Episode-1196- Updates on Future TSP Endeavors and Homestead Plans — 82 Comments

  1. Anxious to hear your thoughts on the Rangers, Jack. I raised 25 last year and have 40 going right now (about 7 weeks old). I love them. Hardy, active, and I have no problem with their rate of gain and feed conversion. Last year I butchered at 70 days, and they were th perfect size. Meat flavor and tenderness from last year’s group was awesome. Costs more to raise than the Cornish X, I’m sure. So maybe better for homesteaders than farmers.

  2. Not only would people drive out of their way for food , we could also deliver once a week to small towns like a coop style deal

  3. Jack,

    Intriguing concept on the PermaEthos Community. The benevolent dictatorship makes sense. It is time to demonstrate self-reliant living as a community.

  4. I love the idea of a community and would be interested in investing but I would rather have one here in NC so I could live there. Please consider.

  5. Depending on how big a dog you want, but down here in SE Texas most ranchers use Australian Cattle Dogs AKA Blue healers or Border collies, but make sure they really well breed and have good bloodline, there are puppy mills out there.

    • Or a Maremma Sheepdog, they are pretty awesome as well.
      Here’s link to a breeder/trainer and she will train it for you if you like, there’s a picture on this site of one of them laying next to a ton of chickens as they feed.

    • I’ve found there is a Big difference between a LGD and a Herding dog. You do not want a herding dog like and Austrailian Cattle Dog or a Border Collie unless they have a job herding the animals All The Time. They really tend to not care to much if a predetor is attacking the flock or herd. Because they use the hunting instict for the herding dogs. However they use the pack instinct with the LGD breeds.

  6. Would it not be better to take the approach of Benjamin Franklin and turn a hater into an ally? Doesn’t that show a certain level of social mastery versus the short-sighted approach you are suggesting?

    • Not if the hater is an idiot or a troll. Not if the haters agenda wasn’t consistent with your own.

    • Scott,
      Thats good and nice, except he didn’t live in the age of the internet, where normal regular people have turned into vindictive assholes just because. Not the same when you can face to face with a person.

    • Amen to that Mike, I have people attack and cuss me on YT and other sites for just asking a question, no way they would do that in person

  7. One potential dog breed to look at would be the Akbash. I visitied a dairy goat farm where they were being used in Eastern North Carolina and the farmers seemed to be pleased with their performance. I would imagine the climate in Eastern NC is fairly comparable to Texas, or at least it wouldn’t be different enough to matter to the dog.

  8. Get a Pyrenees and keep them sheared. Not to the skin, just short enough to take off the other coat.

  9. Hey Jack,

    My wife and I just bought our own little 4.25 acre homestead in the hill country nw of Austin. We are out in the county, no city crap to put up with. Here are a few things we did have to go thru the county on, and why.

    We financed the land and house (a nice modular) portion that we were not able to just pay up front. The county requires a 30 buck permit for the septic system (and a licensed person has to install it and the resulting inspection), and you have to let them know that you are drilling a well on your property, but no permit required. Now, the financing was a hud loan, so there were two things land related that they stuck their fingers into. First, they specified minimums for the septic and you HAD to have a septic. I inquired about composting, etc and they said no. The second thing was, they required water quality lab tests (which was what I was doing anyway to make sure the well was good.). Even being out in the county, you might run into the septic thing, unless everything is done without involving a ‘licensed installer’. The insurance people also told me that, if you get homeowners insurance and your septic system is NOT a certain age and you CAN’T show the paper trail on installation, then they would not insure the home. I am sure there are plenty of ways around this, but will probably require a good real estate attorney.

    Anyway, it’s a great idea and concept, and our only regret is that we already bought our place before you came up with this idea!

  10. Another great episode. You are making me think of things I never would have considered man. I have my own land, but have often considered building a house and offering it to some needy family in return for help in maintaining it,(you know when I get old) I just think about how hard it is for people now. And how we could all pull together….. Young couples have to work 2 jobs. Older people need astrong back to help them out. I feel like it was so much better when families stayed together through the generations. Maybe this is like a big permaculture family….

  11. Excellent ‘cast. The Ethos-village concept sounds great. As far as turning an enemy to a friend… most trolls aren’t real enemies, just idiots. And according to Ron White, “you cant fix stupid.” A real enemy can be turned to a friend, in fact it’s the best way of defeating an enemy. A real “double ledger” boon if it can be pulled off. Remove a neg. and at the same time, add a pos. The concept reminds me of a Jerry Pournel/Larry Niven book- Oath of Fealty, about a large secured habitat.

