Episode-736- Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy on Collapse Medicine

Today on The Survival Podcast we are joined by Doctor Bones and Nurse Amy to discuss collapse medicine, everything from emergency dental needs, to creative ways to get antibiotics and natural healing.

Dr. Bones was a practicing Board-Certified Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology as well as a Fellow of the American College of Surgeons for many years.

Recently retired, Dr. Bones is drawing from his experience with the many hurricanes that plague his part of the country to put together a medical strategy for those who find themselves in a collapse situation.

Nurse Amy is a Certified Nurse Midwife and an Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner for many years.  Also recently retired, Nurse Amy has devoted herself to urban homesteading with an emphasis on growing food and the re-learning of skills no longer commonly seen in a modern stetting.

Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy have a number of common interests that are in sync with the TSP Audience:   gardening, aquaculture, medical, world and U.S. history, and the collection of  medical and history books from The 19th century and earlier.  They maintain an extensive library on many subjects.  Both Nurse Amy and Dr. Bones are master gardeners for the state of Florida.  Nurse Amy has succeeded in having her property declared an official Butterfly  Sanctuary and a Certified Wildlife Habitat by the National Wildlife Federation.

Dr. Bones has taught at local medical and nursing schools and is a member of MENSA.  He has been published in popular preparedness web sites and will have an article in a popular survival magazine later this year.

 Additional Resources for Today’s Show

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70 Responses to Episode-736- Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy on Collapse Medicine

  1. Jack, this episode was just way too cool! I have so many friends in the medical profession (I’m a nursing assistant). I feel like I can share this episode with them with no problem. Thanks for such an awesome and manageable look at an area of prepping that maybe a lot of us see as too insurmountable to even begin to tackle.

  2. I don’t see the link to the PDF doc for medicine info. Were you able to locate the resource?

    • Modern Survival

      @NWBowhunter, Crap! I forgot to upload it and it is only on my office PC, it will have to wait till next week unless another listener out there has a copy.

      • I was VERY excited to see that you reviewed this. I’ve been looking for it online for months. There are actually joint FDA/DoD web portals for the SLEP that request that information be kept confidential. Your average joe cannot get access. The best I’ve found are articles about pharmicutical longevity written by people who have reviewed SLEP studies, and of course the Tamaflu information which was released. I’ll bet the sellers of fish antibiotics are going to be scratching their head today as they start pulling bottles off their shelves to fill orders placed the last couple days.

  3. Let’s just hope that if you have an infected tooth that somebody has lidocaine laying around.

    • You can use clove oil for an infected tooth, used it myself and worked great.
      They sell first aid tooth kits at pharmacies (I have one in my BOB) that contain the clove oil.

  4. steve murphy

    i’m gonna have to listen again with my notebook handy. way too much info to absorb

  5. Wow, Awesome Interview! Great Info! Not a good episode to listen to at work, I was glued to my notebook and ear phones! Keep up the great work! I cant wait for my wife to hear it, she is a nurse…

  6. The best interview to date. Covering two very important topics emergency medical and gardening.

    • Hi Kevin! Thanks for the comment! I love gardening and have been studying really hard to learn as much as possible. Getting a mindset for collapse medicine when no medical system exists takes some time to absorb. We will be happy to answer any questions at drbonespodcast@aol.com. Thanks, Nurse Amy

  7. RE: Expiration dates for medications:
    “The following is a general notice from SLEP manager:
    As a reminder, all testing and extension data provided to the Shelf Life Extension Program (SLEP) by the Food and Drug Administration is considered For Official Use Only and cannot be shared with anyone outside the user’s organization. SLEP Administrators have fielded several calls recently from individuals wanting to share this information with local, civilian counterparts. That is not permissible, as it is not only a violation of the terms agreed to by the FDA but also a violation of the Memorandum of Agreement each participant organization signs prior to entering the SLEP program. SLEP website accounts of violators will immediately be terminated and inventories may be eliminated from the program, pending notification of the parent organization. Additionally, non-SLEP organizations that use SLEP information are in violation of Federal law that governs misbranded pharmaceuticals” – U.S. Army Medical Department
    http://www.usamma.army.mil/dod_slep.cfm

