Hey Jack
My wife and I love your show but I am not able to down load the whole episode today just wondering if you could help me with that. It is only playing in the pop up window until 43:56.
Thanks Jack

Just a thought on college loans. God forbid should any parent go through this like my sister but my sisters only son died last year; My sister had co-signed on his 25k student loan. She had only a small insurance policy on him so now she is paying this off; who knows how long this will take her because she also has his huge huge doctor bills also.

Spot on regarding college. Regarding computer programming, your points were also good. I would say it is one of the fields still worth going to college for (there is a big difference between a self-taught hacker and a trained computer scientist) – but go to an in-state public university; no need for overpriced private college BS. One word of warning though… companies are starting to outsource programmer jobs to India, China, and Russia for pennies on the dollar of what an American programmer makes. So, work as an intern during school for a very low (or zero if necessary) rate, prove your value before you even graduate, and that way the company can justify the higher salary after you graduate, since you already know their systems, code, designs, products, etc.

Nice to hear you touch on a peak oil update today as well. Thanks.

More on the college situation:

Study less, earn more — at least in the beginning

Graduates with career-driven degrees from a community college tend to out-earn those with a bachelor’s degree from a four-year school. At least initially. When it comes to higher education, more may not always be better — at least when it comes to starting salaries for graduates. State employment data that track the earnings of recent graduates show those who earned a career-focused associate’s degree or postsecondary certificate from a Florida community college are in many cases making more money than bachelor’s degree recipients at state universities.

Bachelor’s degree recipients from the state’s 11 public universities earned an average starting salary of $36,552 in 2009. Meanwhile, those who received associate in science degrees from Florida community colleges earned an average of $47,708 — a difference of $11,000 more per year. The numbers prove “something like an associate’s degree certainly should not be dismissed as a meaningless level of education,”’ suggested Edwin Koc, director of strategic and foundation research at the National Association of Colleges and Employers. Long term, completing a more-advanced degree still tends to pay salary dividends. Continuing past an associate’s degree to receive a bachelor’s or master’s typically improves a person’s chances for future promotions — and, therefore, future salary bumps.

Those who completed shorter non-degree certificate programs at community colleges also out-earned state university bachelor’s recipients. Graduates of the shortest certificate programs (six months or less) earned $37,356, while those whose certificate training took up to a year earned $39,108. Those armed with only a high school diploma were — not surprisingly — at the very bottom, earning less than $21,000 per year.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/01/1996875/study-less-earn-more-at-least.html

This college stuff makes my blood boil. In my view, this is one of the most harmful scams that has been foisted on the American public ever (challenged perhaps by the would-be cap and trade scam).
Our children are being bombarded by propaganda that insists that they are worthless unless they hand thousands of dollars to a bunch of “educators.”

Just to make this clear–this isn’t sour grapes, I’m a college graduate who (luckily) didn’t have any loans, and have worked in my specific field from graduation on. So, I am not at all anti-college. I am anti-propaganda that devalues the THIRTEEN years we spend in Primary and Secondary education, insisting that we spend money (that we don’t have) in order to be respected.

To hades with that. A college degree means nothing on its own, yet that is the meaningless ticket that employers use almost universally.

Jack’s point is SPOT ON with this. If you have a purpose for going to college–great. If not, please don’t be intimidated into paying to sustain a bunch of (often) worthless professors.

@txmom sorry but unless you’re talking about some kind of 1 in a billion prodigy, a self taught programmer is way behind a formally trained computer scientist. If your son is such a prodigy, congratulations. For the vast vast majority, that will not be true. Oh sure you can teach yourself a language and maybe get by, make a decent living, especially after a lot of experience. But studying CS in college does put you on the fast track to higher income. It is one exception to the rule that college is generally a money loser these days. There are millions of Indians, Chinamen, and Russians you’re now competing with as a programmer – you’ve got to go the extra mile to make yourself worth the extra $$$.

Not to pile on Marauder, but I disagree.
First, I highly doubt when you take into account the lost years of earning, as well as the debt created by paying for college, one is definitely not earning “exponentially” more than someone who doesn’t go to college. A customer of mine who was a retired Doctor told me he would have been richer had he become a plumber than a doctor, with the same starting and ending points in his career. While anecdotal, I believe this to be true.

