Episode-1582- Why Blind Patriotism is a Greater Danger than State Oppression — 74 Comments

  1. Thanks for having the balls to have this conversation. The worst evils in history were largely carried out by good men who were just following orders.

  2. Excellent episode once again Jack. Not offended at all. Should I worried?

    “If you’re not offended by something on The Survival Podcast…

    you might be an Anarchist…”

  3. Hi Jack,
    My comment on todays show has to do with our duty as citizens.
    It is my opinion that as citizens we have a responsibility to understand what our country does. We have access to the truth if we really want to know, and if we are too lazy to be diligent in our duty to be citizens, and if we blindly support our governments criminal actions as a result, then we have been negligent in our duty as citizens and that is where the blame really lies.
    That being said, if a citizen who has the responsibility to be informed, joins the military, they also have the responsibility to know what our government is likely to do with their service. If they join the military knowing they very well may be put in a position to go to war under false pretense, then they need to take responsibility for their decision to do so.
    As a country, we have been “lied into war” as you put it too many times for any of us be able to deny our responsibility as citizens. The millions of casualties perpetrated in the wars since WWII are on us, all of us, and we should feel shame and disgust.

  4. I had to head over to facebook and read through the flag “shit storm” comments. I really wonder if those folks actually listen to tsp. The cognitive dissonance on display was painful. Someone actually managed the stretch to bring marijuana and abortion into the debate. Dang, we sure have a long way to go.

    I will throw my hat in the ring as well. I spent 4 years of my life in uniform in the Persian Gulf and believe the upside down flag is not offensive under the current circumstances.

  5. Blind patriotism is where we get this ‘Murica! Hell yeah!’ attitude from. I’ve been spending years trying to convince people from other countries that not everyone in America has that belief system… to usually failed results. We’ve been fat, thick headed bullies for so long most everyone else on planet Earth now sees us all as that. It’s also why so many people are now against American exceptionalism. It’s hard to believe, but there was a time when American exceptionalism stood for hard work, defense of liberty, and a can-do spirit. Now it stands for ‘do as we say or we send in B2 bombers to do a fly-over of your capitol city.’ Somehow I get the feeling that we all lose out when we adopt that attitude.

    It’s incredibly frustrating being between two extremes… that of blindly patriotic Americans who think that criticizing your government is equal to terrorism, and people from outside the U.S. who see all of us as dangerous wackos with a chip on our shoulder. And in the middle us rational, freedom loving people are getting squeezed.

    • Ethan; for us ‘durned furriners’ what you describe can indeed be the default setting- but we usually (if we are not complete a’holes, or deep into an argument at the time and all het up.) put in a caveat-It’s your government and some of your people who support them doing stupid things we don’t agree with.
      The judgemental moralizing we sometimes cop(especially on internet forums)about “godless socialists” does get a bit wearing at times so it’s easy to drop into mindless “Yeah, well YOUSE GUYS do….x and y” lol.
      That never ends well….

      • Oh, and all countries suffer from mindless patriotism and jingoism- Mine included.
        You have the ‘Murica! crowd.

        We have the ‘STRAYA! mob….. 😀

      • I firmly believe now that that’s what globalization is really all about. Going ‘global’ with everything means uniting all of the really stupid people on planet Earth into one big dumb organization. Strength in numbers, right? Good ideas may be hard to come by, but really dumb ones are universal.

        But thanks for understanding and knowing that not all of us Americans are out of shape psychopaths addicted to MSG and texting. I’ll also accept the idea that not everyone in Australia is a living clone of Crocodile Dundee.

        • If we can solve every problem with decentralization, then what can we do with centralization?

          Cause them.

          So why would we, well because WE are led by psychopaths that want more, more and more. They have now scored umteen billion on the game, grown bored with it and want a new game to play. The have centralized every major system in ever major nation, so what can they do next but attempt global centralization?

          It really is that simple.


    OK, I have heard a lot of people say there were no wmd’s in Iraq. It was said on a daily basis when Bush was the dictator in charge of our country. Now, I am in no way suggesting we should have went to war in Iraq, but if the CIA bought nerve gas, chemical weapons and rockets in Iraq; there were in fact wmds in Iraq. I just want to point this out for accuracy sake…

  7. I happened to be listening to Jackson Browne’s awesome “Lives in the Balance” album when I downloaded today’s podcast. Here is another gem from the album:

    “For America”

    Music Video:

