A Brief Update on AOCS and Silver Shield — 164 Comments

  1. Today when I go to the tspmint website I see a note at the top of the page that states it is and the website has no similar appearance to the tspmint yesterday after the server change or anytime in the past. Additionally, none of the TSP coins are on the website.

      • It was doing the same for me for a bit yesterday & earlier today but seems ok now. I assume it has to do with the multiple domains & sub-domains being moved, and the info being refreshed in various domain name servers, so some misrouting occurred. I figured it was just temporary glitch & it seems to be fine now.

      • Jack, if you take Chris at his word, Rob stole 1,500 ounces of silver from him. You want to do business with a thief?

        • Did anyone not get their silver? Mine arrived. I trust Jack and will until such time as I have reason not to. I do not expect that time to come…

    • @Scott

      Define stole. This is my problem with Chris’ rant. He is attempting to get an entire audience of people on his side who are not personally involved in the dispute. The arguments are over the top emotionally driven, and there is no way for outsiders (such as myself) to know what actually happened.

      So Chris Duane always says “Listen to everyone, follow none” he even says that about himself. So I’ll listen to him, am I going to follow him just because he says so? No.

  2. Thank you Jack. I am one of those who was spooked by the post from Chris, and feel now that I jumped the gun so to speak. I’ll be placing an order for Ant Shield coins today!

  3. @modern survival, I do not know what is going on as your link works fine for me. But, when I enter it into my browser I get both the argoristmetals website and the TSP website from the same address
    I’m not a techi and don’t understand how this happens.

  4. sounds like you are a third wheel in a personal relationship, but you will obviously side with whichever is better for your business. You can probably use this to make it grow when the smoke clears…good luck.

    “P.S. Just as I was about to post this, I get an email blast from the Mulligan Mint that they are selling The Survival Podcast Ant Shield?!

    Somebody better let Jack know what is going on before his good name and customers get caught in this growing mess.”

    • I’ll keep my name along side Rob Gray’s before I do so with Chris Duane’s any day. Rob is a better man then me, Chris would be walking with a limp minimum right now if I was Rob!

  5. Let’s just say I know the players involved and have personally done a LOT of business with them. Rob has always stood by his word. Starting a business is hard work. Starting a business in manufacturing and doing what they did in the time frame they did it in is damn near unprecedented. I want to see them succeed. They have given me no reason to doubt them. They did not buy a building and all of this equipment for run a quick scam to make some money. I am confident that orders will continue to be filled as they always have. As the business matures the process will become better and better. It is easy to get shaken. It is more difficult to have faith. Until I see an order not get filled, then I personally am going to continue to root for them.

  6. Thanks for the info Jack. I thought something had to be up when the relaunch of the SBSS stuff was suddenly pulled. Hopefully Duane will man up and apologize, there is no need for disharmony among like minded folks, it is counter productive. I’m waiting on the next TSP silver offering so I can stack a few more.

    • If he wants to sever ties the right way would be finish what is outstanding and each go their separate ways. You know Rob can’t give him the dies right? Not only are they AOCS marked but he still has orders to fill for the coins. Chris is being a child here, and there is more to it then you guys see, I just won’t say what just trust me he isn’t the victim he claims to be here.

    • On the dies, you’re 100% right. Their marked with AOCS, that’s Rob’s rep on the line. If he didn’t make you pay for your dies, you can bet Chris didn’t pay for his either.

  7. @ Bonnie and Modern Survival, I had an affiliate link to the TSPMint’s former location and it goes to the agorist site, but Jack your link goes to the TSP mint so maybe Bonnie has an old affiliate link.

    • We just moved the server check it out if you go to http you get the right site if you go to https you get the wrong site, they hosed up something with the security cert is what seems to have happened. Fricken server migration in the middle of this is not a good thing, LOL. I have informed them of the issue.

  8. When all the smoke clears, how much over spot should a TSP member pay for a coin?

    By the way I clicked on the link from yesterdays podcast and I get the “pardon our Dust” page.

    • We are still at 2.99 over spot for the public and 1.99 over spot for MSB, you just have to buy a minimum of 5 to get that price. We just can’t sell coins one off for such a low price.

      Silver is 23.20 right now, we are close to live pricing but not updated by the minute or anything.

      5 TSP Ant coins right now would be prices at 26.41 each 3.21 over spot so 22 cents higher then where we try to be. The price is based on the open today, so silver is just up 22 cents is all.

      5 Ant Coins with MSB discount would be 25.41 each or 2.21 over spot on the live price which is simply 1.99 over spot on the open today.

      Make sense, you can use until we get the server move screw up fixed by the way.

  9. Not all of your listener’s orders have been filled . . . I’m still waiting for the copper that was supposed to be the bonus for ordering 5 pieces of silver that opening weekend.

    • Did you email me and let me know that? Also did you in fact order on the opening weekend, a few people expecting it didn’t and still expected the copper. I will get in touch with Will right now and make sure you get your copper.

  10. I did order opening weekend (Feb 2 to be exact). I emailed you March 17th to let you know I hadn’t received it – you forwarded it to Will on the 18th, and he said he’d get it out ASAP. As I still hadn’t heard anything as of last week, I emailed you and Will again on April 12th and got no response.

    • Email me your address, I will send you one personally and one that is the ONLY ONE of its kind to make up for the confusion. I will explain why it is special when I send it to you.

      • Gerard Repko | April 18, 2013 at 8:37 pm | Reply
        Well, only after threatening them with letting you know what was going on with the lack of communication, order delays etc. did I receive my ant coins. And I received a copper with them. But I bought the freedom girls the first night of issue because you suggested it. I stayed up till one a.m. To be in the first 1500 so that I qualified for the free copper, and then a second one if they surpassed another number. I emailed them, called them, and emailed again with no replies. They can’t seem to be bothered with customers who’s money they’re hanging onto. I finally got through via phone call to a girl who said that she was going to make sure that my freedom girls were on their way and that they would also throw in a Lakota copper coin or credit me $7.50 towards my next order. I of course said the Lakota would be fine.i received my freedom girls maybe a month ago and still haven’t seen a single copper. I’m done holding my breath. If these guys have personal spats, they should keep them personal, and not screw with our money. I’m guessing I will never see those coppers, because I’m not going to waste any more energy or time emailing someone who doesn’t reply. I’m extremely disappointed in this company and even signed up to be an affiliate to advertise on my websites and blog. Needless to say, I will not be doing that. I wouldn’t want the storm of angry customers that their epic fail has produced. They did exactly what they warn others about on their video, played the market with our money. So if you want tolet them investigate where my coppers and their false promises went please be my guest. Until I see them, I won’t be furthering THEIR cause. Am a big fan of yours jack, as well as a supporting member of the brigade. But I give this company two thumbs down.

      • Damn it Spirko. It’s 11 at night and you take care of my problem. You fricking rock sir.

      • I try man, I really do, can’t always do it that fast but I do my best day to day.

  11. TSPMint is good to go.

    After reading Chris’ blog post, I definitely think he’s jumping at way too many assumptions. I like Chris and all but it seems like he’s made a lot of assumptions. Obviously I wasn’t there, but I can tell you what, if somebody walked into my office and immediately demanded something (probably in an irritate manner) I’d probably tell him to go F off. Its bad problem solving skills and getting what you want, via demands generally is a bad way of going about it (Even if you are right).

    I’ve gotten all the silver I’ve ever paid for by Mulligan Mint. No issues at all. I’ve had Rob Gray’s brother (I’m almost positive) personally call me at least two different times to give me updates the first time I ordered from them. (This was a purchase I made the day after he came on the air to talk about the DC hearing).

    I’ll judge the man by his results. The silver market is over the top loaded with delays every single place you go. He has an extremely small and independent operation. I would assume Rob’s operation is not on the high end of the totem pole for getting silver (in comparison to the significantly larger operations such as… oh i dunno government mints). The only thing I’ve been “dissatisfied” in the past with, is the ability to actually put in an order, but I’ve now found enough dealers that do business with him that I can do it.

    • I also meant to say the remarks about Lakota bank are so eye rolling its ridiculous. “Its not FDIC insured”. They don’t even deal in US Dollars. Chris Duane of all people warning people to stay away from a non-FDIC bank? THAT to me is very very odd. Nowhere on their website does it say its FDIC. They’re about as flying under the radar of US regulations as it gets. A guy calling US dollars as “Debt and Death” (I agree with that nickname) wants FDIC? Makes zero sense. Guess what? I USAA, they’re not FDIC backed either. I guess I should drop them and tell everybody else to do the same…… Not.

      • Let me just add Mike I am glad we squared away our differences when I thought you were a different Mike, very glad. Again my apologies for that confusion.

        • No worries!
          After reading the comments in the post its even more eye rolling. Chris should take his own advice. He is/was fanning his own support by encouraging people to take his side. “Listen to all follow none.” It looks like he has quite a number of followers and he enjoys it. I don’t know Rob personally, I don’t know Chris personally, I wasn’t at the “meeting”, so I’ll refrain from having an opinion (about his encounter). For all I know chris went in there “guns a blazing” and it pissed off Rob, or Chris very nicely asked for the things he asked for (doubt it) and Rob is acted like a “piece of shit” (as one commenter put it). Don’t know, don’t care.