Another point: You said “If you think the Chinese and Indians are preaching less education, you are fooling yourself.”

True, but we are fooling ourselves if we keep perpetuating the nonsensical claim that “education” comes from a Professor at a University and nowhere else…at an immense cost. In my view, that assumption is wrong more often than not.

The fact is tens of thousands of people are paying (or using someone else’s money) to obtain degrees that are A) worthless (in terms of utility/economics) in the first place, or B) are unrelated to their vocation.

A college degree is very often a ticket to play, that is demanded by people removed from reality, who have bought into the “higher education” propaganda line.

Lastly, I even if this “you will make more money” line were true (and a statistic used to perpetuate a lie), we need to ask why? Is it true, because someone has successfully twisted societies arm to make it true, or because it is a real need. I am quite sure it is the former.

The article you linked and quoted:
http://www.businessinsider.com/90-dollar-oil-peak-oil-2010-11#

Misrepresents the AEO report here:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/forecasts/aeo/early_prices.cfm

The report says that average prices will not rise above $100 in 2009 USD until 2015, NOT that they will not ‘hit’ the nominal $100 mark in 2011. What this report is saying is very different than what you and the article portray it to be saying.

Thanks, I love your show!

The opportunity costs associated with pursuing a college degree vary. I happen to live in NJ. Rutgers University is among the best public schools in the country. One cannot major in “liberal arts” there. Current in-state tuition rate $9,950 per year if you live home. Figure a mid single digit increase over the course of 4 years and a student can graduate for about $45,000. If a student borrows half and pays half as he/she goes through some combination of work study, part time job and/or parents involvement that is $22,500. Current student loan rates average in the 6-8% range. Most loan programs allow, and in many cases mandate, that students pay the interest as they are in school so they don’t graduate with debt that has compounded past that which they borrowed.

According to the US Census Bureau, a college graduate will earn, ON AVERAGE, $51,206 per year. A high school graduate will earn, ON AVERAGE, $27,915. A person with an advanced degree will earn, ON AVERAGE, $74,602. A person without a HS degree will earn, ON AVERAGE, $18,734. Looks pretty irrefutable to me.

As I said, which all of you conveniently ignored, is that a prospective student needs to treat the purchase of a college degree with the same level of scrutiny that a savvy buyer would purchase anything. Work the system and pursue a field that has a high ceiling. I never said anything about majoring in “liberal arts.” In fact, I specifically said that those people should prepare themselves for a life of poverty.

Also, if anyone thinks that the next 50 years is going to do anything but further expand the gap between the numbers I posted above you, not me, are delusional. The fact is, there are only so many people that have the skill set, mental make-up and desire to pursue a living though entrepreneurial means. No doubt a lot of the folks that hang out on this board of are those mindsets. The other 349,990,000 people in the country don’t.

So, back to our student from Rutgers. That person, playing the averages, is indeed setting themselves up to earn exponentially more over the course of his career, for the modest investment of about $200 a month for 8 years. Assuming a normal earnings trajectory and some prepayments, it is quite reasonable to knock that down to 5 years. I know the feeling about debt on this board, but the fact remains, all of us take on debt for big purchases and investments–business debt, housing debt, hell, how many here have a car payment? Responsible debt is not slavery.

@metaforge I still say anyone with a knack for programming can be self taught. College can help, but it is something that can be learned informally. They will not know everything the formally trained programmer will know, but they will also know things the formally trained programmer won’t know. My son was told he needed a master’s to compete with the crowd from India. Not true because of his unique skill set.

Now his brother who is working on a doctorate in robotics. That would be very difficult to do without the university. Odds are good he’ll have that at age 25 or 26 and zero debt unless one of his internships convince him to stick around. After working the summer as a design engineer, the company he was working for made sure he really wanted to go to grad school for more than money, if it was just money they would have paid him much more. They even asked if he’d consider starting and running a division of their company near his grad school. His ability to solve problems and be creative serve him well.

