Episode-1416- Listener Calls for 8-29-14 — 46 Comments

  1. I first heard My Way in a Spanish translation at the age of 7, before I knew who Sinatra was, and before I knew English, and I loved it for what it said at an age when I could not have possibly comprehended the full meaning of the lyrics or maybe I did. Such is the nature of My Way.

  2. On cooking with honey…

    Baklava… period. Good lord what a treat!

    Oh, and the teaspoon trick… I do that too with a raw milk chaser. Calms the beast.

  3. Oh, and the Greek pastry, Kataifi. Similar-ish ingredients to Baklava depending on your recipe but completely different texture.

  4. I have a Remington model 700 .243 that was my Grandpa’s, he started me out deer hunting on that rifle, when I got older he let me use his 30.06 and after one season, I went back to the .243….still use it to this day…but I use it on Texas White Tail…this rifle I have was made in the mid 60’s and it is BY FAR my favorite rifle!

  5. On Amaranth and Chickens… sprouting amaranth is a b!tch, so +1 on the no-sprout, but amaranth is relatively high in calcium which your layers will need. I like to use it as an ingredient in my home made suet cakes and flock blocks.

  6. Jack I am a little biased. My dad shot 6mm rem. He bought me one when I was old enough. So I favor the 6mm rem. I know, I k ow they are about the same ballesticly. I too love the 30-06 like a brother.
    I would like to hear an entire show on guns and ammo. If you cannot do a whole show in handi rifles you can do another facet of guns.
    You really make me want to get a Hand I rifle. Thanks

  7. At the ranch there were 5 rifles. A Crossman pump BB gun on which I learned to gun safety before moving on to a an old Remington bolt action .22LR. There were also a .22 model 60, and old single shot 12 gauge (kicked like an angry mule) and lastly a lever action Marlin that everyone called a 30-30, but the cartridges were stamped with 32. That rifle and the bolt action were stolen. I’m not sure if it was a figment of my imagination, but I have never seen that lever action in stores. The bullets were just as big as the 30-30. It was fun to shoot in brush country but it did have a little kick to it.

  8. Agreed you do need to do more firearms shows. You did a show on underrated rifle calibers where you brought up the 6.5 Swede and a few weeks later I came across a great deal on a CZ with a full length stock in 6.5x55mm. Best gun purchase I’ve ever made.

  9. Yea that show on underrated rifles is still one of my favorite shows. I am a big fan of some of those calibers. 6.5×55 and 25-06 Rem.

  10. In reference to the question about the 243 winchester combo gun, while I don’t know about WA state, I think it should have been mentioned that there are areas of the country where the 243 is not legal for hunting deer for whatever reason. Also, while I have no problem with an experienced hunter using a 243, 223, or even 22lr, for deer, I wouldn’t recommend them as cartridges for a young, inexperienced hunter.

    • There may be places where the 243 isn’t legal but to say you would not recommend it to a “young, inexperienced hunter”. I am sorry to sound like a dick but do you work at Walmart or Academy Sports behind the gun counter? Saying a pro would be okay with the 22LR but a young hunter would not with a 243 shows a complete total lack of understanding of ballistics and terminal performance.

      Flatly a shot that will wound and not kill with a 243 on a deer will also wound and not kill with a 308 on a deer.

    • Also while it was a quick search I admit I was unable to find a SINGLE state where the 243 is not legal for deer except for the few that are shotgun only. Meaning all rifles are illegal. If you can point to a single state that has a caliber restriction on rifles for deer that excludes the 243 I would like to know about it. I am not being terse, I really would.

      • Also and I apologize if I appear to be dog piling on this one, but it bugs me when people say things like this.

        Let us compare the 243s energy with two very popular deer rounds at 100 and 200 yards using the 100 grain bullet with the 243 and the most popular deer bullet weight with the other two.

        243 with 100 grain bullets will yield the following about 1600 lbs @100yds and 1350lbs @200yds

        30-30 Win with 170 grain bullets will yield the following about 1350 lbs @100yds and 990lbs @200yds

        35 Remington with 200 grain bullets will yield the following about 1280 lbs @100yds and 841lbs @200yds

        Adding to this here is the sectional density for the represented bullets, (SD is the ability to penetrate)

        .243 100 grains .242
        .308 170 grains .256
        .358 200 grains .223

        That means all three are damn close to each other and that the .243 and .308 rounds at that weight are damn near ballistic twins. I difference of .04 SD is meaningful. But a difference of only .014 is almost meaningless.

        Simply put the 243 is in every way measurable both on paper and in the field a better round for white tail deer than the 35 Remington or the 30-30 Winchester.

