Episode-1644- A Painful Economic and Social Evolution and What to do During It — 37 Comments

  1. What Jake said. Cannot wait to download & listen. I’ve been sold on Anarchy for a little while now & would love to hear more ideas about what we can do to stay, as Toby Hemenway put it, “legal… but illegible”

  2. The shit has already hit the fan in America, just not for everybody.

    Look at Detroit.

    Look at downtown Denver in the shadow of I25 and I70, what was once an upscale neighborhood is now trash.

    Look at the mass of chronically unemployed, and “those not in workforce.”

    Look at the mass of people living a transient-esque lifestyle, not really homeless but far far far from the “American Dream” with an actual house to stay in for more than two months and a stable job. (What, you didn’t know about that? Oh yeah, it’s a pretty big thing.)

    I think what’s coming is a return to more rural and home-y roots, along with this movement in the cities of younger people finding interesting work-arounds to the bullshit of “you MUST live in a 2,000 sq ft house in the suburbs OR an approved of overpriced apartment!” like tiny houses, converting the loft of a garage to a little (totally illegal) apartment, things like that. Entrepreneurship will make a comeback. And all this will be interspersed with wailing and gnashing of teeth (and violent massive riots) as people adjust to the new reality where you don’t get everything handed to you and the government isn’t there to take care of everybody.

    I don’t think the shit will hit the fan in one big boom (at least not due to soleley economic causes), but this country will look wayyy different by the time I’m Jack’s age. Specialization will decrease as people are forced to become slightly more self reliant with the change in the employment paradigm. Living arrangements will be interesting and probably involve group living and a bunch of rooftop and backyard gardens.

    I’m personally working towards the rural lifestyle, because as cool as going off grid in the city with a rooftop garden sounds, I don’t want to be there when things like giant riots and the responding crackdowns happen.

    Also, I have a question. How the hell do people go along with the government trying to take like 1/3 of what they earn? Would you work 60 hours to only get paid for 40 hours? 15% for JUST Social Security, this is freaking insane…

  3. Dear Jack,
    I’ve been following your podcasts for some time but today’s (No. 1644 “A Painful and Economic and Social Evolution…”) presentation was so outstanding in many ways that I have signed up for a year’s membership. As a retired NASA research scientist I can appreciate a systems’ approach to planning and execution of major projects and your overview, apart from some points I don’t agree with, was on-target and – as we used to say in the old NASA days – AOK. Keep up the great work for good of people living everywhere.

  4. Jack, you really ought to come up with a list of 20 or so episodes you’ve done and let people vote on a Top 10. I’m pretty sure this one would make that list. I don’t necessarily 100% agree with your solutions, but you argue them well and your presentation of the problems is spot-on.

  5. Jack,
    Welcome to the “Gospel According to Grover”.
    “The Only Ligitimate Justification for the use of Force is the Protection and Preservation of Life, Liberty and Justly Aquired Property”.

    The first Law of the
    “Gospel According to Grover”.
    “The Use of Force or Fraud, “In ANY of It’s Forms”, to Achieve Social, Political, Economic, Cultural, Religous, Personal or any OTHER Reason “Should Be A Capitol Offense”.


    Voluntary Association + Mutual Cooperation + 110% Personal Responsility = 100% Individual Liberty.

    Respectfully Yours,

  6. “The way to win the game is to understand the rules better than your opponent”

    Big old 10,000 lumen light bulb just went off in my head

    I’ve heard this before but the narrative leading up to is was the delivery mechanism I needed

  7. Thanks for the excellent and insightful episode, Jack. However, your assessment of the current CDC vaccine schedule remains incorrect.

    You transition from a criticism of our school system’s LACK of change in the last few hundred years (min 30), to a criticism of the EVOLVING CDC vaccine schedule. Which is it? Do you advocate change for the better, or not?

    At minute 33, you state that “vaccines probably cause some health risks.” I know you understand that the benefits outweigh any (unsubstantiated) risks, so please stop talking about the potential risks–as they just unnecessarily scare people away from making the smart decision to vaccinate following the CDC schedule. I think you are misunderstanding how the pharmaceutical industry is made to disclose side effects. During a medical study, subjects who have any negative health issues are labeled as having side effects. These are not necessarily caused by the treatment. Vaccine trials involve many subjects, and some will inevitably have unrelated health issues, which are not necessarily risks.