I understand my kids have been blessed, I tell them that also. Some things which come easily to them don’t to others. They often enjoy mentoring other students. I also know there are many bright young people out there, not just mine, and that you go to college because there is something you want to learn.

Often a college degree tells an employer you are willing to stick it out and you’re teachable. Yet a skilled welder from a VoTech will often out learn out earn the liberal arts major.

I know a lady with $100,000 student loan, which she does not intend on paying back, working off and on as a care giver, often on government support.

College books are one of the big ripoffs. They make new editions most years. Bookmakers support the university, professors in some way, in return for changing a few words, problems, etc so the old books can’t be recycled. My sons learned they could save much by using older editions and copying problems from another students book when needed. If only more schools would got to ebooks at much reduced costs cutting out the publishing company.

You should go to college because they teach something you value that you want to learn while doing all you can to avoid student debt as much as possible.

Years back when I went to college, half my tuition paid by scholarship, other expenses paid by self. No student loan. I looked at it this way, I was paying my professors and after 1st year, I’d judge my teachers first day of class, do I want to learn from this person, is it of value to me. Fired several by dropping their classes and picking up someone elses, took every class by the ones I wanted to learn from along with classes that taught things I wanted to learn, which included rock climbing, creative writing and ceramics, photography, several business classes although I was sure I’d hate business and want nothing to do with it, but one of those special people teaching the class. I took a year off, worked at a factory, saved money, paid cash for a car, back to school. Treated myself to a summer school in the Tetons and Yellowstone. College credit earned in first aid, botany, survival class while backpacking, canoeing, horseback riding. I enjoyed college, taking what I wanted instead of sticking to a schedule. You go to college because you want to learn something, not because it is expected, nor is it the only way to learn. It was of value to me.

I’m also convinced that if you graphed years in college or even IQ against $ earned in a lifetime you’d find they have little bearing on each other. It is what you do with who you are.

@marauder

Enjoyed your last post. I wrote that same basic post today in notepad over my lunch break and forgot to put it up… I like my new post better anyway.. it’s more fun. But I second your opinions

Go to a solid public school and invest in a high ROI career… OR just go directly into the field and skip college… good points!!

4- Why would someone pay out of state tuition to go to another states state school?

Out of state tuition can be waived. Maybe because we live in the corner of the state, but Oklahoma (I think), Arkansas and Louisiana waive their out of state fees for local honor students. Much easier to get a full ride scholarship from Arkansas and Louisiana, than Texas. I agree on not paying the out of state fees, but is checking for scholarships, don’t rule out other states and private schools.

My dad has an engineering degree from Pitt. Air Force paid that one, which brings up another way to finance education.

@nick You brought up a good point. I always tell other parents when looking for scholarships to make sure they apply to their local community college, an in-state university with degree of choice, along with colleges on their dream list, neighboring state universities.

Marauder: Contrary to your claim, I specifically noted your point about which major to choose. However, while stating that you seem to keep defaulting back to the propaganda put forth by those who are advocating something very different.

Whether or not you advocate someone pursuing a “liberal arts” degree isn’t the point. The fact that people are being cajoled, bullied and intimidated into pursuing such degrees is due to the propaganda that you (and many others in our society) are repeating.

Another point which you seem to refuse to acknowledge is that your statistics are not speaking to the “why” behind any of this. So, the AVERAGE salary of a person with a college degree is higher. Why? Well, it is because it is used as an access ticket, often completely unrelated to the actual work someone does. You can’t even get an interview in certain places without a degree, regardless of whether your degree has any relevance on the job you are seeking. Sometimes it does, but MANY times it is simply an arbitrary filter.

In those cases, this false filter is causing people to spend money on “education” that has no actual utility, and results in “educators” draining money from individuals (and the public) for no reason.

If you refuse to consider this, then that’s your choice. In my view, you are helping to perpetuate an effective (if not literal) lie that is draining billions of dollars of private and public money to line the pockets of “educators.” In my view, if someone wants to blow their own money…well, that’s up to them, but Billions of dollars of Taxes are spend on “education” in this country with diminishing returns, all because of the success of propaganda which tells kids that they will be poor and worthless unless they go to college.

The ONLY reason this SEEMS to be true, is because people refuse to open their eyes and ask “why”?

