I frankly have NO DESIRE for a relationship with Sally at this point as long as she insists on behaving the way she did here. Like I have also said this isn’t the only place she has done so, she is clearly more concerned about owning the Price brand then what others have to say and the opinions of others.

      Again as well she doesn’t own the Price brand, her organization isn’t directly affiliated with Price, the PPNF is

      I feel she wants to be the absolute end of the line decider on what is or isn’t “Price Approved” fortunately she doesn’t get to do that.

      No one prevented her from saying what the WAPF’s guidelines were, the argument was over claims that she made about others that are factually untrue.

      If you listen to other interviews where she tells her story you will find the truth, she feels somehow personally betrayed by Loren Cordain when he published his first book. That is frankly the hallmark of a wounded human being, said folks can’t discuss such issues rationally. If you and I do some research together and you publish your findings as counter to my conclusions I won’t agree with you, but I don’t feel you betrayed me. This is clearly how she feels about Cordain and to Sally Cordain IS PALEO because she says so and because for God sake his website is first on google!

      And frankly this is the bullshit about lean meats on Robs site, saying you eat lean meats doesn’t mean you don’t eat fat. Lean meats means pastured meats, the same damn kind Sally is producing on her ranch.

      Again it simply appears that Sally wants to control how the Price name is used. I am going to be sure I do my part so people understand that the WAPF isn’t what it sounds like it is, that way they won’t make the mistake of citing it improperly and that way Sally should be happy.

      We can just cite the actual organization.

      Oh and there is a reason Sally keeps hearing Paleo and how it relates to Dr. Price, paleo people are sending lots of business her way, quite by accident. Paleo is a hell of a lot more popular then the WAPF, she should be grateful for the exposure they give her. Instead she sees them as an overly successful competitor and one doing much better, you can see her real problem here,

  41. If paleo people are alot about losing weight or keeping it off, then maybe a lean diet is fine or some lean meat. After all, there’s plenty of sources of fats and oils in a typical diet.

    I would like to learn more about the gluten thing and the mention of sourdough bread. If you just lump all carbs together then I am not sure it makes sense to me ..

  42. Hey Jack,

    Angelo Coppola of the ‘Latest in Paleo’ podcast and ‘humans are not broken’ blog would be an excellent guest. He has actually recently made a move to likely begin homesteading and livibg much more simply. Quit his marketing job and now full time podcasts. He has an excellent view on Paleo, in my opinion, and a great quality podcast.

    -Richard J

  43. Archer from the forum here. I’ve listen to all of your episodes so far but I had to turn this one off and skip it, I cannot stand listening to her…

    • If you listen to my first part of 1201, it all becomes clear. Very clear. The name “Weston A Price Foundation” really leads people astray.

      1. Listen to my part right after the intro in 1201
      2. For the real Price Foundation see

      Thanks for all your support man!