    Next, you state vaccinations “are certainly done beyond what is necessary to make vaccinations effective.” Then, you make a comparison between the 1980s vaccine schedule and today’s schedule. You argue that the 80s course was successful, and there “was no need to increase the rate and numbers, other than to sell more vaccinations and make more money for a system that is designed to profit from scarcity and fear…”

    Of course, we all understand that pharmaceutical companies want to make money. However, the vaccines added to the schedule since 1980 are for Hepatitis and Influenza and other newly developed vaccines. Medicine has progressed, and this means we have new vaccines. Medical science developed vaccines for the worst diseases first (polio, tetanus), and now we are working on the less devastating (or more difficult to create) vaccines. I worked in this field for 15 years (Hep B/C, HIV).

    Jack has many areas of deep knowledge; however medicine is not one of them. Vaccine scare-mongering is popular now, but history will not be kind to those who advocate against the CDC childhood vaccination schedule. Please see the history of anti-vaccination, starting with the notorious and discredited Andrew Wakefield (

    • You come at this with religious faith so I won’t bother debating it with you. Believe as you wish. Keep poisoning and over vaccinating children. The is NO FUCKING need for the sheer number of vaccines given today, no logical case can be made for it. Bother someone else.

  8. And it is not the individual illnesses vaccinated for it is how many fucking times said vaccinations are given, especially at ONE TIME and over and over and over and over again to children at such young ages. Future generations will call us what we are for doing this, heartless fucks in quest of dollars.

    When I saw how many shots a child was given in the first two years I realized what monsters we had become.

    • Religious belief is held without proof. It is true that I ‘believe’ the CDC vaccination schedule, but it is not without proof.
      Vaccines are the among the safest and most common-sense prevention-based therapies available in medicine. They are the primary reason almost everyone in first world countries survives childhood.
      It is you that are holding on to the 1980s vaccination schedule with religious faith. Would you reduce the DTaP or HiB vaccinations to 1 shot, instead of 3-5? If so, I am guessing that your decision is based on emotion instead of proof.
      I am giving reasonable arguments, but you are just embarrassing yourself by dropping a bunch of F bombs and insulting me. Instead of wasting your time in emotional arguments, look up what vaccines contain, and how they work. They are not plausibly dangerous.

      • No what you are doing is parroting party line bullshit, like I said based on faith. I have made many reasonable and LOGICAL arguments full of fact and backed by MEDICAL DOCTORS in the past, fucking with you at this point is not worth my time.

        • What ever man, this guy and I have history. This was all discussed before and when it was I laid out FACT after FACT after FACT and all of it was supported by MDs who agreed with what I said. This guy knows this, I am simply not going to redo the entire thing. This is his pet religious belief and he lives to do this shit when ever I say anything no matter how moderate about not just shoving 8 ROUNDS of vaccines into babies before they are TWO YEARS OLD. This is insane, it absolutely is not necessary and anyone that believes it is tends to be beyond hope.

          Again EIGHT rounds.

        • @Jack (or anyone else) would like to read up on the comments/discussion you mentioned you’ve already had with this individual. I was surprised at first reading through this comment string at what seemed to be a quick temper on your part, but when you mentioned that you’ve already had this discussion with this person it really resonated with me — would love to read the full discussion, if you can provide a link or just an episode number I can look up. Thank you.

        • My best advice is search the site for vaccine and start digging. It was at least twice that I laid out my case but I don’t remember the show or have time to dig up bodies. I have a few stalker asshats, this guy, another I call the coward who hides his identity that does the same shit with global warming, and a few other less annoying ones.

          Many times I just delete there shit but once in a while enough is fricken enough.

        • Let me add I am sure I will lay out the case again on the air and when I do, ass hat will show up yet again. The basic case is if you don’t shove 8 vaccines into a child at one time, and there is a reaction you know WHAT the reaction is to. Not to mention if there is a reaction it will likely be LESS severe if only one or two are given per round. Further that the shear number in the first two years is absolutely unreasonable.

          Ass Hat here claims that any concerns about reactions are UNFOUNDED. Well the people that make the vaccines SAY THE OPPOSITE, you can read them all here,

          Next time someone says there are no risks to a vaccine, print a copy of the warning label of the one in question for them and ask them to read it.