        Are there better rounds for whitetail than the 243 over all, sure but it is in no way inadequate for the job and in no way a “experts only” option for deer.

        Frankly the most popular round for very young shooters in Texas is the .223 which I personally thought was reckless and irresponsible until I saw what a 55 grain Barnes Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet in .223 did to the chest cavity of a 150 pound whitetail.

        • In regards to the inexperienced hunter part, we will just have to agree to disagree. My opinion is based off my experience in hunting over the course of my lifetime, harvesting well over 100 deer, and my experience taking young hunters afield. I also have the opinion that they shouldn’t shoot at range. I never mentioned pro, or “experts only” as you quoted me.

          I have read game regulations while doing research for out of state hunts a few years ago, that placed a minimum of 6.5mm bullet diameter for big game. It’s not worth looking through the game regs of all 50 states, so I concede, I was wrong.

          I would not have even felt the need to respond except that for some reason that I cannot explain, the accusations that I work at Walmart or academy, and throwing numbers at me, just rubbed me the wrong way. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have an in depth understanding of ballistics, and am willing to email you whatever proof of that that you want, but it’s akin to me trying to tell you something about fiber optic cable, or successful podcasting. It’s a portion of how I make my living, as a police sniper.

        • Well I have opened up a shit load of chest cavities. I know as much about ballistics and terminal performance as I do optical cable. Tell me exactly how many well hit deer with a 243 you saw wounded and how many poorly hit with a 308 you saw dropped?

          This is nonsense, your opinion may be based on seeing a lot of deer killed but it sure isn’t based on seeing many wounded with the 243 or seeing many poorly hit dropped with another round. A gut shot deer with a 30-06 is as big perhaps a bigger problem than one gut shot with the 243.

        • Jack, I usually don’t comment here. I listen to your show mainly for the permaculture and business talks, which I love!

          “I am sorry to sound like a dick but do you work at Walmart or Academy Sports behind the gun counter?”, why would you provoke a listener like this? For someone who claims to care about his audience, you are quite the hypocrite.

        • Because I speak plainly and that is how the comment sounded, like an ill informed gun counter employee advising a customer with no grasp of the reality of what was being said.

          I am not a hypocrite, you can care about a person and call them out on BS at the same time. Don’t be a tea cup!

    • @Tom
      I almost dog piled on this one as well.. but if you reread the comments its not really that contentious a discussion.

      What would be interesting is to hear where @trekker111 is hunting his deer, and any specific stories he has regarding the inadequacy of the calibers he cites.

      A couple of episodes ago some comments were made about the size of the deer in the north (pushing through snow) and the south (lighter/smaller is better) and I’m curious if this is where the difference in perception is coming from.

      The ORIGINAL comment that I feel is accurate.. is that the real issue is the hunters ability to fire a ‘correct’ (killing) shot. In others words.. if you’re a crappy shot, a larger caliber/more powerful gun is not the solution.

      So get your butt to the range (or practice in the environment you’re going to be shooting in.. targets thru brush from standing, kneeling etc.) until you can put that bullet on target every time.. THEN get your deer license.

      IMO its irresponsible for anyone to be shooting at a living animal until you can kill it quickly and reliably. And that also means if you’re taking a less skilled hunter shooting, that they need to be taking the ‘easy’ shots only, and you need to be ready with a follow up if they miss/wound.

      super extra just my opinion..

      • Yea I am sorry if I sound like a dick here but damn, I have heard this argument so often it boggles my mind. Frankly 99% of the time I hear it I do over hear it at Academy and Walmart, etc. That is why I said it that way, it is simply the truth.

        The 243 is such a proven deer killer it isn’t really worth discussing. Show me a deer that wasn’t taken down effectively with the 243 and I will show you a bad shot on that deer. Show me a bad shot with a 308 on a deer and I will often, just as often show you a crippled deer.

        What I think happens in these situations is we tell ourselves something like, “the 243 is a light for deer caliber” for so long we believe it, even if it just ain’t true.

        Big deer? Yes indeed I would be less likely to choose the 243 as a deer round say in Norther Michigan with 240 plus pound bucks, but I also know that is ME letting this thinking into MY HEAD too. The 243 will plum smack the shit out of that deer.

        The key is when you are shooting 300 yards and hitting bone on an animal like that. Still this is the exception not the rule.

        I shot a 200ish pound Sika Deer (they are from Japan and look like small elk) with a 7MM Magnum. I was shooting Federal Premium ammo, 165 grain bullets. This is a flat out killer elk round, most would not hesitate to shoot a big bull at 300 yards with it, nor should they.