    As if I really didn’t understand
    That I was just another part of their plan
    I went off looking for the promise
    Believing in the Motherland
    And from the comfort of a dreamer’s bed
    And the safety of my own head
    I went on speaking of the future
    While other people fought and bled
    The kid I was when I first left home
    Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own
    But the freedom that he found wasn’t quite as sweet
    When the truth was known
    I have prayed for America
    I was made for America
    It’s in my blood and in my bones
    By the dawn’s early light
    By all I know is right
    We’re going to reap what we have sown

    As if freedom was a question of might
    As if loyalty was black and white
    You hear people say it all the time-
    “My country wrong or right”
    I want to know what that’s got to do
    With what it takes to find out what’s true
    With everyone from the President on down
    Trying to keep it from you

    The thing I wonder about the Dads and Moms
    Who send their sons to the Vietnams
    Will they really think their way of life
    Has been protected as the next war comes?
    I have prayed for America
    I was made for America
    Her shining dream plays in my mind
    By the rockets red glare
    A generation’s blank stare
    We better wake her up this time

    The kid I was when I first left home
    Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own
    But the freedom that he found wasn’t quite as sweet
    When the truth was known
    I have prayed for America
    I was made for America
    I can’t let go till she comes around
    Until the land of the free
    Is awake and can see
    And until her conscience has been found

  8. apology accepted, you offered an apology in the beginning of this episode. i lost alot of men in the desert a few years back and i will never forget to believe in america. you still have me as a listener, but i am teetering jack…

    • So the truth offends you? Teetering? Why what did I say that was untrue, give me one thing I said that was factually inaccurate today.

      Also what did I say that would be taken as to “not believe in America”, I mean did you listen or just let it play and hear the parts you though meant what they did not?

      You lost men in the desert and for that reason you are angry that I say we should not have gone there?

      Would it not make more sense for you to be angry at the people that told the lies that sent your men there in the fist place.

      Do you really want to make the case that in spite of the sacrifices men like you made, that everything in the middle east isn’t worse then before we got involved?

      I lost friends before MOST soldiers did in all of this by the way. I was managing the North East region at this time. ONE company I had as a customer lost 19 people on 911. I was all in on going to get vengeance, I was all in on going to war to fight them over there so we didn’t have to fight them here. However I also continued to learn, I now feel lied to by our government, those of you that served in this mess should be very angry but not at me for speaking the truth. You should be mad at the fucking liars that sent this nation into a war that they never planned on “winning”. The people that used you and your men. The people that are not bothered by their loss.

      The truth is often hard to hear, but we should not be afraid to hear it or SPEAK IT. Frankly if I was unwilling to speak these truths that should bother you a lot more.

  9. At min 12 of this podcast, Jack says, “If you’re paying taxes, you’re (…) as culpable (…) as the person who wears the uniform (soldier).”
    He says this in the context of being culpable for the death of people our military kills.
    This is like saying I am as culpable for police brutality (b/c I pay into the system that pays the police) as the police officers.
    This is not correct, because I do not have a choice to pay my taxes, whereas the military is voluntary.
    Jack, do you take responsibility for what you said (do you believe it?), or are you pandering to your military listeners, or is there another reason you would say this?

    • No that isn’t what I said I never said as culpable I said you were also culpable. And we all are.

      Every American is at least in some way culpable as to what is done in our name especially if we don’t do anything to stop it.

      It is pretty ironic that some of the elitist anarchists/minarchists/libertarians blame our brave men and women for where and how they served but then fill their tank with the oil those wars keep cheap is it not?

      It is funny how every one wants to say “we” when the context is positive, yet so quick to run from it when it is used for something negative.

      We as Americans as a people all have innocent blood on our hands. We are not individually responsible but NEITHER are most soldiers. This is actually VERY EASY to understand unless you simply don’t want to.

      • from above, Jack writes:
        No that isn’t what I said I never said as culpable I said you were also culpable. And we all are.
        Not true: Minute 12:25, “as culpable”
        I agree that we are all somewhat culpable, and I think Jack is helping many people understand that blind patriotism is foolish and can be used for good or evil by those in power.

        • Again you take it out of context, full quote, “you are as culpable in the word we, and try to remember that”.

          The context is when I say we, I mean US, the people of this nation.

          So when I say “we have murdered children” you are as culpable as the solider who never personally harmed a child. And you are!

          Are you as culpable as the guy that pushed the button to launch a cruise missile he knew was targeting a wedding? No, of course not.

          But you are part of we, I defy you to prove you are not, I defy you to demonstrate that you don’t do anything other than what you drop dead have to that supports the state.

          Do you have power? If so you support the state and benefit from our use of force.

