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Kirk Wolff
Kirk Wolff
2 years ago

The average person will NEVER install a box in their house to hold their lightning node. To think so is living in fantasy land. Lightning has a fundamental requirement that is antithetical to what is needed for mass adoption. Lightning is awesome, lovely, amazing, wonderful, and lots of other positive adjectives I can’t think of, however lightning necessitates custodial wallets for the average user ala Wallet of Satoshi or Bluewallet. What is needed is the next step in evolution, layer 3: offline coins. This is otherwise known as Chauman Minted E-cash. Then Lightning can be used by full-reserve banks that can by audited by anyone by their phone and that serve the function of a mint. In the system, Bitcoin is like gold in a mine, lightning is like refined bullion, and e-cash is like 100% fine coinage. This fixes the ‘needing a lightning node in order to control your lightning sats’ problem.

How do you fix irreversible transactions and recurring charges with an offline coin? You don’t, we are solving different problems. Lightning and Bitcoin are moving away from custodial and centralized models that enable guarantees, insurance and protection from bad actors.

Do you remember the world before credit cards? You would buy store-credit with gift cards, and if you were unhappy and returned something you’d get store credit. Credit cards are like a giant store-credit system but they pay you back in fiat rather than ‘visa credits’.

Here’s the steel-man argument:

Jack, you’re heart is in the right place and you’re definitely identifying a major and unresolved problem in the crypto space. Bitcoiners claim they want to ‘replace fiat’ with bitcoin, but then ignore that in order to do so businesses and consumers are giving up many technological advances that have emerged out of this centralized system.

The Bitcoiner will say “bitcoin fixes this” about everything without even understanding all the problems they’re creating by penciling-in a landscape without any way to introduce ‘common sense’ or justified adjudication to disputes. Lets admit, one way or another, most disputes are over money and to remove any way of forcing a resolution one way or another by a mediator is a major deficiency in this new ‘trustless’ system.

Lightning is a system that solves the speed and volume problem created by the blockchain, but it doesn’t *yet* replace the adjudication and insurance provided by the credit card and the credit system. Lets be honest, the credit system isn’t exactly creating the same problem the federal reserve and fiat money does. Just because they’re run by banks doesn’t necessarily mean they’re creating a problem for the world.

Credit cards are a reputation-backed reverse-escrow account. Rather than loading up an escrow with funds for the month, they extend you credit based on your reputation. The way lightning is structured, and because its based on custody of actual virtually-physical bitcoin possession, to build a system of credit on lightning is either a novel idea or is impossible.

At this time, there are some lightning services out there that are built on the escrow concept, namely Robosats for peer-to-peer trading, and https://app.lightningescrow.io/ for everything else.

I can envision a system, based on both lightning and e-cash (lightning/online would probably be cheaper for most transactions) where you establish a credit line with a payment processor (like Block or Strike) and as an end-user at the store you have the choice of paying direct with lightning to the store (like paying cash) and taking your chances the store will guarantee their product, or use your credit line with the payment processor and get the extra assurances you presently get with Visa or MC.

Kirk Wolff
Kirk Wolff
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack Spirko

I will likewise only read the beginning and end of your response and walk away with the impression you aren’t willing to consider anything I have to say because you’re assuming I have malignant intent based on your initial misconception. Apparently my hours investment in my initial response falls on deaf ears.

CurioCaster
2 years ago

Jack,

How many sats have you earned since you value enabled your podcast?

Have you messed with any of the value enabled podcast players?

Onboarding non-technical people has been one of our hurdles with getting people to adopt using lightning to support podcasters, so this article is pretty spot on with the issues developers have with creating apps for users. One thing a user can do that provides a ton of value is to make suggestions to the app developers. We want to hear what we can do to make things more intuitive, because we don’t think quite like a normal person does. I have found many features I implement that I think are super obvious are hardly noticed by someone when I’m able to observe them using the app, so feedback is very useful for helping build an app you’ll enjoy.

MickLightning
MickLightning
2 years ago

Good points on both sides.

As an early adopter I would not mind paying a restaurant on the lightning network, as in most cases I have already become a satisfied customer before I get the bill. Even IF I got a bill, such as take-out/delivery, BEFORE the fact I was satisfied, it is a very limited risk and liability on my part. If dissatisfied, I would likely not lose my house over the “lost money”, I would just not recommend them in my circle of influence.
As use of the lightning network in smaller transactions with limited liability gains traction, it will eventually grow to larger transactions in other fields.
Incentives on the part of a business to customers who pay in crypto may help jumpstart the adoption.
I see a bright future and less government control.