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Oil Lady
Oil Lady
13 years ago

Jack, this episode was just way too cool! I have so many friends in the medical profession (I’m a nursing assistant). I feel like I can share this episode with them with no problem. Thanks for such an awesome and manageable look at an area of prepping that maybe a lot of us see as too insurmountable to even begin to tackle.

NWBowhunter
NWBowhunter
13 years ago

I don’t see the link to the PDF doc for medicine info. Were you able to locate the resource?

Ty Moore
Ty Moore
13 years ago

I was VERY excited to see that you reviewed this. I’ve been looking for it online for months. There are actually joint FDA/DoD web portals for the SLEP that request that information be kept confidential. Your average joe cannot get access. The best I’ve found are articles about pharmicutical longevity written by people who have reviewed SLEP studies, and of course the Tamaflu information which was released. I’ll bet the sellers of fish antibiotics are going to be scratching their head today as they start pulling bottles off their shelves to fill orders placed the last couple days.

Ross Radford
13 years ago

Let’s just hope that if you have an infected tooth that somebody has lidocaine laying around.

Mug
Mug
13 years ago
Reply to  Ross Radford

You can use clove oil for an infected tooth, used it myself and worked great.
They sell first aid tooth kits at pharmacies (I have one in my BOB) that contain the clove oil.

steve murphy
steve murphy
13 years ago

i’m gonna have to listen again with my notebook handy. way too much info to absorb

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  steve murphy

Hi Steve, If you have any questions for us we would be happy to answer them at drbonespodcast@aol.com, thanks, Nurse Amy

Nate Schlis
Nate Schlis
13 years ago

Wow, Awesome Interview! Great Info! Not a good episode to listen to at work, I was glued to my notebook and ear phones! Keep up the great work! I cant wait for my wife to hear it, she is a nurse…

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  Nate Schlis

Hi Nate! Nurse Amy here, thanks for the kind words! If you missed anything, please let me know, or if you have any questions about gardening or medical issues. Our email is drbonespodcast@aol.com. We loved being on TSP, Jack is a great host! Thanks, Nurse Amy

Kevin Goats
Kevin Goats
13 years ago

The best interview to date. Covering two very important topics emergency medical and gardening.

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  Kevin Goats

Hi Kevin! Thanks for the comment! I love gardening and have been studying really hard to learn as much as possible. Getting a mindset for collapse medicine when no medical system exists takes some time to absorb. We will be happy to answer any questions at drbonespodcast@aol.com. Thanks, Nurse Amy

Mug
Mug
13 years ago

RE: Expiration dates for medications:
“The following is a general notice from SLEP manager:
As a reminder, all testing and extension data provided to the Shelf Life Extension Program (SLEP) by the Food and Drug Administration is considered For Official Use Only and cannot be shared with anyone outside the user’s organization. SLEP Administrators have fielded several calls recently from individuals wanting to share this information with local, civilian counterparts. That is not permissible, as it is not only a violation of the terms agreed to by the FDA but also a violation of the Memorandum of Agreement each participant organization signs prior to entering the SLEP program. SLEP website accounts of violators will immediately be terminated and inventories may be eliminated from the program, pending notification of the parent organization. Additionally, non-SLEP organizations that use SLEP information are in violation of Federal law that governs misbranded pharmaceuticals” – U.S. Army Medical Department
http://www.usamma.army.mil/dod_slep.cfm

Other:
http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics-WSJ.htm
http://www.dsls.usra.edu/grandrounds/20091027/khan.pdf

“The DoD Shelf Life Extension System (SLES) consists of two main components. The first piece is the Materiel Quality Storage Standards as prescribed by AR 702-18. These standards provide the inspection, testing, and storage requirements for extendible (Type II) shelf life materiel. The second piece is the Quality Status Listing (QSL) which contains the results of previously accomplished extension testing.”

Ross Radford
13 years ago
Reply to  Mug

WOW… just, wow!
This is rediculous. Somebody should file a request for this information in leiu of the freedom of information act, for sure. I have no idea how to even begin but people have a right to know! Who is it going to harm? Oh, that’s right… the pharmaceutical companies!!

Mike Swan
13 years ago

This was an awesome show. I listened to it while I was driving around (I’m a local truck driver). It was so hard to pause it long enough to get my bills. Keep up the good work.

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  Mike Swan

Hi Mike! Don’t get into an accident..lol. Thanks for the nice comments, we really appreciate it. Sometimes it feels like we are talking to ourselves in our library. Nice to know someone out there is listening!! Thanks again, Nurse Amy

Janet
Janet
13 years ago

Can’t find the government study on medicial expiration dates. Please advise. Thanks!