I mean no offense, and I understand what you are trying to say, but in the process, I think you are inadvertently helping to keep the perpetuate the problem.

Another point in all of this discussion about College Degrees. I’m sure everyone is familiar with the concept of supply and demand. We are producing many people with a college degree of some sort–such that employers can be lazy and stupid and demand that people must have a college degree to even apply for a job–whether or not that degree has any relevance.

So this excess of supply is effectively CREATING a barrier to people that may be perfectly qualified for many jobs. The ASSUMPTION is that someone who pays a lot of money and burns 4 years on “education” is somehow superior to someone who has a high school education. There is nothing inherently true about this.

However, this line of propaganda is what is hammered into the brains of our kids constantly. If people think there is no cost and no damage being done to a society that is spending money (and worse yet, time) needlessly (in many, but not all cases) pursuing an empty degree with zero utility value because a bunch of “educators” have succeeded in fooling the world that it is “necessary” then it should come as no surprise that the world is in the state it is.

Lastly, I will again state my opposition to the idea that “education” is only obtained by paying a lot of people a lot of money until they provide you a piece of paper that says you’re now more valuable than you were before.

If anyone doubts how much they can learn OUTSIDE of a College setting, then I suggest they might not have been listening to things like TSP. I’ve learned a LOT of things from this show alone, and there are more opportunities than ever for someone to learn pretty much anything they want–all for free.

Education is not only great, but essential. However, it needs to be made clear that a bunch of college professors are not the guardians and distributors of education. We can pursue it everywhere.

@KAM – i can’t disagree with anything your saying. I think we are speaking the same language here.

To me homeschooling is the solution for the individual to solve just the problems your talking about.

I don’t really have answers for society as a whole, but in my own pond this is how I am dealing with it. Cheers!

-Nick

@KAM – I think you and other people on this thread might enjoy this podcast
http://stumblinghomestead.com/blog/2010/11/episode-11-the-argument-for-homeschooling/

This is a larger topic than the comments of this episode, but I’ll just toss out one more point… my wifes professor for her PHD homeschools his children and they have networked with other homeschooling families in the Pittsburgh area… a few times a week they have “classes”

To me this is the great mix of the 2 and something worth pursuing if you can network with other families in your area

My son, when he was in the Dallas area found many homeschool groups. They’d get together and teach various things. He taught a Ruby programming class on Saturdays to those who wanted to learn. Some parents also took the class. He refurbished a laptop to give away to whichever student had the greatest need and motivation.

I was looking for an education board on the forum and couldn’t find one. Would be a great place to share experiences.

Anyone have experience with volunteer work on a permaculture type farm or wwoofing? My thoughts is that it might be a good place for kids just out of high school who don’t know what they want to do, but want to get out and explore the world and possibilities.

Nick: Thanks for the links.
I think that a small network of other independent learning/home schooling is a good idea.

Marauder: I don’t think you are part of a cabal. I think you are merely echoing the propaganda of others because you see it fits reality to some degree. As I said–I seems you aren’t asking why. Why does a college degree lead to better pay (statistically)?

When you ask “Why?” I think you might find that the answer is that there is an artificial (not essential) barrier created here. You mentioned in your last post that having a college degree opened doors. You didn’t say, that your degree gave you the skill and ability. So, while I don’t think this was your intention, I think you hit the nail on the head. A college degree is about buying your way in as often (if not more) than gaining actual education/ability/skills.

The fact is a college degree is not an indicator of one’s abilities, but is treated as such by a bunch of lazy employers who don’t care that they are helping a bunch of “educators” drain individuals and the public of billions upon billions of dollars.

There are plenty of highly educated morons in this world (to be blunt), and people with “advanced degrees” that literally don’t have the first idea on how to function in the adult world.

I personally think that our society has its priorities very mixed up, and places value on things that have little or not value, because someone has successfully put it (a college degree) on a pedestal.

Again–I don’t want to make you out as some sort of enemy, but every time this subject comes up, I find someone like you who is eager to defend the orthodoxy of “higher education.” That’s fine, but I think its an assumption based on acceptance of someone’s propaganda, rather than based on any inherent reasons.