          Fly to Singapore, has his own airport? Last I checked Rob Gray is trying to create an international silver banking system. VERY UNUSUAL AND FISHY INDEED. No… really its not.
          And last bit of analysis about his (in my opinion) poor arguments. Rob is much more likely to make money through honest means in the silver market than in “unhonest” ways. Why bother investing or expanding? If he had idled factories, rather than ones that cannot keep up with demand, that might be a cause for alarm. “He is a bad bad man he can’t keep up with demand in one of the most volatile markets on the planet in some of the most volatile times in generations.”

          Nothing I can’t stand more than emotional hole filled arguments with over the top sensationalism. “This is what anarcho-capitalism is like”. Ok Chris, what do you stand for, unbridled dictatorship with you at the helm?

    • “The silver market is over the top loaded with delays every single place you go.”

      I have stuck with AEs from APMEX and JM Bullion, and I have not had issues with delays. Just saying.

      • Apmex, is apparently now back in stock. Almost all silver products the other day were delayed.

        Nearly ALL products on JMBullion are running a month delayed and have been even before this recent gold/silver drop in price. Put in an order the other week, still haven’t received it. (Not blaming them, I love their prices and their site)

        SDBullion is reporting that it is only taking phone orders (you can take alot less orders in this way).

        Gainesville coins is running a month delay.

        GoldenEagleCoins is running almost a month delay.

        Most products at Provident Metals is on delay.

        Early this year US Mint was sold out of American Eagles.

        In 2011, every single website was running at least month behind in silver products and increasing, not to mention there was quite a bit of concern of COMEX running out of actual physical.

        • Just relaying my experience; I haven’t purchase anything in the past month or so. Good to know APMEX is still able to deliver with no delays.

          When an entire industry has a common delay, I assume folks are willing to wait. Seems that Mulligan has had problems and delays for a long time, unrelated to the general market.

          So if getting silver in-hand without delay is of concern, I would suggest that folks stick to the established players and standard bullion. I don’t care so much about the pictures on my PM, so that’s what I do.

        • I just this past week gotten an order from JM. I had placed at the beginning of the price drop. I have heard there were some delays but on Eagles, I picked up some bars…

          I have had great experiences with JM as well as the customer service with AOCS.

        • @Keith

          I’ll be honest I haven’t been looking at bars. I probably haven’t bought a bar product in years. They’re not exactly on the forefront of the highly purchased items. But good point.

      • Because tone can rarely be conveyed well via internet, I’ll make it clear that I was just posting to get you up to date.

        If you hadn’t been paying attention gold/silver shit the bed and the other day pretty much the entire internet market froze up with over the top purchases. I was able to sneak in a purchase, but alot of products are definitely now out of stock that had higher premiums because everyone saw them as buying opportunities. (myself included).

        Until today Apmex was definitely on delay but they have the little sticker “Back in stock”. Like I was saying back in 2011 man Apmex was either completely out of stock or extremely delayed (month+) so it can get pretty rough. Alot of people are predicting that this is basically the start of this kind of stuff this year.

        The problem with just buying from Apmex is they’re prices aren’t always that great, and unless you’re buying ALOT, you’re getting screwed on the premiums.

        While I agree with you that Mulligan has had some problems I think its not really nearly as “bad” as people think, or people should probably ease up on their expectations. Silver supply is over the top extremely tight. I had another reply but it didn’t get posted for some reason, but Mulligan mint isn’t high on the pecking order of getting silver. Government mints on the other hand are. Mulligan Mint is a completely private small operation, so, one should know what they’re purchasing when they purchase it.

        I think alot of people don’t know the silver market or understand its volatility and tightness of its supply chain. As Jack says, he is selling custom medallions, not bulk silver products. Thats what Mulligan Mint provides, not to mention at a cheaper price than say, American eagles. Go look up Silver Bullet Silver Shield products on ebay and you’ll see what I mean (quite pricy). I definitely agree with you, if people are trying to get non-delayed stuff though. Although in my experience, other than the past few years, delays become the norm.

        With the coming headwinds we’re probably going to see alot more delays and out of stocks.

        • @Mike, I see what you mean. I recently picked up some eagles from a coin show here in Baltimore. As I was walking around I saw a lot of private medallions that were going for maybe 2-3$ over what most people were selling eagles for. At the time about…34/35 was the going rate for 2013 eagles, although I found them for 33 from one guy.
          I guess its safe to say theres more aesthetic value to the medallions and some mints want a premium. I personally like them but I only see the silver…

          I agree, delays may become the norm as people start to look past the main stream news and see Chinas path to a gold std. Copper may not be such a bad idea while its dirt cheap compared to the potential future, although my fav is “copper jacketed lead.”

        • @Keith
          I need to go do that sometime. Haven’t been to a coin show before. Are you from Maryland? God I hope not =)
          Recently moved from the Northern Virginia area down here to Looziana.

          My friend is much more up to date on “nuismatic” coins. He recently made the call to buy Canadian Wildlife series at ProvidentMetals because they were like 10 dollars cheaper than other places, well when prices hit rock bottom they all completely sold out in minutes. Luckily i have a few coming my way now. I actually really want to get fractional silver. I don’t care what it is, just friggin fractional silver. If Rob Gray can deliver fractional silver for not so much over spot price, I’ll definitely be a true rob gray believer. But, i’m not going to hold my breath.

          Oh and I would hold off on copper until after the coming (probably this year) collapse in copper prices. Those warehouses full of copper in China, and upcoming complete and total financial melt down (in china) will make copper much much cheaper.

        • @Mike Yeap. Im maryland. We have a house in west va which is where my moms father was born, he came to Baltimore for work after the war, both my grandfathers worked at the steel mill after the war actually. I frequently consider buying land out there cause I wont buy a house in MD, ill keep renting.

          Good call on the copper, I know Omalley tried to tax the coin show guys when they came to baltimore a couple years ago and they raised hell. Good for them! They got their way so I saw it as a good chance to scoop some coins on the cheap.

          I cant reply to some of these its hidden behind the avatar….

  12. I’ve been following this now for a couple of days now and I just tried to re-read his blog and it looks like the site is down, or a dead link now..

      • Seems to be ok now, but slow as a dog…

        It will be interesting to see how this all folds..

        My guy up here can only get Aussie coins in now

    • Well I think the adult child blocked referral traffic from TSP because he is mad that I posted this.

  13. I made several orders Jack and I have received them with a miner delay, I am very happy with the quality of workmanship and look forward to future design build coins for my personnel collection. keep up the fantastic job my friend.
    Persevere and move forward. Anthony

  14. I am sorry you feel this way and you did not bother to talk to me or Gus or any other people that have seen much more than you.

    I had Rob look me in the eye and tell me I would get “nothing”, but who the hell am I right?

    I wish you all the success in your next launch, but it is your reputation that is now going to be tied to this drama.

    • Chris don’t play the victim here! You know what you were doing and with whom you were doing it with! I noticed you totally left that entire part out of your rant on your blog, hmmm, why oh why did you do that?

      People that tell “the whole story” but then leave completely critical information out of it, well, it says everything about their character.

  15. I received all my orders as of today. Very happy customer will do MUCH more business in the future.

  16. My take on all this:

    I like the artwork of the SBSS line. I like the TSP coins. I’m on the fence with the idea that AOCS will ever really be mainstream, but good on them if they do. I will continue to buy any new SBSS coins for collection reasons if nothing else.

    The TSP site seems to be well enough. I bought just before the blackout, and it is in the mail currently. Delay, sure, but given that I waited 18 months for .25ACP ammo from, I’ll get over it, especially since they said upfront that order service is delayed.

    The SBSS site on the other hand has been a load of crap. They waffle on when they would reopen, launch, etc, links are broken, information is jarbled, etc. When I was first going to place my order I talked with them about combining shipping between SBSS and TSP and they said put in the order with TSP then call them to tack on the SBSS. After I put in the TSP order SBSS claimed they had no idea how to combine orders like that. So I ordered SBSS products from one of their dealers, paid the extra $2/oz and low and behold, had it delivered in about a week. SBSS might be taking a hit to clean up the TSP side, but either way they still need a skull cracking.

    On the Rob/Chris/Jack love triangle, I don’t know jack about Rob or Chris (forgive the pun), but disagreements aside, I have never had a reason to doubt Jack’s integrity.

    • An opinion based almost exclusively on personal experience. I’m with you all the way. At worst I see that Mulligan Mint has attempt to go way beyond their capacity and under estimated the difficulty of the business. If jacks statements are factual from his side (no reason to doubt them), its good that he told him to pump the brakes and get their shit together. If anything that is a professional favor/courtesy. Good on them for trying to full steam ahead, but if you get ahead of yourself, and over extend yourself, you’re going to be worse off in the end.

      Its a good reason for them to stop selling new orders, get caught up, and stock inventories. The silver market is absolutely no place for a kaizen business model. (just in time processing).

      • Frankly I’d care less if their business model was literally take money, place order for raw silver, receive silver, melt, punch coins, cool, pack, then ship a month or two latter. You have any idea how many gun gear companies work that way? I’m fine with it. But say what you will deliver then deliver it, and get your story strait. When a company can’t do that, it is either competence or integrity. Competence I’m lenient on (everybody has a learning curve), and integrity doesn’t seem to be the issue here. If going forward they said look you give us money based on silver rates, we take money, buy stuff, and get your stuff to you in x weeks, I’m good with that for what they are selling.

      • @InBox485
        Agreed. I should have clarified that, if that’s what their intent is, it should be pushed forward. No other silver place I know, sells like that.

        I’d say that the assumption/indication here is that, thats not how their business model works. In fact on their own website (That I guess they don’t use anymore? I’d like more info on that…. they would have things that were out of stock and would say out of stock, or would have the delay time. Thats why I received personal phone calls from them talking about the status of my order (like 6+ months ago or more).