          People who deny such risks are religious in their trust of medicine. It is an accurate word because here you have the manufacturer say something like, this, taken word for word from Merks warning label on its own vaccine. But remember there are no risks at all right?

          The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella: Body as a Whole Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability.

          Cardiovascular System
          Digestive System

          Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vo
          miting; parotitis; nausea.

          Endocrine System
          Diabetes mellitus.
          Hemic and Lymphatic System
          Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS,
          ); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy;

          Immune System
          Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been r
          eported as well as related phenomena such as
          angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edem
          a) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or
          without an allergic history.

          Musculoskeletal System
          Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia.
          Arthralgia and/or arthritis (usually transient and
          rarely chronic), and polyneuritis are features of
          infection with wild-type rubella and vary in fr
          equency and severity with age and sex, being greatest in
          adult females and least in prepubertal children. This
          type of involvement as well as myalgia and
          paresthesia, have also been reported
          following administration of MERUVAX

          Chronic arthritis has been associated with wild
          -type rubella infection and has been related to
          persistent virus and/or viral antigen isolated from
          body tissues. Only rarely
          have vaccine recipients
          developed chronic joint symptoms.
          Following vaccination in children, reactions in join
          ts are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In
          women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children
          (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),
          {17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer
          duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of mont
          hs or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent
          girls, the reactions appear to be intermediate in
          incidence between those seen in children and in adult
          women. Even in women older than
          35 years, these reactions are gener
          ally well tolerated and rarely
          interfere with normal activities.

          Nervous System
          Encephalitis; encephalopathy; measles incl
          usion body encephalitis (MIBE) (see
          CONTRAINDICATIONS); subacute
          sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE); Gu
          illain-Barré Syndrome (GBS);
          acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM); transve
          rse myelitis; febrile convulsions; afebrile
          convulsions or seizures; ataxia; polyneuritis
          ; polyneuropathy; ocular palsies; paresthesia.
          Experience from more than 80 million doses of all
          live measles vaccines given in the U.S. through
          1975 indicates that significant central nervous
          system reactions such as encephalitis and
          encephalopathy, occurring within 30 days after vacci
          nation, have been temporally associated with
          measles vaccine very rarely.{58} In no case has it
          been shown that reactions were actually caused by
          vaccine. The Centers for Disease Control and Preventi
          on has pointed out that “a
          certain number of cases
          of encephalitis may be expected to occur in a lar
          ge childhood population in a defined period of time even
          when no vaccines are administered”. However, the data
          suggest the possibility that some of these cases
          may have been caused by measles vaccines. The risk of
          such serious neurological disorders following
          live measles virus vaccine administration remains
          far less than that for encephalitis and encephalopathy
          with wild-type measles (one per two thousand reported cases).
          Post-marketing surveillance of the more
          than 200 million doses of M-M-R and M-M-R
          that have
          been distributed worldwide over 25 years (1971 to 1996)
          indicates that serious
          adverse events such as
          encephalitis and encephalopathy continue
          to be rarely reported.{17}
          There have been reports of subacute sclerosing panenc
          ephalitis (SSPE) in children who did not have
          a history of infection with wild-type measles but di
          d receive measles vaccine. Some of these cases may
          have resulted from unrecognized measles in the first year
          of life or possibly from
          the measles vaccination.
          Based on estimated nationwide measles vaccine distri
          bution, the association of SSPE cases to measles
          vaccination is about one case per million vaccine doses di
          stributed. This is far
          less than the association
          with infection with wild-type measles, 6-22 cases of
          SSPE per million cases of measles. The results of a
          retrospective case-controlled study conducted by
          the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
          suggest that the overall effect of measles va
          ccine has been to protect against SSPE by preventing
          measles with its inherent higher risk of SSPE.{59}
          Cases of aseptic meningitis have been reported to
          VAERS following measles, mumps, and rubella
          vaccination. Although a causal relationship betw
          een the Urabe strain of mumps vaccine and aseptic
          meningitis has been shown, there is no evidence
          to link Jeryl Lynn™ mumps vaccine to aseptic

          Respiratory System
          Pneumonia; pneumonitis (see CO
          NTRAINDICATIONS); sore throat; cough; rhinitis.