          I am not saying you should not, I am saying the guy that did his best, never broke his word, etc in the military is no more responsible for his governments actions then you are. IT is not that you are both equally guilty more that you are closer to being equally innocent, as innocent as WE can be in what is done in OUR NAME.

          Again this is simple to understand unless you don’t want to.

    • Oh and if you claim I pander to anyone you clearly have not been paying attention, AT ALL to what goes on around here.

    • And I listened and you not only quoted me wrong but FULLY inaccurately. I said you “are contributing to the same system”, I made not a single statement of equivalency.

      I would not as that is not even accurate to all that served. The arrogant elitist assholes I have met that shit on my service tend to now understand what I did. I killed no one, I bombed no one, I mostly built roads and schools.

      The elitist assholes when confronted with this fact then point out that I still “served the military power machine”, my point is SO DO YOU EVERY DAY. We all do, we are all trapped at various levels.

    • I was thinking the same thing. Saying i’m responsible for the atrocities of the war machine because I pay taxes, is like saying I’m responsible for what a thief does with my money after he steals it from me.

      I would not voluntarily pay for the majority of government services, yet my labor is extracted before I even receive my check.

      I don’t personally care if people blame individual soldiers because they are responsible for pulling triggers, but I don’t personally attack soldiers because it really creates more divide then anything. I just ask a lot of questions… How exactly are you defending freedom? Who in the middle east is threatening my life, liberty, or property? Is there an order that you wouldn’t obey? Would you take my gun if your CO ordered you to? Has DC stolen more freedoms than the boogie man across the ocean?

      • But again that isn’t what I said, I said you CONTRIBUTE to the same system and you do, try to logically prove that you don’t.

        And if you say you have no choice, I bet if we are honest we can both find a dozen things we CHOSE TO DO that we don’t absolutely have to do that supports “the system”.

        Do you want to lay a bet down on that?

      • And do you know how many soldiers NEVER pulled a trigger at all on another human being?

        Or how many of them never did so except against people we would both agree are bad guys?

        Or how many pulled triggers on both bad guys and others who simply say themselves as fighting for their own nation but never harmed a non combatant?

        But many want to create an equivalency among all soldiers.

        How about how many soldiers saved lives of people from other nations?

        As to this question, “Would you take my gun if your CO ordered you to?” NO!


        1. I am an oathkeeper
        2. I am also an oath keeper
        3. I was trained not to obey illegal or immoral orders

        But most who never served don’t understand two and don’t know three, perhaps you do get #1, in that one I am speaking of the organization I am a founding member of.

        The two sides here so opposed to each other tend to agree more than they disagree but just have there own heads too far up their own asses to try to understand the other side. Of course the thieves you speak of in DC have it planned that way.

      • Dude those soldier questions weren’t directed to you. I know you stand on solid ground. I enjoyed the episode.

      • I agree with Brett. I was born in Illinois, but I am not responsable for what the US government does. I have arranged my finances so that I legally no longer pay any taxes to the US government. I am ashamed of ever being in the US Air Force.

        • What do you put in the tank of your vehicle, what powers the lights in your home, what do you drive your car on. Check your ego.

        • My seldom used car uses Venezualian oil and my electricity comes from non-US hydroelectric. I walk most places or use the useful mass transit system. Without a draft, soldering is for the uninspired, the naive, the uneducated, those wanting a short cut to heroism or the budding psychopath. Soldiers have no excuses for breaking the non-aggression principle you speak about. I’m done. Bye.

        • So you support another State, one that is more socialist and more willing to trample on the rights of its own people, however far less likely to oppress the rights of anyone beyond their borders. Yea, freedom ranger my ass!

        • “I have arranged my finances so that I legally no longer pay any taxes to the US government.”

          How on God’s green earth have you done that?

        • He is an expat living in the socialist State of Venezuela so he now supports that dictatorship instead of our own.

      • @Brett, fair enough but I noticed you didn’t answer this,

        “And if you say you have no choice, I bet if we are honest we can both find a dozen things we CHOSE TO DO that we don’t absolutely have to do that supports “the system”.

        Do you want to lay a bet down on that?”

        Again WE as Americans are all responsible in some way for what our nation does. When I put it that way, you don’t like it, you don’t want it to be true, etc. You try to find a way around it, etc.

        Yep, same thing for say 98% of US Service members. Sure some abuse the power they have, SOMEONE KNOWS THE TARGET IS A WEDDING, etc.

        Most don’t, when they find out, when they come to terms with it, many take their own lives. They are no less a victim then you are of the same system.

        They are recruited as boys and girls too, we now have far more of our lives to look back and reflect on. Most join at 17, even if they don’t go until they are 18. THINK ABOUT THAT.

