Episode-860- Listener Calls 3-16-12 — 53 Comments

  1. OPEN CARRY ? – (or concealed?) – How about our 2nd Amendment carry!
    See how they have turned a right- into a debate? We ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT !
    I am totally against aquiring concealed permits!!! I did it once and I’ll never do it again.
    Aside from being listed in a data base, the powers that be have now “set a precedent” that we MUST have ADDITIONAL permission to employ the 2nd Amendment. They can, have, do, and will “tweak” the permission at will. –(i.e. – they just tried to remove all firearms from public parks in an area of NC)
    (or make a criminal of you if not followed exactly as written. Then they can use our new criminal status to completely remove our right.)

    Case in point:
    Video by Penn& Teller- “B.S.”- (Coarse language warning)
    Primarily this portion in part 3, (1:50-3:45) says it all. But the entire episode is great.

    20,000 gun laws? Honest American citizens must jump through hoops , while the dirt bag criminal element roams freely amung us, ignoring any and all laws.
    Not me, I will NOT comply.

  2. 5% sales tax- sure would be nice.
    I would freely comply with that!
    …as long as it is ONLY 5% – period.
    Half of what the Good Lord is requesting sounds good to me.

    • If we truly want a small federal government then 3% should be plenty. 4% county/city, 3% state and 3% fed. The county/city should collect the tax take their share and forward the rest to the state and fed. That way the state and fed don’t have to go to all the trouble of ‘giving’ it back.

  3. My brother was going to school in Joplin mo during the tornado. Being from California, he had never seen a tornado. I remember him telling me that he lived on 26th street, and the storm leveled everything from 25th to first. These numbers might be a little off but that’s how close it was to where he was living. Needless to say a big scare and one reason I look into surviving disasters that might not be an issue where I live… What if I was visiting him?

    • I don’t play around with tornadoes — now. When I was growing up, my dad was the chief of the volunteer EMS, so when bad weather was forecast, the first thing we’d all do was go outside and look. (I grew up in the ’80s and there wasn’t a lot of warning then.) In 2002, however, we had a massive tornado outbreak in IN. I took shelter with my 5-week-old baby girl, but I figured it wasn’t going to be a big deal. Turns out, an EF-4 did major damage a half mile from my apartment in MULTIPLE directions (in Indianapolis, of all places), and it was that experience that taught be respect for severe weather. Phones went down, power went down. My husband worked on the north side of the city and couldn’t call me to verify that we were OK. A friend who worked a mile from my house needed 3 HOURS to get to me because of the chaos/destruction.

      I think some of us who deal with tornadoes get a little complacent. Don’t do that, folks. I’m not saying that we should be “scared”, but we certainly need to stay alert and more importantly, we need to respect the weather.

      • My wife and I spent that day in St. Francis South Campus – she was in labor! We were the only ones in L&D with two nurses. They tried to make me leave her alone and go downstairs to safety. I explained to them that I would be in her room with her, and that if they wanted me down there that they needed to call security to take me there.

        • A lot of us Hoosiers have war stories from that day. It’ll go down in history much like the Henryville tornadoes from 10 days ago. I credit the Sept. 2002 tornadoes for pointing me in a preparedness direction. It’s unnerving to go through a situation like that seeing how close you were to your very own SHTF scenario. Forget solar flares, nuclear war, or an asteroid landing in my backyard. It’s tornadoes, winter storms, illness, and job loss that are at the top of my short list of reasons we prepare. It can happen to any of us, folks, no matter how immune we think we might be.

    • Thanks for playing my call Jack. Forgot to mention that I’ve been listening since episode 23 (will admit I never got around to going back and listening to 1-22…maybe your next vacation). Agree on your point about a second location. Been on the list for a while, but moving to the top now. After seeing what little was left and how many people needed someplace to go (most ended up in local apartments or at churches – it was”only” and F3 so no FEMA help 😉 we are in the market for a few acres in the Daniel Boone national forest. Lots of pretty property down there, only 90 minutes away so we’ll use it for recreation and have a second place to live if we ever need it.

  4. Jack, great show as usual.

    I was hoping that Darby Simpson would be one of the “experts” to whom you’d defer questions like today’s “laying hen retirement” debate. I’ll keep his answer in mind too because although we’re starting chicks in the spring this first year, I can implement his plan in future years. Makes great sense, and I wish I’d thought of the “3 different breeds for 3 different years” idea. Sometimes we need these folks to protect us from our own inexperience! 🙂

    Thanks again!