    “In the near future, Los Angeles is an all but uninhabitable war zone, racked by crime, violence, pollution and poverty. But above the blighted city, a Utopia has arisen: Todos Santos, a thousand-foot high single-structured city, designed to used state-of-the-art technology to create a completely human-friendly environment, offering its dwellers everything they could want in exchange for their oath of allegiance and their constant surveillance . But there are those who want to see the utopia destroyed, whose answer to tomorrow’s best and brightest hope is mindless violence. And they have just entered Todos Santos. . . .”

    Good reading. It also points out that there is a certain portion of the population that hates any attempt to rise above the status quo. Haters hate and always will.

  12. Last year I did an essay for one of my university courses. In the research I looked at the USDA website and it said that a household of four needed over $600 a month on a conservative basis for food. So if the initial buy in price is 1200 and a 200 a month payment there is a higher rate of return in food alone.

  13. I’m really liking the PermaEthos idea, but there were couple of things that came to mind, that you’d probably eventually deal with, but might be nice to find out about right off the bat:

    1. I don’t know the laws in Texas, but in my home state of Nebraska, cities/villages have an extra-territorial jurisdiction that expands from 1 to 3 miles beyond city limits (depending upon the population of the city) inside which the cities’ zoning and building codes are enforceable. If such a thing exists in whatever state the PermaEthos concept is first developed, be sure to keep the land search well outside of this zone (to account for potential future annexation by the cities/villages).

    2. Again, this is a Nebraska thing – even in the county there are limitations on how close two wells can be placed on a single parcel. This would mean one of two things here – a) each individual acre lot would need to be a separate parcel (more paper work for management) or b) perhaps a micro rural water district might be developed (complete with a water tower or two – because one is none) . On the other hand, the distance might be a moot point with acre-sized lots or and improvements on leased land situation.

    Thanks for the great shows, energy and passion lately. I’m sure that it has inspired much doing.

    • As for the well thing brother, here in Texas my parents have 2 wells less than 20 feet apart and different depths…but they were dug 30 years ago so it might have changed in that time.

  14. Very informative show today Jack. Love hearing you personify your geese, we too. It’s just crazy out hear. We just did a rescue on another 8 Ameraucana chickens. That’ about 30 layers of various size and color now, collected 19 eggs today, Woot Woot!! Anyway, I wanted to express my desire to attend your chicken workshop. I will bring my own chicken, BYOC, even if the Urban PCD class fills.

    Thanks brah, just got back from Hawaii so everyone is “brah” for a while.

  15. “Not turning TSP into an informerical for PermaEthos. ”

    I about pee’d myself cause you read my mind with this statement. I personally thank you. I won’t get in the way of those interested, just not something I, personally am interested in. For those whose tractor got cranked by this… good on ya! I miss the personal buisness related shows/questions… maybe just miss 5 mins w/ Jack.. lol Guess I need to offer up some ?’s to get the ball rolling!

    No real point in saying this, aside it has been on my mind since this afternoon, and thought I would share. Thanks for all you do Jack.

  16. Paul Wheaton says no marijuana allowed in his empire. What would you say about that on PermaEthos land? if I’m the benevolent dic, I’m with Paul, but liberty is liberty and weed is definitely a legal issue and apparently a deal breaker for many. Mainly I just think it’s a fascinating twist/ hard question. Curious of your thoughts. great episode!

  17. I am very excited about the whole PermaEthos concept and if I lived in the states I would jump at the chance to be part of it.
    I will follow the progress closely and even research the possibility of moving to the US in order to be part of it but I’m not sure I would meet the criteria to allow us to move there.
    Maybe I can come over for a visit once it is set up

  18. Jack said nothing against the law. Pot is against the law and it is something due to the unique nature of the corporation/community can affect everyone.
    A person’s lot being raided for pot would have as much or more of a negative effects on their neighbors as using Roundup to clear your property.
    For a community to have redundancy it needs to mitigate risks. If a business endorses the use of drugs then the property can be seized. If the leasee’s use drugs with the blessing of the land owners then everyone’s lots can be forfeit along with the rest of the community property.