        This deer was slightly quartering on, I put the bullet square on the shoulder and he went down like he was dynamited. Um then?

        He didn’t get up but began flailing his head around like a maniac, clearly in pain and freaked out. While I hated to blast him though the back on his side with that cannon and ruin meat, my ethics caused me to do so. He went silent.

        I walked out to him and saw the first shot had done the following.

        The round hit right at the V shaped bone in the shoulder. With the quarter on shot, I could have NOT done better, it was textbook BUT ballistics are not always what they seem. This round hit the V so perfectly that it turned the round 90 degrees strait up and went out the top of the deers back.

        It nicked the spine when that happened and that is why he went down and could not get up. But there was almost NO BLOOD LOSS at all. Had this round turned just a fraction more upward and not nicked the spine this deer would have been horribly wounded and never likely recovered. Gang green and coyotes would have finished him later.

        Does this mean the 7MM Mag is too light for a 200 pound deer or that you shouldn’t take a quartering on shoulder shot? No, it most certainly doesn’t.

        But I bet you a dime to a dollar had this shot happened with a 243 someone would tell a story and another and another and the bullet would get the blame.

        In this case I did everything right and still almost wounded an deer vs. put it down. I would have never understood what had happened if that had been the case. When I dropped the hammer I was 100% sure of my shot. In the end it was because the shot was damn near perfect. The round was certainly up to the task.

        My point is shit happens, saw a 35 Remington turned by a brisket bone of a deer shot chest forward and we never found that deer. Two days of tracking with dogs and snow and NO DEER. Next year a buddy shot a deer when he skinned it there was a scar from the front center of the chest to the back ham on one side.

        Shit happens in the field and sometimes it is weird, when it happens to be a “lighter round” inevitably we blame the round.

        • I had washed my hands of this, but I think there may be some inaccurate assumptions and miscommunication at work here. I spent the last couple days listening to old episodes, which I usually do. (I’ve heard every one at least once, most of them 3+times) In one of them I heard Jack/you say that nobody should agree with you all of the time, and if you do, your not thinking for yourself. (Paraphrased). All I could think at that moment was, and if you don’t agree you better keep it to yourself.

          Nowhere did I say a 243 was unethical, incapable of humanely killing a deer, or any such thing. I merely said that it is not what I would recommend for a young hunter, and it isn’t. I even pointed out that I did not have a problem with it, and even lighter cartridges, being used, with some caveats.

          All of us remember our first deer. Adrenalin, buck fever, what ever you want to call it, it affects newer hunters, and subsides with experience. I have on multiple occasions seen a 243 fail after hitting or grazing a leg bone, the bullets would have continued on to what would have been a relatively clean kill, but after fragmenting, they stopped short, and the deer suffered. They were all harvested, most even within a few yards, but I feel a deer deserves better than to lay and suffer, and in the areas i hunt, usually after they go down, you can’t see that the deer is still alive until you are up on them. If that can be controlled by a hunter who knows their limits, and has the self-discipline to hold their shot, or pass all together, then great. I have never condemned anyone for using a 243. Young, inexperienced hunters are less likely to know their limits, or push it, and are therefore more likely to have their shot stray that few inches that changes things.

          That is not even the bulk of it. I just do not see anything that puts the 243 over any of the other cartridges which most would consider to be in the category of “common deer cartridges” the difference in recoil between something like a 308, and the 243 is negligible. Sure it’s less, if everything else is the same, but you can get more of a reduction in felt recoil by installing a better recoil pad. I have never seen a 308, or 06, not penetrate at least deep into the lungs, and/or heart, after hitting a leg bone, and usually they still exit the far side. 2 comparable rifles, one in 243, another in 308 are going to be the same price, and the ammo for the 243 is either the same price, or more expensive.

          Many hunters start with deer, and before long, move to other things, such as hogs. I have only had 1 experience with a 243 vs a hog, and it was so bad I will never try it again. A roughly 200 lb boar, which was technically domestic. It was live trapped as a piglet, and confined ever since. Long story short, it got out, we couldn’t catch it, so after a couple days, my friend, who owned it, decided to just shoot it, and grabbed his 243. When the pig showed up to eat the corn, about 80 yards away. He shot it in the neck, the pig jumped, shook its head, then continued eating. He shot a second time, this time for a heart/lung, the pig fell, kicked for a second, then got back up, then he shot it in the side of the head, then ran down and cut it’s throat. The head shot actually killed it, so cutting it’s throat really wasn’t necessary. The first shot mushroomed beautifully, and came to rest against the spine, with out as much as chipping it. The second shot lodged in the gristle plate without anything making it past the ribs. Had it not been for the head shot, the pig would have either lived, or if it did die, it would have been from infection.