    • Sarah,

      Thanks for the kind words. One thing I should have mentioned that escaped me during my reply was that laying hens will lay past three years. I’ve read comments from folks that say they have hens 5+ years old who are still laying. And if they get the majority of their feed from grazing and ranging, then the economics of keeping them longer “might” work. That being said, hens do have a set amount of eggs they can lay and the majority of those eggs come in the first three laying seasons (maybe, maybe four). I’ve personally experienced a deep drop in egg production in year three to a point where the eggs produced didn’t justify the grain and labor involved. But my perspective is from a pure business standpoint. Older hens do tend to become pets, and folks often times have a hard time turning them into chicken and noodles. But it can’t be disputed that 18 months is way to young, and the best efficiency comes in the first 24-36 months of life.

      Thanks again to Jack for allowing me to be a part of the show!

  5. Well it’s been a year listening to you and to the Revolution is You theme song and it still gets me teared up. It’s so very moving.

    To sail on a ship / boat to me would be homesteading at sea. There are several cultures around the world that eat and earn a living off the sea. To study or live with those cultures would be a fantastic experience. I may have to put that on my bucket list.

    Truly the best thing one can do is learn about the land in which they live. How those that came before us managed to do it. That would apply to where ever you live.

    Wow great explanation on getting the 3 different breeds of chickens. Had heard it before but just was never put a cross well. It sounded way to complicated. He really simplified it and made it understandable. I can now say well duh that makes it easy. That’s what an expert can do for you. Thanks

  6. Jack,
    I keep waiting for you to end a by saying, “Tell me that wasn’t worth 20 cents”.

    This would have been a great episode to do so! I really liked the integrated panel.

    • Each show is loaded with hundreds of dollars of information. I attended a two day grazing school about 1-1/2 years ago with a guy named Cody Holmes out of MO. At the end of the class, I told him that the information he provided was worth 20X what I paid ($150). There were numerous single nuggets of information he gave us that have saved me $150 worth of mistakes countless times. The same can be said of the podcast. I would pay $50 a year just to help keep Jack employed and doing it full time, let alone the discounts from the MSB. Great comment Ryan!

      • Im an asshole and already started drinking after I posted those last two comments. I was on my way home from work, thinking about TSP and how I wanna give Jack some $$. Im an asshole cause I’m to lazy to get a paypal account. … Jack do you accept money orders?

        • @Pete I think you should first get home safe, pour one more after you are safe, put away the internet and enjoy the stars or some good music and go to bed. If you still want to join in the AM click on members and you will see I take paypal, cash, check, silver, money orders or even barter. There is a form for those that don’t want to use paypal to pay by mail. I don’t take credit cards due to INTEGRITY. I say no cards so taking them would be really f’d-up in my view. If you choose to found your paypal with a credit card it isn’t by my choice, know what I mean.

          BTW I myself am having some Johnnie Walker Double Black so forgive my directness in other responses to you.

  7. For the traveler:

    Listening to this the things that sprang to mind is that you should aim to become a ‘tinker’, but a modern one. So the goal would be to acquire some high value portable skills, related to homesteading, maybe needing some small portable tools, such as: welding, well drilling, fence mending, alternative home construction, energy production systems (electrical to heat), permaculture design, or aquaculture.

    Before even moving into a new area you ‘advertise’ on the internet and find someone (or many someones) in the area who need your skills, and trade them for anything from a place to park your truck and some cash to a share in the crops for the next couple of years.

    If you took on ‘longer’ projects (building a house/outbuilding, establishing an aquaponics system) you could even throw in some ‘income’ (money or trade goods) from teaching interested locals the skills involved.

    The pluses to this method: even if things are crappy, you’re welcomed into the area (during the depression, they drove traveling job seekers out of communities); you can control how long you stay in a place by the projects agreed to; you can ‘squat’ for longer periods if needed or settle in if you find a place/people you like; you have access to land (not much space to be a true ‘hunter gatherer’ where you don’t have to deal with the ‘owner’ at some point).


