Episode-380- Rifles, Shotguns and Handguns for Modern Survival — 21 Comments

  1. Jack good show good info.I have a NEF 410 ive been thinking about sending it in and having a 45LC barrel fit to it.Have you heard or used shotshell adapters to where you can use 410 shells in a 12 gauge etc thinking about one of those i have a double barrel in a shtf case where 12 gauge may be hard to get why not have a second choice without extra weight.Elmer Kieth i remember a story about him shooting black bears with a 357 loaded with a hard cast type of bullet and dropping it with one shot.

  2. One other thought about concealed carry: If a husband and wife want to be able to carry with the same caliber, then if desiring to stockpile ammo, the overlap would cut down on ammo needs. This was why I chose 9mm, along with the option of 33 round Glock magazines. 🙂

    But even revolver people could do \"the opposite but the same\" with 357s since the same guns could use 38 Sp. +P.

    Not that I\’m speaking from experience. I\’m taking my CCW class this Saturday.

    See you tonight at the Ag Trading Post.

  3. I think a good choice for a revolver would be a Taurus 905 its on the frame of
    the mod 85 but its chambered in 9mm and you can also use 9×18 and 380 because of the moonclips.

  4. Jack,

    Episode .380 on guns. How appropriate

    Awesome topic. There is NO perfect gun, platfoem or caliber.

  5. Hi Jack I am new to guns but I have always wanted guns strictly for defense.I do not yet own guns but I have decided that I want a shotgun and a rifle/carbine as my first two guns. For a shotgun I decided to go with a Remington 870 pump but for a rifle I have not decided but for defensive purposes I can’t decide on choosing an intermediate cartridge like a .223 or a battle rifle cartridge like a .308 or a .30-06. I know you said on your show that people who want a battle rifle are living in a “fantasy world” but I want a rifle for not home defense but strictly for property defense because I live in California and am concerned about people rioting because of our bankrupt state. Which rifle cartridge do you think I should go with based on my situation?

  6. Excellent show today Jack. Right on target. As a gun shop owner I hear it all the time. People come in and say so and so said I need a what ever. I always try to explain to them they need a gun to fit their situation, life style and ability. Just because it is the right gun for your friend does not mean it is right for you. Would you buy shoes 2 sizes too small just because you like the brand? I also get a kick out of the guy that says I\’m here to buy a gun for my wife. My response is always buy the gun you want because if you buy her a gun it will be the wrong gun. Bring her in let her handle them all and ask her questions because she needs the gun that is right for her, not the gun that you think is right for her.
    On guns and freedom. I have this conversation almost every day. People say I won\’t buy a gun from a dealer because I don\’t want to be on the \"list\". You were added to a government list the day you were born and probably get added to a new list every day so crawl out from under that rock you are trying to hide under. If you are a gun owner and there really is a list of gun owners you should demand to be added to it and be proud to be on it because if every gun owner in the United States was on that list it would scare the hell out of the gun grabbers. Hey Jack, The List might be a good topic for a podcast.

  7. I own three shotguns – a Mossberg 590 pump, a Benelli M1 Super 90 with a 26″ barrel, and a Saiga 12 gauge. The Saiga 12 is in an assault configuration with an Eotech 512 reddot sight, a door breeching brake, an M4 style stock, a single point sling, and a bunch of 10, 12, and 20 round magazines.

    The Mossberg 590 was my “home defense” shotgun for almost 15 years until I bought the Saiga. The Mossberg was relatively affordable (~$350) with a 9 round capacity. The sound of the pump action itself can be intimidating and can help defuse a situation without having to use force.

    About 16 years ago, a friend and I both bought Bennelli M1 Super 90 shotguns. Mine was a configuration with a 26″ barrel and a 4 round capacity. His had a shorter ~18″ barrel with a 9 round capacity (the “assault” version). I have used both guns. Mine is a perfect skeet and bird hunting gun but the barrel is a little too long for home defense use. I really love it for hunting and skeet.

    I like the semi auto Benelli action for defense use. His Benelli (and the newer ones) are good home defense guns. However, I like the Saiga 12 better for defense applications than the Benelli because the Saiga magazine design is much more effective for reloading — reloading is comparable to reloading an AK-47 or an AR-15.