  19. We encourage each other to acquire property that does not have an HOA involved, but I have to say that the PermaEthos concept requires a form of HOA in order to be successful as a community. That reminds us that there can be benefits of having an HOA, which includes maintaining property values and achieving common objectives effectively, such as maintaining common area assets. In my pre-SHTF life, I live in a neighborhood with an HOA, and it is a beneficial symbiotic relationship.

    • @Curtis –
      There are several different layers of privilege and responsibility being discussed. To date, my understanding is:

      Owner (Jack)

      The owner is ‘supreme dictator’ limited only by his contract with the leasees and investors.

      Investors have no direct control over anything that happens on the property, their relationship is purely financial (invest -> dividends).

      Leasees have full control of their leased property to the extent specified in the lease. They may also have access to COMMUNAL property. They may receive (based on what I’ve heard Jack say) a portion of profits from the use of some of the shared property (sale of goods or services (classes)).

      Renters are renters (short or long term). Their rental contract specifies the use of their rented space, and any COMMUNAL areas they may be granted access to.

      Guests are short term visitors (class participants for example) who’s agreement extends only for the duration of their visit, and has more restrictions on behavior and usage of the COMMUNAL property.

      I’m listing this because you mention HOAs.

      An HOA legally sits ABOVE an owner. The problem being that there is no way for an owner to escape the HOA without abandoning the property, and most HOA ‘bylaws’ are written so the HOA can ‘change the rules’ at will.

      Which means an HOA can, in an instant, turn from a benevolent servant to a punishing master. And the only recourse for the owner is to leave.

      (I’m actually going to be commenting on.. ‘what do you do when your benevolent dictator goes crazy’.. as part of the ‘Jack-Land’ discussion..)

      • Yup.. my above post is based on the earlier talk.

        Now that I’m listening to the talk.. this is more of a ‘company town’ model.

      • Not even close.

        I will be on equal footing with every other investor once the deal is struck. My veto power ends when the company is formed. At that point I get one vote on approval like every other investor. All investors are owners.

        HOA – Not going to happen, there will be a basic set of rules on day one, they won’t change, this makes it 100% voluntary association.

        Disputes between members will require as follows

        1. First you must attempt direct resolution and wait 48 hours and consider each others side, then meet again and see if you can find a solution.
        2. Then go to another community member you both agree on as a third party arbitrator, make your cases, he will give a non binding recommendation.
        3. Should that fail you can bring your disagreement to the ownership board, most of the time we will likely tell you both to shut your steak holes and leave each other alone. If it is a legitimate disagreement we will use the community constitution to decide impartially. This should almost never be necessary.

        Ownership will hire key personal such as a community manager and farm manager. Many other jobs will be managed by these folks and they will choose who to hire for them, said opportunities will always go to community members first before any outside labor is used.

        Work requirements, no one has to do anything if they don’t want to. However I think many members will do a lot of little things here and there voluntarily, I know I will. I want to have a home in a place like this, I want to be part of a community like this, if someone doesn’t they would do best to find a different option.

        Lessee Rights – Lessee’s will elect a board, said board will basically have one real responsibility. Talk to the community and the managers, get monthly recommendation for how to allocate the the budget for reinvestment into the community. They will present the recommendations to the community. The community votes on the recommendations. Every Lessee gets one vote. That is brought to the ownership board for a vote of approval. The board will generally approve most recommendations as long as they make sense. The chief role of the owners voting will be in closely disputed decisions.

        Say 52% of the community wants a pond in a common area. 48% want a building. As an owner with a vote that close I would consider evaluation of the two based on the best interest of the community because I have a fiduciary responsibility to do so. If we had zero ponds I would likely go with the pond as the vote suggests. If we had a few already and putting in a building would make us better able to host workshops and bring in revenue that will fully fund the pond in a few months with new outside revenue, I would vote to over ride the recommendation because it makes a LOT more sense financially.

        But again I have one and only one vote. If I am out voted by the other owners the recommendation carries. When a recommendation is voted down a full reasoning will be presented to the community.

        Such as, by building this new building we will be able to host a event on earth works in three months. That event will bring in an estimated 50 students, the projected profit will be about 15,000 dollars, which will not only pay for the pond but for interconnecting swales to other ponds along with many trees to plant the swales between the ponds. If we build the pond first and don’t have the building as a facility we can’t charge students as much or attract as many of them to this event. So we are making a decision to push the pond development out 90 days and put in this new building first.