    Other:
    http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics-WSJ.htm
    http://www.dsls.usra.edu/grandrounds/20091027/khan.pdf

    “The DoD Shelf Life Extension System (SLES) consists of two main components. The first piece is the Materiel Quality Storage Standards as prescribed by AR 702-18. These standards provide the inspection, testing, and storage requirements for extendible (Type II) shelf life materiel. The second piece is the Quality Status Listing (QSL) which contains the results of previously accomplished extension testing.”

    • WOW… just, wow!
      This is rediculous. Somebody should file a request for this information in leiu of the freedom of information act, for sure. I have no idea how to even begin but people have a right to know! Who is it going to harm? Oh, that’s right… the pharmaceutical companies!!

  8. This was an awesome show. I listened to it while I was driving around (I’m a local truck driver). It was so hard to pause it long enough to get my bills. Keep up the good work.

    • Hi Mike! Don’t get into an accident..lol. Thanks for the nice comments, we really appreciate it. Sometimes it feels like we are talking to ourselves in our library. Nice to know someone out there is listening!! Thanks again, Nurse Amy

  9. Can’t find the government study on medicial expiration dates. Please advise. Thanks!

    • Modern Survival

      @Janet see the comment above by @Mug, apparently me sharing it would be illegal. I find this unacceptable but I also plan on not making myself an easy target either. So I won’t be sharing it, I’m sorry this isn’t something risk being shut down or put in jail over. I think all of us should flood them with freedom of information requests on it, it was paid for with PUBLIC monies, clearly the pharmaceutical companies don’t want us to know the truth.

      • Sorry for lawyering the issue, but it’s For Official Use Only meaning it isn’t classified or anything. The message just states that it’s a
        “violation of the Memorandum of Agreement each participant organization signs prior to entering the SLEP program.” You’re not part of the MoA, and from the previously posted message it sounds like all they’d do anyways is cancel your account — which you don’t have in the first place.

        “Additionally, non-SLEP organizations that use SLEP information are in violation of Federal law that governs misbranded pharmaceuticals”

        That part isn’t about disseminating the info, it’s about what you do with the info – ie taking misbranded pharmaceuticals, which probably means past the expiration date on the label.

        Anyways, still understandable if you don’t want to share it. Maybe it’s on that one wiky page.

    • Obviously, just because some web page says something is illegal doesn’t make it true. We do need to get a good investigative journalist, lawyer and perhaps a well known whistle blower website to release the data (that we paid for) so all of us can benefit from it.

      Perhaps someone (and by that I mean me) should contact the journalist from the WSJ article that I linked to above to see if they are willing to help get us the data.

    • Actually Jack, all that says is that if you USE the information you are in violation of the law for using expired drugs. Unless there is some sort of secrecy statement on the document that says otherwise your release of it is probably pretty safe.

  10. Awesome show loaded w/ practical, implemental advice. Two questions:

    1- Can a stun gun be used as an impromptu defibrillator when someone is having a heart attack? I’ve asked several doctors & they couldn’t give me a yes or no answer.

    2- Is a medical bag considered an FSA (flexible spending account) eligible item? Any one have experience buying a decent kit and then getting reimbursed by their insurance through their FSA?

    Look forward to the report, Jack. Now I’m off to stock up on meds for my aquarium-bound friends. ;)

  11. What was the pocket reference guide that Nurse Amy mentioned?

    • Yes but the only “documents” that the wiki page links to are an info document (a short synopsis of the study) and the “official” SLEP program login page (as mentioned by Dr Bones and Nurse Amy).

      Unfortunately the wiki page does not link to the full study.

    • I was unable to access the file. As noted in the podcast, those files are now protected behind a members-only login page.

