Episode-1320- PermaEthos is Coming and John Bush on Bitcoin — 98 Comments

  1. Well AZ allows raw milk relatively easily, and there’s a huge raw milk/ real food movement here. Would be a good second or third farm location.

    • So does WA, we have it in our stores here, sells for $10 to $11 a gallon. Not sure that is the most important criteria though 🙂

  2. Wow! Super excited that PermaEthos will be just down the country road from me.
    There is huge potential in WV and many of us are working hard to educate people about diet and nutrition. There are only a few places to buy pastured meat so most of us have to go to a bordering state to find it. I think you can sell raw cheese and other products, but not milk. There is a pretty big Farmers Market downtown near the football and baseball stadiums. The people are very nice and everyone owns a gun or twenty. The land is very fertile but most of the youth know more about meth than growing melons.
    I will definitely be signing up for the PDC and attending anything I can.

  3. Jack, Is Geoff giving you the discount for the online PDC like last year for MSB members?

    • Where? I’ve gone through twice now and haven’t heard it. Could definitely be my problem but I’d like to hear about it as I’m planning on taking Geoff’s PDC, and possibly yours too. Thanks for all you do Jack.

      • I plan on doing the SP PDC but also plan on doing Geoff’s. I also didn’t hear mention of an MSB discount for Geoff’s – maybe I have bad ears. Is there a code to enter when registering for Geoff’s course to get the MSB discount?

  4. Man. I’m disappointed that the ability to invest and see a return has gone by the wayside, but holy crap this new model is amazing. I don’t suppose you’ll be giving the MSB first crack at the Permaethos PDC?

    • Alright, that coinmap site is fantastic. I had NO IDEA how many businesses in the KCK/KCMO area were taking Bitcoin already. Including, hilariously (to me at least), a bunch of Little Caesars.

  5. Jack,

    I’ll give you $250 for your online PDC right now. Just tell me how. I’m also seriously interested in any earthworks courses, especially if you’re going to be building dams.

  6. Hope MSB has first crack. Id sign up today for this PDC. Timing and idea is amazing. Im looking for land down south right now and this will fit perfectly into the plans.

    • You know what, great idea! I was asked if we should discount the PDC to the MSB and I said no, we are raising funds for PE and that needs to be done. But first rights to sign up, hell yes, thanks I am so tired my brain is missing on a cylinder or two.

    • Agreed, I’d sign up right now if there were a way. I do not want to miss out on this, or miss out on being a “founding member.” Any idea when you will start signing people up?

      • We won’t open sign ups until two things happen.

        One the corporate filing is done. I do not want any monies paid from this to me or TSP, this has to go to PE Inc. We are still nailing down a few things on that.

        Two we can say with confidence the first part of the PDC will be available by ____________ date.

        Don’t get too worried with 1,000 spots I am sure it will take at least a few days or so to sell them all. Frankly I hope we do sell them all.

  7. My brain just exploded!

    This is the bomb digity. I took Geoffs PDC online and I will certainly be taking Jacks as well. This will be perfect for my wife to get what I have been trying to explain to her. She wwatched the PDC DVDs with me but I think she needs her “own” class without my input to let the tumblers click into place.

    Its almost unbelievable how so many incredible things are falling into place. Awesome stuff Jack, awsome stuff!

    I cant wait to be a part of this.

  8. OH and I also wanted to say about your subscribers video idea: YouTube has just recently instituted paid subscription video channels. This might not work for you for a myriad of reasons but it is out there.

  9. Well, this new PermaEthos model will likely provide be the first PDC I invest in (not for lack of interest mind you, simply lack of access and such significant amounts of disposable income). I want to eventually take Geoff’s online PDC, and Ben Falk’s PDC, but I first really dug into permaculture here at home with TSP, and it only seems right to clock my first “official” 72 hours with Jack and Jo.

    In typical Jack fashion, he’s set up one of the most dynamic experiments we have going in our worldwide permaculture community. He’ll be providing video, 72-hour certification, and a open-source business model? For $250? I just wish I could pay now to reserve my spot!

    Please keep us posted…this is the most exciting thing TSP has done yet!