        The beauty of this model is it is a BUSINESS model. Said models use logic, in this case logic bound by Permaculture ethics.

        Lessees should also keep in mind with VERY FEW restrictions they can do what ever they want on their acre or two. The only restrictions I see are like if you have livestock it is your responsibility to fence them in not your neighbors to fence them out. No cooking meth or running a still in your back yard or something stupid that brings in “the man”. Likely a time of night when anything very loud (like big generators) needs to be off.

        In any event all stipulations will be known in advance. Owners will only really decide how money is spent. Disputes will be handled internally unless grown men can’t do that and then yes the dictators will solve it.

        The people with no real say are non lessees. People that lease a temporary residence and want to live there say 90 days, don’t want a long term commitment, etc. They just want to show up, live in a small cabin and perhaps do some work on the place. These people are customers so they will be treated very well but they get no votes and no real rights. They are only to access common areas unless specifically invited as a guest to a residents property.

  20. I meant to ask you if you could find out how many TSPers ended up getting on the PDC. Over 400. Very cool.
    I know me and another TSPer is going to the next Ben Falk PDC (he’s doing two) tomorrow. I don’t know if anybody else is going, they hadn’t seen my forum post…. So who knows…

    I’ll be wearing my hat and mug… so.. =)

    • Just heard your statement regarding stopping going after the haters. That’s something I have been meaning to “bring you to jesus” on. I’ve seen you do it quite a few times, where I’m like… “this mighty man jack, has nothing better to do than feed trolls? He’s got a good thing going, that represents itself and yet still feels like he needs to stoop down the dumbest among us.”

      You’ll feel a lot better I think, if you just shrug em off and say “who cares?” Paul wheaton really pisses me off sometimes, however, other times i’m like THIS MAN IS ON TO SOMETHING. He basically said that he’s tired of telling people they’re doing things wrong, and just wants to do good things. Thats some extremely wise words. Like you said on this podcast… hey you want to do something else? Great. Don’t like my idea? Thats great man. But hey we’re going over here and we’re doing and trying this…

      That’s the mark of a real leader.

    • You are going to LOVE Ben’s place. Make sure to go with them when they go swimming at the river.

  21. Hey I just wanted to give my 2 cents worth on the live stock guardians. I have grate pyrenees right now and have had them most of my life they are one of the best with out a doubt. I live in north east oklahoma and they handle the heat just fine, with a shady spot or a barn fan. how ever if it was a real problem you could clip them in the spring and problem totally solved. Just a little about them I raise goats, chickens, ducks, rabits, quail, and a horse I shift there pens from place to place around 11 1/4 acres animals all free range in each padox. My dogs where raise from pups in the pens moving with the animals taught what is theres and what is not now they come in an out of the pens when thry want through the fences dogs are not contained. How ever one never leaves the heard they move he moves they lay he lays I have seen goats chickens and duck walk on and lay all over him he never moves. The other one stays by choice out side the pen. They very obviously coordinate any time anything comes with in range inside out side 2 lines of defense. Grate pyrenees protect because they have been bread with a very high sence of possessiveness they clain stuff animals people land and they will not blink an eye to die to protect anything you teach them belongs to them 400 dollar dog will give his life to protect a scruffy cross breed chicken no one cares about ut he will do the same thing for your children thats what sold me on them but get dogs that have been raised with animals or get puppies to raise with your animals that always works best.

    • tommycobbler, i’ve heard they bark all night, is that true? i guess if your pasture is far enough away it wouldn’t matter just curious

      • Well I would have to say yes they do but its really just barking at things around like dog down road barks they bark when its quiet and nothing around they are to but yea they bark at a lot

  22. We use organic, soy free feed from Rogue Nature’s Harmony
    Organic Feeds for our Welsh Harlequin ducks. We buy it from Azure Standard which specializes in bulk, natural and organic food delivery. We are part of a drop so we pay no shipping.

  23. My understanding of this proposal (to maybe help get your head clear):

    If you ‘invest’ you are an owner
    If you ‘lease’ you are a customer

    The customers are being offered a unique environment/agreement for leasing land.

    I’m mentioning this because Jack flips back and forth between advantages to the owners vs. advantages to the customers.

    Additional revenue streams to the COMPANY (investors) do not DIRECTLY benefit the CUSTOMERS (leasees).

