Episode-1399- Listener Calls for 8-1-14 — 56 Comments

  1. Here’s one for you. Given that it is recorded that actual Jesus being crucified said “forgive them for they know not what they do” wouldn’t it be logical to forgive those desecrating a piece of his body, if that actually is what it is? How many times was Jesus spit on, hated, beaten etc and I don’t remember him burning anyone at the stake. If religion followed its own example, we might be in a much better place.

    • This is just a guess but after several waves of the Black Death something seriously changed in the attitudes of the people of the 14th century. Transubstantiation was an established doctrine long before this terrible act of burning people to death for host desecration. See the Fourth Council of Lateran (1215).

      Long before that… the people believed in transubstantiation yet no one was desecrating the host and no one was getting burned for it if they were suspected of it. Why is it happening now and why will it stop after the Reformation?

      It probably has something to do with the Lollards (the followers of the late John Wycliffe). There is a disagreement on the nature of communion… what exactly is happening there? It is symbolic? It is actual? The Lollards were poking the Church pretty hard about it and the Church was not happy about it. It may have also been about a regression… a return to a primitive paganism… that after being devastated by the Black Death they were trying anything to appease an angry god. It’s a guess but maybe the people were worried they had been doing something wrong and that is why the Black Death hit them.

      I remembering attending a talk by a Catholic priest who stopped in the middle of his talk and said that he was an imperfect man, that he believed in God and that he hoped he was not wasting his time turning bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

      OK. That doesn’t sound good. Does it? But I did not take it as a lack of faith and neither did his audience. He believed in transubstantiation but it didn’t make sense to him logically so he was a little worried… hoping that he wasn’t misleading himself in his utterly sincere belief that he was actually changing the wine and bread.

      In a modern world it is reasonable to think about how our religious rituals fit into our modern world. Something changed after the Black Death and something changed again after the Reformation… not just for the Protestants but for the Catholics as well.

      Whether you believe in this ritual or not, what is the real practical consequence? If you miss the Sunday NFL kick-off, is that so terrible? You’ve reviewed your misdeeds for the week and looked forward to improving yourself in the future. Anything wrong with that? The lawn doesn’t get mowed on Sunday. Will civilization collapse?

      The problem the modern person has is what the practical consequence of a belief has on the non-believer? In other words… if you believe in A, B, and C but I believe in X, Y and Z, does that mean you are going to come over and beat the crap out of me and force me to believe in A, B, and C or kill me?

      As long as we are using our words but not our fists, we are OK. We may think that Group A are witless fools but as long as I have a reasonable opportunity to avoid them, we all should make room for each other.

      So… when I’m riding the bus and an obvious Muslim woman sits next to me (and I am an obvious Jewish man) I make room for her to sit as I would anyone else. If a Catholic sits next to me and notices I am a Jewish man and begins to tell me about the Bible I have the choice to listen or to change seats.

      BTW, both instances have happened to me more than once and it was no big deal. It should not be a big deal. When I run into the local Imam, we smile at each other and swap greetings. He shakes my hand heartily in front of his fellow Muslims.

      Believe what you want to the extent that it doesn’t hurt people. We don’t have to love each other but we should make room for each other enough so that everyone can have a little bit of what they need…. not everything they want but enough so that they have what they need.

      That is my opinion. Of course it is. I just wrote it. 🙂


  2. On bitcoin…

    So because of the cap and fictionalize you end up with all the benefits of deflation, lower prices, higher value of money, etc. without the negative effect of a shortage in the money supply.

    Think about what that means for things like wages. Since the money you bring home every week continually buys more, then you really don’t ever need to ask for a raise. No need for a minimum wage at all.

    This would really encourage saving, and discourage borrowing. There would be no need for interest on loans, depending on the growth of the economy you might actually have to have negative interest loans!

    This is such a strange world to imagine. So opposite to everything we are used to. I think the potential for prosperity with this is huge!

    • Yep but it is cap and fractionalize, not fictionalize.

      I am not picking on your typo, likely auto correct doesn’t recognize fractionalize, LOL but the word is PERFECT for the actual monetary system. I am stealing it!

      Fictional Reserve Banking!

      Oh wow why did it take a typo for anyone to come up with this, GOD BUT THAT IS PERFECT.

      Fictional Reserve Banking!

  3. On the ducks, couldn’t you create a paddock shift system along a main swale with little ponds that empty into a swale through some type of discharge pipe or something? Like open a gate for the ducks to go to the next paddock/next pond and a lever to empty the pond into the swale. I feel like this would be great to put insane amounts of fertility into a system.