        It isn’t like taking a job at McDonalds, you can’t just quit. When you show up you also abuse no one, you are yourself abused for weeks on end, programmed into a system, then sent somewhere.

        Again those that were like “fuck that shit” when they were 17 tend to think they were really ahead of the 17 year old that went into service at the same age, they were not, not even close.

        The real sin of our modern oligarchy is they take the most noble from us, condition them to obey orders, use them for ill, pay lip service to them and then cast them aside as trash when they are no longer useful.

  10. Jack, I appreciate your bringing up today’s subject. In some aspects reminded me of the story that was read to me early in life “The Emperor Has No Clothes”. Nice podcast!

  11. I haven’t finished the podcast yet but man, that story about your family was moving. I could hear it in your voice what it means to you.

  12. Jack, you tell us about moving from GOP to LP to libertarian to minarchist to anarchist. You also talk about moving from naive flag waving teenage soldier to “ranger school” or something to truck soldier to not wanting to re-enlist to civilian without a cause to an entry level job to better jobs to super salesman to company owner to podcaster. Today you tell about being a young flag waving enlistee then being a soldier then seeing through your military brainwashing then recognizing how your government lies to you and then you make the case to support the troops but not the psychopaths running the whole mess. I am going to have a big smile on my face when you heal enough to take your next step in your maturity. I can write this, because I’m a vet also and know the progression to healing.

  13. ‘Fundamentalism is the philosophy of the powerless, the conquered, the displaced and the dispossessed. Its spawning ground is the wreckage of political and military defeat.. in.. despererate times, the vanquished race would perish without a doctrine that restored hope and pride..fundamentalism ascends from the.. landscape of despair and possesses the same tremendous and potent appeal.

    What exactly is this despair? It is the despair of freedom. The disclocation and emasculation experienced by the individual cut free from the familiar and comforting structures of the tribe and the clan, the village and the family.

    The fundamentalist (or, more accurately, the individual who comes to embrace fundamentalism) cannot stand freedom. He cannot find his way into the future, so he retreats to the part. He returns in imagination to the glory days of his race and seeks to reconstitute both them and himself in their purer, more virtuos light.

    There is no such thing as fundamentalist art. This does not mean that the fundamentalist is not creative. Rather, his creativity is inverted. He creates destruction. Even the structures he build, his schools and networks of organization, are dedicated to annihilation, of his enemies and of himself.

    But the fundamentalist reserves his greatest creativity for the fashioning of Satan, the image of his foe, in opposition to which he defines and gives meaning to his own life.

    In his society, dissent is not just but apostasy; it is heresy, transgression against God Himself.

    When fundamentalism wins, the world enters a dark age.

    ..the truly free individual is free only to the extent of his own self-mastery.. those who will not govern themselves are condemned to find masters to govern over them.’

    – The War of Art

    • Why post something about fundamentalism?

      Because flag / history / founding father / constitution worship.. is fundamentalism. A desire to return to a ‘simpler time’ when ‘we were winning’.

      A turn to fundamentalism is a sign of defeat. It is cowardice.

      It is those who have lost a battle, ceding the war. Seeing a dark future, and rather than rushing into it, turning their backs to stare into the past.

      You can not fight with your back to your enemy. No matter how horrible the images your enemy forms to try and get you to look away, you must stare steadily into his eyes.

      Faith. That you will win. Or you will die. But you will not cower or whine, shudder or beg.

      Who does the future belong to? If you’re a ‘fundamentalist’ your answer is ‘not me’. And if your ‘solution’ is ‘a return too..’ you need to start thinking bigger.

      I don’t want a return to slavery or a patriarchal voting system. I don’t want a return to a minimal state. Or to being ‘the predominant blah blah blah’ (our tribe is WINNING.. by crushing everyone else!)

      I want a BETTER future. A future where human beings are FREE INDIVIDUALS.. not Americans, f*****g ALL of them.

      I want a pollution free WORLD not a pollution free US (..oh lets just dump all this toxic shit over here!). A slavery free WORLD. A beautiful, abundant, rich, varied WORLD.

      Full of people doing what they love to do. Expressing both their differences, and their sameness. In other words.. all the fantastic variety – Italian shoes, French cheese, German cars, Japanese electronics, Thai food 😉

      Heck.. French cheese alone will keep you busy for a lifetime. The abundance possible FOR EVERYONE is unlimited.

      And you want to go BACK to..???

      “If your life’s work can be accomplished in your lifetime, you’re not thinking big enough.”
      – Wes Jackson


      “It does not take a majority to prevail… but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” – Samuel Adams

      You need to believe in what’s not true. How else are they to become?