  10. Do you want pastured poultry and pork pricing information from areas other than WV?

  11. Jack,
    How did you like landing at the Charleston airport? That runway comes out of nowhere 🙂

    Also, which direction are you from Charleston, WV?

      • Because I am making the assumption that the anonymity of bitcoin is now gone.

        But I could be wrong.

        • Well, yea, you are totally wrong. Writing a law or code doesn’t change reality. BTC today functions just as it did yesterday, the IRS can’t change that. It is pretty simple really, BTC can be as public or private as two parties want to make it.

          Like I said the IRS just made two BTC markets more clearly defined. The person to person underground market and the business market where anyone with a brain was already handling BTC as they have now said we have to.

  12. What timing with these bitcoin shows; you said they’d attack bitcoin and the IRS released the new “rules” as I’m listening to this episode (sorry I’m not done listening yet, so forgive me if you happened to mention this at the end). The new rules make it sound like no significantly sized business is going to want to bother with bitcoin anymore; if I buy $600 or more from Overstock or some other place, I’m going to have to send them a 1099? (Or they’ll report it for me?) I’ll have to report the transaction as if I had sold a stock and worry about long term versus short term capital gains, and try to figure out its cost basis for when I bought the bitcoin? And, all for a $2 cup of coffee? No one’s going to want to do that.

    This sounds really bad to me and I’m not sure what the upside is, other than pushing real use of bitcoin underground (which is fine, but larger businesses will never participate).

    Can anyone shed some light on this and make it look less hopeless? Maybe bitpay and other services can “automate” much of this, but there’s still the issue of having to report a stock-like transaction whenever I have outgoing bitcoin, and I don’t think they can help me automate that when I buy something with it.

    • Not at all, the IRS just ruled that bitcoins are property. There is NO NEED for anyone to send anyone a 1099, period. Unless they are compensated (wages) in bitcoin.

      • From the article “If you pay your employees with bitcoins, that would have to go on your staff’s W-2 forms, and they would have to pay federal income tax on it. Paying an independent contractor? They have to put bitcoin payments on their 1099.”

        Replace bitcoin with MONEY, CASH, etc. and guess what, the same applies, period.

        But when I buy stuff from a store no matter how much they do not send me a 1099 do they? Coinbase has been sending 1099s to any vendor doing more than 600 dollars for quite a wile now. It is actually a 1099K, same as Paypal does with dollars.

        This is actually great news. Yes if I sell 10,000 in MSB with Bitcoin I must pay income tax on it, JUST LIKE DOLLARS, but say bitcoin goes down, I convert it to cash, great capital loss, that equals deduction.

    • Okay, hopefully there’s no 1099 requirement for purchases as you say.

      They’re still saying any “transaction” (that includes purchasing a product) with it requires I treat this just like I was selling a stock; I have to look up the exchange rate to FRN’s at the time of the purchase (from which exchange? They vary quite a bit), use that as my cost basis, and the profit/loss is the value at the time of sale minus that cost basis. I certainly don’t want to do that every time I pay for coffee, and I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to unless the transaction’s details were also sent to the IRS automatically by the retailer, in which case people wouldn’t even bother with the sale. (If the sale was over $600, is there something they could send the IRS?)

  13. I plan on taking Geoff’s online PDC this year. I hope Jack’s PDC doesn’t overlap too much. I would like to take Jack’s also but I’m not sure if two overlapping PDCs would fit into my schedule.
    My Daughter was planning to go through Geoff’s PDC with me, but doesn’t have the money to get her own cert, so I could definitely see her taking Jack’s to get the certification.

  14. Awesome, but now cant decide to wait and take your PDC or do both. Thanks on getting MSB a discount on Geoff’s PDC. You always take care of us.

  15. I can’t wait for the PDC and to be a founder! And WV!! I go there a couple times a year because I have family there. I’ll drag my brother with me to the farm if I can. He lives in Morgantown, so that’s not too bad of a drive. I know where I will be going to buy my food when I am visiting my family. I’m so excited!!

    Jack, I understand why you had to make the changes in how PE was set up. I am still very happy with the new plan, especially because it is in an area of the country that TSP hasn’t done much with. Thank you for using that great brain of yours to find a way to make this happen.

