Episode-1305- Byron Joel on Humanity’s Future with Permaculture — 20 Comments

  1. I remember as a kid eating acorns off the trees. Me and my cousin would try ones from each tree on the mountain until we found ones the were palatable. I know it is possible.

  2. Byron and other West Australians are invited to join WASSA (WA Survival Skills Assn) going since the mid 1980’s when we were known as the Australian Nuclear Survival Skills Assn..
    Email me at if you are interested.
    Even if you’re not interested in WASSA but you are a WA survivalist TSP listener then also fell free to email.
    Note* Joel Salitan is coming to Manjimup WA early March.

  3. I can’t believe more folks aren’t excited for the book Byron is writing! As he was reading off the topics I was enthralled. Maybe I’m just a knowledge nerd, but that sounds right up my alley.

    Maybe Jack can get an MSB discount on it when it comes out. 😉

  4. Joel mentions Bernays… Check out this quote from the first chapter of his book Propaganda written in 1928

    “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. …We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. …In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons…who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”
    ? Edward L. Bernays, Propaganda

  5. Hey Guys, Byron here(Joel is my surname)…

    Thanks for the positive response.

    RANDALL: Im going to take you up on your offer re. Quercus agrifolia.
    Expect an email.

    FRANK: I wasnt even aware of WASSA! Ill be exploring that for sure! Very excited. I am aware Joel Salatin is coming to Aus because Im picking him and Darren Doherty up from the airport.

    ERICM: When the book is done TSP listeners will be given a super good deal on it.

    BRYAN B: Good to see people are looking into this side of things…..

    All the best guys and please feel free to contact me directly at

  6. Bryon is there a signup list where you can email us when the book becomes available? Im excited to read it

  7. There is something I thought about that wasn’t discussed regarding “what you should learn” or “what you should study”. It is the issue that I’m coming into now. And that… is dun dun du…. legal requirements. I’ve run pretty much smack up against Louisiana legal requirements for a Landscape Architecture degree. Not only a degree, but also a certified license (national certification, to include a state one). If somebody wanted to be a permaculture consultant in Louisiana, you will not be legally allowed to take a single customer without those things. There is “some” leway in this, but you basically have to be the underlying of a Landscape Architecture for quite some time.

    I’ve read in other states they use a title law, meaning, if you want to call yourself a landscape architect you have to have the degree/certification. (Got no problems there). Louisiana’s law, it turns out, means you cannot perform any functions that a Landscape Architect can without that certification. Every drawing you produce for a person has to have your state sponsored certification number on them. so on and so on and so on. You can engage in some of the behaviors if you’re not taking money, however, no advertising, etc. So you could help out a buddy or a friend of a friend, but that’s about it.

    To get around this I am thinking about going the “education route” where people “learn how to do it for themselves” under my education. There is also no way around not having a horticulture license for selling/producing plants.

    But again, all states are different, but knowing laws could really change the way you “go certified” or “go professional”. Without certain keys some doors/avenues are fairly locked.

  8. Are these people connected ? Edward Bernaise related to Freud .. Aldous Huxley great great grandfather Thomas Huxley was the main promoter of Darwinism .. Supposedly Shakespeare’s kids where illiterate and Shakespeare didn’t really write the stuff attributed to him

  9. THE NEW MIKE: Of course things will be different between Australia and the US but we have similar issues here re. Landscape Architect licensing… SO…. I went and sat a part-time(2days a week for 12 months) ‘Landscape Design’ course. I dont leave with a L.A degree/license BUT I got to pick up skills like Design, Drafting, Auto-cad/Sketchup, History of Landscaping etc…

    • That’s cool.

      Yeah definitely no way I can do “2 days a week for 12 months” for anything hah. I already live 30 minutes away from town. Probably 2 hours away from a University. There are some other possible learning potentials I think.

      Another option is just doing it anyways and working at a more bottom up organic way. That is one thing about Louisiana that is a tad different than other places. People just do whatever they want most of the time. Even in my parish there is a “you can’t discharge a weapon 1000 feet from a dwelling” and yet people have backyard firing ranges all over the place.

      Now, opening up some “serious business” where you travel all over the state and perform jobs, is probably another story.

      • Hell I bet there are full on distance learning options for this if you really think you need it.

        Though here is what I think, you need to check to be sure. Landscapers do stuff, they dig, plant and often, all to often SPRAY. This is not what I do when I “consult” I evaluate the land, come up with my suggested design, then the homeowner installs and implements it.

        To me legally this is the line in the sand. If I only get paid if the design is done, I am a landscaper (may be) if I give you the design and you choose what do do with it I am simply advising you as to what I would do if I owned the land.

        Now lets say I suggest swales. You want to do them but want me on site. Okay fine you get the equipment and operator, you pay for it and you decide in the end what does and doesn’t get done. I bill you for my time and stand there and tell you what I think you should do. I am not a landscaper, I am your adviser, you are in charge of and doing the work. I am not a landscaper, I do not own the equipment, I am not doing the work.

        We get to planting, I have provided you with a list of plants that YOU BUY hell you might even buy some from me, I am not a landscaper. You plant your own plants. Hopefully some neighbors show up to help. I might even help but as the old beer commercial goes in the end you make the call.

        Now if the client wants a turn key solution, I am going to do a design and contract a landscaping company to do the install anyway. In that instance I am the “owner’s agent” in dealing with the landscaper.

        Most multi page laws and codes are one paragraph of what you can’t do and the rest is how you get around it.

        • Let me say I have also known more than one person here in DFW that does “lawn care” not landscaping. This means they mow, edge, blow and sweep. Many times the owner wants chemicals put down. Now for the lawn care guy to buy and transport the chems he needs a fricken license. The home owner can go buy the same shit no problem at Home Depot and put it in the trunk of his Prius not comprehending the irony at all by the way and bring it home.

          The lawn care guy can then spread it, no one has had a problem I have ever heard of doing this and it is done all the time. I am not sure it is technically legal but no one seems to interfere.

  10. great show as usual. btw, i agree, on the 3rd ethic, i feel that return of surplus is more clear & encompassing than the ‘fair share.’ If you have surplus, do not waste it. un-edibles get composted, returned to the land, or turned into animal feed, and if i have edibles i cannot use or store, the ethics would guide me to find if i could help a human out with them. They would not have a claim that I ethically owe them, but i would feel the ethical thing to do would be to help them if I could & they deserve it. Fair share would be a subset- such as to not horde land you can’t use [considering the state owns most land in the world…], and let others use that surplus land, & share skills, open-source. And when people work together on land, don’t screw them! And in business, pay workers fairly. Do what you say & say what you do. Act fairly. Honest business & personal relationships. The ethics are a guide for me to decide the proper way to act, not a guide others can put upon me. This is why permaculture, prepping & libertarianism fit so well together I feel. Respect of property rights. True generosity can only occur when people have the right to the property.

  11. Mental habits and community living….”it means you got to deal with your shit.” Brilliant. That kinda shifted my para-dig-em right there. That community is a natural check And balance to stop you from you being a liar and an a-hole. Just think how many issues that simple concept could resolve? I have never thought about it that way, thank you!

  12. Wow just had a chance to listen to this episode. Byron your words are very inspiring! Can’t wait for the book! Jack thanks for bringing Byron to us and let us know when the book becomes available!