      • Liberal Progressive!

        LOL that would be the typical response from the uninformed.

        • 😉

          The difference:

          I will create this (!!!)
          – vs –
          I want someone else (government) to create this for me

          We CHOOSE to create this
          We (the proles) should be FORCED to create this

        • Ironically the typial conservative calls the libertarian a “liberal progressive” and feels that,

          I will create this (!!!)
          – vs –
          I want someone else (government) to create this for me

          Is the difference between republican and democrat. Sigh!

        • =)

          Oh yeah. Something that popped into my head when you mentioned liberal progressive.. is that neither of those words is ‘bad’. 😉

          The issue is in defining desired personal or group action VIA POLITICS.

          Which is a fantastic way to get a HUMAN to oppose things that are GOOD for HUMANS.

          So much so that painting it with the opposing teams colors not only rallies ‘your team’ to fight it POLITICALLY.. but it also inoculates them against taking PERSONAL action. It becomes ‘something THEY (the hated enemy/satan) do’.

          Ideology on. Brain off.

          Is this beneficial/harmful to (all) human beings (not just OUR tribe) is IMO a better question.

        • I have to believe that if you get a degree in something like political science there are classes in it like, Ruining Words 101 and 201 and say Re-engineering Language 303.

          Progress – forward or onward movement toward a destination
          ive – suffix meaning to cause or to make

          So progressive should mean, to cause or to make something move forward.

          Instead it now means – a person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas.

          Which would not be terrible if we didn’t mess with liberal I guess but

          Liberal (original meaning, now listed number 7 in the dictionary) free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant:

          That definition has now been succeeded but the most common new one, “favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs”

          Holly double speak batman!

          So now a liberal progressive is defined as, “a person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas, favorable to progress or reform, as in political affairs”.


          Problems first using a word to define itself.

          Second what is “progress” in these definitions?

          What is a liberal idea? Is it an idea of tolerance or an idea that government should intervene, I mean those two things are sort of polar opposites are they not?

          So a true progressive liberal would want to move humanity forward by instilling a sense of value in society to tolerate to all beliefs even if we disagree with them. To allow each person and group to move forward at their own discretion so long as they did no harm to another.

          But today we use words like a “progressive tax” for a graduated tax system that punishes success in those that work hard, but actually never effects the truly wealthy that wrote the tax code in the first place who sold it to society by marketing the idea of the rich paying their “fair share”.

          And a “liberal religious policy” is being forced to serve or accommodate people of an opposing view to your own, against your will so long as those being accommodated are in the minority and those being forced are in the majority.

          Wasn’t there a book about stuff like this and words being ruined, nineteen eighty something, sigh.

  14. Time is a concept invented by Humans…Growing up on a farm, My day started when the sun came up….it end when the sun went down….No One cared what time it was.

  15. great pod cast Jack
    It has helped me sort some things out [separate]in regards to my father a ww2 veteran and his remains
    ill be contacting the VA about his final resting place here locally

    my self having worked for the department of the interior,
    I have seen the ugly side [from the inside] of how the government works and had lumped it all together

    thank you


  16. I’ve been looking on google for the Kissinger quote “Military Men Are Just Dumb, Stupid Animals” and can’t find Henry actually saying it. Can someone smarter than me post a link?

    • This is a copy of the most complete documentation on the source of the quote I can find

      Best Answer: The sentence was reported in “The Final Days”, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein

      It was said by Kissinger in front of Alexander Haig, newly appointed White House chief of staff, in Haig new office in 1973

      I quote to you the sentences related: as you may notice the quote between brackets is “dumb, stupid animals to be used” that was never denied by Kissinger

      In Haig’s presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as “dumb, stupid animals to be used” as pawns for foreign policy. Kissinger often took up a post outside the doorway to Haig’s office and dressed him down in front of the secretaries for alleged acts of incompetence with which Haig was not even remotely involved. Once when the Air Force was authorized to resume bombing of North Vietnam, the planes did not fly on certain days because of bad weather. Kissinger assailed Haig. He complained bitterly that the generals had been screamin for the limits to be taken off but that now their pilots were afraid to go up in a little fog. The country needed generals who could win battles, Kissinger said, not good briefers like Haig.
      On another occasion, when Haig was leaving for a trip to Cambodia to meet with Premier Lon Nol, Kissinger escorted him to a staff car, where reporters and a retinue of aides waited. As Haig bent to get into the automobile, Kissinger stopped him and began polishing the single star on his shoulder. “Al, if you’re a good boy, I’ll get you another one,” he said.

      end of quote
      Source(s): Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein
      The Final Days
      second Touchstone paperback edition (1994)
      Chapter 14, pp. 194-195
      andreaqi · 7 years ago

      • And there you go. What shocks me is that anyone would even doubt such a thing if you look at how our government has always treated our vets and yet they play the patriot card and anti vet card on us immediately when we criticize them (government) for their policies. I mean how many instances of screwing over and harming our vets can you think of perpetrated by the government in the last say 40 years, say starting with Agent Orange and working forward?