    I hope John from WV takes part in this endeavor since he has been such a regular contributor to TSP and this is in his home state. I love listening to his calls because my family has that same accent and it makes me think of them.

  16. I will definitely sign up as soon as you provide sign up instructions and a final price to the MSB. This location is within 4 hours of me and sounds like it has similar terrain and climate.

  17. Well, funding is in place and it’s already wife approved! Roll out that sign up! 🙂

  18. Count me in on the PDC. I looked at Geoff’s but had decided I couldn’t swing the budget this year. And as a MSB member, stoked to get first dibs. 😀

  19. I am so in on the Spirko/Wallingford/PermaEthos PDC. What a great way to earn another certificate and watch the farm develop. Fantastic idea to allow MSB first crack at the sign-up!

  20. Jack,
    I take the irs ruling to mean bitcoin is the same as silver or gold for transactions. No way to track minimal purchases, but if you buy a new Ford F-350 with bitcoin, prepare for a knock on the door.
    Regarding the TSA comments, can you travel out of the country with a pound of gold?

    • From what I gather from the Q&A in one of the articles, it isn’t treated same as gold. Gold is a collectible and has different tax rates, plus there are no short and long term sales of it. Bitcoin is treated like a stock and counts as capital gains, and somehow can be taxed less for long term capital gain sales. Although, I’m not sure how that works since there’s no actual way to take a wallet with a mix of bitcoins purchased at different times, and tell which one is which to know when “coin” you’re really selling and be able to set a purchase date for it. Maybe FIFO approach or something.

      Taking a pound of gold on a flight would be a bad idea. You may be able to disguise it by mixing a few coins with regular non-precious coins and hope that’s just noticed as your pocket change, but good luck with that.

    • A knock on the door? My God are we a nation of cowards in addition to a nation of slaves.

      If you buy a F350 with BTC acording to these rules you would

      1. Declare the price average of the BTC at time of purchase the BTC
      2. Declare the price of BTC at time of spending them on the Truck
      3. Pay tax as a capital gain or write off up to 3,000 as a capital loss in any given tax year

      The honest truth about the IRS ruling? It is an accurate way and consistent with all other existing IRS code that covers anything similar to bitcoin.

      Now if we want to get BTC labeled as a currency all that need happen is one and JUST ONE recognized nation name it as their currency or get this even ONE OF THEIR CURRENCIES. A little birdie tells me, that may soon happen and with a very wealthy modern nation no less.

      • I can’t even read it because of the URL, “is gold next”.

        The rules for gold are already WORSE than for bitcoin.

        • Yeah, I was wondering where he was going with that, as were some commenters below his post. But the gold part can be skipped.

  21. With the IRS bitcoin ruling, doesn’t this make using it on a day to day purpose MUCH more onerous? Now, with every single transaction (day-to-day), you have to figure out, track and account for gains and losses from both a long-term and short-term perspective!

    Seems like most of the subversive charm will soon go away…

    • Actually as your merchant account (Coinbase) records every transaction all the data is there, including the data that says of all the BTC you have, X% was received ABOVE today’s price, so as BTC is just like a stock to the IRS I can spend up to that amount at a loss. If you don’t think inexpensive automation software is being coded to do this right now, well, let me just say, it is.

      • The coding up of automation for this is obvious enough for people just leaving bitcoin with some service and doing trades with it. That makes it similar to a stock trading service like etrade. I never expected I could cash out bitcoin at a profit from such a service and not have the IRS told about it, necessitating that I report it on the tax return.

        I am more concerned about actual spending of bitcoins, which is supposed to be its main use. Is overstock or gyft or other online service going to monitor that I bought over $600 in a year and then report this? I am betting yes, if they want to still accept bitcoin and remain out of jail. They could automate their end, but I would still have to painfully log every transaction and figure out the price changes.

        • @Galt, the blockchain already does the “painful logging” so it isn’t painful.

        • Yes, I would go to for the data. Still, if I logged every little purchase online, it could easily be a couple hundred transactions. Not worth it if the alternative is to use my CC and call it done. Your other post suggested something about averaging all the transactions and reporting them on the tacpx return with a single entry? I did not realize that was an option…. It would help greatly if that can be done. But, I may have misunderstood.