    Things to explore (IMO):
    – How do leasees become owners? (not everyone will want to.. but having a path for this would encourage ‘community effort’.. this would be the equivalent of offering employees stock options.. so maybe the answer is that leasees are ‘non voting owners’.. which is handled by the profit sharing spelled out in the lease)

    – How are leasees remunerated for property improvements? (you could skip this.. but being able to create something of value and then sell it obviously encourages leasee ‘investment’ in their leased property. so one example would be that leasees can sell/transfer the rights to their lease (maybe with board approval, but this introduces a ‘blackmail’ issue).. )

    – How is the company encouraged to remain benevolent? (a lot of this can be handled in its initial formation thru bylaws.. but there has to be an escape clause for the leasee.. basically some sort of no fault walk away clause)

    On the form of lease.. there might be two classes, transferable (where the leasee plans to improve the property) and non-transferable, with convertibility with some fee.. or maybe a ‘transfer fee’ of x%.. (meaning if the original leasee improved the property.. and then wanted to sell the rights to the ‘improved lease’ for $100k.. the corp gets 10% of that.. the ‘transfer’ would only be for the rights to the lease.. the lease terms may have been modified by the corp (increase in monthly lease amount)).

    speaking of which, lease amount might be tied to some external cost factor (property tax for instance) due to its long term nature.


  24. I’m on the verge of moving away from Los Angeles and if I were interested in moving to Texas, I would join up with PermaEthos in a heartbeat. I have few skills but I have always been a willing volunteer to do gruntwork. Living among other people with whom I could trade my labor for their skilled work seems an ideal situation for me.

  25. For further clarification on this..

    The COMPANY might decide to build a coffee shop on the property. – The benefit to the owner/investors is that they receive the profit from the coffee shop.
    – The benefit to the leesees is that they have a coffee shop within walking distance

    The COMPANY could decide to close the coffee shop, or double the prices..
    The leesees only recourse is to go to another coffee shop..

    This does bring up the issue of ‘commercial space’.. which could either be set aside as ‘special areas’ or just organically arise from peoples regular property use.. not suggesting ‘zoning’ but there are some advantages to some layout patterns.. for instance having ‘services’ in the center.

    • See this isn’t accurate.

      If we opened a coffee shop, first the residents would have to want it. It would only happen if they requested it. Second it would create jobs for the residents. Third as ownership will only take a percentage of profits say a 30-70 split, 70% of said profits stay in the community to do other things. Like buy 1200 chicks that are raised by the farm manager and distributed the residents. Or buy a shit ton of pecan trees. Said pecans are first offered to the residents, surplus beyond what they want is sold. Profits are returned and owners get the smaller slice of the pie on the profit.

      Problem is, you haven’t ever seen anything this fair to everyone before and it is short circuiting your brain. LOL

      To keep things from getting stupid it is likely that many items produced would be sold to residents at cost and outside the community at cost plus. This prevents some tool from taking 40 buckets of pecans and letting them rot in his shed.

      Again though work equals pay in this model. I mean I hope if we are doing a massive tree planting many residents will just show up and do it, it is there money if we have to pay planters, but again the residents decide what they do and don’t do.

      • I think my brain was broken LONG before reading about this.. 😉

        for the record.. NONE of my comments are about the location/arrangement you’re proposing.. they’re about the FORM of the arrangement, and the relationships between parties

        so when I say ‘the company could..’ I’m not saying ‘Jack and his investors would..’

        the thing I’m trying to state is that ‘leasees’ have a ‘soft say’ in what the company/investors do.

        So in the case of the coffee shop.. a coffee shop is not built BECAUSE 51% of the leasees VOTE for building a coffee shop.. its built because the leasees express a desire for a coffee shop, and the company DECIDES to build one.

        If 80% of the residents express a desire for a roller coaster.. and 10% want a playground.. the company may decide to build the playground, and the leesees have no ‘recourse’ as they have no ‘right’ to a roller coaster.

        Just trying to make clear that this is NOT a commune, where each leesee has a ‘say’ in a LEGAL sense.

        On the value side.. the benefits being provided to the Customers (leesees in particular) starts at good, and over time would head into ‘insane’ territory, particularly if there is a profit sharing arrangement.. as the wealth, (particularly the foodstuffs) being created by the property is only going to increase over time, and there are pretty much infinite possibilities for value creation within and outside the community.