          It doesn’t make sense to me to recommend a rifle, which will need to be replaced, or a second rifle added to the safe, when the hunter decides to start also hunting hogs, or black bear, or they get the chance to travel to somewhere like south west Iowa for the rifle antlerless season. It’s were I was born and a 400lb doe isn’t that uncommon, but most of my hunting has been in north western Michigan, where the average adult deer is about 180, and south Carolina where 180 lbs is a monster, and 100lbs is normal, but we have a 3 month long rifle season, and we get to shoot a LOT of deer. I usually shoot about 10 a year, and stop when the freezers are full. It’s a family affair, with a total of 5 large freezers, when they are all full, we stop, which boils down to I have been skinning, gutting, and processing roughly 20 deer a year, for the last 15 years, and seeing the results of everything from 223rem, to 375h&h mag. As a side note, the cartridge I have seen that most reliably produces “dead right there” (drt) results, tracks straight regardless of bones hit, and still does the least meat and/or hide damage, hands down goes to the 375H&H.

          The 243 is a great varmint round, but tough on the hides. A 308 with a fmj is just as good and easier on the hides. If you don’t care about the hides, it really don’t matter what you use.

          My opinion isn’t based in any disdain or loathing for the 243, simply that there are rounds that are on at least equal footing in all categories one could judge a cartridge, and still better in some areas. And if someone were to walk up to me and ask my advice on a rifle for their kid to start hunting deer, I would recommend the 308 Winchester, if they were just a new hunter, I would recommend either a 308, 30-06, or 270 winchester depending on where and what type of hunting. In either situation, if they thought recoil would be an issue, I would recommend a pachmayer decelerator, or limbsaver recoil pad be installed, with their budget deciding the type of rifle. I wouldn’t recommend a magnum unless the rifle would also be used for elk, moose, brown bear, etc.

          While many of us have several rifles, and a few favorites (sometimes for reasons that only make sense to us) but in the original call which led us here, the caller said that he had the money for the combo now, may not in the future, and that would lead me to believe that money is an issue, and therefore another gun down the line may not be possible. Also, since the caller was from Washington, they have the opportunity for black bear, hogs wouldn’t surprise me, mt. Lion maybe even. My uncle lives in northern California and he hunts or sees all of the above, so its not that big of a stretch for Washington to be similar. When the hunting bug bites, I wouldn’t want someone to be restricted by their gun, or lack thereof.

        • Yea I guess we are back to agreeing to disagree, did you read my comments about a 7MM mag being turned by a shoulder blade. And there is no reason to replace a 243 when someone gets older.

          I guess the horse is dead here, I find all the rationalization about the 243 not being good for an “inexperienced young hunter” to be nothing but complete and total BS.

        • I’ll add one more thing. That pig? Likely your friend was loaded up with 80 grain factory rounds meant for Yotes. Right tool for the right job, stick light jacked 130s in a 308 and you will get the same thing. Tons of pigs are killed down here, many over 200 lbs with 243s.

          You can’t look at one event or two and judge a round. You just can’t. Again if I did I would say the 7MM Mag is a terrible under powered round. My experience is just that, the reality though is that would be a foolish conclusion for me to make.

        • I do also want to say I after your long reply do respect your opinion and I understand it. You are not a Walmart Gun Counter Guy and I am sorry for that inference, I still disagree with your assertion but I do respect it.

        • @trekker – (wrong reply level)

          thank you for taking the time for a longer reply

          I appreciate you sharing your experience and opinion on this subject

          I think one of the problems with ‘comments’ is that they’re not (initially) a ‘conversation’.. so when read, one tends to respond to what was said.. rather than asking for clarification on WHY it was said, or seeking additional information that would clarify what the person was trying to communicate.