Rotor
Rotor
13 years ago

Sorry for lawyering the issue, but it’s For Official Use Only meaning it isn’t classified or anything. The message just states that it’s a
“violation of the Memorandum of Agreement each participant organization signs prior to entering the SLEP program.” You’re not part of the MoA, and from the previously posted message it sounds like all they’d do anyways is cancel your account — which you don’t have in the first place.

“Additionally, non-SLEP organizations that use SLEP information are in violation of Federal law that governs misbranded pharmaceuticals”

That part isn’t about disseminating the info, it’s about what you do with the info – ie taking misbranded pharmaceuticals, which probably means past the expiration date on the label.

Anyways, still understandable if you don’t want to share it. Maybe it’s on that one wiky page.

Mug
Mug
13 years ago
Reply to  Janet

Obviously, just because some web page says something is illegal doesn’t make it true. We do need to get a good investigative journalist, lawyer and perhaps a well known whistle blower website to release the data (that we paid for) so all of us can benefit from it.

Perhaps someone (and by that I mean me) should contact the journalist from the WSJ article that I linked to above to see if they are willing to help get us the data.

BUB
BUB
13 years ago
Reply to  Janet

Actually Jack, all that says is that if you USE the information you are in violation of the law for using expired drugs. Unless there is some sort of secrecy statement on the document that says otherwise your release of it is probably pretty safe.

Jason
13 years ago

Awesome show loaded w/ practical, implemental advice. Two questions:

1- Can a stun gun be used as an impromptu defibrillator when someone is having a heart attack? I’ve asked several doctors & they couldn’t give me a yes or no answer.

2- Is a medical bag considered an FSA (flexible spending account) eligible item? Any one have experience buying a decent kit and then getting reimbursed by their insurance through their FSA?

Look forward to the report, Jack. Now I’m off to stock up on meds for my aquarium-bound friends. 😉

Jason
13 years ago

I have AETNA insurance & found the following:

http://www.aetna.com/members/fsa/eligibleExpenses/overthecounterFSA/overthecounterexpenses.html

It seems like OTC medicines are ONLY eligible for reimbursement if you have your doctor okay it (which I have done).

However, OTC supplies seem to remain the same. I get reimbursed for bed pads & “bandages”. Wondering if that makes medical kits reimbursable.

Adam
Adam
13 years ago

What was the pocket reference guide that Nurse Amy mentioned?

Lunk
Lunk
13 years ago
preperationh
preperationh
13 years ago
Reply to  Lunk

Yes but the only “documents” that the wiki page links to are an info document (a short synopsis of the study) and the “official” SLEP program login page (as mentioned by Dr Bones and Nurse Amy).

Unfortunately the wiki page does not link to the full study.

Ross Radford
13 years ago
Reply to  Lunk

I was unable to access the file. As noted in the podcast, those files are now protected behind a members-only login page.

Lunk
Lunk
13 years ago

Right click and save as. Still works as of now.

Ross Radford
13 years ago
Reply to  Lunk

That’s a no-go. Are you logging in to Wikipedia or something? I’d rather not have to do that if that’s the case.

BUB
BUB
13 years ago
Reply to  Lunk

That document is only a short synopsis and what I assume Jack has (just based on the ones he chose to read during the show) SLEP seems to be an interactive database and not a document.

Bite
Bite
13 years ago

Can you postthe Fema info in the members section of your website.

Gunter
Gunter
13 years ago

@Adam:
“What was the pocket reference guide that Nurse Amy mentioned?”

Physician’s Desk Reference.
Some pdfs online at trnt.

Gunter
Gunter
13 years ago

Regarding Shelf Life, this may be of some interest.
It is clearly a PUBLIC document, therefore, no issues.
Click the link (or paste into browser). If/when a Certificate Acceptance window pops up, just accept it.
About half through the 99pg doc (after all the terms) is where it begins.

https://www.shelflife.hq.dla.mil/Policy_4140_27/DoD_4140_27-M-PUBLIC.doc

BUB
BUB
13 years ago
Reply to  Gunter

Nice document, although this document is only telling you how to interpret codes assigned to medicines, nothing about the meds themselves.