College isn’t for everyone. Sometimes it is a massive waste of time and effort, yet we’re told, and our children are threatened that if they don’t go to college they will be poor and stupid.

When I was in high school, I told my guidance counselor I wanted to take Drafting Classes. “That’s not a college prep course” I was told–“That’s a ‘shop class.'” (implying for the dumb kids who weren’t going to college). I was told I’d be better off taking French. Yes, French Class is certainly more valuable to an aspiring Engineer than Drafting. That’s the same sort of one-size fits all mentality that you seem to be reiterating in regards to the need for a college degree.

Jack…I’m not ignoring statistics for new grads. Statistically, a 2 year sample is irrelevant. We are in the midst of the greatest recession in 80+ years, so yes, new entrants into the workforce–whether they be degree holders or not–are being squeezed. They are squeezed because the older generation–again, whether degree holding or not–are not retiring or being promoted. That effect trickles down.

You are asking me to ignore 50+ years of statistical evidence in favor of 2 years of statical evidence.

You cite biology or engineering among the few degrees that make sense in the future. Really? Are we going to stop needing doctors, accountants, bankers, nurses, teachers, researchers, etc, anytime soon? Sometimes I read this board and think that some people want to jump in their way back machine and end up in Walnut Grove with Laura and Charles Ingalls in the late 1880s.

I don’t buy this idea that people that go to college are victims. And my view is hardly myopic. My entire professional career has been in an industry that is pretty much dominated by people without degrees. My father is a mechanic and learned his trade by doing. I have great respect for that.

Working for you some day?

Why does every argument you get involved with end up in such personal bickering and insults?

I’ve run and owned successful restaurants in the toughest market in the world. Sold 3 of them for a lot more than the $100k you’re so quick to let everybody know you were pulling down at 26.

I’ll let you know if I need a job.

Look, when someone is having a heated debate with someone else and says, “you’ll work for someone like me someday” that isn’t a complement on my block. But that is neither here nor there.

I never made a blanket claim, other than to reference the data. I never said college is for everyone, or that everyone should attend. What I did say, is that I don’t agree with the notion that less education is preferable to more.

I made it about money, because the discussion began as one about the economic viability of earning a college degree. I conceded early on that college isn’t for everyone, that certain things that people do attend college to study are pretty dumb (art, acting, sociology) and that one can succeed without a degree. However when one evaluates any opportunity, one has to look at the results of similar situations. And the data is absolutely irrefutable. A person who graduates college is apt to earn almost 2x as much as someone who doesn’t on an annual basis. We can get into all sorts of philosophical arguments about whether that is “right” or “fair” or “necessary” or anything else, but that doesn’t change it. And that data includes the last 20 years that you asked me to post. That data is up through 2009. And assuming the US economy recovers, who do you suppose if going to benefit the most? The person with the degree or the person without? You see, all those grads working at Wal Mart will eventually get jobs in their fields as the economy expands and the people who historically work at Wal Mart (those without degrees) will get their jobs back–AT WAL MART.

Sure, Bill Gates can drop out of Harvard and become the 2nd or 3rd richest man in the world. Incredibly brilliant guy who could have succeeded had he stayed or if he left. Same with these two Facebook kids. On the other hand, if you think the guys that run Google are hiring people who taught themselves programming in their basement, you aren’t paying attention-but I bet you know that already. CNBC has been running a special on Google. They interviewed a guy from the programming department. He was commenting on the brain power in the company. He said when he pursued his masters degree he had 11 textbooks. The authors of 9 of those books currently work for Google. I’m sure you’ll find similar sentiments in the finance, marketing, real estate, legal and accounting departments across all the other Fortune 500 companies.

I’m glad that your wife has had a fulfilling career as a nurse without a degree. In my state, there are certain things she would not be able to do–therefore not being able to reach the ultimate heights of her chosen career–without the degree. Again, we can argue whether that is “necessary” or not, but it is what it is.

I provided a perfectly reasonable example of how a person that WANTS to attend college can do so at a reasonable expense using leverage responsibly. It’s an investment and a tool. Not a golden ticket. It’s a key to the door, it’s not the house. Just like you would justify the purchase of a piece of capital equipment for your business with credit, one must evaluate the degree in the same manner.

