Episode-959- AAR from Rob Gray about his Testimony on Parallel Currencies — 27 Comments

  1. All I can write is… I am grateful and relieved beyond words that individuals like Mr. Rob Gray exist… are knowledgeable and express their voice with courage and resolve. Thank you Jack for advocating this gentleman and for inviting him to be a guest on your program.
    The idea of ‘ignoring’ the Federal Reserve resonated powerfully versus a movement to ‘end’ the Federal Reserve.

  2. Just heard the testimony, listening to the rest of the show now.

    About the opening comment I just want to say “holy shit!”. That was amazing. Thieves indeed…

  3. My 2 cents, just like the theatrics put on by the Dems vs Repubs, Ron Paul is more likely part of the whole “show”, intended to add false legitimacy to the system. I say that as someone who used to be a huge RP supporter. Now I think his role is to give an appearance of “fairness” where all points of view are represented, when in fact they are not. He’s just another actor intended to continue the status quo.

  4. About the “tax on barter” issue…

    The way it would work on a large scale is like this (i.e. what if Ford was gong to do it):

    Ford produces something (a car) and it costed them 10,000 to do it. They trade that car for some other asset. By tax law, the “revenue” would be whatever that something sells for in the open market in an arms length transaction. Lets say the “other” asset was gold, and Ford received 10 oz of gold, which is worth about 16,000 dollars. In that example, Ford had 16,000 of revenue for a car that costed them 10,000 so that’s 6,000 taxable income.

    In other words, all barter is not a wash from the perspective of the IRS.

    • I have to add, Rob said that accepting silver coins in exchange for a service or good is not a taxable event and that is definitely bad tax advice.

      I myself am an anarcho-capitalist, but if you are going to revolt, you should at least understand the rules against which you are revolting.

        • After you asked about the “Rob Gray” note and and the tax issue. Here is a partial transcript:

          Rob: “The strange thing about tax is that it’s really kind of irrelevant when it comes to barter.” (my comment: that’s incorrect) “In barter, there’s no gain on either end of the transaction assuming you have a fair and equitable barter transaction.” (My comment: Again that’s not true. The gain is always the thing received and it can be offset by the cost of what was given up. For individuals or companies who are not in the business of selling the thing traded, its more cloudy and you get into “exchanges” but the principle is the same. This is probably not a huge deal for individuals, but it’s dangerous tax advice for merchants.)

          (I’m skipping some conversation, but now we get into specifically merchants accepting metal for goods. He is using a flight service as an example and this is where he specifically says that barter is not a taxable event.)

          Rob (talking about a sponsor): “They do executive jet travel service… He said you know I want to start accepting silver and gold. I said you know give me a price. He said well a light jet service would be 1 oz of gold per hour. So if you need a three hour trip somewhere it’s gonna be three ounces of gold. And that’s really what we want to see. Just leave dollars completely out of it. ‘Cause if dollars are no longer involved you’re just trading property for property and that’s it, it’s not a taxable event in my opinion.”

          And his opinion, in this matter, is wrong and very dangerous advice. It’s the kind of thing the IRS would eagerly pursue tax evasion charges against (a criminal action as opposed to the more usual civil action common with unpaid taxes) if only to make an example.

        • Also, later he is discussing about how gold and silver are not legal tender and how that is a good thing. He states (right around the 45 min mark) that gold and silver are considered property and as such.

          Rob (discussing “state issues”): Right now gold and silver are not considered legal tender.” … “Gold and silver are not monetary instruments.” … “And as long as they are not …monetary instruments, the government can’t track them, they don’t ask you to report them, they let you trade them; their treated as property, not as money. And so as long as that’s the case (jack interrupts).

          My comment: When he says they dont ask you to report them, he is clearly referring to income, and that is flat out wrong.

          Jack: Is that true though because my understanding is that when I accept silver as a business person I’m supposed to report the value of that silver as income. ”

          Rob: “Well they want you to report any kind of income in capital gain. And so they look at it as property. So if you bought a house…” (skipping the rest)

          At this point he gets into rules around exporting of cash vs gold. But that’s got nothing to do with the internal revenue code. The conversation steers away from income tax.

          I admire what Rob is doing, but he’s clearly not educated on the tax issues here. He is flat out wrong and his advise is dangerous. If you accept silver bullion for services you are best advised to report the cash value of that as revenue for services provided.

        • @Blueprint, I will let Rob decide if and how to respond to you but as to your contention that this is “dangerous tax advice”. Allow me to refer you to My Disclaimers page, Section One, Article One.

          “1. The Survival Podcast is marketed as and in fact is “one man’s opinion”. This show is not nor should it or anything said on it or printed on its’ website be construed as “legal, tax or financial advice”. If you make investing or legal decisions after listening to this show it is recommended that you consult a qualified professional first. If you don’t the decision is yours and yours alone.”

          So NOTHING on this show is tax advice and it has been said on the air many times as well. So we can’t give dangerous tax advice only opinions.

          Next let me state that as a public figure I report every penny, definitely some stuff I would never be called on if I didn’t but in my line of work I stay squeaky clean. I also “sandbag deductions”, meaning there are always some deductions I don’t take I could have. Should I get audited, the first thing I can say is, “I am so glad we are doing this, I forgot several thousand dollars in deductions”.

          Now that said it is up to others to decide what to report under certain circumstances. If you do work on Toms car and he fixes your AC technically BOTH of you are to report it as income because it is on labor. Do you? It is really necessary even if required by law? Is there any way they can actually come after you for that or track it? Is a baby sitter you hire for 8 bucks an hour supposed to report it as income? Does she?