BUB
BUB
13 years ago

Brian Cihak
{REDACTED ADDRESS}

September 3, 2011

Lewis Oleinick
Chief Privacy and FOIA Officer
Stop 2533
8725 John J. Kingman Road
Fort Belvoir, VA 22060-6221

FOIA REQUEST
Fee waiver requested

Dear FOIA Officer:

Pursuant to the federal Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552, I request access to and copies of any and all results of the Shelf Life Extension Program regarding prescription and non-prescription drugs and their extended expiration/usefulness dates. The existence of this data is hinted in the following document DoD 4140.27-M as well as a document titled EXTENDING THE SHELF LIFE OF CRITICAL CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL, NUCLEAR AND RADIOLOGICAL (CBRN) MEDICAL MATERIEL USING THE FDA/DOD SHELF LIFE EXTENSION PROGRAM.
This data is available at the following website https://www.shelflife.hq.dla.mil/ but is under password control.

I would like to receive the information in electronic format.

Please waive any applicable fees. Release of the information is in the public interest because it will contribute significantly to public understanding of government operations and activities. This information is in the public interest for those who may need to know the efficacy of pharmaceuticals in cases of public emergency and natural disaster as well as times where organized professional medical care may not be readily available and these drugs could be used to save a life.

If my request is denied in whole or part, I ask that you justify all deletions by reference to specific exemptions of the act. I will also expect you to release all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material. I, of course, reserve the right to appeal your decision to withhold any information or to deny a waiver of fees.

As I am making this request as a journalist and this information is of timely value, I would appreciate your communicating with me by telephone, rather than by mail, if you have questions regarding this request.

I look forward to your reply within 20 business days, as the statute requires.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

Brian {REDACTED}

BUB
BUB
13 years ago
Reply to  BUB

Ok I got a response, said that “sorry this is the wrong agency, you want the FDA”
They did give me contact information so Letter #2 is on the way.

Brian Cihak

October 5, 2011
 
FDA
Parklawn Bldg
Rm 6B-05
5600 Fishers Ln
Rockville, MD 20857
 
     FOIA REQUEST
          Fee waiver requested
 
Dear FOIA Officer:
 
Pursuant to the federal Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552, I request access to and copies of any and all results of the Shelf Life Extension Program regarding prescription and non-prescription drugs and their extended expiration/usefulness dates. The existence of this data is hinted in the following document DoD 4140.27-M as well as a document titled EXTENDING THE SHELF LIFE OF CRITICAL CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL, NUCLEAR AND RADIOLOGICAL (CBRN) MEDICAL MATERIEL USING THE FDA/DOD SHELF LIFE EXTENSION PROGRAM. 
The first piece is the Materiel Quality Storage Standards as prescribed by AR 702-18. These standards provide the inspection, testing, and storage requirements for extendible (Type II) shelf life materiel. The second piece is the Quality Status Listing (QSL) which contains the results of previously accomplished extension testing.

This data is available at the following website https://www.shelflife.hq.dla.mil/ but is under password control.
 
I would like to receive the information in electronic format.
 
Please waive any applicable fees. Release of the information is in the public interest because it will contribute significantly to public understanding of government operations and activities. This information is in the public interest for those who may need to know the efficacy of pharmaceuticals in cases of public emergency and natural disaster as well as times where organized professional medical care may not be readily available and these drugs could be used to save a life.
 
If my request is denied in whole or part, I ask that you justify all deletions by reference to specific exemptions of the act. I will also expect you to release all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material. I, of course, reserve the right to appeal your decision to withhold any information or to deny a waiver of fees.
 
As I am making this request as a journalist and this information is of timely value, I would appreciate your communicating with me by telephone, rather than by mail, if you have questions regarding this request.
 
I look forward to your reply within 20 business days, as the statute requires.
 
Thank you for your assistance.
 
Sincerely,
 
 
Brian Cihak

BUB
BUB
13 years ago
Reply to  BUB

Shocker, FDA says Go see DOD…

Mug
Mug
13 years ago

For anyone else considering an FOIA request, please add the following to it with the QSL data being the most important:
“The first piece is the Materiel Quality Storage Standards as prescribed by AR 702-18. These standards provide the inspection, testing, and storage requirements for extendible (Type II) shelf life materiel. The second piece is the Quality Status Listing (QSL) which contains the results of previously accomplished extension testing”

Bill
Bill
13 years ago

Excellent interview Jack , one of the best ones yet. Lots of great info.

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Hi Bill! Thanks so much for the nice comment! The interview went so fast and there is so much information we want to talk about. I hope Jack will invite us on again sometime! Let us know if you have any questions. Thanks! Nurse Amy

Brian
13 years ago

If you use
“To assure preparedness for war or other contingencies” filetype:doc
you get 2 other articles that have some dates in them. I have filed an FOIA request for all documents pertaining to these dates and will share whatever information is gleaned from them when I get them. That being said I’m not holding my breath.