        • Of course it can, say I buy Ford Stock in 13 transactions of 50 shares each in 2014. I want to lock the gains or losses at the share value at the end of the year. All I do is compute the average purchase price (well etrade does it for me), at that time I can pay the capital gains, take a loss, etc.

          Now if I am going to hold long I don’t have to pay anything until I sell the stock.

          The tax code is about 20 pages of what you have to do, the rest is how you get out of doing it.

    • If you hold BTC for a full year you could also simplify this with DCA which the IRS is fine with.

      Works like this, you take in BTC for a year, you use your account to do sum all and divide by number of total BTC. Now you have an average price paid on the BTC.

      You simply pay a capital gain or take a capital loss on the net value at the end of the tax year.


      Or you use coinbase and move your BTC to FRNs at time of sale and it is just like cash reciepts at that point.

      Any merchant taking in BTC above board has already been doing what the IRS says you must now do.

    • I think the market will prevail here. If there is a need to easily convert BTC to USD then the market will create one.
      There are already BTC companies that give you a credit card which allows you to purchase from anyone that accepts credit card. That credit card is linked to your BTC wallet and converts it to USD. The cc billing sheet would then already have all of your conversions in place.

  22. Right. This is all well and true but doesn’t this extra added layer of accounting make it less desirable to be adopted by the general public?

    In one sense, the IRS did just legitimize BTC with the ruling. On the other, they might have made it less desirable for the average Joe to try out or adopt.

    • Actually what they just did was send the majority of person to person transactions underground into paper wallets and direct exchanges.

  23. I can’t wait to get on the wiki and update the PermaEthos and Bitcoin page, it’ll have to wait til after my workday though.

    Each month we are picking new featured articles and articles that we’d like to focus on making better. It’s also getting close to the beginning of the a new month and I wanted to get as many people’s input on what they think would be good to feature and what they would like to see added and improved.

    Of course we’d love for you to come out to the wiki and help make the improvements but feel free to post your ideas here and I’ll port them over.

    • Hey if you write up sort of a call for help and what not on the wiki, send it to me, then I’ll run an article on the blog here with it.

  24. For those of you not convinced by the arguments for a minimal state.. I present, the BTC debate.

    Is everyone commenting on how this new technology might be useful? Ways to use it to simplify overly complex systems of accounting or reduce transaction fees? Or, how using it could reduce war?


    Everyone is too busy worrying about what the government thinks about it.. and what the government will do to them if they have it, use it, or even look at it. Or how difficult it will be, not to USE IT, but to explain, justify, and account for their actions when the thugs come knocking.

    If you’ve been trained to cowardice.. that’s OK. But if I hear you boasting about your ‘freedoms’..

    Seriously.. any action you can take to end/reduce tyranny helps. Instead of ‘another brick in the wall’ think ‘another chip in the wall’.

    • @Insidious with your permission I would like to get the gear shop working on a shirt and a patch with the theme of “Put Another Chip in the Wall”.

    • Yes which is why I am discussing ways to be able to keep using bitcoin when there is a ruling like this. I think we have some good ideas here. I want to do whatever I can to promote bitcoin use, but the reality of a government with unlimited force behind it must be considered.

    • t-shirt sounds good!

      Fire Ant w/ a Pickaxe?


      @Going Galt
      I’m not suggesting anyone do anything that is known to be illegal. But the state is churning out thousands of new ways you can get in trouble per year. With the goal/consequence of paralyzing everyone into inaction.

      But the joke is that enforcement can ONLY be selective (unjust). There is NO WAY the state can enforce its current laws. If they did, EVERYONE would be jailed.

      What does that tell you about the state? What does it suggest concerning our actions?

    • Forget the pickaxe.. make it a jackhammer.

      I’d make it dynamite, but then we’d have to worry about the BATF raiding the gear shop. ;-p

  25. If this ruling sends people ‘underground’ to paperwallets/directxchanges, that unintended consequence is likely just fine with the gov’t as it keeps bitcoin on the fringe.