          Again, thanks for taking the time to clarify WHY you made your initial comment.. I really do appreciate it. =)

  11. Jack, it’s funny you said the Post Office workers are thieves, when I first started subscribing to Backwoods Home, my first issue didn’t come in so i called them up and they said it shows to be mailed out but we’ll send you one in a manilla envelope, we have this problem a lot, the workers at the Post office see the magazine and either steal it or take it home and read it and sometimes they pass it around, I called my local Post Office and of course they denied it, a couple days later I got my 1st Magazine in the envelope just as the promised, 3 weeks later I finally got my magazine as it was originally mailed and the plastic sleeve it was mailed in was ripped all the hell, I called and complained again to the post office and told them Backwoods Home said and my magazine has never been late since LOL

  12. Right on with electric in front of hedge for goats. They tend to do more damage scratching bark off with horns than even the browsing otherwise. Our cows eat tons of hedge apples and honey locust beans (literally) then deposit seeds at the loafing shed in the laneway. I have a picture of thousands of seedlings that germinated there in the spring. Never a choke incident in my lifetime w the apples. Did have 2 cows killed by lightning while sheltering under an Osage orange. Latex in the fruit has some digestion inhibitors when fresh but after a couple weeks they ‘sweeten’ a bit. They’re in mulberry family like breadfruit and jackfruit. Originally food source for giant sloths, gomphotheres and other Pleistocene megafauna. Leaves are 10+% crude protein. Top work maclura w cudrania and you have edible Che fruit plus a hedge.

  13. Was really drawn in on your speech at the end there. Something that lends itself very well to this is Paul Coelho’s, “The Alchemist.” A cool little story about finding your own personal legend. Jeremy Irons does a great job with it on

  14. I would agree with you Jack that there should be a little more gun talk on TSP.

    Maybe I’m just reading it wrong or not paying attention enough, but it seems to me that TSP has taken a more gardening/permaculture/food based slant over the past few months. I live in an apartment in Arlington, so all of the gardening, herbs, bee keeping, permaculture,etc stuff goes right over my head and lately I seem to be fast-forwarding more often than I used to or skipping shows entirely. I know it’s useful stuff and if I get a house someday I bet I’ll go back and relisten to a lot of it. But I remember when I first started listening a few years ago that I seemed to hear a lot more about politics, finance, wilderness survival, hunting, first aid, BoB/BoLs, DIY projects (that are gardening related), etc. I would like a lot more of that.

    Again, it may just be my entirely skewed perception, but it seems TSP focuses a lot more on the food and water parts of the 6 Survival Requirements. I personally would like to hear more about the other 4 more often, as well as more politics and financial talk. It’s extremely hard to find sensible Libertarian based talk radio without a corporate Republican slant. And your opinions on specific topics like Detroit (I’m from around there) and teachers are always refreshing to hear.

    Anyways, thanks for all you do and today’s show was definitely a good one.

  15. Jack, you mentioned some kind of fertilizer to put on your garden, you said ” juice”?? I’m thinking it was some kind of homemade fertilizer – when I got to work I was going to google it but now I don’t remember where in the episode it was mentioned.
    I can of course listen to the whole episode again but thought someone might recall. Thanks.

  16. To the caller that asked about the hedge apple tree. I think you also asked if there are any other species to be weary of in your hedge. The black cherry tree (Prunus serotina) when damaged or stressed (cut or windfall) is highly toxic to ruminants.
    We cut a small tree on our property and found this out the hard way. Our cow ate the leaves from a tree we cut and was dead within 15 minutes. Once the stressed leaves are invested the body converts the toxin like arsenic and there is no remedy.

    • A few kinds of trees will produced cyanide when the leaves are wilted – anything in the prunus family or maples too. This can be mitigated to a degree by access to a good mineral block and make sure there is plenty for the livestock to choose from in the paddock.

  17. Shoot a deer with a .243 and you will understand. Enough said.

    Rossi vs NEF/H&R…

    I have owned both and you want the NEF/H&R over the Rossi…everytime. The quality is just not there. My Rossi locked up several times. Never had an issue with the H&R. Believe it or not, my H&R bull barrel .25-06 recoils LESS than my AR15. I don’t know why and I’m recoil shy. I bought my son the Rossi Tri-fecta in .22/.243/20ga…but I have since moved it along and bought higher quality guns.

  18. Will see 1 or 2 dairy cows choked by osage orange a year in an area of practice that doesn’t have a lot of dairy. Usually get stuck around the thoracic inlet, and is usually not an easy fix. In my university days in the late summer/fall there would usually be a dozen or so come in from around the area. Seems like most cows that do it once become repeat offenders. It happens in beef cattle as well, but they usually go to the butcher instead of the vet 😉

    • You have to wonder if it is something breed specific or some nutrient deficiency. Such differing experiences as we see here are strange.

      Some have been around cattle their entire lives with Osage and have never seen a single problem. You have seen, well, more then a few.

      I guess it is another “it depends”.

  19. That may be the best speech you have ever given at the end…. I needed that. I’ve been… in a haze lately.

  20. Oak leaves aren’t recommended for milking animals so you might not want to include it in your hedge. There are plenty of other trees that provide good forage for livestock and humans.