        What I appreciated about the MT Knives Stakeholder program (and the reason it sold out in six minutes) is that it provided a way for a Customer to make a ‘one time’ purchase, and receive recurring (and potentially escalating) value. In other words, a ‘purchase’ that was in fact an ‘investment’.

        I can totally see the property idea working the same way..

        • as evidence of the brain being broken.. i was just trying to convince my spouse of why, if you needed meat on a spaceship, you’d be better off raising slugs than chickens..

          (included pantomime of the effects of zero G on chickens) 😉

        • Insidious – I think Jack has been really clear about how this operates. In addition, once PermaEthos is stable and covering its expenses, and reached something of a static level – homeostasis is what I am thinking of here – the monthly lease income should be something like $40,000 a month, plus the non-lease income, less whatever monthly expenses are. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that out of a chunk of money like that, the main question will be how much of that to retain, and how much to return to the lessees. Some sort of “reserve” would be very prudent, and I would think it would be reasonable to provide for it in both the investors agreement and the agreement covering the relationship with the lessees. For instance, if PermaEthos has our own electric distribution system, and one of the ice storms which hit this area comes through, we can’t look to current income to replace the inevitable broken poles and likes.

          It is so easy to look for problems where none exist. By the way, are you looking to become a part of the PermaEthos community, or just helping the rest of us figure out what is wrong with the concept?

        • The main way anything will be returned to the lessees will be via the property itself. This is a huge project guys, it is very possible that said revenue might be useful to solve a lot of long term problems. In time it might install a couple giant wind machines, who knows.

          This is the key and it is all that really matters for those involved.

          The rules of what you can and can’t do and what percentages will remain for community improvements will be spelled out in a contract. A binding contract that can’t be amended with out 100% agreement by all involved with said contract.

          What if and what happens if are POINTLESS at this point. Right now we don’t have land, investors haven’t be selected, etc. People always poke holes in things before they even get started, I find it pointless.

          I watched America The Story Of US last night episode one. 7 in 10 of those that came to Jamestown died in the first year and yet people kept coming. They had a lot more adversity to face then we do with this. Every problem can be solved and NO the company won’t solve all your problems for you. We will do what we can but in the end your acre is your acre, how you power it, water it, etc. I don’t know yet, no one does.

          I do know this I am looking for the type of people that would have gotten on a boat in the 1600s.

    • Pecan trees give you 2 types of food and one type “Squirrels” you have to kill in order to get a good crop, I grew up with 3 gigantic 100 year old Pecan trees in my yard, I would kill around 40-70 squirrels a year just in those trees and we would get sometimes 1000 pounds off of those trees

    • Oh and if you want feral hogs around plant a few what we used to call hog nut pecans, they are bitter but hogs love them, they used to grow in the river bottom and we would clean up on hog meat when they dropped from the trees

    • @Chuck_3 and @Modern (totally wrong reply level) –

      As mentioned elsewhere, I was commenting on ‘the theory of..’ forming a stable/profitable community. it something I’ve been thinking about for quite a long time.

      I ‘solve problems’ for a living, and part of that is thru architecting processes.. to get to the best ‘beginning’ architecture.. I figure out how to ‘break’ the process or system. Where the failure points, or at least potential failure points exist.

      I then create a system that eliminates those points of failure.. or if they can’t be eliminated, one that includes ways to recover from said failure.

      Part of that process is to initially discover what the system needs to do (what problem it solves, or what benefit it delivers), and then communicate VERY CLEARLY to all of the stakeholders, the what/how of the problem solution.

      So.. that’s my goal with trying to ‘break’ the idea. To stimulate thought in all of the potential stakeholders, and to come up with a better initial architecture/system/process.

      No hatin’ involved.. at all.

      That being said.. I wasn’t asked to architect this system.. I’ve just been doing it so long that when I see a ‘problem’ to solve, my brain just starts going, and then my OCD kicks in until its solved.

      So.. to reduce confusion, I’ll STFU with the architecting and confine myself to questions/comments on @Modern’s concept.. AFTER I listen to the podcast.. 😉

      As part of the above.. no plan survives first contact. But its still good to start with a solid plan. To tie it into prep.. the architecture/process is the contents of your BOB.. you don’t know what’s going to happen.. but the process of thinking about what might happen, and what is most likely to happen.. informs your ‘plan’ (BOB contents).