    I think bitcoin advocates need to be honest and forthright about some of the limitations and weaknesses inherent in bitcoin. Bitcoin is NOT decentralized as claimed on the pod. Every transaction is out in the open and true anonymity takes good tradecraft and security practices that are likely beyond the knowledge of the average Joe. See:

    I think bitcoin has a lot of potential, but it also has a long way to go in order to live up to some of the claims of its’ core advocates.

    • Oh horseshit. Note I said small person to person transactions, duh!

      How much of that happens with CASH on a daily basis. At the business level of course you have to be above board with BTC. But person to person for a basket of fruit, would you do that with cash?

      If so why? Why the hell should an oppressed people who are lied to and stolen from daily cooperate with their masters?

  26. Just got to listen to yesterday’s show. AWESOME!

    I have my $250 for the PermaEthos PDC set aside, and I am also going to sign up for Geoff’s as well. I don’t think you can ever learn enough. My wife and I are finishing up another PDC right now, but are planning on doing these as well.

    Why? some may ask. One of the greatest things I see, is the development of additional online community for exchange of ideas, interactions, and critical feedback.

    Get that sign up for the PE PDC online. I’m ready to send in the money… And I am excited about going to WV for some hand on events. So much closer to home in PA, means I can get there without getting on a plane!

    • I agree about the online community component. When I took Geoff’s PDC last year I was blown away by the community of people and how everyone shared ideas. That by itself was worth the price of the PDC. Plus, Geoff doesn’t kick the graduates out. We get to remain part of the community and continue to have access to all the online material.

  27. I’m going to post one of the questions I’ve had with bitcoin that I’ve been unable to answer adequately. Maybe someone here can answer it. Bitcoin has a fixed “population”, once all the coins are mined there are no more. The “miners” are the ones that are processing the transactions and maintaining the encryption keys, etc. Their “motivation” is they get to mine new coins. My question is “why would a miner continue supporting the encryption/transaction strings on the day after the final coin is mined? The transaction fees are so small I’m not sure there’s enough money there to support the “largest supercomputer known”.

    Imperial, MO

    • I was just pondering that yesterday. I’m not sure, although it will be over 100 years before there is nothing to mine. That last bitcoin could be worth billions and make it worth the mining attempt? Don’t they earn money from the 0.0001btc fee? I think that is the motivation, and it gets stronger as the value of btc goes up.

    • Well, first.. this isn’t going to happen until around 2140.

      However, fees will increase to cover the cost of the mining network (free market). If the fees increase too much, people will switch networks (free market).

      So.. in a free market, where you’re not forced to use a specific currency at the barrel of a gun.. if a product, in this case a currency, is no longer useful, you can switch products. A truly revolutionary concept. 😉

      A little more complete explanation on fees:

    • I’m not sure that the fees need to “increase” since 0.0001btc should be worth more over time. If anything, the fee should go to a lower number. If for example 0.0001btc became worth $10, I would not be willing to pay it. It would need to be 0.000001btc instead.

  28. Great question. We also must not forget that the entire Bitcoin construct is inherently deflationary so the value of individual btc’s will go down in time.

  29. I could never understand when Jack said bitcoin is not inflationary because it is fractionizing. To me if you add another decimal place doesn’t that by definition mean there are now 10 times more than before the fraction was added?

    • No the amount of bitcoin is fixed, saying what you are saying is like saying if we brought back half cents it would inflate the dollar.

  30. With inflation a bitcoin would buy LESS, adding a zero after the decimal point means it is buying more.

    • I will be DEAD by the time this happens..

      (Unless the ‘singularity’ happens)


  31. One example of bitcoin 2.0 discussed in the podcast is Namecoin – it uses the blockchain to store domain names and then create software that lets browsers (and other internet applications) route to servers without the need for centralized domain name servers. Not on the same level as bitcoin itself, but an interesting and actually valuable (think of take down notices or DNS failure) application.

  32. Deb in Mass (soon to be SC) here.

    I didn’t write down the email address to send information on the local markets in WV. Suzanne McMinn who runs the Chickens in the Road blog might be a good source of info. She is a local and very close to your Permaethos farm area. She is a freedom minded lady and whole heartedly embraces the homestead lifestyle. I looked on the website and her email is I am particularly excited because your the location is only a 5 hour drive from my future home in SC.