As for researchers and scholars being “useless” who ya think is gonna write all those books you are gonna teach yourself everything from, the book fairy?

True, if you want to work for Google you need a degree, unless you could possibly by-pass their standard recruiting process. They aren’t very nimble in their hiring.

Doesn’t mean you can’t get on with a startup company, even universities will hire programmers without degrees (not talking about student interns) with the right skill set and pay them well.

Much to be said for an internship or any job experience with a start-up in the programming field. I’ve heard successful completion of such means more than a degree (except maybe to Google and a few other places).

Programming new stuff, new languages, is a fast moving field, esp. in hand held devices. Stuff not taught in universities (slow to change). Companies will hire whoever has the knowledge, even if it means going to great trouble to get a bright young high school student from Australia a VISA. You may find these self-taught programmers (some with degrees but not all) holding camps teaching others new stuff. Unlike doctors, they don’t have to have a degree, it can help, but not required with the right skill set.

Bottom line, go to college when it helps you learn things you want to know. I still remember one son being told by his summer job 2010 that if the only reason he was going to grad school was to make more money, not to go, they’d pay him well. He is going to grad school because he wants to learn more about robotics, do research, develop new things.

There is one other point regarding non-career related classes. These extraneous classes (to make us “well rounded”) can actually diminish our ability to learn the relevant subjects. A 16th Century Poetry Class counts just the same as an Engineering course, and therefore takes time away from learning relevant subjects.

That’s brilliant. This system will produce a “well rounded” person but a mediocre engineer. Great for cocktail parties with a bunch of stuffed shirts perhaps, but not great for building bridges.

The engineer takes English so he/she can learn to write, analyze the written word (as opposed to developing the other side of the brain that develops numerical analysis), etc.

What good is having an engineer that can build a bridge, but can’t write a coherent sentence to explain the project?

So now companies are in on this education conspiracy? So they would rather not higher people with degrees, but are doing so in order to help prop up the higher education system?

Marauder: There is no conspiracy–it’s simple laziness. If companies have broad brush filters (like a glut of college graduates) available, they will use them. They ARE using them, and have been for some time.

I have a hard time believing you don’t realize this. Are you telling me that you don’t know or have never heard of someone in a position that required a college degree that didn’t have any relation to the job?

A friend of mine was applying to be a manager at a retail store. She had YEARS of experience in retail, but without her associates degree in literature, she was not qualified.

Jack:
Yes, many college professors are products of the “if you can’t do, teach” school of life. I was pretty lucky. Most of my Engineering Professors worked in industry for some time, and they actually taught their classes instead of having a teaching assistant do it.

Text books…highway robbery. Some are good, some aren’t, but they are all overpriced.

In terms of foreign language. I was told in no uncertain terms that I would never be accepted into college without taking a foreign language in high school let alone graduate. I was happy to prove them wrong on both counts, but it begs the question–why was I told this lie (intentionally or due to ignorance)? I suspect it is related to keeping a French teacher in their job.

It might be laziness, it might not. I spent about 8 years in corporate finance with two Fortune 250 companies. In 8 years, I never came across a single person in either finance department that had a non-business degree. There were plenty of people that fulfilled clerk and staff level positions that didn’t have a degree. However, they were never going to advance past that most basic of levels.

A degree shows an employer that you have a basic understanding of your field, a discipline to study a variety of subjects and graduate and have a considerable investment in this industry–thereby justifying the subsequent investment they will make in training you.

After leaving finance, I went into the food industry. That is totally opposite type of environment. We often joke, “have knives, will travel.” When an industry has no barriers to entry, businesses are forced to expend a lot of extra time, resources and money to weed out people who are not committed to the job. That is my experience in the food business. Sure, I could get a career cook who can turn and burn with the best of them that never went to culinary school. Odds are, when the next best thing comes along–construction, or landscaping season or it’s more fun to be drunk 5 nights a week, they disappear. On the other hand, the person who graduated culinary school has shown a commitment to the craft by going to school. They have invested in themselves on a higher level. They understand the vocabulary. Can they cook? Of course not, but that is the easy part. College is the same thing.