          Now on property exchange, it isn’t like labor. If I have peppers and you have onions and the trade is for such only profit is taxed, that is what I stated and it is true.

        • I’m not suggesting people don’t fudge on what they report.

          You have guests on your show to provide people with information. I understand you have disclaimers to cover your from a strictly legal standpoint but aside from that I assumed (perhaps incorrectly?) you would still prefer that information be technically correct when possible.

          I was just trying to offer some clarification to one particular bit of information this particular guest provided that could get someone in some serious trouble (and I’m not talking about you and I trading peppers for onions). Not trying to be argumentative. You can take it or leave it.

  5. Hello bluprint,
    Unfortunately for all of us… I wholeheartedly agree with your last post. However, I do think it preferable to be able to look behind the curtain and know what and whom is authentic versus the ignorance and apathy of the masses.
    I fail to be able to convince myself that one… just one… of the politicians is truthful, moral, trustworthy and honorable. Please excuse me for ending my post with a quote from a song from Sheryl Crow song…
    “lay back and enjoy the show”.

  6. Awesome stuff! This really opened my eyes on the legal tender law, you definitely got me on board too.

    I have to say, thanks so much Rob Gray for your work. Keep it up and I am really liking all of the Atlas Shrugged references there; Mulligan Bank is a great choice in a name. Speaking of, I think this just goes to show that the best way for us to remain free is to go Galt.

  7. I don’t think Rob Gray should feel so conflicted about his meeting with Ron Paul before the testimony. There are really two interpretations of his interaction, both of which should be acceptable to Rob IMHO. Interpretation #1 is that Ron Paul himself can’t or won’t come out directly to endorse your views for some reason. Just because he staffer said he did, doesn’t mean anything in politics (governmental or business!). Ron Paul can distance himself from the staffer if necessary to gain political cover if needed. Or perhaps he feels that his best position is “End the Fed” and you message, while perhaps a compatible goal, doesn’t further his interests. Interpretation #2 is that Ron Paul doesn’t agree with you but in the interest of liberty and free speech is willing to let you air your views on a pretty large stage. It could be that he didn’t want to deflate or unnerve you right before the hearing by telling you he didn’t agree. In either case, a good thing happened. In #1, Paul quietly agrees with you but politically won’t say it but Rob still got to state his position for the record. In #2, Paul doesn’t agree but has the dedication to the Constitution to provide Rob the stage to air a set of beliefs he doesn’t agree with. In either case, the liberty of free speech prevailed at the hearing and that’s what seems to be important to me.

    I’m not an AOCS user, but I’m glad that Rob and others are taking up these important issues. So thanks Rob!

    • I don’t think Rob would disagree with that I don’t think that was his point. His point was more if Paul wants this to go somewhere why did he bring in Rob to testify against it?

  8. I’ve been browsing around on the AOCS website, but I have yet to be able to find many merchants there. If you look at their ‘newest merchant’ page, it looks like a test page or a page under construction. When I click on the US merchants, it comes up with two only. After hearing you talk about AOCS and TSP copper for awhile now I thought I’d be able to easily find a long list of merchants who accept this currency. Am I just that bad at searching their website? There are more results on the AOCS website for companies that sell AOCS currency than ones that accept it.

    • I would like to hear Robs voice on this. I have been watching aocs since you had him on to talk about tsp copper. The market place or Craigslist feature has not been developed.

      Does anyone use the Lakota bank, I would like some reviews on that.

      • I would like to hear from Jack if he is using the Free Lakota Bank and why/why not or if he intends too. Maybe just your thoughts on FLB if you don’t want to reveal for opsec.
        Also, providing that the FLB does indeed grow, what would be necessary(hypothetically) to open another branch/franchise in say Florida or another tribal reservation (The Seminole Tribe of Florida for example)?
        Great show, Thanks

  9. I thought this was a great episode if for no other reason than he presented ideas I had never considered. I had never read the legal tender laws. I have no experience with poverty on indian reservations. Like James and Adam, I have to wonder what percentage of AOCS tokens (tokens?) are purchased for storage vs those that are used in commerce. Challenging material from all angles and deserving of a second listen. Thanks Jack.

  10. I checked out the Free Lakota Bank today. It says on their website it costs an once of silver per month to have an account there. I thought that that was not really that cheap, though maybe it could be compared to a total collapse but how and when that will happen exactly is hard to know.

    • If you put 20 oz in the general fund they wave the fees and you earn interest in silver. I might try just putting up 20 oz for now to test the waters.

  11. Rob and/or Jack,

    How doe Euro Pacific Bank match up to what Free Lakota is working to do over the next 2 years?

    They offer a gold backed debit card already, but this is not available to US citizens because for legal reasons. How will the FL avoid that problem? Has Peter done all of this already?

  12. Great podcast. However, I don’t believe the issue of not having to claim transport of gold/silver is settled. These are commodities and as such may have a LOWER threshold than cash for reporting ($2500), albeit a form (of course), Form 7525-V. I am inclined to take the advice of this article posted on Lew Rockwell:
    to quote the article: “Also in May 2010 I reported to you that U.S. Immigration and Customs (ICE) agents and Border Protection officers at the Houston, Texas at Bush airport seized almost $160,000 in gold and silver in 14 separate seizures from individual travelers during that month, none of which was involved in any criminal activity. Reason given: failure to file an obscure form called a “Shipper’s Export Declaration Form.”

  13. It was great to hear about this event however unnerving a bit to hear how no committal a man like Ron Paul was in this regard. It’s almost as if his age is catching up with him and he can’t respond as sharp as he used to. Still awesome episode Jack and Rob.