    • There are a lot of things you can do, the key is cost.

      Ponds – to use for ducks they either need to be small, something you can drain and fill almost daily or very large, I would say at least 7500 gallons if they are going to self maintain. This costs money.

      Paddocks – Electro net to be honest is a pain in the ass moving it daily. If you are paddocking a few rotations of meat birds for 8-12 weeks, well that is one thing but to move it year round EVERY day, what a big pain in the ass. So you need to put in permanent fencing for this to be viable. Would it work really well, yea, but what is it going to cost.

      Again though if you fence ducks out of the areas that are really tender (like a veggie garden) I don’t think you have to paddock them. They are soft on the land and free range here without much trouble. Our only chore with them is daily water dump and fill, if we had one or two small ponds (real ponds) they would honestly be no work at all.

      • I’ve been making semi permanent paddocks with the orange caution barricade fence . Directs the ducks with low cost and rolls up easily. They’re penned from predators at night.

  4. Hey Jack! Are the ‘5 Minutes with Jack’ videos on still functioning? I have tried in three different browsers and updated Adobe Flash Player, but they still just appear as black rectangles with no play button. Some of the content in the podcasts seems like video would be much more beneficial, so I hope there is some kind of resource available to watch them. Thank you!

  5. As a catholic I disagree with your views of the Church. That being said, I am not offended. If anyone is offended they need to put their big girl panties on. There’s a reason why Jack says, “one man’s view”. If you do not want to hear it just fast forward. Good show Jack

    • Well, what do you disagree with, my BELIEFS or my assessment of the stance of the church?

      If you disagree with my beliefs, fine I get that.

      If you disagree with my assessment of doctrine, well you don’t know your own churches doctrine.

        • So you don’t disagree with any facts I present at all, just my opinion, I can live with that.

    • I was amazed why Jack went on about what the Catholic Church teaches that the mass is the real changing of bread into the Body Of Christ. He knew quite a bit (he mention bible verses) and he was pretty accurate. Since he brought this up, I think he feels real strongly about this. He said he and many Catholics raised from birth in this tradition just believe it and don’t question it. I agree with this 110 percent. This described me until I was challenged and I research both side of this argument. The history and the documentation of the Catholic Churches claims and History to back it up are over whelming.
      I think the “prime directive” of Permaculture is really good, but it almost sounds like a religion. I think I listen to Jack because I am learning tons. Recently Jack said like there maybe to many people on the plant and no one should be forced by government to limit the number of people , but maybe you could choose this.
      The population of the planet is still growing, but that is largely due to the fact that the life expectancy has shot up so high in the last 40 years. The fact is that birth rates are so low for the majority of the world (Africa being the exception) that is a world wide problem. Yes overspending and debt are huge problems but, the World wide declining birth rates are causing a collapse of working adults/retires ratio. When worker/retiree ratio goes from 3/1 to 1/1 how can you ever hope to solve the debt crisis. Just look at the collapse of the Social Security. Worldwide Secular culture is dying , natural law tells you that. I believe you can easily look at the direction of our society and use facts and science to show that it is the culture of the death. There “is a better way” it is simple choose life!

      • I went into it for the part you 110% agree with, you said,

        “He said he and many Catholics raised from birth in this tradition just believe it and don’t question it. I agree with this 110 percent.”

        Okay well even though many Protestants don’t like to admit it there are more Catholics (especially if you include Catholic sects like Ukrainian Cathloics, etc.) then all other Christians in the world combined, the number is over one billion.

        Now many Catholics today are leaving the church, most go to a faith like Lutheran, Methodist or Episcopalian at first. These are all very similar but less “strict” and less dogmatic. But they have everything a Catholic is familiar with, specifically the sacraments. Some leave for the same Reason a king once created his own church, to remarry. The hell one must endure as a Catholic who divorces is insane!

        Yet most eventually leave “church” all together. Today I feel the Catholic church is doing more to create agnostics, atheists and deists than any other force on the planet. There is so much dogma in Catholicism once you let go of a piece it is like pulling a thread in a tapestry, the entire thing falls apart.

        So here is my point, if 1.1 billion people tend to believe in things like Transubstantiation without questioning it, what do all of us do the same thing with. I guess I should have come out and said that?

        How much in our lives do we believe because Mom, Dad, The Church, The State, The School System said so, etc.? How much of it is wrong? How much has led to misery in the past? How much holds us back from happiness? Worse how much do we never question, never examine and never therefor either cast aside or confirm?