        If Rob Gray came out from the gitgo and said “We’ll be minting the TSP coins once we start getting orders in” I think it would be a bit more obvious.

  17. IMHO (all humor)

    On ‘delays’..

    ‘Custom’ items take longer than bulk manufactured/warehoused items, as they’re not put into the production queue until they’re ordered. A supplier might ‘speculate’ on future orders by making some before entering the marketplace, but if demand exceeds the speculation.. it takes time.

    The internet, Amazon, 7/11 and Walmart (though not so much lately) have led many to believe that everything is available NOW. And that anything less is ‘slow’ or ‘taking too long’.

    Stuff takes time. The more steps (and therefore the more that can go wrong) the longer the time.

    What’s the rush? You’re a prepper with everything you NEED already stored away for winter, right? 😉

    Why get so anxious over a short (very short by historical standards) delay? Its not your ‘without it you’ll die’ heart medicine after all..


    • Well said.
      Like i just said above, they really need to fullfill their orders, get equalized, and provide inventory for businesses rather than trying to fullfill individual (person to person) orders for fullfillment. If various dealer websites don’t have stocked items, then don’t sell claims on non-existent items. Just asking for pain in the long run. Trying to run too far, too fast. But hey, I can appreciate the spirit.

    • BINGO!

      Sorry I shouted, but being in a custom business, I can testify to the fact that custom orders take time! Suppliers, drop the ball, material becomes scarce, equipment breaks, and you have to rely on other people who don’t have the same priorities that you do.

      I can imagine the level of stress that Rob is under right now, because I have been under that kind of pressure.

    • Your soo right. Amazons prime shipping has spoiled all of us.
      Remember this days of catalog and mail orders?
      Spoiled rotten brats,lol.

  18. As for the dies issue. I am a tool designer/manufacturing engineer for a metals fabrication company. All of the tooling and press dies that we make for our customers products we charge the customer for. So they own the dies and can take them with them whenever they want. They are the customer’s property.

    On the rare chance that we make dies and do not charge the customer, they are owned by us. We paid for them. They are our property. The customer has no claim to them regardless if we use them to make product for them or not. This is very typical procedure for manufacturing.

    As for outstanding orders. Rob has an obligation to fulfill those orders unless they are cancelled by that particular customer. Just because someone else owns the design and wants to prematurely end their contract doesn’t absolve the other party from fulfilling their orders and obligations first.

  19. Jack, I know both Rob and Chris, and although I am only an occasional listener I have great respect for you and what you are doing. That said I would suggest you think critically about the situation.

    You might want to ask yourself though why Chris would sabotage his own product by demanding something unreasonable and then throwing a temper tantrum.

    You might also want to ask yourself what you would do if things were still not caught up for your customers and your reputation was on the line.

    You might also want to ask yourself what you would do if as Chris claims you were not paid your affiliate revenue and your property was being held.

    As for the dies/design of the coins – they only say AOCS on the back. Just saying.

    I respect you Jack and I know that no matter what happens you are an upstanding individual. Chris could be wrong and you may not like him or his way of airing his grievances but as you know we are entering a period where otherwise good people are going to turn on each other. The fact that you have resorted to name calling smells like denial so I just want to warn you not to let that cloud your judgement in this critical time.

    Peace Out

    • First on the dies, as a partner again I didn’t pay for my dies, I doubt Chris did either, so if he didn’t pay for them, they are simply not his. Secondly the coin itself is an AOCS coin, if Chris wishes to recreate it that is his choice and should be done at his expense. One half of a die is useless.

      Next AOCS still is obligated to deliver the SBSS coins that are on order, if they gave the tantrum thrower the dies, please tell me how they would finish this up? Just because Chris took his ball and went home doesn’t leave Mulligan mint off the hook here on fulfilling the back orders they still have does it?

      Again they are not Chris’ dies, just like the TSP dies are not my dies. Rob’s company provided the labor, materials, design work and money to produce them. Claiming they are his dies is alone a huge problem with Duane’s story. Critical thinking, given I am a partner with AOCS just as Chris was that is exactly what I am doing.

      Flat out Rob’s team took to long to deliver, they screwed up and Chris sold a literal ton of coins. This of course damaged his relationship with his audience as it did to me. My choice was to hold the AOCS guys to the fire, make sure my people were taken care of and fulfill my commitment to my people. It took shutting down orders to do so, it took working closely with Rob’s team as well and it took time. Once we got caught up I made the decision to keep working with good people doing their best with some required commitments.

      Chris instead choose to go and make demands that amounted to taking everything that he felt was his and leaving the partnership before the existing obligations to his own customers was fulfilled.

      As for why he would do this? Oh I know exactly why, I know precisely why! I know exactly WHO he thinks he will be working with going forward and how naive he must be to think it will be an improvement. I sure wish I could just explain it but my professional obligations here override my personal desire for justice.

      • Fair enough, and thank you for the reply.

        I think Chris did all of the things that you mentioned to motivate fulfillment.

        I think the fact that one half of the die is useless is precisely why Chris wanted it.

        I hate to see this happening and in a way I hope Chris is dead wrong, but over and over again I’ve seen people denigrate him and act like he is crazy and overreacting only to find out that he is just good at connecting the dots.

        Once again, thanks for your reply, normally I wouldn’t even have posted but since the collapse has started I feel that its not time for silence.

        Thanks for fighting the good fight and living on the right side of history Jack. You’ve saved lives and you’ve done well.

        Peace Out

        — Admittedly Biased

        • The collapse has started? Well technically it started long ago but in the way you mean it, nope. That thinking is why many of you that follow Chris might get really hurt in the mid term! Its why I reach 5-10% of wealth insurance in PMs not “all in”. Frankly this economy is about to have a huge boom, protect yourself during it for sure but sit it out and wait for the end and you might have a soaking wet ass for a very long time.

        • Also I didn’t denigrate Chris or call him names, I said he threw and adult temper tantrum, that is just a statement of fact. And again you ignore two things on the dies.

          1. Chris didn’t pay for them

          2. There are orders left to be fulfilled with them

      • Your post has got me thinking a lot over this matter.
        First off, by Chris walking away from his partnership with Rob, he essentially ditched his customers that still have unfulfilled orders.
        Secondly, you are exactly correct…How can the mint fulfill the orders without the dies? It’s simply not possible.
        There are a lot of us waiting for our rounds… and he KNOWS this.
        It’s a shame that the two of them couldn’t come to some sort of amicable agreement …for the sake of THEIR customers.
        All I know is that Coins for the Cause accepted and cashed my check for 5 tubes of rounds. 5 tubes that after 65 days still haven’t been shipped.
        Who makes up Coin for the Cause anyways? I know Will Lehr is the Executive Director, but who’s above him? Rob? Chris? Rob and Chris???

      • We both know the boom is the calm before the storm.

        I agree with the 5-10% I think that is smart thing for most people.

        I meant the collapse has started because we are past the point of no return in my opinion. Whether it takes 20 days or 20 years is inconsequential, as the day of reckoning will come like a thief in the night.

        All I’m saying is that if what Chris is saying is true, Rob’s reaction left Chris with no choice. If you have a vendor and you are not happy you might warn them a couple times but eventually you end the relationship. If their reaction is “what can I do to keep you” you might reconsider. You hope that they at least would try to settle your account so that you both can get on with life. It doesn’t sound like that occurred here, and if that is true that is somewhat troubling for anyone with an interest in Rob’s venture.

        You can believe whichever side you want, or neither.

        • If I believed everything Chris said and due to specific knowledge direct from behind the sceens I don’t he still handled this whole thing like a child and used no professionalism. Let’s look at what I would have done if I was in Chris’ shoes and wanted to end the relationship.

          1. Contact Rob upfront and say, look this isn’t working out can we please come to an agreement to wind things down and make sure we cover all the outstanding orders?

          2. Proposed the following, let’s keep the orders off obviously and make sure we fulfill everything. Once that is done let us jointly announce that we have decided to no longer work together.

          3. Asked Rob will you provide me with a full accounting of the referral fees due to me so we can work that out properly as well.

          4. Given the nature of the “limited edition” of the medallions can we ensure they are destroyed once all orders are filled?

          5. Given the final set of dies won’t be used as long as was intended can we split the cost of production between the two of us.

          6. Once all was agreed to and all was delivered, both Chris and Rob could have parted company honorably and simply wished each other the best going forward.

          Now instead Chris goes to Rob and demands the dies, the total in silver Chris claims is owed and wants both right now this second with no level of common respect or professionalism. Rob responds with, “You’ll get nothing” and even if it happened that exact way which is what Chris claims I have to say, good for Rob. In a partnership either side can terminate the partnership but there a professional protocols to be respected. Chris basically put at risk the pending orders that Rob still must fill for SBSS.

          Now may be Chris feels that Rob should just refund the pending orders but do the customers want that? Likely many do not, they want their silver and Rob is obligated to provide it. See Chris’ customers are not just Chris’ customers they are Rob’s customer as well. In fact they are actually 100% Rob’s customers because Rob is the one that received payment and accepts the obligation of fulfillment. Trust me that is certainly the way the law would view it so Rob would be a fool to just give Chris the dies and refund the pending orders, the only sensible thing from a legal stand is to tell Chris to go screw and draw things to a close properly even if Chris doesn’t want that because it is now Rob’s legal obligation to all customers to do so.