Can I teach a person off the street how to be an accountant? Sure. But at what cost? When they have nothing invested in the process, what is to say that they don’t wake up tomorrow and want to be a hairdresser instead? Next thing you know, they are offering the salon down the street their services.

Marauder: No, a University requires things like Foreign Language, Theology and Sociology to make money and prop up professors in subjects that people otherwise wouldn’t bother with taking, specifically because they aren’t valuable to their chosen career path.

What I’m saying is that after 13 years of droning repetition, college SHOULD be specialized. They aren’t and universities get away with draining people like me (and the public with State supported schools) of thousands of dollars to keep an unproductive profession in a job. It’s a great welfare program.

Military Academies produce Leaders who are increasingly diplomats as well as war fighters. Perhaps for them a broader set of courses is appropriate.

I’m not sure what you think you are debating, but I never said it was a bad thing to be exposed to a wide variety of subjects. In fact, I think it is a good idea. I think it is a bad idea to pay for something that one can easily accomplish on their own. I don’t need a college professor to teach me theology, if that is my interest–I can buy a book on Theology, or look it up on the internet for free.

What I think is a bad idea is to rob people of their hard-earned dollars (or worse yet, of someone else’s hard earned tax dollars), and force people to study subjects unrelated to the career path they’ve chosen to pursue.

If people believe they must go to college in order to earn a good wage (according to the statistics you state), then they are being taken advantage of by university tacking on extraneous classes unrelated to their vocation, because they can.

If you think there isn’t any waste of time or money in Universities and colleges, great. Glad you were able to get such an awesome deal. In my experience, I know that isn’t the case (for me).

I’m not going to lose sleep at night having been ripped off (partially), because I knew it going in, but it doesn’t make it right, and people who defend and justify this insure that others will continue to be drained of their time and money.

College isn’t voluntary?

I’ve laid out a system that should make you happy. Go study whatever you like on a non-matriculated basis. Somehow I don’t think that solution would be enough for you.

I think this last post is the first time that you articulated your position this clearly. To me, that is very well thought out and makes more sense then “taking a foreign language in college is bullshit” which is how you ended a previous post (I’m paraphrasing I know).

I too think that college for most people could probably be trimmed down–say to 90 credit hours, instead of the 120 that most schools require. So, the average college degree seeking person should be able to finish in 3 years. However, I will still slightly disagree as it relates to a well rounded education. I don’t think the point of college is, or ever was, PURELY a place to procure a ticket to a “job” or a “career.” It may have turned into that and that is a problem, in my view. Within that context I have no problem with the engineer taking 5 or 6 classes in things like literature, sociology, etc. I think a person who is exposed to more things is just flat more intelligent than one who is exposed to less. Same holds true with a foreign language. Now, I don’t think that same engineer needs to spend 2 years taking courses like that. But a handful is not going to kill anyone.

I tread lightly on “pushed into it.” Who is pushed into it? As I’ve said a few times, I live in Northern New Jersey in one of the 5 most affluent counties in the country (Bergen County). Our area High Schools probably have a 92-95% rate of students going on to college. By and large, they will comprise your top 40%.

On the other hand, I am still within 20 minute car ride of Newark, Jersey City, Paterson and Elizabeth, New Jersey, which probably have a 20-30% rate of kids that go to 2 year schools and maybe 10% that go to 4 year schools. I don’t think college is being “pushed” on them at all. They are kids that will have a life long battle to break the cycle of government handouts and abject poverty.

As you would imagine, we would pass through a bunch of transitional and blue collar towns on ride from my area to the “city.” Those are probably your bottom 40% kids. These are towns that probably send 45-60% of their kids to 4 year colleges, 15-20% to community colleges and the rest to tech school or the workforce. Are these kids being “pushed” into college or being sold a bill of goods? Maybe. would they be better served learning how to weld or repair an Audi or run a cat scan machine? probably. But if a kid exhibits a desire to go to college, even if their possibility for success looks borderline at the time, how much should the system push back on them to consider something else? It’s an interesting discussion. I’m not sure how I come down on it…

Normally I would agree with out. Hell, I came from one of those blue collar transitional towns I talked about. However, where we are now is really the cream of the crop from a public school system standpoint. Kids actually like to excel. Sure, some will get pressure that college is “expected,” but by and large these are self motivated kids that see a value in college.