        As for permaculture’s prime directive it is no religion. If a permaculturist re wote the 10 Commandments you would get, “Be honorable and don’t hurt anyone”.

        Religions inherently come with dogma and one person telling another how to live in the name of some deity or yes perhaps some idea (Statism is a religion).

        The prime directive simply states and ethical fact, “you should be responsible for yourself and your children”. Yet there is no dogma as to how, there is no judgment for your method vs. my method. You take the ethical concepts and YOU figure out how they fit YOUR life for YOURSELF. In Mollison’s own words,

        “Permaculture is anti-political. There is no room for politicians or administrators or priests. And there are no laws either. The only ethics we obey are: care of the earth, care of people, and reinvestment in those ends.”

        A statement of basic ethics is not a religion. Permaculture has no dogma, now there are some hippies that try to create dogma but they have zero power, zero influence, etc. They don’t own the word, they don’t get to say what it is and what it is not. Books like the PDM are not “bibles” in that they present two things, scientific facts and techniques.

        There is no “thou shall build thy garden in rows of 20 cubits, each 2 cubits wide and they shall be on contour, so saith the God of Gaia”

        There is not even “thou shall build a garden”, there is only, if you want to, here is all the ways you can do that, pick and choose what works for you.

      • OK… I wrote a real long response to this that I threw away. Here is the shorter version…

        I hate putting words in Jack’s mouth but what I get from him is basically…

        “Think about what your needs are first. Don’t just buy sh-t because I tell you it is good.”

        My sense is that some survival businesses run on fear… on what can go WRONG… huddling in the dark with your shortwave radio but afraid to use it lest you be found.

        Jack’s business seems to run on what can go RIGHT even if what you fear doesn’t go wrong. Communicate with your friends and network because you can’t do it all alone.

        It is easy to make survival a religion. If you are doing it simply because someone is telling you that you must do this-and-that “to be saved”… well… that sounds a lot like religion. Doesn’t it?

        It is reasonable to be cautious but it is difficult to go wrong when someone tells you to prepare for the basic disasters that might occur in your area. Ohio is a good example right now. Their water is contaminated. Would a water filter help? I don’t know but if you’ve been collecting rain water, you are probably OK right now. Your neighbors are not OK.

        What could go wrong if you learn how to plant fruit trees? Honestly. What is so terrible? How much money are you out if the trees fail? 10 bucks? 20?

        Most people are not starting a farm. But if you are starting a farm just because you are blindly following Jack, then don’t blindly follow Jack. Don’t blindly follow anyone.

        There is an old story that goes back 2,000 years. It is a story of Hillel. (Ronald Reagan quoted Hillel on something else but I’ll paraphrase Hillel on teaching.)

        One day a Samaritan came to Hillel and asked to learn Hebrew. Hillel agreed and began teaching him the alphabet.. alef, bet, gimel … reish, shin, tav.

        The next day the Samaritan returned and Hillel reviewed the alphabet… but now the first and last letters were switched and down the line each letter was out of sequence.

        The Samaritan stopped Hillel and accused him of teaching him the wrong thing! Indeed. Hillel was teaching him something….

        Choose your teachers carefully. You are trusting them to teach you correctly but do NOT follow blindly. Crosscheck your teacher. Be skeptical and test your teacher’s character.

        Or… if you prefer Ronald Reagan… “Trust but verify.”

        Alex Shrugged

    • Jack was obviously raised Catholic and presents our beliefs well. I’ve gained a great deal of respect for his transformation to a Diest. A good person is a good person. My turning point in this episode is Jack’s statement regarding Catholic beliefs “I find it completely preposterous, personally.”

      I’ve been listening since November of the first year. Disagreeing is fine, but “I find” stating opinions such as this are idiotic (or preposterous) for someone depending on convincing (i.e. brainwashing) followers to put money in the collection plate (MSB).

      I wish you well Jack. I’m sure you won’t miss my $50/year. Don’t piss off too many followers.

      • Seriously you just made a case for MY OPINION then took your ball and left.

        “I find it completely preposterous, personally.”

        Note the personally! If you can’t hear the opinions of others and not wine and bitch when they don’t match your own, your problems are your problems.

        Let me put it this way, the OPINION of a devote, believing, practicing Catholic is that I will go to hell. That is a fact.

        So we know you believe this if you follow your own doctrine. So we know this is the Catholic (and many other faiths opinion) right?

        So given that opinion is far more insidious toward me than my assertion that much of what the church says is “completely preposterous, personally” should I refuse to do business with any and all members of the Christian faith?

