Episode-1094- Massad Ayoob on Lethal Force Aftermath

Massad Ayoob

Massad Ayoob – Joins Us To Discuss Lethal Force Aftermath

Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement editor of AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s, and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals.

He is the author of more than a dozen books on firearms, self-defense, and related topics, including “In the Gravest Extreme,” widely considered to be the authoritative text on the topic of the use of lethal force.

The winner of the Outstanding American Handgunner of the Year Award in 1998, Mas has won several state and regional handgun shooting championships. Ayoob is one of the very few Five Gun Masters among the 10,000-member International Defensive Pistol Association, and was the first to earn that title.

He served 19 years as chair of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, and several years as a member of the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. In addition to teaching for those groups, he has also taught for the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors and the International Homicide Investigators seminars.

Massad has received judicial recognition as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases since 1979, and has been a fully sworn and empowered, part time police officer for decades. Ayoob founded the Lethal Force Institute in 1981 and served as its director until 2009, and now trains through Massad Ayoob Group.

Massad has appeared on CLE-TV delivering continuing legal education for attorneys, through the American Law Institute and American Bar Association, and has been retained to train attorneys to handle deadly force cases through the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob served for two years as co-vice chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He also appears in each episode of Personal Defense TV (Sportsman’s Channel).

Massad joins us today to discuss protecting yourself as an armed citizen from the threat we seldom consider, our own legal system.  How to make sure you are not in violation of the law, what constitutes justification for the use of deadly force and having a “prep kit” for after a deadly force incident.

Join Us Today As We Discuss…

  • What is the biggest thing most armed citizens fail to plan for
  • What happens in most cases immediately after a “justified shooting”
  • What plans should you have in place in case you ever have to use deadly force
  • How does a deadly force incident differ when it is in your home vs. away
  • What about the castle doctrine, how much protection does it really provide
  • Can a shooting legally justified in one state and not another with the same facts
  • What is the absolute worst thing you can do after a shooting
  • When the police arrive how should you greet them
  • Is there anything you should never say or do in from of first responders to an incident
  • Defense of life vs. defense of property
  • Can the appearance of a weapon influence the outcome of a trial
  • How can ammo selection be used against you

Additional Resources for Today’s Show

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39 Responses to Episode-1094- Massad Ayoob on Lethal Force Aftermath

  1. Wow, this has got to be the earliest I’ve seen you posting an episode.

  2. Looking forward to tuning in later today. Massad Ayoob has been a respected instructor in the law enforcement community and I’ve read quite a lot by and about him over the years. I look forward to your interview today. Terrific guest addition.

    Rich

  3. My two favorite podcasters on one show. This is great. Please makes Massad a regular guest.

  4. An hour earlier and I could have listened to it on my commute in to work instead my usual commute home :P

  5. I am really looking forward to hearing this interview.

    • LICountryboy

      Listened on my way in to work.
      It will most likely become one of the permanent podcasts on the Ipod for multiple listens.
      I still don’t know why Mass hasn’t been approached for audio books.
      Maybe I would listen to Bridges of Madison County or the Horse Whisperer.

  6. One of your best interviews ever, Jack mmk

  7. You got Massad Ayoob? Awesome!

    As a member of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, I can attest to the high quality of his training materials. I read his column in Backwoods Home every month, and always check out his interviews, wherever he is.

    New favorite guest! Hope he comes back!

    • Another ACLDN member here. You can also give memberships but the recipient will have to contact ACLDN to give them personal info (address etc).

      I’ll definitely second the idea that it would be great to get Mas back on.

  8. Wow! Is he a listener to the show?

  9. Jack, you are totally out of control in posting the podcast early. If you keep this up we’ll come to expect it everyday. In other words keep up the good work.

  10. For what it’s worth, “don’t talk to the police”:

    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

    Despite the above, I think that Ayoob’s point about saying just enough to establish that you are the good guy and to point out evidence and witnesses is sound.

    After that, ask for a lawyer and shut up.

    • You beat me to it! I was going to post these exact same videos. If anyone hasn’t seen these, watch them. They have great examples as to WHY you shouldn’t ever talk to the police. Great work Rich.

  11. I think that this is the organization that Ayoob was referring to in the podcast:

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

    • Yes! I’ve been a long-time member; never had to use their services, but feel it is more important for a gun owner than any other type of insurance you can have.

    • Yeap, that’s it.

  12. When I grow up I want to be Mas Ayoob.

  13. excellent interview….a keeper

  14. WOW! Perhaps the best interview ever for me. Timing is perfect as my husband and I are taking a serious self defense class.
    Thanks Jack

  15. Thank you so much for this interview. It is simply amazing. There is so much to learn from it. Out of the park Home Run!

  16. Fantastic episode, Jack. Thanks to both you and Massad for a great interview and content in this one.

  17. Just did a cursory look at the armed citizens network & think I prefer what USCCA offers.
    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/
    That said I’m a huge Massad Ayoob fan. Reading his book on Concealed Carry right now.

  18. Add him to the expert panel!

  19. I was wondering if there are any prepaid legal style of legal services a CC holder could have for situations mentioned in this show?

    • Not that I am aware of, but the link I shared earlier was what the person teaching our CCW class recommended. Its also recommended by Rob Pincus, a excellent trainer, and Mark Walters, host of the radio program, Armed American Radio, for concealed carry holders that comes on weekly. I have not looked at the program that Massad Ayoob suggested on air yet. Planning my daughters wedding this weekend, but Ill try to look it up soon.