  17. I don’t know why anyone would be offended by any of this. Of course, I’ve been saying a lot of the same things for years.

    It’s the goddamn lies that offend me. We’ll never be free until we stop telling ourselves lies. We’re all getting screwed in this deal, so there ain’t no need for pride.

    Excellent show!

  18. Still listening to this episode but I heard you say that Iraq never had WMD’s. Wasn’t it sarin gas that was used in the Khurdish genocide that Iraq perpetrated? I was in OIF3 and OEF2 and though I don’t disagree that they weren’t there when I went, I am not willing to say that they were never there.

    Also I found this clip that my government teacher used in class that has always stuck with me. only need to go to about the 1:50 point.

    • It was no secret that they had chemical weapons because we’re the ones that sold them to Saddam. It was brokered by none other than Donald Rumsfeld.

    • There were none there by the time of Gulf War 2. We knew that, sure they had them, part of Gulf War one was disarmament of Iraq’s WMDs. Inspector after inspector said it had been done Colin Powell gave a convincing power point and sold the nation on war.

      • We are talking never in the context of the second war and reasons behind it. Not never as in infinite statement of all time here.

        • I should have been more clear. Don’t get me wrong. I was never sold on the Iraq invasion. I can remember exactly where I was standing when I saw Powell on TV give that speech and I stood there dumbfounded that people were buying the “Winnebagos of Death” B.S.

          I was alienated and ridiculed at the time by people I knew who bought into all this stuff but I saw no convincing evidence regarding the centrifuge tubes or the yellow cake uranium. It was very clear at the time that the war was being pushed and pushed fast using false data and fear.

          At the time, I considered it a possibility that he still had chemical weapons, but I didn’t consider that alone to be a threat to us. It was also clear, like so many others, Saddam was a useful Ally right up until the point that he wasn’t.

          And then it all became irrelevant to everyone. Then it was about liberation, then it was about “well, it needed to be done anyway” and then it was about “staying the course” and so on and so on, as we all know.

          But, when I saw people fall in line like that and then turn all their opinions on a dime according to white house bullet points, the earth moved beneath me. I had never experienced anything like that. It was 1984 shit on a level I had never seen and it changed me. I realized then just how cheap life was to those in power. But I also realized how easily people are led. It’s made me a little bitter, to be honest.

        • I think people like me have a bit of an issue too when we say “there were never”, I mean we know what we mean, but that doesn’t mean everyone else does.

  19. I listened to this podcast expecting to be mad. But, I wasn’t. I was raised to bleed the Red, White, and Blue. My father was an enlisted man in the Air Force. Both grandfathers served in the military as well as uncles. We said the Pledge of Allegiance before every matinee, at the start of every school day, and we stopped and saluted the Flag when it was being raised or lowered from the school flag post. I even talked to recruiters about joining up myself out of high school. (I didn’t but that was due to other circumstances.) But, something has been happening to me the last few years. Not something I can talk about to most of my friends and acquaintances. See, I’ve been getting these crazy ideas that perhaps, gasp, the Flag had become an idol (you surprised me when you said just that in the podcast!) and our government, regardless of party, was not worthy of the hot blooded defense and reverence I was raised to give to it. I can’t say that I really know what my political position is at the current moment other than somewhere into the Libertarian continuum. I struggle every election year with “do I vote” and if yes then “who?” I’m sick of voting for the “lesser of two evils” or “don’t throw away your vote on a third party candidate”. And, then there is the religious beliefs and struggles. It seems that to be a “good Christian” (of a Pentecostal flavor, that is) one *must* be Republican and bleed Red, White, and Blue. And, I don’t anymore. I am actually leaning more toward being a pacifist. It is a difficult place to be especially when there seems to be no one to walk the path with me. I don’t always agree with you, Jack, but you do make me think and that is a good thing. I love my country – it’s ideals more than its actual actions – but how I express that love is changing and uncertain.

    • I understand…

      Grandfather – US Navy WWII other Grandfather US Army WWII and retired as a Chief Warrant Officer with 30 years.