        If you say no, tell me how you taking your ball and leaving over my opinion here is different?

        I guess you would say that your opinions are fine as long as OTHERS STATE THEM ON YOUR BEHALF but not if you personally state them? You go to mass weekly where a Priest says I am personally damned to hell right?

        Seriously your post above is not one of a thinking person. At least not at the time of the post.

        • I just got back from vacation. Great debate and great points.

          If we were sitting around the campfire at elk camp, the statement that set me off would have lead to an interesting conversation. My problem with this issue was the choice of words and because it was said by someone with 100,000 listeners.

          In that context, I must take my ball and go home.

          I stand behind my analogy between the collection plate and the MSB. In both, I voluntarily give my money in exchange for services; knowledge, community, entertainment and even “added value”.

          As for why it set me off (this is not whining, moaning, or whoa is me stuff), my family suffered persecution being Catholics. Personally, I experienced people in other areas of the survival community that showed utter hate toward Catholics. This background makes it a hot button issue for me. The fact that this community had such a civil and open debate is a testament to how Jack runs his business, the community he built and who he is.

          Jack, I personally believe you are a very moral and good person and I firmly believe you will NOT go to hell because you are a deist and no longer a Catholic. The church’s teaching about conscience, which tells me that when my conscience goes against the church’s teaching I must follow my conscience, is my basis for this.

          Thanks to all who chimed in on this thread.

      • PaCoTx: you’ve been listening since year 1 and you’ve never heard the disclaimer at the very beginning of the show “one man’s opinion”?

        Jack states that he does not believe that the bible is The Word of God, I do. Jack states that the Catholic Eucharist doctrine is completely preposterous, I concur.

        When Jack states “I find” he is indicating that it is an opinion based on what he has found, which he doesn’t go into.

        When I state that I find this belief preposterous it is I find that it isn’t biblical.

        Equating the MSB dues with the tithe/offering plate, doesn’t trash the MSB but rather the business aspect of denominational (5013c tax-exempt status) organizations.

        • Indeed the only thing I found of his stance actually insulting was referring to the MSB as a collection plate! Given I have actually returned money sent to me as a “donation” more than once this is quite insulting. The MSB’s value far exceeds the asking price.

        • (Something jogged this topic back to my plate)
          Jack: you are “insulted” when MSB is referred to as a donation whereas/because you in fact consider it to be a fair business transaction not in your favor exclusively because the benefits to the members exceed the cost of membership. You truly believe that you are giving more value than you are receiving and that you benefit by this, outside of the financial aspect. You are receiving something by this act of giving. What is that? Goodwill? What does giving get you? Do you give to get? If so, is that wrong? If you don’t receive proportionately in return are you justified in feeling bitter? If “it is better to give than to receive” Doesn’t that imply you’ve received something greater in return? What about these other well known statements: “greed is good”, “don’t be a scrooge”, “give until it hurts” and again “it is better to give than to receive”.
          What role does giving play for one’s personal life, for a community, a culture, a nation, a movement? Is it a tangible asset in one’s survival toolbox?

  6. Jack I cannot deny from a strictly meat production level on quail.
    But as a side a person could raise bait under the cages of rabbits. The droppings are ready for plant use right away.
    Now if a person raised rabbits and used the droppings for worm production and fed the quail worms then you could function stack ad the whole discussion would be mute.

  7. I’ve never done the math to compare raising quail, vice rabbits, for meat production. That said, if you’re a prepper the only obvious choice is rabbit.

    You need high protein grain feed and a lot of equipment (thus electricity) to raise quail. Rabbits can thrive year around on a forage based diet. With just a little pre-planning while setting up your homestead you can feed your rabbits properly year around. No electricity needed.


  8. Guys:

    If Ebola is so hard to get, why are so many western trained healthcare providers over in Africa getting the disease? With all of their training and precautions, as in HAZMAT suits, gloves, face-masks, and gloves, they are still getting it. Does this not contradict the facts provided?


    • So many, oh you mean TWO that spent all their time treating people with Ebola, yea that is a lot, jeez but turn the TV off.

      How contagious is Ebola,

      Well in several nations where the epidemic is RAGING according to the news, there are close to 800 million people. Of those there have been about 1300 cases and about 750 deaths, think about those numbers, those are IN THE NATIONS WITH THE EPIDEMIC.

      In other words you are more likely to die in a car wreck in this US than to die of Ebola if you live in Liberia.

      Wake up America, stop listening to the TV!