Gunter
Gunter
13 years ago

Chill…..I think maybe Brian was mentioning IN ADDITION to your instructions for the pdf, that if a person puts “doc” they can find 2 OTHER articles. Also that he kindly put in an FOIA request so that others can more easily find this info that should be public.

By the way Jack, doing exactly as you instructed, only yields on link, to a SLEP info paper of Oct 2007. It’s only 6 pages long. Assume this isn’t the correct one.
Thanks anyway. Eventually we’ll get a copy.

Ross Radford
13 years ago

I completely understand where you’re coming from and I appreciate that hint. It led me to find another possible lead. One could cut and paste this into Google…

“inurl:slep.dmsbfda.army.mil/slep/”

Matt
Matt
13 years ago

Nice! Thanks!!!

Ty Moore
Ty Moore
13 years ago

Dissapointing, but understandable. Why didn’t that crackpot Assange collect and dissiminate THIS information?

Ty Moore
Ty Moore
13 years ago

I copied and pasted to google; I saw a 6 page .pdf. (Was the only listed document.) But I’ve gotta believe that there is a more extensive listing that charts out there. I’ve seen an example table for tamaflu. I’m just disappointed that this publicly funded study isn’t more readily available. I do appriciate that you offered what guidance you can.

Ty Moore
Ty Moore
13 years ago

122 drugs evaluated; one would hope commonly used drugs. It isn’t the whole shebang, but if you have access to PubMed (local university might also have an account) you can look up the following.
PMID:16721796

Stability profiles of drug products extended beyond labeled expiration dates.
Lyon RC, Taylor JS, Porter DA, Prasanna HR, Hussain AS.
SourceDivision of Product Quality Research, Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, Food and Drug Administration, HFD-941, White Oak, Life Sciences Building 64, 10903 New Hampshire Avenue, Silver Spring, Maryland 20993-0002, USA. robbe.lyon@fda.hhs.gov

Abstract
The American Medical Association has questioned whether expiration dating markedly underestimates the actual shelf life of drug products. Results from the shelf life extension program (SLEP) have been evaluated to provide extensive data to address this issue. The SLEP has been administered by the Food and Drug Administration for the United States Department of Defense (DOD) for 20 years. This program probably contains the most extensive source of pharmaceutical stability data extant. This report summarizes extended stability profiles for 122 different drug products (3,005 different lots). The drug products were categorized into five groups based on incidence of initial extension failures and termination failures (extended lot eventually failed upon re-testing). Based on testing and stability assessment, 88% of the lots were extended at least 1 year beyond their original expiration date for an average extension of 66 months, but the additional stability period was highly variable. The SLEP data supports the assertion that many drug products, if properly stored, can be extended past the expiration date. Due to the lot-to-lot variability, the stability and quality of extended drug products can only be assured by periodic testing and systematic evaluation of each lot.

PMID:16721796[PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

Ty Moore
Ty Moore
13 years ago
Reply to  Ty Moore

FYI, I just obtained a copy of this article. It has tables of “Durg Product” “Dosage form” “Lots Tested/Dormant/Active” and provides Extension Times (months) in both Mean (Not Average, but similar) and Range. The drugs tested were a combination of Tablets, syringe-needle, injection-solution (bottle, syringe needed to use), powder, emulsion, apsules, etc.; most of the testing was done on injection solution drugs. So, if you’re looking to find results for one particular drug using a specific delivery method, you *might* be out of luck. But, if you’re looking for more general knowledge regarding SLEP and the kinds of results obtained, this is a good resource.

Joe
Joe
13 years ago

Great interview!!! Where can I find the article he wrote foe the book? I have looked and can’t find it. Keep up the great work.

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  Joe

Hi Joe! Thanks for asking about the chapter Dr Bones has written for Back To Basics by James Talmage Stevens. It will be in the future edition #13, I’m not sure of the exact publishing date, however we will ASK James and find out for you! Dr Bones is writing everyday for the collapse medicine book! There is so much information to cover. We will also be in Denver and Salt Lake City presenting on collapse medicine. We will be at booth #100 in Denver, please stop by if anyone is attending! If you or anyone else has any questions for us feel free to email us at drbonespodcast@aol.com. Thanks so much, Nurse Amy