    • kind of hurried that response, but i think you get the idea. i’m thinking/talking about more ‘full blown depression’, in which case REPAIR of valuable equipment (tractors, housing, wells..) and creation of food and money production systems will still be needed (and people will ‘pay’).

      the basis for this was that people looked forward to the ‘tinker’ entering their community, and as a nomad, you want to welcomed by the communities you visit and pass through, not hunted or shunned. =)

      in my case, i need to work on my people skills and try to become more charming. when money is no longer available to act as a mediator between people, people skills are going to become critical.

  8. The guy talking about Solar Thermal doesn’t have a clue! It would be good Jack if you had an “expert” on Solar Thermal space heating.

    • @Reno Robb, seriously you come off quite full of yourself. Frankly Steve Harris has forgotten more about solar thermal then you will ever know.

      • Yep but if someone wants to make a total ass out of themselves who am I to stop them. If the problem becomes chronic there is always the ban hammer.

  9. Steven Harris was awesome again. That guy knows so much it scares me.

  10. Hello Jack, this was a great ep.

    I had no idea you were a Glenn Beck fan. kinda disappointed. They’re all shills. Sure you had face to face and what not. Just like Napolitano getting canned cause he said something “real”. it comes down to good cop/bad cop @ the end of the day. They’re all cops[nothing wrong with cops they have their purpose] just making an example.

    I know you addressed the people who don’t fall into the left/right paradigm, I’m one of them and asking us to be respectful. Really rubs me the wrong way. I said my piece and thanks for that 😀

    Great advice today thank you have a great weekend!

    • @Pete, first Glenn is no shill if he was he would still be kissing ass on Fox and not spending his own money to do GBTV completely on his own. I think you have no idea the sacrifice and the risk that it takes to do what he has done. Given I have done the same thing I respect the shit out of him for it.

      Glenn and I disagree on about 20-30% of things but we agree on a solid 70 and as I said he is asking the same questions now that led me where I am. I am going to bet you were not always of the opinion you are? I bet at one time you thought a lot more like a conventional conservative or liberal.

      Arrogance and infighting are the two biggest enemies to the libertarian movement.

      My hope is long term Glenn will move more and more to the libertarian end of the spectrum, but even if he doesn’t he knows why he believes what he believes and he has integrity. I can disagree vehemently with a person but totally respect them when that is the case.

      I also don’t associate with anyone just to further my show. I told Nat Geo to “go f themselves” and I used the full four letter word, more than once. Why? No integrity. I can work with those I have some disagreement with, I won’t associate with people for even one second who lack integrity.

  11. oh I said that wrong.

    I understand you wanting us to be respectful. I have no reason not to be.

    associating with Beck. obviously your business and helps you get more listeners. all the better. … Optimism here I know. … I’ve dealt with many die hard Beck followers the host not the band lol. those fox/msm/altM have been so mind fucked its gonna take some work. … Im projecting here and I apologize. thats what rubs me the wrong way. not you asking everyone to be respectful.

      • Thanks for all the replies Jack.

        I’ll refrain from posting until the ‘morrow.

        No I haven’t taken that leap yet. as you can remember from previous questions and for the fact I’m still a slave 🙁 😀

        my bad as well I know you have integrity. You wouldn’t go somewhere unless it meant smth to you, TSP and it’s listeners. … foot in mouth. I said this before drinking. no excuses. … I have a general skepticism of talking heads and what not. Whenever someone I like appears with them. I’m torn

        I’m not a lush only had a couple . What I
        was trying to say and it wasn’t an affront to your integrity by appearing on his show, I may not like Beck, I realize his reach and how many more people you can reach by appearing on his show. I wasn’t calling you out at all.

        I’m not your business manager so I’ll kindly fuck off 😀

        nice choice on JW!
        ever seen this. fairly old.
        Johnnie Walker – The Man Who Walked Around the World

        Im drinking Crown Royal Black.


  12. Thanks Darby!

    I was afraid our ISA Browns were going to start becoming a burden this year. Glad to hear they have at least another year in them. They really have become pets, greeting us in the driveway every afternoon. They will most likely be allowed overstay their worth given their personalities, I’m just glad its not as long as I originally feared.

