Episode-1963- A LEOs Perspective on Contacts with Law Enforcement
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Andrew is a 55 year old graduate of the University of Illinois B.A. Political Science/Economics/Criminolgy.
He also served in the United States Army, Infantry (MOS 11B1P) but ended up in S2. He did three years active duty, then five years in the GaANG on the pistol team, and armorer for a Personnel Services Company.
He then dedicated himself to 27 years law enforcement with a wide degree of experience including patrol/drug investigations/supervision/management in a major metro-Atlanta LE agency with +/- 1000 employees and a service population of 700,000.
He is the third generation of LEO in his family and the fourth generation was sworn in two years ago. He joins us today with a LEOs perspective on dealing with law enforcement contacts and on LEOs that both keep and break their oaths.
Join Us Today As We Discuss…
- Why people become police officers, and why some make it a career
- The culture of police officers
- Police officers and the Constitution
- How to interact with police officers when
- “Stopped” perhaps as a suspect of a minor crime
- As a witness to an incident
- During a disaster, natural or man made
- When armed with a firearm
- Marijuana why you can be for legalization even if you think it is bad
- How to be respectful, yet not be grovelling and roll over for the cop
- Individual officers vs. law enforcement administration
- Race and law enforcement
- Effective relationships between law enforcement and people to make better communities
- Modern Survivalism and LE and how there are many intersections of principles
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I’d like to ask the good officer why it is that they all swear to an oath to uphold our rights according to the constitution but will enforce any unconstitutional statutes and codes?
It’s not really the politicians that oppress the people as much as it is the police.
Well I would like to believe it is that cut and dry but it just fucking isn’t. Is the supreme court part of the constitution? Well fucking yes it is! So where there are SCOTUS decisions saying a law or procedure is constitutional and you disagree but your oath is to the constitution itself, what do you do?
If you think that answer is easy you have never sworn such a oath and I am betting you have not.
One thing LEOs are spot on about is it is very easy to arm chair QB in a game where you have no skin in said game!
Jack,
Great Podcast!! Opsec? GREAT.
Minor note, I am part of a LEO family, retired since about 1996.
Thanks for all you do for thesurvivalpodcast, and for all you and the wonderful Dorothy concerning 9 mile farm. Yeah, I am checking out S3 of the Duck Chronicles.
One thing that I didn’t hear:
If you are getting pulled over, don’t just pull over unless it is safe to do so. Not just from “your” perspective but also from the officers perspective. If there is a well lit open parking lot or an exit within a mile or so, slow down, roll down your window, wave to the officer and keep driving to a place where the officer can safely get out of his cruiser and come deal with you. If you are on the interstate right after a turn or hill, drive to the end of the next straight away and pull way off the road. Even if the officer doesn’t consciously recognize your courtesy, sub-consciously they will be more relaxed. If they do realize that you are concerned with the safety of others, that will be taken into consideration. Common courtesy goes a long way.
Case Law:
WTF is that? (yes I know the answer)
When did judges get the authority to write law? This usurpation of powers by the judiciary is eclipsed only by “administrative law.” With very few exceptions the use of case law (previous court decisions,) is what is being taught in the law schools in this country to the exclusion of the application of the Constitution and statutory law. The question now is why would the legislators allow this? Well, before entering politics, what did most politicians do? Kind of sheds another light on the dynamics of the interactions between the “establishment” and Trump doesn’t it.
A quick personal story on why I always answer the question of “Where are you heading?” with either home, work, or visiting a friend in town nearest where I am currently at, depending on the circumstances.
Several years ago, I was driving about three hours to visit some friends and got pulled over in a speed trap about halfway there. It was a very long, straight stretch of divided highway where the speed limited dropped from 65 to 55 to 45 over a quarter of a mile.
I was going 65 in the 55. How do I know this for certain? I spotted the cop about the same time he spotted me and immediately looked down to check my speed, 65 mph. And when I stopped, it was about 10 yards shy of the 45 mph sign. So, he gets out, comes over and asks for the standard papers. He glances through them, then asks where I’m going. I respond truthfully. He then goes back to his car and comes back with the citation.
75 mph in a 45 mph zone. I ask how that is possible since I am stopped short of the 45 mph sign. He responses that “If you disagree with anything on the citation, you are welcome to take it up with a judge.” Then turns and walks back to his car and pulls away.
The additional speed on the citation cost me an extra 200 dollars in fines and would have cost me my license, if I would have had any other points on it at the time. I very seriously considered appearing in court, but after factoring in taking a day off of work to make a three hour round trip with no guarantee of the judge’s decision, I concluded the cost wasn’t worth the possible benefits.
Cut to 6 months later and my younger brother happens to start attending college very close to where I was pulled over. At one of the introduction meetings, this specific speed trap is discussed. Apparently, the it is very near the state police barracks, and very common for an officer to be assigned a full shift on this speed trap. It was recommended that if one of the students were pulled over in the speed trap, that they hand their student ID to the officer along with their papers.
The reason given was that it was well know in the community that the speed trap was a revenue generator that targeted drivers passing through on their way between two major cities, about 5 hours apart. Being this was close to halfway between them, it was unlikely that anyone not local would come back to fight the citation. To keep the peace, they would let anyone local to the area off with a warning, unless the violation was particularly egregious. Being that most of the students would have out of area addresses, the student ID was presented to show that they were local.