          Stevens-Johnson syndrome; erythema
          multiforme; urticaria; rash;
          measles-like rash; pruritis.
          Local reactions including burning/stinging at inje
          ction site; wheal and flare; redness (erythema);
          swelling; induration; tenderness;
          vesiculation at injection site.
          Special Senses — Ear
          Nerve deafness; otitis media.
          Special Senses — Eye
          Retinitis; optic neuritis; papillitis;
          retrobulbar neuritis; conjunctivitis.
          Urogenital System
          Epididymitis; orchitis.

          Death from various, and in some cases unknow
          n, causes has been reported rarely following
          vaccination with measles, mumps, and rubella va
          ccines; however, a causal relationship has not been
          established in healthy individuals (see CONTRAINDI
          CATIONS). No deaths or permanent sequelae were
          reported in a published post-marketing surveillance
          study in Finland involving 1.5 million children and
          adults who were vaccinated with M-M-R
          during 1982 to 1993.{60}
          Under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of
          1986, health-care providers and manufacturers
          are required to record and report certain suspected adv
          erse events occurring within specific time periods
          after vaccination. However, the U.S. Department of
          Health and Human Services (DHHS) has established
          a Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)
          which will accept all reports of suspected
          events.{49} A VAERS report form as well as in
          formation regarding reporting requirements can be
          obtained by calling VAERS 1-800-822-7967.

        • @Jack thank you for your time and response, I know you’re incredibly busy; do appreciate it very much.

        • Don’t give me too much credit the majority was cut and paste from Merks own paperwork.

  9. Mek visiting his banker dad at work in the early 80’s and going into the bank’s vault: “dad, where’s all the money?”
    Banker Dad “the banks don’t keep all the money in one place. We have enough to cover expected daily needs… blah blah blah”

    Then later on comes the realization that what we call “money” “finances” and the “economy” are numbers on a piece of paper. They are fictitious, fantastical illusions we have created for ourselves and arbitrary values we have assigned. We desire order and we create it where none exist in the same way we assign value to an object, process, or system that has no value save an arbitrary evaluation.

    You say at most forty years. I suggest you may have underestimated the people’s intense commitment to their illusions. Especially when the alternatives, however well explained or rationalized, are foreign to them.

    Some people will always just want to keep playing monopoly, man.

  10. Government/Economic evolution is happening. “The lack of sustained and predictable funding at the state and national levels will thwart infrastructure projects”. That is from Jane Garvey at the opening of LBJ in Dallas. She was a member of Obama’s team and is now an executive at Meridian.;_ylt=AwrC1Cn_qvlVqlIAKp6TmYlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw–
    This is so common now they call it P3 (Public Private Partnership) for short. It is used here in the USA, Europe and around the world. The process is used for rail systems, airports, roads, and utilities.
    So, government can’t build roads any more: what’s next?

  11. Jack, can you please link me to that “cutting concrete corners and planting trees” thing you were speaking about? I have searched and am coming up empty handed. Or if there is a specific search term I should use, that would help. Thank you! Great podcast!

  12. Great show, Jack. I really liked your analogy at the end to becoming “system martial artists” — looking for opportunities to use the state’s own momentum or action against them.

    Another great analogy I’ve heard for the kind of approach you promote — just going on with your work to better yourself, your family, and your community regardless of what the state says you “can” and “cannot” do — is that we’re termites. We slowly eat away at the existing structures just by going about our daily work, hardly noticeable from day-to-day, but eventually the structure becomes so eaten away and rotted out that it just collapses under its own weight.

    For my part, I’m raising 36 chickens (previously 37, but one turned into 5 qts of stock on the shelves in my basement) in my backyard doing a variant of Geoff Lawton’s chicken tractor on steroids — even though the Town Code says I can only have 10 on a lot less than 7 acres. I figure that by sharing lots of high-quality eggs with my neighbors I can head off any complaint from them — if anything, they would probably end up pissed off at the town officials if they came and gave me a hard time.

  13. Great show Jack.

    FYI: it was brilliant Pulitzer-winning American author Upton Sinclair who lived from 1878 to 1968 who wrote the many times quoted line “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.”