    The muscle memory for reloading and handling the Saiga 12 is very similar to that for my AR-15. The 20 round drum and 12 round magazines allow one to put a lot of lead on target. Price wise, a fully loaded Saiga 12 is going to be as expensive as the Benelli assault shotguns.

    For close quarters urban combat, particularly clearing buildings, you cannot beat the Saiga 12. Haji really hates shotguns — just as the Germans in WW1 and WW2 really hated the 12 gauge pump shotguns used at the time. However, for anything beyond 50 yards, a carbine (AR-15 or AK-47) is a better choice while a battle rifle (M1A, M1 Garand, HK, FAL) is better for 200-500+ yard ranges.


  8. Very good program. Thanks to Jack and all this information, I’ve found the motivation to jump- start the process of getting my licenses. I have also contacted an instructor – an olympic athlete, and contacted a friend of the family as mentor for going hunting with shotguns. Will not purchase my first shotgun until my instructor gives me the green light. Hopefully, I’ll be able to buy used. Other firearms will have to wait until, I’ve become comfortable with the shotgun.

  9. “but I want a rifle for not home defense but strictly for property defense because I live in California and am concerned about people rioting because of our bankrupt state.”

    Food for thought, Just how do you expect things to unfold during a riot and what level of force is acceptable? I think if you shoot a rioter 100+ meters away from your property with a high powered rifle (you are liable for wherever that bullet goes, FYI), Johnny Law will view it differently than peppering a looter with bird shot once the goblin steps onto your property line with a weapon to harm you or attempts to smash/destroy your property with rocks, blunt instruments or a molotov cocktail.

  10. @Chuck,

    True UNLESS they are actively looting your neighbors home by force and you are acting in his defense. At least in Texas you don’t have to be defending yourself, you can be defending the life and property of others.

    Just ask Joe Horn,

    Note the final words of the first paragraph,

    “On June 30, 2008, Joe Horn was cleared by a grand jury in the Pasadena shootings.”

    That set a very strong president for our state.

  11. Jack,

    I followed the Pasadena shootings closely and was very happy with the out come even when he said on the 911 tape that he was going to kill him (If I recall correctly). Jimbo really did not give us enough info. I person 100+ meters away is not a riot. I had visions of him shooting into a crowd with a high powered rifle.

  12. I said, “food for thought” because this needed discussion & good points for & against were mentioned!

  13. Hi Jack,

    I just got around to listening to this excellent podcast. You mentioned 22LR ammo being a penny a round. Can you tell us where you get it for a penny a round?

  14. @Jon,

    I think I said or at least meant to say “pennies a round”. I just bought a few bricks of 22s from Academy, Remington Thunderbolts. I paid 15 bucks a brick and a brick is 500 rounds. That is about 3 pennies a round.

    They also have some variety of Winchester there in a milk carton looking thing 525 round for 14 bucks. I prefer the 50 to a box sub packing though for a variety of reasons.

  15. OK, thanks Jack, just wanted to make sure you weren’t hoarding 1 cent 22LR ammo. Keep up the great work! I really like the gun topics – lots of common sense tips. Also, I like it when the wife tells me after listening that she needs a shotgun and a centerfire rifle. Two is one, one is none!

  16. Great episode.

    During the show, you mentioned that it makes no sense to buy a pistol in states where concealed carry isn’t legal. Based on your notion that the only purpose for a pistol is to carry concealed, this makes sense. I’m wondering, though, whether there isn’t a value in purchasing a pistol even though concealed carry may not be legal in your area *at this particular time.* I mention this for a couple of reasons. First, laws are always subject to change. In the case of gun laws, they can go either way–either more or less restrictive. DC is a great example of this. Before the recent Supreme Court ruling, only individuals who had purchased their pistols prior to 1976 were able to keep them, and no new pistols were registered after 1976. So, it would have been advantageous to have purchased prior to 1976 and effectively be grandfathered in.