    -Justin in NH

    • Justin, you are most welcome! Two good laying seasons is pretty much a given, with a decent third year to be expected. Going a fourth is usually not very productive unless they get most of their intake on their own, which should be the goal from thr outset anyhow. And you can monitor your feed to egg conversion pretty easily to decide when it’s “time”. If this will be their third year, it would be a great time to start a three year rotation plan with a different breed. The ISA Browns are good I have been told but don’t be afraid to experiment with a new breed.

      Good luck!

  13. The modern day hunter-gatherer question really was unique. First of all sorry for your loss. I think the most important thing will

  14. Awesome show once again with some pretty unique questions.

    I really like your panel selection and Darby is one of my favorite all-time guests. I have listened to his interview several times and have visited his website. There is a lot of great information there.

    In regards to the open carry question, I would like to offer another perspective and consideration. I am a police officer who supports both open and concealed carry of firearms. With that in mind, I ask everyone who does open carry to seriously consider your holster and belt set-up. Open carry has many risks associated with it and there are several officers shot every year with their own gun because the offender took it off their belt/out of their holster. Don’t go cheap! Invest in a quality retention holster and a quality belt. A $25.00 Fobus holster on a $15.00 belt is not enough.

    Concealed carry does give you more leeway in this department. In fact I use a $20.00 belly band most of the time for concealed carry as it is confortable to me and works with most of my clothing options, but that’s me.

    Also, whether concealed carry or open carry, but especially open carry, please learn some viable weapon retention options for both in the holster and out of it.

    I am really pumped for show #1,000! It is gonna be awesome.

  15. Most libertarians I know believe in a strong national defense, and advocate moving our troops from bases abroad onto our borders, air space, and coastline. This is contradictory to claiming libertarians believe if we were non-interventionist we would not need a military.

    I think if we watch the troops that supported Ron Paul in their inspirational march in D.C. it would solidify the great respect and admiration for the military many libertarians share.

    We support the troops, we just don’t support undeclared endless pre-emptive wars. Declare war through congress, win it, and get out.

  16. Nice to see Ron at 5:51. I remember your last interview with him last year, I think it was March. And he started off by saying “I’d like to thank Dow Chemical or Monsanto’…”, I forget now.

    I was outside during my annual cook/spring celebration where I cook a meal on my Woodgas XL. And for some reason I just stopped what I was doing and just listened on that spring day.

  17. I’m enjoying the “panel of experts” – good stuff. Steven Harris rocks.

    Have already listened to the episode twice. Lots of information.

  18. In regards to Open/Concealed Carry:

    I live in a State where we do not have “open or concealed” we just have a Carry Permit–meaning either. While overall, I prefer Concealed carry, I think it is VITAL to have open carry for the reasons Jack mentioned about “Brandishing.”

    Depending on where you are and the mentality of Law enforcement or the public, you can get into major trouble if you simply move in the wrong way and someone happens to view your firearm. Get a person with an agenda and a police officer who isn’t a supporter of citizens’ rights, and you can wind up with a major hassle or legal trouble.

    So, I hope everyone can get universal carry laws passed in your States.

    • @ KAM

      “We the people” ALREADY HAVE the RIGHT to carry.
      States cannot trump what is in the US Constitution!-
      Any more than they can put duct tape over our mouths, or tell us when, where or how to worship (or not worship)- etc. , on a State by State basis.

      Don’t fall for their trickery- parcing of words- spin – or just plain BS.

      Merriam-Webster Defines of BRANDISH as:
      transitive verb
      1: to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
      2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner

      …If I bend over and a weapon is seen, I am not brandishing.
      -however, I’m absolutely sure the “legal” definition is different for each and every circumstance, or case, as the “lawmakers” see fit.

      They are usurping the Constitution on a daily basis to further control us.

      For my part, I will follow the Constitution, and its ammendments as written.
      – until such time the proper methods are used to change It and its ammendments.
      Even if all are removed, I will do what I must to defend myself and my family. And I will still follow the Laws of God over the laws of man every day of the week.

      • @TrekFanDan,

        I didn’t say that we do not have a right to carry. I agree that we do. However, this right is not acknowledged by all States–or you can think of it as those States violating our rights if you wish.

        I agree with you this “Brandishing” stuff is total nonsense. It is codified harassment in most cases, and in my view in the same league as police claiming “resisting arrest” in a case where no arrest was warranted. It is total BS.

        All I was saying is that I hope that States create laws that PROTECT our rights and PROTECT us from these methods of harassment.