        • Though technically, just to be a devils advocate here, over a hundred of the in country medics have contracted Ebola with all of the protective gear. So yeah certainly if you don’t have contact with said individuals you will be fine, but if you do… well as they said, they don’t know how all of these health workers are contracting it . And then to argue the other point, I think a lot of the issues is the local people don’t trust the health workers and have been not sending their sick to clinics.

        • Okay first these people are WORKING DIRECTLY WITH SICK PEOPLE, they are also not wearing haz mat 24-7, NEXT and this is important they are not Americans! These are in country health care workers and likely no all are not wearing Haz Mat, jeez but the yellow journalism is just rampant in this crap.

  9. Jack, thank you for your honest assessment of the Catholic Church. Beside a few things with verbiage, you were spot on with what we believe about the Holy Eucharist. Your Catechism classes paid off!

    A few things:

    1. I disagree with your use of ‘brainwash.’ Your parents, aunts, uncles, etc (as you said) were not trying to brainwash you into something they thought was irrational, but a belief system they thought was important enough to impart upon you. You do the same thing with the podcast, though different thematically obviously. The Truths of the faith are presented, and you can choose to believe or not believe. You chose to walk away, freely and with your own will.

    2. The Holy Eucharist is a big deal to us, and God has many times actually changed the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. Here is one example:

    -This is the exception, not the rule. We believe the accidence changes, not the substance, though it has before. These are philosophical principles, and too much to go into on the blog.

    3. I am sorry for whatever harm the Church caused you, and encourage you to take a fresh look at coming back. Jesus did live, Jesus did die on a cross for our sins, and Jesus was resurrected.

    4. I hope some day to meet you in person, and maybe we can grab a beer and discuss these things further. I visit the DFW area often, and it’d be an honor to meet the man I have been listening to since the TDI days!

    God bless you Jack!

    • @Charlie, I respect you but this is so predictable. Always come back, you know what it doesn’t happen. Believe as you will, I can respect your beliefs without sharing them. Line by line to your points.

      #1 Brainwashing is brainwashing even if the brainwashers think they are doing right. IE, they are brainwashed too, so they don’t know it is brainwashing. If the teaching of the church is false and I BELIEVE it to be so, teaching it to children as fact before they have the discernment to make a choice for themselves IS BRAINWASHING. It may be relatively benign but it still is what it is.

      #2 Yes many Catholics believe in sainted miracles, etc. I don’t, believe as you wish, understand that many people led by logic will never share your beliefs. To anyone that can prove anything like this occurs James Randi has a million dollars waiting on you. The offer has been out for over 25 years now and The Amazing Randi’s money is still safe.

      #3 The church did not cause me “harm” and it amazes me that Catholics are so stuck on their faith that they can’t comprehend that people would leave simply because they no longer believe what the church teaches. Every single well meaning Catholic that you say you “left the church” to uses the word HARM in their request that you consider returning. Frankly Catholics if HARM is so common in those that leave, may be you better look hard at your church.

      #4 I’ll drink a beer with you any day, if you try to “save me” though you will find yourself alone at the bar and possibly stuck with the check.

    • Jack,

      I am predictable, you are so right! It’s weird, but I have been listening so long I do care about you and Dorothy, even though we have never met. I don’t comment a lot, but do listen pretty much every day. I just have a lot on my plate (i.e. five kids and a way too full time job) so I don’t get to be a part of the community as much as I’d like to.

      A couple things in response, which I appreciate you providing feedback on:

      1. We teach our children many things before they are of the age of discernment we hold dear, that they make subsequent life decisions about. That does not mean it’s brianwashing. While I don’t know the specifics about your family history (only what you elude to in the podcast), your family most likely was upset about your decision to leave, but did not ostracize you from family gatherings, etc because you did not hold the Faith anymore. I would imagine brainwashing would include such actions.

      2. I am not aware of The Amazing Randi’s work, but he seems to be a stage magician. The one example I gave has undergone scientific scrutiny. I encourage you to look more into it.

      3. I saw your post above about the Church in regards to divorce, harm, etc. I agree with you that the recent problems within the Clergy is a massive issue, and must be rooted out. And many teachings of Christ are indeed difficult I grant you. Deny yourself, be poor, love your enemy and those who persecute you, these are not easy things, and the practical ways they are lived out are even more difficult. However, when embraced, there is so much peace and joy in the Cross. One of my favorite lines of the opening a book I read recently, “Christianity, it must be remembered, is first a foremost an Eastern Mystical Religion.” I do sincerely believe that people leave the Church because of experience and lack of properly articulating the Truths of Jesus Christ, and do not doubt your sincerity.