      Heres a link to a few…

      NRA Self Defense Program
      http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm

      CHL Protection
      http://www.chlpp.com/index.html

      Armed Citizens Network mentioned by Massad Ayoob
      http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

      USCCA, the one I am leaning towards
      https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

    • See Rich and my endorsements above of the Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network that Mas mentioned. If you carry or otherwise bear arms for personal protection, you need this!

  20. Jack,

    I’m with you on carrying at home. I’ve had to unholster my gun only twice both times at home. A pack of coyotes and then a pack of wild dogs were zeroing in on my dog. It would have been bad if I wasn’t carrying.

  21. One of the best in a long time Jack. Loaded with super practical info for any modern survivalist.

    Thx.

  22. Alex in Austin

    I took Massad’s MAG20 class last year, it was some of the best firearms training I’ve ever had….and we never fired one shot. If you’re looking for firearms soft skills you should really consider taking a MAG20 or MAG40 class, I don’t imagine you’ll find a better source of information and experience from anyone else. The truth behind self defense shootings and justifiable homicide is frightening, don’t get caught unprepared.

  23. Matthew N Gooseneck

    Great interview Jack! I cannot believe he is a fan of the show! What an honor.

  24. New expert panel member? :-)

  25. Wow, wow, wow! I just got to listen to the interview and it was just oozing with great practical information. Fantastic interview!

    Even as a retired police officer and being familiar with many of the topics discussed, there were still things I learned and I came away with a lot of vital information that I can use.

    You can tell when someone knows his shit and Ayoob has this stuff down cold. Thanks for bringing him on the show.

    Rich

  26. Keith Thomas

    Thanks for this, Jack. One of your most useful interviews ever. Mr Ayoob’s authority and common sense radiated throughout. There was no pandering to our preconceptions and prejudices, just fact, expert opinion and good advice. 10/10!

  27. I disagree with Massad on one point. If you have shot and killed someone in self defense in a dangerous gang infested neighborhood of Chicago for example it would be prudent to leave the scene for your own safety. You could be in danger of retaliation by his fellow gang members etc. I think good advice would be to leave the scene and then report the incident from a safe location.

  28. “I’d rather be judged by 12, than carried by six.”
    -Ice Cube

  29. my question is and always has been what if you can’t stay and wait for the police. What if putting a guy down was just temporary and now you have to run or drive away to protect yourself further what then. Lets say you shoot a “gangster” you call the cops, but more “gangsters” are coming what then?

    here’s the second question what do you do when you call the cops on the cops. Heres a true story: I wake up in the middle of the night to the sounds of my door being pushed open and hear my wife pleading with someone. I grab the phone call the police grab my shotgun hit the speaker phone key and grip it under the forward pump grip all the time telling the dispatcher. “GET HERE NOW SOMEONES IN MY HOUSE. GET HERE NOW BEFORE I HAVE TO SHOOT SOMEONE I’M HEADING DOWNSTAIRS I CAN HEAR MY WIFE.” As I round the the corner to the stairs the barrel of my shotgun sights in on…. A US Marshal!!!???? WTF I yell as two US Marshals decked out in black tac gear draw on me and order me to get on the ground. I DO at this point the police dispatcher is ” Sir are you there sir answer me sir, officers are arriving in just a moment sir…” I’ m not sure if the two US Marshalls that had me pinned to the floor cuffing me were even aware that I was on the phone with STL’s finest. After being drug to the standing position and cussed up and down while being hauled down my own steps and thrown into a seated position on my own living room couch next to my handcuffed wife. “WTF were you doing pointing that thing at me” asked the US Marshal to which I returned ” WTF are you doing in my house asshole, be glad I looked before hand or you’d be toast. I’m not the asshole kickin in your door!” He didn’t respond. Another US MArshal came over and said that they had information that XXXXXXXX ( an recently paroled convict) had used this address. ” Not me man go get my ID from my wallet next to my bed” I replied.

    Finally here comes STL’s Finest guns drawn threw the open front door. Right into a living room full of US Marshels and myself and my wife hand cuffed on our own couch. The cops looked really confused.

    When an US Marshal came back down with my wallet he must of picked up my cell phone off the floor too.” you called the cops on us…” he said with a little smirk. ” Damn Right!! All I knew was that some asshole was in my house and my wife was downstairs.

    At that point the US marshal who appeared to be in charge went outside with STL’s finest. The rest where opening every door and checking every closet and room for this convict. While one watched us. I was PISSED and kept insulting the US marshal who had been given the task to watch us. ” YOU KICK IN MY DOOR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND WONDER WHY YOU GOT A FACEFUL OF SHOTGUN YOU STUPID BASTARD!” I remember yelling at him.

    A few minutes later the US Marshel came back in with one STL’s finest and uncuffed me and my wife. “Sorry about this” he said, “we were acting on the information we had…”

    ” Make sure your shit’s right next time… What if I would have shot your guy what then …” I interputed him.

    “Yeah would have been a problem then” he replied.

    After the US Marshals had left one of the STL’s responding officers pulled me aside and told me “…that if I had not called the police prior grabbing my shotgun I would have been arrested and charged with assult on an officer.”

    I guess I’m trying to say that if you can at all call the police first do so it might be the US Marshals Kicking in your door in the middle of the night and if you try to defend yourself without calling the police you might could end up being arrested for assualt on an officer.

  30. Excellent interview, thanks for having such a high quality guest on the show.

  31. Great podcast Jack. This is just the perfect show to get proactive and take some action in prepping my wife and I in the event a shooting has to take place. I will go back and take extensive notes from the program to share with my associates, so as to arm them with much need knowledge. “Keep on Keeping on”.