          Now let me ask you if you think Chris Duane is a smart man or a stupid man? My answer is he is a very smart man, extremely smart. So given the above would have likely gotten him exactly what he claims to want, one must ask why he didn’t proceed as I state would have made the most sense? Is he so much dumber then I am that it never occurred to him? Or was his judgement clouded by emotion? Which seems more likely a foolish choice caused by an emotional overreaction or Chris is too dumb to know how to properly end a relationship.

          Again I don’t think Duane is dumb in fact I think he is as smart or smarter then I am, I really mean that. When a smart business person does a dumb thing in business there is generally something behind the scenes driving the stupid choice. Generally it involves treachery, and that is afoot here and you boy Chris is on the hook for it.

          Frankly I would have told Chris the same thing if he came to me the way he came to Rob. Chris walked into Rob’s place of business and demanded things his way, business partnerships don’t work that way. Like I have said there is more to this story, I really hope I am given the all clear to say it or that Rob himself says it soon, it may change your perception a great deal.

    • Whatever Chris is going to do, he’ll get nowhere if he can’t dial back the emo and articulate using logic, reason, and objective evidence what was done and what was wrong. I’ll I can tell be reading his stuff and comparing it to other sources is that he is throwing a hissy fit, and making factually disputed claims.

      Don’t get me wrong, saying or promising one thing and intentionally delivering another is a HUGE pet peeve of mine that I won’t even pretend to tolerate. But if you can’t articulate what was promised and what was delivered and what is faulting, and back it up with evidence, you can’t make a claim.

  20. I received all my orders, but I was worried there for a bit. I like the designs as well, but hope that the quality of the rounds when struck will improve from coin to coin. I know its growing pains.

  21. First of all, I’ve received all of my orders. It took well over a month on this final batch of proofs, but I did receive them. Ironically, unlike you, my experience with Mulligan’s customer service was pretty great: I had a couple of phone conversations several months back about one order, and even 2 online chat conversations with customer service about some other orders, and it was all pleasant and the issues resolved.

    That said, with all these questions, I now have no idea whether or not the medallions are truly .999 silver. I mean, how can we know, right? Has anyone actually tested Mulligan’s output?

    Finally, how you do respond to the following report? It’s pretty damning. Is it possible Gray was a con-man in a previous life but is an honest joe now? (If so, why is that stupid ionizer site still up and running…)

    • The Ionizer is made by a company Rob was employed by nothing more, I find it completely moot in regard the current situation. The so called report is from these people, is this really a high caliber source of information? Basically a water company bashing another water company over BS like how many watts of power a unit draws. Notice there were no customers saying they were ripped off just a bunch of spec bashing, etc.

      I know Rob really believes in water ionization, he gives me that special water to drink every time I go visit him. I personally see it as a waste of money and would never buy one but I don’t stand in the way of people who want such a thing.

      This is exactly the type of thing that makes me really resent Chris for this whole mess. What in the hell does Rob working for this company have to do with anything in relation to AOCS? The answer is not a damn thing. Rob was never a con man, it is really insulting for you to say that based on the crap a fricken MLM company put out as an anti-competitor propaganda piece.

      • if you read the 33 page report, and I have, Rob Gay then became the president of that company with the hypnotist he claimed not to know. LOL come on Jack do some research before you get down on Chris D.

        • First, when did he claim not to know the guy? You do understand the nature of a timeline don’t you? If you do a bit of research into the skirmish between the two companies you might get some perspective. Perhaps kagen was upset by this?

          Again the fact that Rob sold ionizers at one time is totally meaningless. Chris is the one that brought this up among other meaningless points. When you attack a person personally in this way it is simply because the facts are not as you claim and you are using an emotional response when a logical one is a better course of action.

  22. Jack,

    Could you or Rob comment on the future of SBSS? I get that the TSP site is back up, but the SBSS site is dead as a door nail. Will the collection go on or is it dead as far as AOCS is concerned?

  23. And I thought Fukushima was a meltdown! SBSS is spewing so much radiation, everyone’s hair is falling out. What complete and total shame. My heart is broken over this:(

    • Fukushima was actually a couple of meltdowns – I need to fill out that guest survey and provide some nuclear info.

      Anyway, the silver I ordered from SBSS and TSP all arrived. It was delayed, which is understandable from a startup. It was never marketed as next day shipping of off-the-shelf inventory and the company repeatedly pointed out that sales greatly exceeded expectations (which would typically cause delays). And what kind of prepper gives a rat’s a$$ if the silver you order gets here tomorrow or next month? Are you worried you have to bug out tomorrow with your silver stash to avoid the jack-booted thugs sent after implementation of Agenda 21?

      Let’s all act like the group we claim to be – not a bunch of tinners. The Duane post screamed of logical holes. It reminded me of one of those sites that promises an awesome set of information if you just sign up, then a labyrinth of links to get to the content. It kinda reminded me of the tone he uses in the lead-up to the actual info for Sons of Liberty Academy as well as some of the arguments made in the SOLA videos. Lead you down a road toward a conclusion, then logical leap to conclusion without connecting a few necessary dots.

      Please pause while I put my tin hat on. Ok… there. Maybe Chris lost it emotionally when his net worth (measured in USD) took a swift kick to the family jewels. If you’re all-in on silver (as Duane claims to be) and it drops like it did, you’re not having a good day. If you also have something else working on the sideline, then you could very easily jump right over an edge. But what if you just wanted to drum up some business with a good ‘ol schoolyard fight, get the folks who are your followers to take your illogical argument elements and spread them about the internets. You might also bring a few people who have learned of you through Rob & Jack over to your fold, tight against you in their anger over your allegations. Maybe they’ll buy something through your affiliate links like “37 Things you MUST Hoard”. Yeah, no one went off the deep end there. Just REALLY strange that this goes down right after gold/silver tank from their highs.

      Jack, now that the spinner (or tinner) bait has been dragged in front of us, please do what you can to let us know specifics on what you were talking about.

  24. The solution for this is simple:
    1. SBSS dies that are not been used anymore, like the “Debt and death” for example, should be destroyed in Chris presence.
    2. AFTER all SBSS order will be fulfilled, ALL SBSS dies should be destroyed in Chris presence.
    3. Chris and the Mulligan Mint depart ways.
    – End of story –

  25. Thank you Jack. As usual, you cut through the bs and give it to us straight. I can’t tell you how much I admire you and your clear, concise explanations. Thank you for being you.

  26. I’d like to chime in on the positive and say that although it took longer to get my silver order than I expected, I DID get it (and no delivery time was promised, so no foul there). What I got delivered in 45 days was a quality product and EXACTLY as advertised. We should be happy that demand is such that the orders ran a little late. From my perspective, I see no reason to doubt the integrity of the TSP Mint partnership or Rob. In fact, I think I’m going to order some more, now that prices are down!

    • Interesting, but still hard to cut through the emo to read the substance. I do agree that the old dies should be broken, and I would frankly loose all respect if Rob reran the old editions, but I’m seeing zero indication that the old dies are being used. I’d be curious what the details of the copyright arrangement was. Think about a copyright holder of a books relationship to a publisher if you are wondering what I’m getting at.

  27. I withdrew my silver from Lakota today because of the uncertainty. I will update everyone when I get it back (assuming I do). Three concerns besides the drama have been 1) no one answered when I called 2) I have yet to receive a call back 3) there is no physical address of the bank. It seams Lakota is owned by AOCS, Rob, whatever, that’s fine but they should be more transparent about it I would trust them more that way. I am going to assume I receive my deposit like I did last time I withdrew and try not to loose sleep over it. When I do I will update, if I don’t in a week I will update.

  28. Its a shame that two guys with a great message have come to this impasse. I stand by you Jack and trust the decision that you have made. You are one of the few people out there offering solutions. You are the only person that I have invested my own money in. Like you, I am really good judge of character. Many, many years in the automotive business have trained me how to spot people with nefarious intentions. I don’t believe Chris is one of those people, but I am on the outside looking in and it is not my place to pass judgement.

    • I also don’t think Chris is a bad guy. I think he was legitimately pissed off about poor service (JUST LIKE I WAS) and handled it foolishly.

  29. I did not read all the posts above. Not really interested in the dramma.
    All I will say is that I was excited to place my order with TSP and when it took some time and then some to get it, instead of crying and complaining, I let that run on the moral credit you have build up mixed with a pinch of patience. Needless to say when my order finally showed up and my wifey saw it she got more excited about that cool copper coin than the rest of it 🙂
    Thanks for keeping us in a loop. See you at the expo next week!

  30. only commented once and it wasn’t allowed? i know you will read this and i don’t care if you allow it! but your just a third party cheerleader for one side!! let rob speak!! and stop acting as his mouth piece!! this is between Chris and rob ain’t it?

    • Well I don’t remember your comment and frankly I don’t give a shit if you don’t like that it wasn’t approved. For all I know the akismet filter ate it but again I don’t give a shit.

      And frankly fing NO this isn’t just between Rob and Chris. Your fricken vaulted guru Chris made this MY PROBLEM when he was so damn unprofessional in his public discourse over a business matter that should have remained between as you put it Rob and him.

      Chris’ little tantrum on his blog resulted in hundreds of emails to ME from MY CUSTOMERS and I am sure this is the case with other AOCS partners. But Chris didn’t fricken think about that did he, he acted like the adult child he apparently is. Oh he tried to contact me AFTER he pulled this shit, what an unprofessional thing to do! I mean do you even get how unprofessional that is?