        In terms of the US Constitution–as you note, the 2nd Amendment (or 1st, 3rd, etc) does not PROVIDE us rights, and there is some debate on whether the 2nd Amendment applies to the States (incorporation). Strictly and historically it does not, but in principle, it must, because the only reason we tolerate (from a libertarian perspective) government is so that it Protects our rights. So, it would make zero sense to establish governments that tolerates one level of government violating our rights while another is banned from it.

        I am of the same mind in terms of self-defense (and of my family), and to an extent others. No law can EVER, EVER be rightfully made that requires me to become a victim, and thus any law that would prevent me from defending myself (family) from direct harm (violence) is meaningless to me, and I will ignore it. If I allowed a law to prevent me from DIRECTLY defending myself or my family, I have failed in my responsibility as a human.

        Why this and not ALL inherent rights? Well, I can’t “fix” that. I can walk away from a protest and live to fight another day. Not saying one SHOULD or MUST tolerate ANY violation of their rights, but being put in a jail-cell at gunpoint is the surest way to lose a whole lot of liberty really quick.

        So, don’t get me wrong–we’re on the same page.

      • @ KAM

        You and I agree on most topics- and for the most part on this issue.
        I think you and I may differ here…
        -you said;
        “So, I hope everyone can get universal carry laws passed in your States.”
        perhaps I misunderstood… did you mean “another” source of “permission” , or reinforcement of the rights already granted to us?- I’m with you if it’s reinforcement.
        Otherwise we just disagree on the extra permission issue.

        I was just tryin to make the point that we’ve all been “tricked” into the whole “additional” permit- or permission.

        Those States that give, – can take away.
        And by putting the Constitution in the ” background ” – they get away with whatever they want, regardless of what the original document says.
        For my part – the line has been drawn. (see my post at the top of the comment section)- just viocing my own opinion- with malice toward none =-).

        • @TrekFanDan,

          I don’t think we have a disagreement here. We both seem to understand that the right to bear arms is one we are born with, not one that is granted to us by government of any sort. The problem is, they don’t seem to understand that, OR they don’t believe it is as absolute as we do.

          The fact is, various States (and other Nations) violate this right, and/or limit it. I’m not saying this is legitimate, but it is reality. There are people sitting in jail in our very country for violating these laws.

          I tolerate having to obtain a carry license, much in the way I tolerate having to get a building permit–they are fundamentally no different than taxes, until they turn it into a refusal. My State is a “Shall issue” State, so that’s not an issue.

          Practically speaking–if I took a hard line in resisting every violation of my fundamental rights, I would be doing nothing but fighting that and likely be in jail. I’d prefer to avoid that.

  19. @Jack, I’m at the beginning of the episode, my fear is that you are going to get too big. I mean I’m glad for you, but it seams like what some of my old freinds did, you’re going to upgrade friends, (know what I mean)? You and this community are a part of my life now.

    Mesquite TX

    • @Jessie may be you need to start listening to my business podcast at Man you sound like a little kid worried that the new baby sister mom is about to have is gonna make mom and dad love you less. TSP is my community and my family. I don’t believe in “upgrading friends”, I am actually mildly offended to have it implied here, but I will get over it. LOL

      • Yes, I will start listening to that business podcast. Didn’t mean to offend, but I love my community.

  20. @Jack,

    In regards to starting a business in the area of “Prepping.” I think your advice is spot-on, which judging from what I’ve seen the opposite of what is going on.

    It seems like half the preppers/survivalists out there think “I can make a living at this.” On one hand–many sources=competition=good, but on the other hand, this is looking a lot like a Bubble inflating.

    I was at dinner last night with a group of friends and we were talking about the apparent “boom” in survival related stuff. I said that my personal opinion is that this is the last area I’d want to get into TODAY. The reason is that I think we’re approaching the crest of this 2012 hype and the election and all that. Jumping on at or near the peak is a bad idea.

    Jack, you’ve already talked about this mirroring Y2K in a lot of ways (but with less media hype perhaps). These crumby shows like Doomsday “X” is a reflection of that–with low-grade, fake-documentary/reality shows jumping in as well. These idiots are doing a lot to create this bubble/bust sort of thing.

    I think this will ultimately harm the message of the REAL modern survival message (not this nonsensical hype). Unfortunately, the dabbler or hype-prone people seem unlikely to draw back and just go onto the next knee-jerking opportunity.