      4. Never would try to save you. Not my job. But I’d definitely buy!

      • 1. We totally disagree! That’s okay.

        2. Scientific scrutiny of what is in there, not how it got there. This is so pointless and so full of potential fraud holding it up as proof of anything is nonsense. This is likely the weakest argument anyone could make, seriously.

        3. My point stands.

        4. Likely you’d not be able to hold back, and I would walk. I grow so weary of people that feel they need to shove what they believe into the face of others. I have NO USE FOR YOUR CHURCH, understand that. You do, I am fine with that but I consider all such beliefs limiting, false, misleading and at times very harmful indeed.

        If you think it is okay to send your 7 year old into a dark room with a strange man to tell him all his “sins” fine but don’t expect me to buy into such things.

      • Charlie,

        (I see there’s another Charlie now so I’ll use Chad instead.)

        Since James Randi was mentioned, I just wanted to say that, as someone who works in science and promotes science, I will definitely defend Randi’s work. In fact, I think he’s a treasure and he often catches on to what a scientist may be fooled by. As a magician, he’s basically an honest liar and understands how people fool others and more importantly, fool themselves. In fact, his work and some of his books are used in many critical thinking courses in many colleges.

        I’m not trying to talk you out of your religion – it doesn’t matter to me what you believe, but if your interested in how to test claims in a scientific manner, James Randi is the perfect place to start.

    • “Brainwashing” is an unfortunate word. A better word is “indoctrination.” Both carry a negative connotation but “brainwashing” has a lot of baggage that comes along with it. Pedagogy can sometimes be used but it is not commonly used anymore. We need a better word for what we are trying to do when we teach out children because we want to teach them more than facts. We want to teach them how to evaluate those facts to decide what is right and wrong.

      For example: I am handicapped. The most efficient use of critical resources right now would be to shoot me in the head. I am a net negative on the economy and the social structure because I am using more than I am producing. So… why not shoot me in the head? The reasons are moral, ethical and philosophical.

      1. The moral reason for not shooting me in the head is that God commands that we should not murder. Presumably I have committed no crime and I have not been given a trail in any case. Thus, you are not allowed to kill me.

      2. The ethical reason for not shooting me in the head is that I haven’t tried to shoot YOU in the head. In a sense we have all agreed to a social contract… as long as you don’t try to shoot me in the head, I promise not to shoot you in the head. It is an implied contract probably stemming from the moral rule that God commands us not to murder but we don’t need to believe in God to understand the value of such a social contract.

      3. The philosophical reason for not shooting me in the head is a more general case of the ethical reason… because it will cause a breakdown in society as a whole. If I must concentrate on my defense so that I don’t get shot in the head, that means I will spend a lot more time on defense issues. Therefore I cannot spend time doing more productive things like growing food, building houses or educating my kids. Because I grow less food, others will not eat. Because I do not build, people will have insufficient shelter. Because I don’t teach my kids, they will become outlaws.

      Those are all nice arguments but someone will say… “I don’t care about that,” and then shoot me in the head. Unless one believes in God and that God commands him, there is nothing absolutely compelling in the arguments I made. I’m handicapped, and it is more efficient just to kill me.

      The Nazis were nothing if not efficient. They began by murdering the handicapped and the elderly. The Jews came much later… after the Nazis murdered each other and the communists and trade unionists (which were practically the same thing) and then the religious for various reasons: mostly for political reasons.

      So… the reason we “indoctrinate” our kids is to make sure they treat certain ideals as absolute… even though without God they are not absolutes. That is… Don’t hurt people and don’t take their stuff. I’m your father and if you do anything even close to that I’ll beat the tar out of you. But then again… if I’m not around to supervise them what keeps my kids from hurting people and taking their stuff? A heck of a lot of “indoctrination”.

      So… as parents we must do some “indoctrination”. Exactly how much we do is up to the parents but it must happen. Children are not born naturally good. They are born neutral and since doing the “bad” thing is usually more fun and a lot easier than doing the good thing, most children will grow up doing “bad” things unless we teach them otherwise… and lean on them… a lot.

      FYI… I placed quotes around “bad” and “good” because those are value judgements. They are not absolute without an objective authority… by which I mean God. Without God, we must select a less that absolute authority which will grant us our rights. Of course any authority that can grant us a right can take it away with the same authority so it is generally considered safer to have those rights come from God. Congress is a less safe alternative…. a lot less safe.