There are idiots everywhere, no doubt about that. I went to what would be considered a pretty top tier university. Plenty of idiots. They weren’t dumb though. Difference between a little stupid and flat out dumb. If you get my drift.

Lastly, if you haven’t already done so, check out Friedrich Hayek’s “The Road to Serdom.” Bedrock, foundational work in Austrian econ. Can get it on Amazon for a song these days.

Great discussion. I enjoyed it thoroughly once we got past the petty bickering that seems to precede any discussion on Al Gore’s Interwebs. lol

Marauder:
In regards on who is “pushed into it.” Well, that would be everyone who buys into the PR behind the statistic that you have repeated here several times–that essentially being “Go to college, earn more money.”

I think Jack mentioned it several times, but I’ve observed that college is pushed all throughout our society. Kids are told “get good grades so you can go to college” as if that is an end in itself. The radio played ads declaring the statistics you mention about earning more with a college degree.

There is a dedicated effort in our society (from a variety of sources) to “push” as many people as possible into college, which costs a lot of money, and which is NOT right for everyone. Yet, when they are told “you’ll earn less money if you don’t go to college” that’s what they focus on. Do you really think that radio ads zeroing in on that are just happenstance? No–it is because that’s the message that accomplishes the goal of the advertiser.

Let’s jump forward to today, where people accept the message of this PR. What does that lead to? Well, it leads to certain high-profile politicians saying that “everyone who wants to go to college should be able to” (at the taxpayer’s expense of course). The UK has riots over the prospect of tuition increases–because they have a “right” to their education (“right” meaning someone else should pay for it). The point is, this PR campaign that seeks to scare people into going to college has detrimental effects.

On the question of extraneous “enriching” subjects for certain degrees, I have some additional comments.

Generally, I am against forcing students pursuing already challenging degrees to take unrelated subjects in some attempt to make them “well rounded.” First–a person isn’t “well rounded” and never will be unless they choose to be. Being forced to take a class they don’t want (and resent) is likely to have the opposite effect. Second, a person need not take a college class to become well rounded. So, the entire “well rounded” argument doesn’t hold water in my view (even if some people do enjoy those other classes). Heck, I enjoyed the History classes I took, because I love history, but it still doesn’t mean it makes sense to be part of an Engineering program.

Jack mentioned this being a problem in relation to value. If I didn’t have to take those extraneous courses in order to get an Engineering degree, I could have saved money and time, and had an additional year of earning. OR, I could have taken more engineering classes and had more opportunities to broaden my knowledge base. Both of these are preferable in my view to an attempt to social engineer “well rounded” people.

Lastly, I’d like to speak to the point of college from the standpoint of being a consumer who pays for a service. UNLIKE many other free market interactions, the buyer is limited by the system. This is proper, because an engineering degree must be about engineering, and standards must be met. However, those standards have limits. As I stated earlier, one would have a hard time justifying flower arranging as being vital to an engineering program. But reality is somewhere in-between, where engineering students (for example) are required to take classes in unrelated subjects.

Now imagine, if you as a customer want to buy a car. You choose what make and model you want, and get your financing together and head out to the dealership. What would your reaction be if they said “we would love to sell you this car–all you’ve got to do is buy this boat as well.” I’m pretty sure the customer’s reaction would be to either laugh, or tell them to go jump. Yet, this is exactly what happens when someone seeks a degree (like in engineering), but is forced to take Theology for example. Yet, somehow this is justified as being proper, and even beneficial. Well, having a boat could be beneficial too–you’d have more well rounded transportation options available to you.

So, in my view, this is every bit as important as whether or not one should attend college at all. Bottom line–a student can’t demand they be given a degree for something they don’t meet the qualifications for (like engineering), but shouldn’t be made to meet other requirements unrelated to what they are seeking (like theology).

But hey, it might not be so bad. I’d know next to nothing about the Ainu people or their religion if not for that Theology class. Ah, I still feel well-rounded because of that. 🙂