    • @Modern – (also wrong reply level)

      A HUGE advantage of this starting in the TSP is that you’re talking about forming a FIRE ANT HILL.

      Just the idea is a big ‘holy shit!’

  26. As far as duck eggs vs. chicken eggs Jack, I used to feel as you do – that chicken eggs tasted better. That was until I tried eggs from Welsh Harlequins that were free ranging and being supplemented with soy free, gmo free organic feed. Apparently duck eggs will pick up “off” flavors depending upon the quality of their feed.

  27. RE: Livestock Guardian Dog, Great pyrenees are the most personable of the LGD. People do use them here in Southern AZ and We had a great one in Missouri. They handle the heat OK. However, the Anatolian Shepherd Which looks like a shorthairs Pyrenees is a better option in the hot desert. Unfortunately they are not quite as visiter friendly as the Great Pyrenees. The cross between the two breeds is really gaining popularity amoung people with small livestock (Goats and Sheep) that need protection, but where there is visiter traffic that can cause alot of anxiety for the purebred Analtolian. Whichever one you get make sure it was raised by its mother around the same type of animals that you want it to protect. Those that have just been raised around Goats and Sheep will chase chickens, etc. The mother seems to train the pups very well during their first 2 months of life. Once they are imprinted they are good to go on their own around the animals. DO NOT buy a city raised dog and turn it out with your livestock. This will end in disaster most of the time. This is no place for a rescue dog from the burbs that has never seen a chicken as they can take down a whole flock in a matter of minutes (I found that out when we adopted our Great Pyrenees in Missouri as that is why he was available for adoption he was fine around our goats). My wife and I took in two companion animal Great Pyreneese once and lost a sheep to them the first night. Big Mistake.

  28. It is very easy to switch a pump to backup using a relay with 110 volt coil connected to line power. When power fails the relay switches the hot leg of the pump from line power to your inverter which is already on but pulling only idle current.

    We were growing 600 tilipia per year in a 12.5 foot pond and 1000+ pounds of aquaponic greens each year. Fire ants killed the grow bed pond liner though. However the power requirements kept bothering me so I switched from fish to ducks & geese; they don’t call them water fowl for nothing. The water is then siphoned to the gardens which grow like mad from the fertility. I think the food value of food grown in the ground is superior to aquaponic food especially when the nutrients were free ranged by geese; add sea salt for trace minerals. So now I’m leaving aquaponics behind except for a few beds to grow heavy producing greens like water spinach. Goose and duck is better than fish, I think.

  29. In reference to comments about ownership versus leases (owner or customer)
    This whole issue can be resolved by asking better questions like what do you want out of the community.
    Seems to me you are creating an organism named PermaEthos. Parts of an organism do not survive on their own, they either become parasites or virus like. Each relationship withing an organism has a function. Just so happens each member performing its function likes it function. In-fact it thrives on the function or relationship. If you allow ownership, he still needs to fulfill some role to stimulate health or he becomes a parasite. As a parasite, neither party’s will be happy.

    On another note:
    Max Keiser accidentally touched on an observation I thought was truly insightful. We are using more energy to do things like fracking than we get out of the end product. How does that work? The magical fabricated energy of the debt dollar is printed and is used to manifest the real energy required to make the end product.
    ** This has profound implications!. We are using more real energy to make an energy product of less energy. This means we are ‘doing business just to do business’ and are burning resources faster than we are thinking..

    Keep up the great works!

    • All owners would also be lessees and have at least one lot and be part of the activity that way.

      Additionally ownership’s primary responsibility is to see to the financial health of the community. This may sound harsh but most people don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground about making good financial decisions. Businesses die every day from it. A guy needs to be let go but the good heart stops that decision, 6 months later 5 people have to go, no choice. The good heart that thought it helped one, harmed 4 that never had to be harmed.

      Most people won’t act, they are paralyzed by “what if”, they can’t just do shit and make a call. Most are led by emotion and do first what they most want to see happen, vs, what most needs to happen.

      When selecting co investors here, I am most concerned not just about how much money they have but how they manage and handle money. Do they understand money? Will they make a tough call when it is necessary? Will they personally sacrifice a return one month or one quarter for the good of the enterprise as a whole? Do they understand that said sacrifice always is actually in their own best interest long term? Do they keep their word? I want men and women that will die before breaking their word to another person. If that isn’t the case I don’t care if they have 5 million dollars to invest, I don’t want them.