      One Uncle on Moms side, Korea the other Vietnam, that one also served in the CIA.

      Father served in Vietnam.

      Likely my dad did more to break me of blind patriotism though than any other person. Several old men that served in Korea that were friends of the family like adopted uncles helped too. They had the whole pride in service thing but they also knew they were forgotten and always would be. They knew it was a war that didn’t have to happen and certainly it never had to become what it did, they knew the 38th parallel was as secure a few weeks into it as it was at the end and that all their buddies killed, injured and mentally damaged didn’t have to be.

      You had to listen to hear what they were really saying, but if you listened you learned.

  20. Thank you Jack, this episode really hit home for me as I recently (apparently) lost a longtime childhood friend because I dared suggest that we may disagree or even be disgusted with people that want to protest by stomping on, burning the flag etc. and that they should still be allowed to do it.
    Apparently, he thinks that I might as well have killed his fellow marines myself for saying such a thing and anybody who protests in that way, or even agrees with protesters that protest in that way should be shot or deported to ISIS.

    The sad thing is that before he joined the Marines he was the nicest kid you’d ever know. So, it’s a weird mix of feelings where on one hand I don’t care if that’s the type of person he’s become that he’d unfriend me on Facebook, and on the other hand really mourning what a loss it is that the guy I knew as a young kid has become that type of a man. And a real concern for what type of brainwashing must have gone on for such a transformation to take place.
    Anyway, it makes me feel better knowing that I’m not the only one who thinks this way.

    • Give him time, he will or will not heal but as a Marine he will damn sure have to do it on his own terms.

  21. Jack,

    Wasn’t offended at all by the episode. I hope that I don’t offend you.
    Please explain to me the mentality that soldiers “fight for our freedom”. Iraq, Afgan, Kuwait, Korea, Vietnam, how where the enemy soldiers thousands of miles away a threat to our freedom? Where they repealing and invading occupying foreign army, protecting their own freedoms, customs and ways of life?


    • Those men believe they are fighting for our freedom for the SAME reason that most Americans also believe the same to be true. Is that really hard to understand?

  22. Jack,
    Just because someone believes something to be true does not make it so. As if someone said, “I am a walnut.” are they because they believe it? I more believe Rothbard to when he wrote in Anatomy of the State, that the Govt job is to make the people think the enemy is attacking the people not the policies of the regime through misguided sense of patriotism.
    One other thing I’m on the fence about is being culpable for soldiers actions (good or bad) by being extorted (taxes) ie the “We ARE the Govt” mentality. In WWII, some argue, the millions of Jews and other groups weren’t killed but really committed suicide because they payed taxes and voted for the govt choices that were made up to eventually their own demise.
    Are you willing to stand before a judge because the actions by the individuals in this Youtube video?
    What if I told you “you’re welcome” for your Drill Sgt’s words of wisdom on the bus to the training range, or for the older gentleman you spoke to in the feed store or for any service members service (including your own). You’d say “you didn’t do shit, you ass-clown.”and probably something about not being in the “club” and you’d be mostly right.
    No, each man is responsible for their own actions and choices, good or bad.

    • So you are a purist fucking asshole basically then right.

      Here is why I say this….

      Every fucking day of the week YOU BENEFIT from something the state does and you do so at least a few times voluntarily.

      I just bet if you give an honest answer to “what is your job”, if you have one your company receives government money on some level and YOU ARE ALSO PAID BY TAXES THEN.

      The problem with purist assholes is they are actually almost never purists, they talk one way but act another.

      The last guy that made this BULLSHIT argument to me turned to work for John Deere! They make BILLIONS direct from government.

      My favorite hypocrite is a well known purist anarchist and HE IS ON GOVERNMENT DISABILITY.

      It is one thing to say people should be aware of shit and perhaps people should choose not to serve, etc. It is another thing to talk about people as though they are guilty and you are not.

      Likely at least a dozen times a day YOU BENEFIT from the theft by the state in ways you don’t absolutely drop dead have to.

      You telling me “you’re welcome” is also likely bullshit. Most people that take your tact, pay absolute SHIT in taxes compared to what I have. I have done more to pay my bills though being stolen from then you have.

      Your a purist likely because you have tricked yourself into believing yourself to be innocent.

      Further you ignored your own question in my answer in your complete pile of purist bullshit. You asked why, I told you and you ignored your own question and the honest answer.

      The answer is THEY DON’T KNOW! It is MARKETING the most effective marketing in history.

      It saddens me to see people talk shit about men whose boots they are not fit to polish let alone wear.