  33. Don’t mean to upset anyone, but won’t bitcoin only be good as long as there is a power grid? I mean, it’s done on computer, so even off the grid folks would have a headache. A very, very worse case senario could bring it? Frankly, I like the blockchain. And that with only a key you could will bitcoin to your decendents, right?

    • It doesn’t upset me but it really is a pointless question. No grid what else doesn’t work, your bank account for one, your retirement account for another, your credit/debit cards. Gas pumps, lights, radios, television, etc, etc, etc.

      The point isn’t really valid unless you believe the grid is going to go down and stay down forever and the ghost of Mad Max will rise, become a zombie and feed on our children.

      Frankly if the entire grid goes down and stays down the money you have in bitcoin will be the very last concern on your mind.

  34. Jack.
    I live one hour North of Charleston on my own half acre lot I am building up. I am not trying to apply for anything other than interested in workshops and so forth but if there is anything needed just let me know.
    I am personally looking to build up a nursery of edible landscaping plants not usually found at nurseries locally and I realize the faster you guys build something and someone starts as a competitor it really opens up the market for me as demand will be built faster with three or four area nursery doing it rather than one.

    • Hey John!
      I am an hour north of Charleston as well. Along 77. Where are you?
      I am actually planning to buy a bunch of edibles for two permaculture projects I am working on. Get in touch with me. I’d love to see what you have.

  35. I don’t have anything yet. I am planting up my lot with things as I find sources. I have to research the licensing for nursery before I do anything commercial so it is probably five years away. However I am planting apple trees from seed now so I can scour the old farms I grew up on to get those special apples that I remember. On my aunts property in Clay County there is an apple tree that holds the ripe fruit on the tree until spring. I have eaten frozen apple off of it in February when I was a kid. Small red apple with a real crisp taste. I am 15 minutes off I77 in Letart. My neighborhood is working on the 263 acre land connected to the Letart Community Park and trying to plant it into forage trails as well as put a barefoot camping area.
    The reality is before I found TSP I already was interested in Permaculture and the very effort to locate the plants I want tells me the need for a nursery selling what I want.

    • Sounds like a great project!
      There’s actually a guy (Al DiSalle) not too far from you (near DuPont) that grows citrus, figs, coffee, and a bunch of other things that aren’t supposed to grow here. I am actually meeting with him tomorrow as he is helping me plant some things in my backyard mini food forest.
      I’d love to get ahold of some of those seeds you are talking about. They sound great.

  36. I have listened to the episode twice and read through all of the comments and I can not find where Jack states/lists the discount code for MSB members for Geoff Lawton’s course. In fact, I’m part way through the next episode where Jack mentions that there is a $100 discount but then doesn’t say what the discount code is. I even went into the MSB area to look for it and unless I’m just going blind, can’t find it there.

    Would someone please tell me where I can find this information?
    many thanks.

    • And I will never say the code on the air. For pete sake folks, it will be in the MSB before the course opens, I will not say it again, I will not answer it again.

      It will be in the MSB on the benefits page for MSB only like every other discount we have ever done.

  37. Please put me on the list for the PDC. I took my PDC with Geoff’s online course last year and will be rewatching and contributing as much as my schedule allows, but I am really looking forward to extending my knowledge with this new style PDC.

    We are currently working to moving to Oklahoma onto 46 acres in the hill country and would like to be considered as a PermaEthos farm when that gets up and running. It’s not as large of acreage as some, but there are already 3 ponds and lots of water to work with, and very gentle slope.

    Can’t wait to hear the details. We had already intended to work on being a PRI demo site. I assume that these will not be mutually exclusive.

  38. Definitely want to get in on both the PDC and the subscription service when it’s ready to go. Is there anywhere to sign up yet or is this still in he ‘generating and gauging interest’ phase? If there’s a way to sign up or get on a list let me know. I got a couple days behind on the show so just heard this part today.

  39. Maybe create a Roku channel for the subscription service? Just a thought.

    Really excited about the online PDC!! Hoping that I have enough time to save up for it and get in on the ground floor.

    Sent some prices from my area to Josiah to help out with the business plan.

  40. I have my PDC from Geoff’s first online course and CAN’T WAIT to sign up for this one. Will be watching like a hawk for the registration to open.