      • Yes your points are clear. As a project manager I deal with this, in every new group I manage. My task is to take a bunch of people who are motivated “not to get along” and make them perform together. I call the “what if” language, “hand-grenades”. There are always individual who think they are helping by tossing hand-grenades into the discussion and then spend all there efforts avoiding them.

        If I understood the one gentleman’s comments who was pointing out the disparity of a lease holder weighing the difference of ownership, this was what I was speaking to. In the end, you are building a community that lives, breaths and wants good health like an any organism. There is much more value than money and a paycheck. I think those products could be brought out and emphasized. Perhaps a discussion for the new Ethose blog I just found.
        As you say, Life is Awesome! I think we are relearning how to live..

      • The ‘investors must be lessees’ thing is powerful.

        Basically this is ‘investors must be part of the community’ or ‘no absentee investors’.

        Which has a profound impact on investors choices.

        You aren’t going to turn YOUR community into a toxic waste dump, no matter how ‘profitable’ it is.

  30. I hadn’t been able to listen to the episode yet, but if someone invested some money could they sell their shares to someone else after a year or so ? Suppose you needed money for some reason all of a sudden ..

  31. Jack,
    Even more excited about being and investor (and lease) listening to this show. Sent you an email last night after listening to Monday’s show, please don’t let it get eaten by the spam monster…
    Being part of this feels like the founders’ experiment in the U.S.A.
    -Kevin in CT

  32. This sounds like an awesome idea. If I can at all afford it, I’m in. Being able to relocate to a freedom loving state with a bunch of freedom loving people would make relocating pleasurable. Can’t wait to hear more details. My hope is that I would be able to contribute enough to be accepted.

  33. Jack on your concern about financing of construction I do not think it is a problem. What I like about the lease option is I am not in debt per say. I also have the freedom to put a camping trailer on the property and then build as I want to.
    No code enforcement and I am golden. Rocket Stove Mass heater is not something that is easily put into a house with insurance. No financing on compost toilet houses. So a person building an appropriate house will be anything from earth sheltered homes, yurts, shipping container or camping trailers but in the end the freedom to build as one sees fit leaves things ultimately cheaper to start with.
    If as you mentioned the idea of maybe getting river access property then the lease is even better. The deal is even more affordable than a long term lot at an RV park because it becomes a vacation property. How many people can say they go to a RV lot and buy their food strait from the farm at sub wholesale?
    Remember things such as composting toilets can be built on site by other residents. If there is a 100 or so people living there and 50 percent go for composting toilets one family has a decent income stream and can build a business for off sight.
    A person with an earth block press could easily stay busy proving low cost building materials.

  34. So incredibly interested in the PermaEthos concept. Moving there right away wouldn’t be in the cards for me, but my plans included moving to Texas, or a place like it, in the next 3-5 years, because I was looking for a place where I could be a part of a real community. (I live in the Police State of NJ, unfortunately, proud home of 2 of the 10 cities rated as RUDEST in the WORLD.)

    Very interested in becoming a lessee (and would have loved to have been an investor, but made some really stupid mistakes in the last 6 years…wish I had found your show a lot sooner, Jack!) Looking forward to see how this idea develops further.

  35. There is a village near me that has was founded with a 99 year lease. The village was founded in 1900 and 99 years passed without issues for the residents of the community. Its as much apart of the area as any other neighborhood. I almost bought a house there and I recall the agent had no concerns with the fact the land was leased for a small amount. It is known for having residents that are somewhat artsy or eccentric. It really has little in common with what you have in mind other than the 99 year renewable lease. I believe it was founded by 19 century communists. Anyway, 99 year leases are in use and do appear to work. You can read a little about Arden here:,_Delaware and

  36. In the 1870″s an economist named Henry George developed a model not unlike what you are describing. The city of Fairhope Alabama was formed on this basis and it has been very successful. It is based on a 99 year lease arrangement with a right to a renewal tax. You might take a look at what they are doing, their legal structure, etc.

    • Arden was founded by a Georgist as well. I wonder how many of these villages are spread throughout the US that are similar to one another.

  37. This is a great idea, If my wife were in I’d be very interested in living in a place like this. In Michigan now and Texas is a bit away but maybe this or another closer may come in the future. Looking forward to hearing more.