      This issue should have been handled between Chris and Rob as you say, I agree, Chris instead made it a public event, in doing so he put my reputation at risk and so I am called to respond.

      Frankly his behavior should earn him no less then a solid fing kick in the ass! Third party cheerleader my ass, this is MY BUSINESS and MY BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP that Chris has harmed, so it is damn fing well my business. Now go back to waiting for the sky to fall and convincing yourself your silver will make you a multimillionaire when it does, that is what Chris is teaching you right?

      • That last sentence is pretty interesting given that you host something called the SURVIVAL Podcast…

        (Yeah, yeah, I know – you’re not preaching TEOTWAWKI. I think… I mean, I don’t listen to your podcast.)

        So why the heck are YOU buying silver?

        BTW, count me in with probably numerous others who bought 5 of your ants only because you seemed cool enough with Chris and because I wanted a copper D&D. Perhaps that pisses you off, but it’s the truth.

        FWIW, and I’m sure you couldn’t give a shit, but you pretty much lost me with that “guru” comment. You’re basically insinuating Duane is some kind of Svengali and we’re all “followers”. Speaking for myself, I’m a true believer – in silver. I don’t follow anyone. Chris’ videos have helped changed my life (he was just one of several factors), but I wouldn’t follow him anywhere or “do his bidding”. He’s a really smart guy and I feel like I owe him quite a bit for helping wake me up. You’re starting to sound bitter and using Chris’ “tantrum” as an excuse.

        • The fact you ask why I am buying silver makes my point about following an “all in” guru for me.

          I have taught people to insure their wealth with 5-10% of it in PMs since day one. That is the answer right there. Insuring your wealth.

  31. I have been been customer of and have been following the mint story from before day one. …my recent concern is the way orders are being shipped, I think they are having to sell more orders to buy the silver to produce current orders…I find that risky. I had already decided not to buy anymore coins mint direct from AOCS and to go through a 3rd party in the future way before the latest blow-up. The only side I am taking in this post is the prudent customer’s side. Stuff happens, I know someone who lost about 2k when Precious Metals house went belly up recently…it happens.

    • Every person much choose who they buy from for their own reasons. I am fine with your choice but careful making claims like the one above, you have no evidence of this and it is a very damaging accusation. It isn’t how the mint is running, again I have been on site more then once and am going back very soon.

      • Have you been a customer since August? I have. Have you seen every YouTube video posted by AOCS customers. I have. Did 5 of your last 20 coins arrived all scratched and dinged after 6 weeks of having your money tied up? Mine did. I don’t care if what you do.. I’m just saying be careful with your listeners money..they trust you.

        • If you have quality concerns fine, I get that. The problem I have is your claim that they are buying the next run with the last runs orders. You are making a really serious and false accusation there. It is also one that you have absolutely no facts to support. Oh and have I been an AOCS customer since August of 2012? No, you are right about that. I have been an AOCS partner for LONGER THEN THAT and I have been a customer since 2008.

  32. VERY Minor issue I found on the TSP mint website: The “Shop by Category” menu shows the Crazy Horse proof-like round when you choose “Brilliant Uncirculated” and doesn’t show any Crazy Horse round at all if you choose “Proof-Like.” I know it’s splitting hairs with everything else going on today, just wanted to let you know.

  33. MS Whatever your just pissed the SSSB outsold you buy 100x I only bought the ant to get the SBSS copper and now you attack crhis like this so not cool. you and Rob Gay and go be gay together!

    • Actually I was very happy for Chris’ success. I know when you are bitter little spiteful human it is easy to think everyone else is the same way but trust me your the one with that emotion here, not me. I am beyond happy for anyone that enjoys success. Chris acted like a child here and when he did he did damage to far more then just Rob, he took no concern for that and took a business matter and made it into a public spectacle. I don’t know how you can defend such actions. He also didn’t outsell me by 100x, more like 5-6x, which is just awesome, too bad he squandered it by acting like such a child. Again I am sure if he had been professional in ending the partnership Rob would have worked with him to do so in a mutually beneficial way.

      I also didn’t attack Chris, I responded to his childish outburst because his tantrum effects my business with my customers, something that he clearly didn’t care about. Oh by the way, I introduced Chris and Rob, I vouched for Chris, I had him on the show more then once, I promoted him, so a fing courtesy contact BEFORE this outburst would also have been professional and respectful to me.

      Don’t think the benefits of Chris being on TSP were on a one way street. Clearly you have never run a business and don’t realize how unprofessional and frankly uncool the actions of your guru were.

    • Why even bother to comment if you just intend to be childish? Btw who is “SSSB” and who did they out sell? I don’t care who is in the wrong but Chris acted like a child. On the other hand Rob has delivered all my SBSS and TSP mint orders so I can’t complain. Btw I ordered more for TSP mint after I read Chris’s high school like rant because I have faith in Rob and Jack. That being said I hope Chris takes a midol and mends the business relationship because his designs are great but I won’t hold my breath.

    • I was one of those who contributed to Chris’s success by buying SBSS medallions. Chris, instead of showing gratitude on the last silver update, accused us small stackers of gaming the system, because allegedly we placed several small orders in order to receive SBSS copper medallions. This while nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, he made it abundantly clear that he doesn’t care if he loses our business. It was a complete slap in the face and still he has not offered an apology. Now we have to take his word above the word of others, including Rob, and rally around him? I am sorry, but I stand with Jack on this issue. Chris, right or wrong, could have handled the situation better. He has caused immeasurable damage now.

  34. You know I love Jack and Chris. I am a proud member of msb and silver Sheild. Hope you don’t blow your top at me, but jack don’t you think if you had 250,000 being held you would be pissed?

    • @Jason if you read my post you will see that I was pretty pissed myself. I am not upset with Chris for being pissed off, I am not upset because he terminated the relationship. I am pissed for the way he turned this business matter into a public spectacle.

      You do understand the difference right? What Chris did was beyond unprofessional and it was damaging to me and other AOCS partners who worked very hard though this period and did so in good faith. Chris knew what he was doing and he acted in spite with concern for no one but his own ego. He didn’t even do it in concern or with concern for his own customers.

      How would Rob fill the pending SBSS orders if Chris were given the dies as requested? When Chris pulled this shit, wouldn’t Rob have had the legal right to just refund all SBSS pending orders and screw the people out of their silver, most of you want the coins more then your money back right.

      Rob will likely at some point saw the dies in half, I know I would but for now there is business to fill and don’t you get that they really are not Chris’ customers they are Rob’s as he is the only legally obligated to them, do you not get that?

      Did Chris really need to go advertising his side of the story full of half truth and misleading innuendos? If someone came to you to sever a partnership and demanded 100% control of how it would end in direct opposition to obligations you already had incurred would you have just said okay?

      Chris’ actions were beyond stupid in every imaginable way from a pure business standpoint. Now as I said before Chris is far from stupid, so emotions are the culprit here. One is anger, and in some ways he has a right to be angry. There is another one though, it is guilt for backdoor discussions and what can only be called circumvention. That my friend is all on Chris and it is part of why he took such an unprofessional and foolish approach here.

      If he was using his brain at all he would have contacted Rob, apologized for being so demanding and asked to work out the situation in a way that works for both of them, had that failed he would have had an arbitrator brought in.

      Hell if he will stop being a fricken hateful asshole, I would imagine I could sit down with he and Rob as said arbitrator and hammer out a deal in an hour or so.

      • Jack, you made me put my tinfoil thinking cap back on with:
        “When Chris pulled this shit, wouldn’t Rob have had the legal right to just refund all SBSS pending orders and screw the people out of their silver, most of you want the coins more then your money back right.”

        Yes, Rob would have been forced to just refund the money if he had to destroy the dies. What if that’s what Chris WANTED to happen more than the continued good name of SBSS? Then all of Chris’s followers who have had too much colloidal silver kool-aid could repurchase silver (flush with their refunds) at a 30% discount from the price in February – from a different perspective they could purchase 50% more ounces for the same financial input.

        I can buy the childish rant meme… makes sense on the surface. But shooting a seemingly promising business venture in the foot doesn’t. So I’m just positing that Duane might have been motivated by the same idea I have had multiple times… “Damn I sure do wish I could get the cash back I spent on silver in February and spend it today on silver and gold.”

        I recognize this is entirely speculative, but for those who are swayed by such things, it can’t hurt to have a little balance.

  35. I appreciate the openness and upfront direct discussion of what is happening here. I would hate to see this fallout destroy or undermine the potential of AOCS. Having infighting in the liberty and alt currency movement does everyone a disservice. Jacks approach to how they could have ended their relationship could have put a positive spin on the situation for every party involved. Im sure there is more at play than whats being told. Its always hard not to let emotion get the best of you. Jack I hope you can elaborate more and let us know the full story at some point. Perhaps even in the show.

    • The invitation has been extended. I imagine Rob is putting out tons of fires due to Chris’ behavior today. Somethings in business should not be made public, this honestly has made Rob’s job of getting all SBSS orders taken care of harder.

  36. Jack I totally get the point on the dies. Maybe he could have handled it different. I do know when the mint couldn’t find my money for four days on the wire transfer I freaked out.

  37. Chris Duane is a fraud. Plain and simple.

    The man is a used car salesmen and a shyster. Here is my take on the him. He misses what he walked away from. Supposedly, he had this multimillion dollar lifestyle (which I don’t doubt) and he “walked away” from it as he so aptly points out….just about every time he has/does an interview. How many times in his videos or interviews or SS reports does he tell you that he “walked away” from his fortune? How many? Dam near every interview I have ever heard him give to someone online. What does that tell you? It’s like a crack addict who has come clean….that person will struggle every day for the rest of his life because of what he had in the past. I think he regrets what he walked away from. He saw a chance to make money in a different or more honest way and he thought he would “fool” every one else or be the first one to cash in on the silver market.