    So, great advice for this fellow, but also a good warning to buyers out there who are going to be dealing with a lot of “experts” out there. I recently visited a storefront business for “Preppers.” I wanted to see what sort of people they were. I spent about 45 minutes in the store browsing, and witnessed near brow-beating of a 60ish couple who seemed to have the prepper-bug put in their ear. It really made me sort of cringe.

    Even worse than pushing some product that people probably have no idea how to use or how to fit into any sort of cohesive plan is their “Training.” Maybe these guys have some credentials or experience that would make their training valuable, but I get REALLY wary of some joker designating themselves an “expert” at survival and offering classes.

    I know this veered off the subject of starting a business, but this whole larger Prepper-business bubble/hype is not only a business issue, but a potential “danger” for honest people who have been caught up in the hype. I just really don’t want to see a repeat of Y2K.

    I wish more people would find their way to something like TSP that lays out principles and a broader reason for being a modern survivalist rather than just following some hype-fueled leech.

  21. Kydex holsters are good because there are so many permutations (paddle, IWB). I can’t find the kinds of holsters I prefer for my fairly common items.

    The downside is the ease of doing this type of work (i.e. your competition).

    But, considering how many permutations there are creates a lot of niches to fill (I’d be fine having affordable kydex sheaths for my knives, multitools, and everything). So, I’d suggest keeping your day job, getting into it with the minimal cost (don’t go nuts on the equipment, as with firearms focus on the skills) and then feel out the market. Finding those demand niches with minimal cost marketing and advertising may be key. Use the opportunity to work on finding your next even better entrepreneurial idea. Again, keep your day job, or find a different one in the process.

  22. This story ties into recent topics Jack talked about.

    –In my opinion, regardless of the details of what the reporters did or did not do, the verbage the officer used is totally unacceptable- but is becoming more and more typical.
    (title) Chicago Cops Arrest Local Journalists: ‘Your First Amendment Rights Can Be Terminated’

    The two (reporters) were covering the fatal shooting of a six-year old girl and, though they were already across the street, the officer demanded they go another street over.
    “F*** news affairs, I don’t care about news affairs. Forget news affairs,” he said.
    When the journalists spoke to their rights, the officer replied,
    “Your first amendment rights can be terminated, if you’re creating a scene, or whatever. Your first amendment rights have limitations.”
    After the journalists responded, “how have we created a scene? This is what we do for a living,” the officer replied, “Your presence is creating a scene.”

    —“…Your first amendment rights have limitations.”–“…Terminated”-??
    I can only assume the officer meant the old saying, ‘you can’t yell fire in a crowded theatre’.
    Yes, you “can”, but you shouldn’t, and if you do, you should absolutely be held accountable for whatever happens by doing so.
    I am done with the “Future Crimes” mentality of our governing bodies.

  23. To the modern hunter-gather / future sailor:

    Cruising Sailors are some of the most self reliant people I’ve met. My two favorite books are “The Self Sufficient Sailor” by Lin and Larry Pardy and “This Old Boat” by Don Casey.

  24. If your checking out the KelTec pistols go for the PF-9 and not the .380 P-3AT, have them both. Not that the P-3AT is a bad pistol but the PF-9 is only slightly larger (it does fill a larger pocket more). Keep the mag finger extension off, add the upgrade return spring rod and the less expensive and more powerful ammo is the cat’s meow.

    Glad to see a supporter of open carry – I live in an OC state and don’t bother with CC – first target concern is overblown, the OC in itself is a deterrent criminals are predators, predators like soft easy targets OC is NOT a soft target.

  25. Hey Jack I would like to recommend the Kel-tec PF9. Over the .380 Nothing really wrong with the .380 just it cost more to shoot. But you already have that Bersa .380. So you already have the ammo and probably dies. I have also thought about getting a Kel-tec PF9 for me I have seen them for $230.

    One thing I wish I could go back in time is change is the buying my Glock 27. I bought into the BS that .40 S&W “is so much better” than 9mm. at the time the .40 was only a 1$ per 100. So i was thinking no biggie. I should have listened to my inter voice. I like 9mm cheap to shoot, placement is more important than having a ” .46 acp ”

    So this may be for others to think about and consider.