      Alex Shrugged

    • I suggest reading the novel: “The Wave” by Todd Strasser.

      It is based on an actual California classroom experiment where a teacher tried to show his students how the Nazis indoctrinated otherwise intelligent people into doing terrible things. He illustrated how it could happen by using the same methods to indoctrinate his students. It wasn’t brainwashing. It was frightening how easy it was.

      So… it’s a problem and it’s not going away. It can’t go away. It’s part of our psyche to be susceptible to indoctrination. Now…. the choice is yours. Who do you want indoctrinating your kids (and yourself) and what, exactly do you want them to learn?

    • The other book I suggest reading is “The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements” by Eric Hoffer.

      He talks about how large numbers of people tend to believe certain things and how they change those beliefs. It is a book that you will find frightening because it describes all organizations… religious and secular… especially your own… whatever it is. If this book doesn’t piss you off, you are not paying attention. It’s real helpful.

    • Charlie,
      I think you missed the mark on Jacks thoughts on the doctrine of the CC. Firstly, you missed that he actually backed it 1000% with his last comment on transubstantiation being biblical, that if you believe the bible, you should believe in it.
      Second, since he is talking doctrine specific, the doctrine of faith in the cc is that it is a gift-thus, if Jack doesn’t believe, its because he doesn’t have faith, or at some time, stopped receiving the gift. its that simple (according to doctrine). Guess Im in that park too, though I pray for it, whatever that means…
      That’s all.

      • Well you hit a home run with part one, went off the rails in part two though.

        I respect your beliefs but don’t share them. Not just Catholic Doctrine but the entire bible, I don’t believe it to be the word of God, just a bunch of tribal leaders in the old testament and the writing mostly of gnostics in the new, writings largely in code and totally misinterpreted as being literal vs. astrological symbology, which is what they are.

        I didn’t “stop receiving a gift”, I found the freedom to cast off a myth. One you believe as fact. I don’t judge you for what you believe and don’t make personal assumptions or comments about you for what you believe. Please afford me the same courtesy.

        Yes it is biblical, indeed if one takes the bible literally. I personally take the bible as no more valid then books like the “Egyptian Book of the Dead” which the bible frankly plagiarizes.

  10. I’ve raised both rabbits and quail for meat. I found a good sized rabbit to be the equivelant of about 8 quail. I know I was able to feed four people with one rabbit. With qual, it’s usually about two per person. As a caveat, I did let my bunnies get a bit bigger than fryer size.

    That said, in my experience the qual are easier hands down, no question. That includes easier to raise, easier to dispatch and clean, and easier to not upset neighbors.

    That is my opinion anyway, and I had the quail on the deck of a condo.


    • See and due to that I say they are more productive. Why? I can raise more in the same space and there by produce more with the same footprint and less work.

  11. I grew up Roman Catholic, went to Catholic school until college and even was an alter boy.

    The whole mass is centered around the changing of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

    When I was thirteen my grandmother died. This and a priest who screamed at me for making a mistake caused me to begin to question what. I was taught.

    But what sped up the process was religion class in highschool. Our freshman year was bible studies and the. Catholic church.

    There I was taught about translations and mistranslations of the bible. One that I have never forgot was that the word virgin had a different meaning during biblical times, namely it meant a young girl who had just begun to have her period.

    Another was that Jesus was not born on Christmas.

    I always enjoyed religion class in high school because were taught to think critically. We were taught how and when the bible was written, that some books were left out and that the bible was not literal and there are numerous contradictions in the bible.

    My teacher also taught us about the end of the world bs so many people from time to time spout which was great as it prepared us for eight years later when 2000 came about.

    Every week the teacher would cut out some newspaper clipping of some nut job who predicted the end of the world or some massive earth quake. None of it ever happened.

    I did develop a taste for studying other religions. What is interesting is how many of the same themes occur in religions like the many gods who were crucified, died and rose from the dead. How during conquests many religions and cultures took in the myths of other people into their own.

    When. I was Catholic I had a hard time understanding someone telling me to give money and donate when the church had vast sums of wealth. Basements full of priceless art no human has laid eyes on in centuries. But I best donate.

  12. History of the Hittites is pretty interesting in relation to what y’all are saying about the syncretization of deities and their interactions with the other middle eastern cultures. A big piece of the pie that doesn’t really get covered.

  13. You mentioned they don’t make LPs anymore. They actually still do although no where near the numbers they used to make them. Seen them for sale in Target of all places and these were of new bands not new old stock of classic albums.