    Another point. Chris Duane can never admit fault. This guy will not own up to anything that is his fault. And if you challenge this guy? Watch out. He will peg you as a toxic person or someone who just does not get it. That sounds eerily like a cult leader. He also “gathers” others to do his bidding. Think he does all of the work? Oh… He lets you know all the time about how much “work” he has put into his videos and reports. Maybe so Duane…but that is your venture. Why should we have sympathy for you? It’s what YOU choose to do. If it is such a pain in the ass and such an effort…..why do you do it?

    And is it really your work? IS it ALL Chris Duane’s original work and research? Or do you simply synthesize information? Because a lot of what you do is gather information and repackage it as your own ideas. Like you are some enlightened individual who has all of the answers. My God, you’d think no one else ever picked up a book or did any research.

    How’s that “Silver Shield Group” working out for you now? I heard it was going to be the most powerful civilization on the planet. Your own words.

    How’s that working out for you?

    • Exactly!

      E.g. in the last silver update he accused us small stackers of gaming the system by placing small orders in order to receive more SBSS copper medallions. He also made it clear that its is due to these small orders, coming from 80% of those who bought directly from the mint, that the mint cannot keep up. In fact, he made it clear that he was more than willing to lose our business (which as alleged represented 20% of total sales volume). When we responded at YouTube, our comments were deleted; left, right and center, and we got banned and branded as “toxic people,” despite keeping it civilized.

      Up to date, he has not offered a single apology, and has not once said that part of the delays experienced at the Mulligan Mint could have been because he was releasing SBSS medallions in a too fast and furious fashion. This while many of us small stackers, who were hoping to build up complete SBSS medallion collections, could barely keep up with all the releases (and the rest lol).

      The fact of the matter is that Chris has completely alienated a large portion of his supports’ base in the last silver update. Even if SBSS sales kicked off on April the 15th as promised, I highly doubt he would have seen sales back on the same levels as previously. In fact, my gut feeling tells met that he knew he destroyed a large portion of his supporters’ base in that last silver update, and that a diversion, instead of an apology was warranted. He then deleted the relevant silver update and decided to storm into Rob’s office, acting in the way he did. Rob of course responded in the way he did, because it might have caught him completely off guard. In my opinion, he responded in a natural way, instinct driven by a strong sense of wanting to protect what is his, whether too much emotion was involved or not. I mean, who wouldn’t give someone the cold eye if he/she demanded 100%, instead of showing a willingness to work out the details? It is after all no secret that Rob and his team have a lot of money tied up at the mint. This is why Rob later in a meeting with staff as alleged, when he was calm(er), mentioned that he would pay back Chris the 1500 ounces owned to him.

      Now, in my opinion, Chris has caused immeasurably damage by taking this public, he has not only tarnished SBSS medallions and his image in the process, but that of the whole silver community and the businesses that support it, especially businesses that are dependent on the Mulligan Mint and AOCS (and vice versa). He has now done more damage than the best of our enemies could have done.

      My gut feeling tells me that his main aim was to create a diversion so that he could start a fresh at another mint and release more SBSS medallions (despite the damage done through his last silver update). He is bargaining on the fact that we will rally around him based on an alleged injustice (or criminal acts) that have been committed by Rob, so that he will enjoy the same support as previously. I mean, who is the major partner that will come aboard as Chris mentioned in previous updates? I think that will be telling in the days to come.

      Now, I am by no stretch of the imagination taking Rob’s side, because there might be more than meets the eye, but I don’t agree with the manner in which Chris has responded and/or acted. To be brutally honest, this is more than unsettling and worrying, especially coming from someone who claims to be able to identify psychopaths and toxic people.

      • I completely missed that silver update… I’m usually a few days/weeks behind unless he has a sensational enough headline to reel me in immediately. Is there still a link to that update anywhere? Youtube?

        The silver update has the same tone that the guys at Threat Journal take on occasion – “OMG, the sky is falling and we are littlerally at TEOTWAKI, like at 4:30PM today! Buy something from me now!”

        I’m not saying you can’t find a jewel of some info there, just like Alex Jones. It’s just sensationalist, which i typically relate with some level of dishonesty. Not necessarily nefarious dishonesty, more like half-truths for manipulative purposes dishonesty.

        I often have engineers tell me a solution I recommend to save money isn’t good enough. I respond with: “It meets the STANDARD. If the standard is not good enough, change it. If it is, move aside and let me make business decisions.” Same holds true here. I would respond to the argument that the small stackers are just doing that level to get the copper with the following:
        Set the minimum order higher, idiot. Otherwise, shut your trap and send me my copper coin.
        Note: Mulligan Mint did send me the copper, in the same package as the silver.

      • Wow Paul more to the story huh? I will tell you the “major partner” is a guy named Gus who worked for Rob as a key employee. You know the guy he pointed out that quit as if that guy quitting was an indicator that something was wrong? That is the “key partner” an employee who is trying to use inside information to circumvent existing agreements.

        I had no idea he accused small stackers as being part of the problem, his status just fell further for me! You know all the distributors he is bitching about would be exactly the solution anyway to level inventory flow for small buyers.

        I mean we learned a thing or two on pricing. We no longer do 2.99 over spot then add a member discount of a dollar more for MSB Members on small orders (less then 5) it is almost impossible to make a profit on and with shipping I don’t get buying one or two coins anyway. But I am not about to blame small orders for our problems or our failure initially to factor them into a pricing model that is OUR FAULT.

        Please stick around here at TSP, I think you will like our proactive approach to life, we focus on solutions not problems. I think you will enjoy our conservative approach to PMs as well.

        Here is another ironic thing I found about Chris. When I first had him on the show he shit all over anything remotely connected to “numismatic value” and as soon as he has a product it becomes a huge selling feature of his medallions? Sorry but WTF changed?

        I mean we plan to do our next coin as a limited edition (based on time not volume letting the market decide) but we will keep the price level and my main reason I tell people to buy is well, it is silver at a good price for silver the end done.

        We take pride in the design and many stackers like to include custom stuff in their stacks and we cater to that but I not about to promise you crap like you can sell TSP silver in a few months on eBay for double spot or anything like that.

        • abstract philosophy -meet- the profit motive!

          I totally forgot about Chris bashing numismatic with the ‘constitutional silver’ push.

          Somewhere along the way, unique/limited design became a ‘get rich quick’ scheme. I think that’s when the emotional roller coaster began (I need my coins.. NOW!!!!!).

          That greed/fear profit/loss thing is DRAMA x 10.

          (I should know.. I’m a bitcoin miner and a former commodities trader.. good lord the drama..)


        • Really too bad… the Freedom Girl was one helluva beautiful coin. Now there’s a good back-story to her as well, just like anything worth something.

          And by continuing the discussion about small stackers, I didn’t mean to imply that I had seen it either. I’m going strictly off what Paul said. I did go back to my email update, clicked the link, which led me to the following “update” with an embedded YouTube video. That video has now been deleted. Here is the link for the update (not hyperlinking to give him a link… copy/paste if you want to see it – or the lack thereof):

          My bullshit antennae are fully raised at this point. I am no longer unbiased and would have to have some really solid fact from Duane (who always sounded a bit like a kook with his all-in mantra, omminy omminy omminy you’ll be silver rich omminy omminy omminy) to pull me back anywhere near to his side of the story.

          Again, too bad, too bad, too bad. I was holding back with a chunk of cash waiting on the new super-whamodyne release they were going to have. Now the prices tanked, so I’m buying again (though saving some for the new TSP rounds). Duane lost my business, Jack & Rob will get more of it. Jack, don’t Duane on us here, buddy… 🙂

        • I will never Duane on you buddy! I can tell you if Chris had worked with AOCS the way I did in this time things would be a lot different for everyone.

  38. Well, only after threatening them with letting you know what was going on with the lack of communication, order delays etc. did I receive my ant coins. And I received a copper with them. But I bought the freedom girls the first night of issue because you suggested it. I stayed up till one a.m. To be in the first 1500 so that I qualified for the free copper, and then a second one if they surpassed another number. I emailed them, called them, and emailed again with no replies. They can’t seem to be bothered with customers who’s money they’re hanging onto. I finally got through via phone call to a girl who said that she was going to make sure that my freedom girls were on their way and that they would also throw in a Lakota copper coin or credit me $7.50 towards my next order. I of course said the Lakota would be fine.i received my freedom girls maybe a month ago and still haven’t seen a single copper. I’m done holding my breath. If these guys have personal spats, they should keep them personal, and not screw with our money. I’m guessing I will never see those coppers, because I’m not going to waste any more energy or time emailing someone who doesn’t reply. I’m extremely disappointed in this company and even signed up to be an affiliate to advertise on my websites and blog. Needless to say, I will not be doing that. I wouldn’t want the storm of angry customers that their epic fail has produced. They did exactly what they warn others about on their video, played the market with our money. So if you want tolet them investigate where my coppers and their false promises went please be my guest. Until I see them, I won’t be furthering THEIR cause. Am a big fan of yours jack, as well as a supporting member of the brigade. But I give this company two thumbs down.

    • As a counterpoint, that is 180 degrees out of phase with my experience.
      I was also curious about my orders, which took weeks to ship.