    I realize that this has little bearing on the concealed carry issue, particularly if we anticipate that the laws will get more restrictive, as they did in DC in 1976. But, I think there’s another reason why we shouldn’t dismiss pistol ownership out of hand in areas where CCW permits are not available. Although we can speculate that individuals favoring gun rights will always stump for the removal of restrictive gun laws and the expansion of CCW permits, I think if individuals in a CCW-free area own pistols, they will have a greater stake in the passage (or removal) of CCW laws.

    All of that said, you also note in the show that individuals always have the option to carry concealed even if it may not be legal. Obviously you’re wise not to suggest publicly that individuals illegally carry, but I think it’s worth noting that by not owning a pistol, individuals no longer have this option. If owning a pistol does not preclude me from owning a sufficient stock of long guns (e.g., financially), I think it’s prudent to be “prepared” in this sense.

  17. Great point about each of us having different needs, so each of us needs a different gun.

    Your point about arthritis is great. I have never heard someone say that (but I’ve thought it). So many internet forums have this “.308 or nothing, you wuss” attitude that turns off people so they don’t build up a batter of weapons that fit their needs. An arthritic person with a .22LR is better than an arthritic person with no gun because some arm-chair wannabe said “a .45 is the only thing that will stop someone.”

    Same thing about buying a gun you can afford. I’m guessing the majority of TSP Forum members are working to reduce debt and watch their spending because they have many areas to prep in (food, water, etc.). If they hear that only a $1200 AR will do the job, they won’t get any gun at all. But that $200 Rossi .38 at a pawn shop will get them started in being able to defend their home.

    (I’m a little late getting to this episode. Hey, man, work gets in the way.)

  18. Hi Jack,

    Here in Michigan, we have a shotgun zone for deer hunting in the lower Lower Peninsula. In this zone, we cannot use rifles to hunt deer, ever, but we may use handgun. This season is the standard firearm season, and as such, makes handgun hunting a very attractive option to buck or slug shotgun hunting.


  19. On my comment about using 9×18 ammo with moonclips i just found out that it will not work the 9mm luger and the 380 are a .356 diameter and the 9×18 is a .364 wont work.

  20. A little something to consider.

    A shotgun is a good basic weapon. They are fairly tough pieces and will work more or less in any conditions. It’ll make just about anyone within range of it, have second thoughts about being hit by it. The 12 ga. and 20 ga. are sure bets for hunting, and in some close proximity self defense circumstances. The down side about them is that they are noisy. The positive is they are easily affordable, and the ammo is cheap.
    The ammo is also plentiful, and military/law enforcement uses it as well.
    12/20 ga. shells will be a good bartering items too.
    A 12 ga. will open most locked doors without much effort.

    Chose weapons solely on the calibers and what is used by the military and law enforcement.
    They use both .223 and .308 weapons. I figure, if the Kimshi gets deep enough, and the flying poo in the air is really nasty…then any fallen troop and his gear/ammo would be a ready made resupply for you.
    That is a really awful way to look at it, I know, but it is realistic. (The trick would be not to get caught gleaning from a fallen trooper…that would surely be reason enough for them to summarily put a lead pill in your brain right then and there if they did. Then they would strip you of all your usable equipment. It’s a trade off! Finding dead armed services personnel laying around, would mean that the whole thing has gone to hell and all is lost…remember that!)

    In battle, both sides will use the others stuff if they can. Why shouldn’t civilians? If the USA falls into chaos, and internal warfare is taking place, there will be nearly no safe zones.( except for prison camps )
    I plan on hiding out. I am not Rambo, and won’t pretend I am. But, I also refuse to be taken advantage of either. Being a civilian, I understand that I already have the disadvantage. I don’t have the equipment or material support that the mechanized armed forces have. Therefore, I am not stupid enough to think that I can take it on and win.

    You hunker down as long as you can, then you go light and mobile, moving often while staying out of sight.

    I will blend in with the surroundings and be a chameleon as best as I can. I do not plan on drawing fire to myself. So I will hide in my encampment hole, and peek out now and then to see if I can get some fresh air. If not, down I go, and will wait it out some more.