None of this was official policy of course, but well know enough for it to be discussed with new students in the area. Do I have proof of this? Circumstantial, but refer to my experience above, then compare to my brother, who being 18 and stupid at the time, managed to get pulled over twice in the same day in the same speed trap (by two different officers), once while legitimately going 80 in a 45, and was twice left off with a written warning.
So, if I am ever pulled over in an out of town area and asked where I am going, I’m visiting friends/family in whatever the nearest town is.
You could always just obey the speed limit. Might make things easier.
Comments like that are why purist anarchists use the term “boot licker”.
That’s one way of looking at it, but Kyle P has a good point. First rule of the “Grey-Man Principle”: If you don’t want attention from LEOs, then don’t do things to attract their attention.
Good stuff hearing commentary from the other side of the Thin Blue Line. Keep ’em coming.
Bullshit and here is why.
1. I bet you and Kyle P, speed every single time you are on the road for more than 20 minutes.
2. If you actually read the post that started this you will see it is a speed trap to the level of a Roscoe P. Coltrain, trap.
What is described here is PURE ROAD PIRACY. It is one reason so many end up hating cops, it is a position they should never be put in, it victimizes people and being okay with it makes one part of the problem.
Same shit where my Dad in Law got busted years ago. Two schools, two school zones, sign says “End School Zone, Resume 45MPH”, less than 15 yards and the next school zone starts! Oh FUCK THAT, and just as in this story, cops ran that thing into the ground, until the people of Mansfield showed up at a town council meeting in such numbers threatening to pull clowns out of their chairs that they simply made the full area a school zone and called off the pirates.
This shit happens, a fing lot and speed traps are pale in comparison to some abuses.
What is your definition of “boot licker”?
Listening to this podcast I failed to see how obeying the speed limit is different than a number of examples you shared of how you personally deal with LEOs.
You shared that when you are pulled over you will often voluntarily give the police officer your CCL card even if not asked for or required to do so. You mentioned that you do this to de-escalate the situation. Is this boot licking or just protecting yourself?
Obeying the speed limit is the same tactic. Following the speed eliminates or greatly reduces the number of instances in which you will be pulled over and so limits any interactions with LEOs. No interactions means no escalations – you do it for your own protection.
Also, based on your comment I would assume a pure anarchist would consider anyone who pays their federal income taxes a boot licker. Because the state collecting income taxes or a speed trap collecting revenue are both “authorized” uses of force collecting money from the people.
I understand a pure anarchist doesn’t believe this, but as you always state in the show “we need to live in the real world.” Does that mean a pure anarchist believes everyone not in prison for tax evasion is an IRS boot licker?
So, whether it’s following the speed limit in a speed trap or paying your federal income taxes your best bet is to do both. Because like you also said in the interview the point of enforcement is not where you should “make your fight.”
Then it’s up to all of us to decide if we want to invest our time into fighting the speed trap, the income tax requirement, or any law at the appropriate level of government. In your example, you show how the people of Manfield came together to fight the speed trap. But for Derek, it probably doesn’t make much sense for him or anyone else to rally a campaign in a city 3 hours away to end this speed trap.
Following the speed limit would have allowed him to go on about his day, on time and unmolested, and saved him money.
See your own other comment and I should not have to explain myself. Also read the entire story, this is an example of police corruption and a clear speed trap.
To write such things off with “if you don’t speed you don’t have to worry” is akin to “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about”.
I don’t call such people boot lickers by the way, I said purists anarchists use that term because of attitudes like this, and they often direct that term at people like me by the way.
I actually find it to be a foolish statement! It smacks of blind patriotism.
Also note you keep saying pure, I said purist and I refer to them as purist assholes.
A quick follow up: I think the thing that most irked me and led me to write a wall of text about the incident, even after several years, was the fact that the officer choice to add 20 extra mph to my speed. He most likely had no choice in being assigned to that duty, but he chose to bump up the fine, completely unethically and regardless of the fact that it could easily have led to me losing my license, because he knew it was unlikely I would come back to challenge it.
I also have more recent counter example of a officer in a similar situation that performed his duty admirably. I was driving home from work with my car’s registration having expired the previous month. I was aware of this, it had simply slipped my mind send in the forms and required “donation” for the year.
A local cop pulled me over and asked if I knew why he stopped me. Seeing as I had a post-it note about his eye level on my visor that said “Renew Registration”, that is what I guessed. He informed me I was correct and that he was required to write me a citation. However, he told me that if I got it taken care of within the week and showed up for the hearing, he would recommend that it be dropped and I would get all of the fine back.
Short version: He was true to his word. I renewed it the next day, took the hearing, and was in and out in about 15 minutes and a check with my money back showed up two days later.
All of us would agree that adding to your speed is a deceptive and horrendous act by this officer. This would be an example of a “piece of shit” LEO. No question!
Your situation is proof to us all that we should install the dashboard camera / phone setup with GPS speed tracker that Jack has talked about on the show.
Just reading this
I was born
Nuff said 🙂