      I entered a “live chat” on 2 occasions and the girl who responded checked on my order. On the first order (TSP), she explained they were crushed and gave a wide range as an estimated ship date “should be going out in the next 10 days”. The girl who responded regarding SBSS order took my information and followed up later in the day. Same story, but a longer range of ship dates.

      So my customer service experience was solid. The only downer was the wait, which they accurately addressed on two occasions.

      • Glad to see someone had a good experience. I sure as hell didnt. I got the runaround for months, and no responses, with the exception of the one time I called and probably the same girl accidentally answered the phone. But everything she told me was B.S. said my order was set to go out the next day acknowledging that mine was one of the first in. I didn’t receive anything for another month and a half, and then like I said, no coppers, let alone the Lakota they said they throw in.

        • I didn’t call. I didn’t write. I didn’t rant. I didn’t rave. I didn’t contact customer service or complain to Jack. My coins came anyway. It took a little while but I had other things to worry about. No blood pressure issues here.

        • Never talked to anyone…. and yes there was a delay…. but received all my orders and am VERY pleased. When the silver is a great design that holds great value you can expect to get in line…. happy to wait and happy with all my coins. I would happily wait again for these beautiful coins. And I also have alot of respect for Jack Spirko and his Integrity.

        • Let me say first I am not saying this was you but I got a few with similar stories by email. Three were full of it. I mean absolutely lying to me so this does go both ways at times.

          This is what I mean, I get an email, saying it has been “months” by the way we launched in Feb it is April, the site has only been live for 2.5 months right now, and it was close for three weeks. Anyway this email came in 3 weeks after launch so months wasn’t possible.

          Still I was pissed, I emailed Will and Alicia and stomped the hell out of them, with basically saying long lead times are one thing, ignoring a customer is another. What comes back? An email chain between Will and the customer where he was acknowledged no less then 7 times.

          Okay the service sucked and I still balled out AOCS but I balled out that and two other customers that did the same thing. Again I get “I have gotten no response” then I get an email chain that went back and forth 5-10 times over several days.

          Not saying you did this, God knows they screwed plenty up and I had to stand on them during this growth phase. I just say this here to point out, this is a two way street and some customers flat out lied to me about responses from AOCS.

          Funny thing when you forward that email chain to the customer and ask “are you sure you never got any response at all”? they just stop responding to the conversation.

          Folks please be careful when you say things like “no response at all” especially in an email to me. If I believe you I am going to crack someones skull on the other end of it and I am happy to do so but it harms my relationship with my partners if I am lied to about this type of thing.

          When that happens I have to start taking a much softer approach possibly when I should be taking a tough one.

          We all know about the boy that cried wolf right? Keep in mind with a business several customers doing so might harm a customer who never did. Perhaps like Gerard above? Likely he is 100% factual here, but after being lied to many times, I have to be skeptical when a claim of zero response is made.

          In fact I have to say every time that happened I was provided with documentation showing it to be false. AOCS was still doing a poor job of service but the no response at all claim has never once checked out.

          I would also ask Gerard did you email me about the missing copper, did you notify AOCS about it? If so did it get addressed?

          I can’t fix what I am not told about and there isn’t enough info here in a comment to track an order and correct an still pending issue, you know my email I give it out every day.

  39. There is a shadow that overrides this emotional outbreak. I’m not sure anyone has considered it, but I suspect part of Chris’s reaction was fueled, probably subconsciously, by his painful ordeal with a previous partner. He was humiliated and scandalized by the stock trading scheme that a “trusted partner” sucked him into. Even though Chris was cleared of wrong doing, he had to endure doubt and recrimination from fellow contemporaries, as well as seeing his name in print and associated with the scandal.

    I suspect that when the mint started running further and further behind schedule, his fear of being taken in yet again by a slick operator (no judgement on Rob here, just postulating what Chris may have been thinking), he went into panic mode and lost his cool.

    It is self evident that when someone you trust, screws you over, it can make you distrustful in general. When this happens, your mind, in trying to protect you, is constantly looking for patterns that could indicate more dishonesty. In searching for traps, we always find what we search for, even if its illusion.

    Having seen this exact scenario played out in the life of one of my employers, it imprinted strongly on me. Is that what happened to Chris? It’s impossible to say for sure but it does encompass the classic symptoms; a strong, over-the-top emotional response, followed by illogical charges and accusations, with no consideration for the damage that could be caused to others.

    Goodkind’s Sword of Truth: Wizards third rule- Passion (emotion) rules reason, for better or for worse.

    • Doesn’t it seem odd to anyone but me that every “scheme” Chris gets involved with, it’s always the other guy at fault and Chris is the hero?

      As for this “stock trading scheme”, what, precisely, do you know about it? IMHO, Chris is an “operator”. Most used-car salesmen are. Hell, most NEW car salesman are! Multilevel marketing, car sales, teaching people to flip foreclosures. Seems like Chris is always involved in “shady” things rather than anything serious.

      It’s always everyone else’s fault with him, but never with the great Chris Duane, savior of the people and the Second Coming of the Lord. The guy is full of himself. I recall when he was playing around with Rob Gray and some stupid contest to ride around in a private jet. Who the eff cares about flying around in a private jet when you are claiming that baby-eating psychopaths are taking over the planet!? Chris is an elite wannabe. I’m just surprised that so many of you are so gullible as to be taken in by this scammer.

      Chris has NEVER apologized for anything. Chris has NEVER admitted fault to anything. Chris is NEVER wrong. He said that silver would not go below $26. When called on this, his retort is: “you can’t buy physical silver for less than that right now.” That is a LIE, but beyond that, it just shows the kind of person Chris is. Personally, I think he IS the psychopath he warns us all about!

  40. Sorry, but I’m lacking compassion for Chris Duanes little sob story. He can choke on that violin he’s playing for himself as far as I’m concerned.
    He’s butthurt because he’s owed 1,500oz of Ag? I’m pretty damn sure his customer base is waiting on more than that from the mint.
    His feeble attempt at throwing himself a pity party makes me feel all warm on the inside. Seriously.
    He tells his readers: “Good luck getting yours, I was told I’m not getting mine” Nowhere did I read: “Guys/Gals, please bare with me. I will make this right. I apologize for the fact that I stood idly by while your rounds were shipped to 3rd party retailers…after you had already paid for them.”
    Pfffft. Cry me a river Chris. You are just as much to blame as MM/CftC. You were just concerned with the $$$.
    Stop hiding behind your crocodile tears and admit you screwed up.
    Quit acting like an only child that just his little wee-wee stepped on.

  41. I cant beleve you people did’nt see this coming a long time ago
    i know a con when i see one, and i saw this one comeing a mile away as soon as he started talking about selling a product ‘ I took off like a scared rabbit, hears a statement i bet yyou wont hear from this duane guy but i use it all the time “If you just bide you time,deception will reveal itself”

  42. As a fellow filmmaker I know what Chris is going through. Writers are very emotional. We tend to suffer through creative inertia, especially after success. Frustration builds and eventually we do crazy shit “just to mix it up” even if its terrible for us in the long road. But deep down we don’t care, we’ll do it anyway. The reward for new material is worth the suffering. Chris is clearly going through a transformation, a “paradigm shift” as he would call it, albeit a very destructive one. Perhaps it was a mistake for Chris to get into the production of silver. He’s not a businessman, therefore he should stay with making videos. After Chris’ meltdown, for every second Rob stays silent, Rob looks that much more professional. Chris needs to take a deep breath and reassess his career in silver. He’s obviously very passionate, just not very smart.

    It’s fair to ask for the dies to be destroyed. It’s fair to ask for a financial settlement. And it’s fair to part ways. End of story.

    • Walker, WTF are you talking about? Chris bobbled a BUSINESS DEAL! This has nothing to do with “writer’s block” or some hipster/creative type wanting to “mix it up a bit”. Jesus H. Christ, dude, YOU are very creative to come up with this story, quite frankly.

      Chris is a GOOD video editor and is creative in the sense of a marketeer..but calling him a “writer and filmmaker” is a stretch and, quite frankly, an insult to serious writers and filmmakers.

  43. I see a lot of comments about how this little bit of drama has ‘damaged x or y’..

    a big fat IMHO..

    First, Chris is a man. Not a messiah. Like any man, he has his strengths and his weaknesses. Like any man, lets celebrate his strengths and show compassion for his weakness. And like any man, lets treat anything he says with respect and a healthy skepticism.

    Anger at any ‘ fallen leader’ is really anger at ourselves.. because we ‘believed’ too much.. without verifying.

    Second, none of this ‘damages’ any causes.. this is just ambulance chasing lawyer speak. What someone teaches, says or promotes.. is either TRUE or its not. If its TRUE, it doesn’t matter if they’re a liar, cheat and a thief.. its still true.

    If its NOT true, it doesn’t matter if they’re the reincarnation of Mother Theresa.. its still NOT true.

    Each individual community member.. of whatever community.. needs to take the responsibility for figuring out WHAT IS TRUE.. and stop lazily relying on ‘gurus’ to do the mental heavy lifting for them.

    In other words.. its not true BECAUSE Chris, Rob or Jack said it.. they’re all men and they can all make mistakes.

    To quote Reagan 😉 – trust but verify. So that if something turns out to be wrong, your response isn’t to try and scapegoat responsibility onto your ‘guru’.

    YOU are responsible.

    • I almost agree dude. Chris’ rant is damaging to me. Given AOCS did have a lot of problems, did screw up, etc. Then given I made damn sure every single TSP customer go their order as fast as I personally could. Then given I stayed engaged during this entire period requiring daily updates from AOCS/Mulligan and made on site visits, etc.