    You must NEVER take out a US soldier or law officer for any reason, unless he is lawlessly rouge, out of control, and an imminent threat to your life. Even then, that’s iffy! They usually have friends, who’ll want revenge!
    Don’t look upon them as enemies. Most will be on your side, if your just trying to survive on the low key side. Like I wrote, lay low and stay out of sight until the time dictates you can’t. Then scoot, scoot fast, scoot low, and avoid trouble.
    You’ll live longer.

    Also consider choosing the two most common Russian rounds and weapons available on the market now…again, nearly all foreign troops carry a version of the AK-47. Therefore, if you found a dead foreigner on the ground with his AK laying there, then it is free ammo and gun parts for you. The Russian weapons are ubiquitous.

    I am NOT looking forward to any warfare in this nation, but if it comes to that, then you need to look at the bigger picture. What can you use and from whom?
    My weapon for hunting small game, and taking out an ugly citizen who will not desist is a 22 caliber, long round hollow point to the head. It’ll stop them, and the report isn’t heard a five miles away. The rifle is light, and so is the ammo. The ammo is also cheap. I do not have the money to buy high end weaponry. So,I have to arm myself on the cheap. The 22 rifle it is!

    The .308 would blow Nastyman’s head clean off, but would announce to every other nasty so and so, where you are.
    The .308 is an all out, give `em hell in a hurry, gun `em all down now, weapon. It is the last resort civilian weapon. The ammo is heavy. It is also expensive. The .308 Military rifle is expensive.
    The .223 is the do it all weapon. The ammo is better to carry, and more affordable, but not exactly cheap. The supply is ebb and flow mostly. Sometimes the gun shops have it, and then they don’t. Better to buy it from from a bulk ammo supplier, if you can afford it. The .223 Military rifle is a little cheaper than the 308. If you start putting options on them, the costs go up fast.

    The AK-47 is a good inner city weapon. The ammo compares to the .223 for weight and volume for carrying it around. The ammo is on par with .223 affordability. The biggest supplier of it is Wolf Ammo. The stuff stinks to high heaven when fired. It is also very corrosive. Keep your AK clean.
    AK-47’s used to be cheap,but are now gaining in cost. They are also getting harder to find since B.O. took office.

    Any 45 cal side arms are “get out of my face” weapons. A 45 cal makes a nasty hole, especially the hollow point. Once hit, it is doubtful the ugly mug will ever get up again. 9mm’s are not powerful enough. You want to blow the BadGuy to hell…not piss him off!

    .45 cal semi autos are not cheap. But they are awesome weapons. The ammo is affordable, and plentiful. The military is going back to it as well. Because they do the job well.
    Nothing wrong with a 45 cal revolver either.

    Once full forced POO is hitting the fan, nothing is for certain, and all bets will be off. Expect nothing less than brutal Martial Law, and curfews. Rationing will be strictly imposed, and hoarders/looters will be severely punished.
    No one will be allowed to tote around multiple firearms, except for the law/military enforcers and check point officials. Conceal and Carry permits will be null and voided. They all will be looking for anyone carrying a gun for any reason.
    They will search your body, your vehicle, and home if necessary.

    This is why it is crucial to set up and supply your bunker/homestead/pantry now, and then lay low and stay out of sight later. Those who refused to prep, or didn’t believe it could happen, will be caught bare-assed and without basics later. They will be the one’s screaming for a hand out, and will plot your immediate demise, if they know your guarding a years supply of food, and the niceties that make hunkering down tolerable. ( it would behoove you to keep your prep plans to yourself, and not tell everyone. Make sure you tell your kids, to “shut up” about it too! No boyfriends or girlfriends can come and stay with you. Once POO flies, it is family only! )

    The biggest threat to us all once SHTF, will be gangs of teenagers who are on their own. These will be Dead-end kids with nothing to lose. They may even be loosely employed by Mercenaries, who’ll feed them, and give them a place to crash, if they bring back the goods! These kids will be cold blooded killers, and will gut you for whatever you possess.( the lost generation of Africa is doing this now. Kids as young as 8 and 9 are stone cold killers. ) It can happen here too. Think about it! Plan accordingly. Your going to need firearms, and won’t survive long without any.