    • Yes, I have a mate who has recently closed her music shop, and Vinyl was definitely making a niche comeback prior to that. Unfortunately, she suffered from the death of bricks-n-mortar retail, and had to close. Lots of that everywhere, unfortunately…..

    • Yea, there’s been a HUGE resurgence in vinyl Album production and consumption (6.1 Million of them last year), and thankfully the majority of that is the high quality 180/200 gram LPs so the sound quality is as good as you would expect from a quality analog source. The other half of the resurgence is so called ‘hipsters’ buying ‘vinyls’ so they can tell their friends how cool they are.

  14. On the difference between Rangers/Special Forces: I read the first Blackhawk Down book, and it was easy to see the difference in training and employment, and even attitude, between the two units as they were forced to work together in Somalia over 20 years ago.
    I guess one is the scalpel, and one the axe; much similar to our Aussie SAS and Commandos.

    • I saw the rangers interviewed on dateline NBC. That is when I knew I was going to join the army.
      Left home Oct 1994.

  15. We got a chuckle out of the literal interpretation of Corinthians. This is the problem with Catholics and many, if not most, others who try to prove a point or explain a bible passage or principle.
    You will not be able to understand the bible unless you recognize figures of speech, they are used extensively throughout the bible. The wine does not turn into blood anymore than we have the physical mind of Christ in our body as it states “but we have the mind of Christ”.

    Consider :1Co 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For it says, “The two will become one flesh.” It isn’t to be taken literally, the two wouldn’t be putting on the same pair of socks in the morning on “their” feet.

    Jack you said a mouthful when you pointed out that the Catholic church churns out more agnostics than other organization today, or in history. They do this by teaching ridiculous literal interpretations of the bible and by exalting church authority over the bible.

    But all church denominations are inherently wrong by the simple reality that they are established, in violation of our constitution, by the government. The IRS pulls the strings and the denominations comply. For that reason do not go to any denominational beliefs to quote to prove this or that about anything in the bible. Church traditions are just traditions and nothing more.

    ” Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? ” Mt 15:2,3

    Note: all the denominations blabber on about the “trinity”. Show me that in the bible, it isn’t there. It was a fairy tale made up for political purposes. Why is it important to know this? Because : “Hos_4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge……”

    • The word being used in Hosea 4:6 for “knowledge” is ha-da’at. The word suggests more than the knowledge of facts. It also means: the mind, the reason and the opinion. Since the verse is a criticism of the priesthood, one might say that the priesthood should not simply tell people what the proper thing to do is but also provide the reasoning behind it. That way the people can reason things out for themselves rather than be too dependent upon the priesthood for their connection with God.

      There is a lot implied in this Bible chapter that is not apparent in the English translation. Since this is not a Bible study, I’m dropping it right there. People who study the Bible in English alone are missing out on a lot. Those who study the Bible should at least use a Strong’s Concordance if one can’t use a Hebrew dictionary. Studying the Bible with more than one translation is essential if one is not fluent in ancient languages.

      Certainly I am not fluent in Hebrew though I can use a Hebrew lexicon and struggle through the Hebrew and Aramaic text.


  16. Alex: I appreciate your well thought out response and find everything in it agreeable. But to add another perspective let’s not give the impression that one must have to know Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew to read and enjoy the bible. I don’t think you would disagree. And also it certainly isn’t necessary to believe that the bible is what it says it is, the Word of God, to read it. I spent much time reading books of various religions and never believed what they claimed they were, why can’t one spend a lot of time reading or even studying the bible without believing any of it?

    But I do dabble in Greek words via Strong’s concordance as you suggest, as well as comparing multiple translations, as you also suggest. The digital world has made this a breeze with such programs such as E-Sword. How can one who is fascinated with this book resist the temptation to not work this material when it is so easy to come by? This is stuff that has changed, and is changing world history and culture.

    The study of figures of speech in the bible is a treasure chest in itself, and then there are Orientalisms that open up the understanding to the ancient eastern way of thinking. And astronomy (not astrology) and present day archeological discoveries…. but you know all this.

  17. On ebook stuff, Nathan Barry has done a bunch of writing on his blog ( and released an e-learning product (“Authority”) about it.

    I did the small publisher route for my tech-book (which few of this audience would have any interest in) but no advance with equal profit sharing (50% pub, 50% authors) at the end. Publisher provided an editor who worked with us the whole time, and I think that anyone who is going to self publish needs to have an editor. It makes all the difference in the world in the quality of writing.