Agorculture
Agorculture
13 years ago

My wife and I listened to this episode while driving to Quebec for vacation. We went to a place that specialised in rabbit and the food and service were absolutely superb! I had a rabbit cassoulet and rabbit rillettes. The restaurant also offered rabbit liver and kidney salad splashed with Xeres sherry vinegar. I wished I had room (and money) for that but the preparation and taste of the cassoulet was amazing- it was both rustic and simple, yet sophisticated and refined. It was filling and satisfying. Quality ingredients and quality technique. The rillettes were a most delicious concoction or, rather decoction of rabbit meat, bones, vegetables and herbs. Ensconced in fat, it is an essential food preservation technique for the gourmand. I just purchased the excellent, excellent Food Production Systems DVD and am thinking of raising rabbits. I am having a hard time getting over the family pet, however, that I had to put down eight years ago due to a terrible infection; it broke my heart.

Are Tribbles edible? They are self-fertile and very prolific. However, Joel Salatin is not a fan of what he referred to as “the Star Trek mentality” in food!

Charles
Charles
13 years ago

I guess if anyone gets the whole report post a link.

switch
13 years ago

Could you post that shelf life report when you get a chance?

Thanks!

Gunter
Gunter
13 years ago
Reply to  switch

Switch, he already said no in a comment earlier on in this page.
But someone will eventually come up with the correct info to search for. Also another commenter here put in a FOIA request. So just a tad more patience.

“All I can say to those who are wanting the Self Life Extension report is I am not going to distribute it and wanting me to take the risk by some of you is kind of bullshit. Sure there is nothing to worry about, as your ass isn’t on the line.”

switch
13 years ago

Sorry, just read the “Crap! I forgot to upload it” comment from you. Instead of shutting down the comments maybe put a note in the show notes section saying that you can’t for….

Michael Matthews
Michael Matthews
13 years ago

Outstanding show. New to the prepper podcast, but so glad I found it. Have learned some new things in a very short time. Thank you.

229Mick
229Mick
13 years ago

Yea, great show! I found this:
http://www.upmc-biosecurity.org/website/resources/publications/2009/2009-03-27-max_st_local_med_cntr.html#shelf-life
the PDF attached has at least some of the info (specifically mentioning 13 year shelf life for ciprofloxacin and 7 for doxycycline) and no disclaimer on the page that I saw, and no requirement for a password to get it. Haven’t read though the whole thing yet as I’m still digesting the episode, and all my notes!

Thanks as ever.

Agorculture
Agorculture
13 years ago

I can only find antibiotics in powder form at the petstore. Should I get these or search online for the recommended antibiotics? Would the shelf life be adversely affected? Even so, there are four or five powdered antibiotics to choose from- should I focus or buy an assortment?
Thanks!

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  Agorculture

Agorculture Hi! Ok, I would try to find the pill versions of these medications.
Here is the article that Dr Bones wrote about exp dates and fish antibiotics. It includes a list of some good ones to have:
http://doctorbonesandamyshow.blogspot.com/
Look at popular posts for :Making Penicillin at Home, it is from May 9th.
At the bottom of that post are a list of antibiotics and a link to the exp date article called: A Doctor’s Thoughts on Antibiotics, Expiration Dates, and TEOTWAWKI(written BY Dr Bones) I hope this helps! Nurse Amy

Agorculture
Agorculture
13 years ago

Hi Nurse Amy,
Thank you so much for answering my questions and for the article! I really appreciate it and this information is immensely helpful! I look forward to learning from your awesome podcasts, posts and videos. Thank you and Dr. Bones for putting this out!
BTW, after reading the making Penicillin article, it occured to me that counterfeit/tampered medicine will become a much bigger problem in TEOTWAWKI than it is now. We will have to be aware of warning signs and, likewise, be able to prove that our medicines are good for barter.
Thanks!!!

Vin
Vin
13 years ago

Thanks, Jack! I’m currently listening to this podcast and was so excited I had to post a thank you! Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy are A-W-E-S-O-M-E!!! I’m currently going to school to get my Associates in Nursing and am already an EMT and this was the reason WHY! Of course, I started before I heard but, I the reason is still the same. I want to help people get around Government Regulations when it comes to health. We don’t NEED 90% of what’s shoved on us and the other 10% is the serious stuff that they tend to ignore. Off mysoapbox… Thanks again, Jack!

DrBonesandNurseAmy
13 years ago
Reply to  Vin

Vin, Thanks so much for the really nice comment! Good luck in your medical training. I know it’s hard work, but soooo worth the effort!! You will be a great “medic” if a collapse ever happens and people will turn to you for help. So keep learning everyday, you can never know it all! Thanks again, Nurse Amy