    Our research of history going back at least 10,000 years shows the folly, and ultimate collapse, of virtually all organized, centralized societies.

    That is why I believe, as I think, to a great extent, you do too, that we need to evolve to small farm-based communities of no more than 150 inhabitants, that still are linked to similar communities near and far for exchange of physical and intellectual “property” on a truly fair and open market basis.

    However, as you use as an analogy the fat person not turning to diet and exercise because they want pleasure NOW, I feel that most people will be reluctant to give up their perceived pleasure of the moment (which we have been conditioned to hold on to). As a matter of fact, as you alluded to, and others have ascribed there is a “War Against Change.”

    So only a relatively few will GET IT and will comparatively painlessly evolve into the future (near future) of their “World” having abundant healthy food, happy and healthy lives, more quality time, in self-sustaining communities that are capable of being independent of the “outside world” as far as energy, water, etc. and being capable of providing their own security, education of the young and care for the old (which can be mutually beneficial), and handling any special individual problems that may crop up eg. helping somebody who could be headed for a problem (Sandy Hook, Aurora, or even the woman, with a comparatively minor challenge you helped a few weeks ago).

    While I sense, from what I am privy to as only a founder, there may be “growing pains” in the PermaEthos concept (c’est la vie), the “1.3” version of a concept I see is to develop such communities needs to evolve.

    I trust my similar, but highly financially leveraged, approach can have the same outcome regarding developing such autonomous communities. – We’ll see.

  14. I agree with 90% of Jacks arguments but anarchism breaks down at the morality level. Many people are not moral and never will be. Then you develop systems to deal with them and now you have government.

    Then there is the problem of others coming from somewhere else (or within) to take your stuff and freedom. Where does the army come from to protect your stuff/land?

    I see it working within a community but not on a large scale. Or maybe I don’t understand and large scale is not what you have in mind..,?

    • Like many no you don’t understand.

      The morality issue is self governing. No immoral person will become an anarchist, they can’t do it.

      Criminals be they street, corporate, political or religious in nature REQUIRE A STATE. Anarchism is a door that exists the statist system, the number passing though the door determine the velocity of its own growth.

      In a society where say 80% are moral people and respect the rights of others, state or no state the thief, rapist, murderer, etc. have no quarter.

      And yes SMALL GROUPS, a billion small groups all voluntary is the eventual answer. Again though this is 7th generation thinking.

      Note that anarchism is the ONLY POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY that doesn’t impose itself on anyone.

      Try this as a thought expirment. What if all anarchists had the visible A tattooed on them. You have to choose it and once you do it is permanent.

      At that point you are removed from both the protection and enforcement of the law. Now that only applies to other anarchists or if your crimes are against other anarchists.

      So if I steal from another anarchist, the LAW can’t do anything but any other anarchist can.

      What do you think the real crime rate among those of with the A would be in say 5 years?

      Almost zero!

      Why, everyone that entered the system was aware of the rules and did so voluntarily.

  15. I appreciate your enlightened view! I have been studying these ideas for a while. The Founders brought us to a new level, but I know man can go further. I agree that government should only protect liberty and nothing more. The Founders wrote a law that could do that but they were not at the place where they could let go of a systematic governmental structure. I guess I am not there yet. It will be a long time before men will not want to dominate and control others using government, religion etc… (This coming from a church of Christ christian, super conservative biblical view).

    I will keep listening and learning. I love the anarchist concept. I can see it as a solution, probably not in my life (57 years old). Keep doing what you are doing because I do think you are onto tremendous ideas.

    • See what holds you back is what others will do. What if you did that with your faith?

      What if you said, since the entire world won’t become biblical Christians I will remain purely secular?

      Of course anarchism won’t exist in your lifetime broad scale, but will it exist for you and those you influence, that is in your control. Again this is a philosophy for personal existence.

      Again NO ONE YOU FEAR will ever sign on to anarchy, however quite a few you fear will sign on as Christians, think about that.

      Note that isn’t a knock on your faith at all, it is just a factual observation. There are a lot of people who have harmed others that claim to be Christian but not many that claim to be anarchists.

  16. Jack,

    There will never be 100% of congress under 1 party. When you hit 80% of 1 party the other party will either crash and a new party will be born or the crashing party will redevelop itself to try and make itself relevant again.