      I mean I know sometimes people here may think I am “just selling” or something with the way I do things but I am not. I was deep on this from day one forward and constantly made sure the problems had legitimate reasons behind them.

      Then Chris has some emotional breakdown and in one day I get almost 500 emails of people freaked out, people by the way who got their silver who are freaked out because of stupid crap like, “it might not be real”.

      Frankly Chris has behaved like a flipping child and that does do harm when a man with influence does so if he is connected to others.

      The other thing people don’t seem to get is in a partnership (like between Rob and Chris) both partners have rights and obligations. One partner quitting doesn’t dissolve either rights or obligations. You know Rob invested about 600K, just this year to ramp up production and promote Chris’ medallions. They worked hard also to develop the dealer network that Chris is bitching about at considerable expense of time and resources. There is a reason if product is in a dealers hands shortages are mitigated and contrary to what some may believe we make our referral via dealer sales as well as direct if it is our design.

      It is also the case that Chris and I both have many people that want to buy in other nations, AOCS can’t ship to them, so establishment of dealer networks is the ONLY WAY said customers can get product.

      Chris frankly is looking to take his brand and design (both of which were co developed in a PARTNERSHIP) and go his own way, along with one of Rob’s former employees who now thinks he is going to start his own mint. Yep harm was done, now thanks to the way I run things and how hard I have worked by investing about 6 hours of my time yesterday I feel I mitigated as much of it as I could, that is 6 hours though I could have spent doing more for the audience instead of damage control or six hours I could have spent on my presentation for next weeks Self Reliance Expo.

      Insidious we agree a ton on many things, I think you are awesome really man. I also think if you could have had access to my email yesterday you would see that yes, harm was done.

      • Should have clarified Jack..

        The ‘harm’ I was talking about was the existential kind (.. the ’cause of silver’ has been damaged).

        I do realize that this has caused REAL tangible harm to Rob & you.

        Anyone questioning your handling of the TSP Mint is just being dumb, and anyone thinking that what’s going on at AOCS is fraudulent or nefarious, rather than just ‘growing pains’ needs to take off their tinfoil hat and unbunch their panties.

        Starting a business is HARD, especially one with as many steps as minting coins. Particularly when you’re also trying to do your own fulfillment instead of using a dealer network.

        Just trying to say to the people freaking out.. take a breath, nothing bad has happened to you. A ‘delay’ is not ‘harm’.

        As for you and Rob.. you have my sympathies. And as for Chris, if this is some dumb stunt to discredit AOCS and setup his own operation.. dumb move dude, this community has a long memory.

        • I’m sorry, but you talk about anyone experiencing a delay needs to take off their tin foil hat. Well guess what pal, I could give two shits about their growing pains and their personal problems, I run several businesses and I’d be out of business if I did shit the way they do. I have not received what I paid for, it’s as simple as that. False advertisement. They said the first 1500 customers on the freedom girls would get the coppers, have I received them, no, have I received a reason why? No. And I received my freedom girls long before those two had their lovers quarrel. Give me what you advertised, and what I paid for period. It’s not a damn conspiracy when I’m right. I’ve had no emails, saying oh we’re going to ship those separately. My emails to them went unanswered. It’s a really simple matter, I GOT SCREWED, GIVE ME WHAT I PAID FOR OR DONT ADVERTISE THAT YOU’RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING AND NOT FOLLOW THROUGH.

      • @Gerard (sorry wrong reply level) –

        If you reread that sentence.. it was only regarding charges of AOCS being ‘fraudulent or nefarious’. I didn’t say anything about delay complaints and tinfoil hats. But slow delivery is not ‘fraud’.

        Poor customer service is poor customer service. And obviously no one wants to do business with a company that doesn’t live up to their promises.

        If they fail to ‘make it right’ then you shouldn’t do business with them (not that I need to tell you that). 🙂

        • Yea, you don’t need to tell me that. Obviously if I have not received what was promised prior to the ant coins release, which I also bought. And I’m talking about what was promised at day one release of the freedom girls. And I received them ,after two months, but not what was promised with them. They ripped me off, plain and simple. No contact, no excuses they just decided to ignore my emails and calls,to remedy this. So in my book they suck. They can go down in flames for all I care. I’m a business man, and they failed to deliver on a business deal. It’s as simple as that.

        • You know what, no one “ripped you off”, period. People may have screwed up but no one went out of their way to rip you off out of a fricken ounce of copper. This is exactly the attitude I am talking about, and it also seems this issue stems not from my store but Chris’? If that is the case read comments by other members of his customer base, he blames you for his problems apparently.

      • @Gerard –
        I’m not trying to excuse what AOCS/MM customers have experienced. Just trying to keep the emotions from getting overheated.

        In my own case.. my ant coins w/ copper took a LONG time to show up. But before ordering I’d already read all the complaints online about delayed orders.. and decided to order anyway to support the TSP Mint opening.

        So I just put aside any expectation of seeing my coins in a hurry, and didn’t bother trying to ‘hurry’ the process by e-mail bombing MM or Jack.

        But don’t misunderstand me, if my silver had showed up without my copper.. yelling would have ensued.

        So I’m not playing apologist here.. just trying to calm things down.

    • As a little addendum..

      Even a good, well intentioned person.. can FAIL to deliver. For all sorts of reasons.. from those within their control, to those totally OUT of their control.

      This is not ‘proof’ of their ‘true intentions’.

      Where you really find out their character is when you see what they do to MAKE IT RIGHT.

  44. 1. You mention the dies, but what about the 1000+ ounces of silver he owes Chris? He told Chris that he would be getting “nothing”
    2. Chris came out with his statement (professional or not) but where is Rob’s statement? Is he hiding in Singapore?
    3. If you watch the videos with both of them video conferencing, you notice how childish and unprofessional Rob is using Devil Horn hand signals. This is especially childish when they are running behind. Maybe it’s because of the deep pockets he already has from all the preorders.
    4. There’s large order customer complaints stating they won’t get a refund but they will buy the silver back with a 5% loss. Professional? I don’t think so.
    5. Did Rob severe ties, take the money, and reopen another Mint website? Sounds a little shady.

    I’m by no means taking sides, but just like Chris’s article, this is a one sided attack on Duane. Your responses will be appreciated.

    • Well funny thing is the silver in question was silver sent to Rob by Chris not silver Rob owes Chris, did he mention that. The silver was sent with a request that it be minted into three different round for fufillment purposes. Did he mention that? BTW it was 1500 ounces. Do you know what the legal structure of a partnership is? Do you understand the investment made by Rob in the SBSS brand and that it was done as a legal partnership? Do you realize in such a partnership you don’t just walk away and demand things, that the law and the obligations in the partnership both internally and externally don’t work that way.

      No Rob is not hiding he is right at his mint working to fill all outstanding orders and told me yesterday we will speak by our actions.

      Point three is stupid, moot and not relevant and the halmark of someone with no facts, attack the person personally because you have nothing.

      Point four is poorly made no one but you can understand what you mean and besides I imagine you have no clue and are spouting 3rd or 4th party hearsay anyway.

      Point five, no, no and no. There is no other mint, Rob didn’t sever ties and in fact is willing to discuss going forward with Chris reasonably and doing a proper negotiation in how the partnership would be dissolved. AOCS sells my designs and Chris’ via dealers there is no “other website” and selling to dealers is part of the partnership agreement. What you people who act like Duane Droans don’t get is the legal rights that exist on both ends in a LEGAL PARTNERSHIP, most of you have about as much business experience as a collie dog has!

      In a LEGAL partnership where BOTH side have invested and tendered significant consideration one side doesn’t have a right to just end it on their own terms. Business and contract law do not work that way. Rob and AOCS have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to help build the SBSS brand and did so in the form of Legal Partners. The fact that people like you think Chris should just be able to “demand what is his” and then walk out shows the depth of your ignorance on well

      1. Business Ethics
      2. Business Law
      3. Partnership Structure
      4. Capital Consideration
      5. Contract Law

      Now go back to believing you will be a millionaire as soon as the dollar crashes and that you and Chris are going to buy the state of Ohio and turn it into Duaneatopia or some such nonsense.

  45. @modern, how can you say I wasn’t ripped off. And it was three coppers that I didn’t receive. I didn’t order from Chris or Tom, dick, or Harry. I ordered from a company. A company that said over 6months ago that if I bought five freedom girls I would receive x. Well I have not received x. It doesn’t matter what the product in question is. What matters is that I have not received them. Now am I supposed to keep begging a company to answer a simple email and let me know what happened. No, I’m gonna move on and say, they ripped me off. I don’t know what kind of delay can cause an order to ship out and then 6 months later the rest of the order is still m.i.a, if you want to call that a delay. Then I hope you have a delay like that and well see how you feel.

    • Again your issue then is with CHRIS not with me and fucking A but it is with Chris. The fact is Chris blames you with your small orders for his issues. If you were my customer I would be happy to help you out but you are not.

      No they didn’t rip you off, I am done and as this now clearly has NOTHING to do with TSPMint, I am done and you are too, take your complaint to Chris and see what it gets you.

      I stand by my customers, but you are not my customer and while I normally would help you out anyway at this time I am not in the mood to clean up Chris’ messes on his behalf. Burning a bridge is stupid this is another example of that.

    • Oh and based on your email, I SMELL TROLLLLLLLLLL! Wow, why didn’t I see that before!