  23. The “enemy” soldiers in the above post actually were repelling an invading foreign occupying army. Does it make any difference what country is the aggressor/invader, or is it OK when we do it but not anyone else? Would anyone be OK with Mexico/Afgan/Kuwait/Korea/Russia/ect sending soldiers into the u.S.? Spreading democracy is not fighting for freedom. Repelling an invading army on your home soil is the only time any soldier fights for freedom customs and their way of life.

    • 90% of our soldiers never see combat, never fire a shot, EVER. Again, WHO DO YOU WORK FOR, I noticed you avoided that question.

  24. Ad hominem and Saul Alinsky rules #4 “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”, and #5 “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” attacks?

    You’re right, I do benefit every minute of the day and night from the State. Should I worship at the alter of the our benevolent benefactor, the State or throw off the chains? I benefit from your show, it adds value to my life. Should I grovel at your boots because of your show that I benefit from or because you were in the army while learning a valuable trade that I paid for.
    I vote with my dollars and chose not to join MSB because you’re an arrogant asshole. I do support the sponsors every chance I get and like the history segments, thanks for those, keep them coming. ( what are you going to do when you hit the year that hasn’t happened yet?) I don’t want to reward you for your asshole facade. If you weren’t such an egotistical jerk, I’d pay double.

    I didn’t avoid the question of what is my job, I chose not to answer, it’s not relevant. I’ll leave it to your imagination what I do. But for arguments sake, lets say I work for John Deere, a private company that makes a profit/product in the market but gets subsidies from the Govt (for a product delivered to the govt, a lot like you buying a John Deere) , according to you that makes me a zit on the ass of society and am more of a POS if I’m 100% dependent on the Govt/taxpayers for my income? What if I’m in the Army? Who gets billions in taxpayer money, is 100% dependent on the taxpayers? Am I still a POS or am I now a patriot worthy of cult military hero worship? Is one more patriotic because I volunteer to trade labor for a pay check in the free market or volunteer as a naïve brainwashed kid at the hands of skilled psych ops mind fuck professionals (marketing is not a strong enough word) who will ultimately take orders from people who think you’re a dumb stupid animal to be used as pawns in their little game. Apples to apples is one profitable, is one a drain on the economy, taxpayers and society because of possible death of an Einstein, Tesla, Boch, mom, dad, brother, son,sister etc. Am I purist or are you a hypocrite?

    Yes, you do pay more taxes than I do. Congratulations!!! You’re an idiot. I pay a very good accountant handsomely to ensure I pay as little as possible. Next year, thru strategic allocations, I’ll do better, i.e., you’ll pay me. You burned me good on that one!

    I don’t need to wear my medals on my chest to get recognition from anyone, especially arrogant jerks like you.

    Look into the definition of cult, then see if the military fits into the definition.

    Shine those chains, Jack, shine those chains, you wear them well!

    • Here this attack is not Ad Hominem, it is direct you are a fucking moron. How is that?

      To acknowledge that some things the state does works or does benefit you, is not to lick their boots. You have just done so while attacking me for the same, you now have proven that you are the exact type of elitist moron asshole I was talking about. Thank you for demonstrating that.

      Now when anyone wants to see what I mean about this type of idiocy, I can show them your comment here. Good job, thank you for so perfectly proving my point.

  25. Another ad hominem? You’re not very good at this. Why don’t you answer my questions instead of spewing written diarrhea mixed with cuss peanuts and ill thought out put-down? You haven’t called me a booger eater or a big stupid dummy head, yet (just giving you fresh ideas).
    So, am I a purist or are you a hypocrite? Depending on if I work for John Deere or am in the Army, I’m either a zit on the ass of society or a one worthy of hero worship. Which is it?
    Is John Deere or the Army (military) the zit on the ass of society based on the amount of money it gets from tax payers/govt vs private sector? Or will you not answer that question either because you cannot defend your own (ill thought out) argument? I say the State is the zit because it extorts the money in the first place.
    You and others “pay” taxes that I and everyone else benefit from daily, I appreciate your “patriotism” as Hillary put it, keep it up! I was making the point that I know that I benefit from the State, just like I benefit from your show but I don’t worship at the alter of the State or your show because of it.
    You’ve made your own point about blind patriotism being more dangerous than state oppression. You’re a blind patriot and can’t see it. You are what and who your show was about.
    I pity you, Jack. I really do.

    • An ad hominem is to attack the person to weaken the position. I am no longer debating the position with you, as I said you are a fucking moron. I am done wasting energy on your idiocy.

      See my father taught me many things, one was that “when a person talks like a man with a paper asshole, don’t waste your time with them”.

      My father was a wise man.