  12. Right click and save as. Still works as of now.

    • That’s a no-go. Are you logging in to Wikipedia or something? I’d rather not have to do that if that’s the case.

    • That document is only a short synopsis and what I assume Jack has (just based on the ones he chose to read during the show) SLEP seems to be an interactive database and not a document.

  13. Can you postthe Fema info in the members section of your website.

    • Modern Survival

      @Bite, I don’t have any idea what you mean by “the FEMA info”, if you mean the shelf life study it

      1. Has nothing to do with FEMA

      2. No, I am not making myself any bigger of a target than I already am, those that think their is no risk of course are taking no risk. So you get your hands on it and you use a domain other than mine to distribute it. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just not taking the risk for a two page document when we have already told you what it says anyway.

  14. @Adam:
    “What was the pocket reference guide that Nurse Amy mentioned?”

    Physician’s Desk Reference.
    Some pdfs online at trnt.

  15. Regarding Shelf Life, this may be of some interest.
    It is clearly a PUBLIC document, therefore, no issues.
    Click the link (or paste into browser). If/when a Certificate Acceptance window pops up, just accept it.
    About half through the 99pg doc (after all the terms) is where it begins.

    https://www.shelflife.hq.dla.mil/Policy_4140_27/DoD_4140_27-M-PUBLIC.doc

    • Nice document, although this document is only telling you how to interpret codes assigned to medicines, nothing about the meds themselves.

  16. Brian Cihak
    {REDACTED ADDRESS}

    September 3, 2011

    Lewis Oleinick
    Chief Privacy and FOIA Officer
    Stop 2533
    8725 John J. Kingman Road
    Fort Belvoir, VA 22060-6221

    FOIA REQUEST
    Fee waiver requested

    Dear FOIA Officer:

    Pursuant to the federal Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552, I request access to and copies of any and all results of the Shelf Life Extension Program regarding prescription and non-prescription drugs and their extended expiration/usefulness dates. The existence of this data is hinted in the following document DoD 4140.27-M as well as a document titled EXTENDING THE SHELF LIFE OF CRITICAL CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL, NUCLEAR AND RADIOLOGICAL (CBRN) MEDICAL MATERIEL USING THE FDA/DOD SHELF LIFE EXTENSION PROGRAM.
    This data is available at the following website https://www.shelflife.hq.dla.mil/ but is under password control.

    I would like to receive the information in electronic format.

    Please waive any applicable fees. Release of the information is in the public interest because it will contribute significantly to public understanding of government operations and activities. This information is in the public interest for those who may need to know the efficacy of pharmaceuticals in cases of public emergency and natural disaster as well as times where organized professional medical care may not be readily available and these drugs could be used to save a life.

    If my request is denied in whole or part, I ask that you justify all deletions by reference to specific exemptions of the act. I will also expect you to release all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material. I, of course, reserve the right to appeal your decision to withhold any information or to deny a waiver of fees.

    As I am making this request as a journalist and this information is of timely value, I would appreciate your communicating with me by telephone, rather than by mail, if you have questions regarding this request.

    I look forward to your reply within 20 business days, as the statute requires.

    Thank you for your assistance.

    Sincerely,

    Brian {REDACTED}

    • Ok I got a response, said that “sorry this is the wrong agency, you want the FDA”
      They did give me contact information so Letter #2 is on the way.

      Brian Cihak

      October 5, 2011
       
      FDA
      Parklawn Bldg
      Rm 6B-05
      5600 Fishers Ln
      Rockville, MD 20857
       
           FOIA REQUEST
                Fee waiver requested
       
      Dear FOIA Officer:
       
      Pursuant to the federal Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552, I request access to and copies of any and all results of the Shelf Life Extension Program regarding prescription and non-prescription drugs and their extended expiration/usefulness dates. The existence of this data is hinted in the following document DoD 4140.27-M as well as a document titled EXTENDING THE SHELF LIFE OF CRITICAL CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL, NUCLEAR AND RADIOLOGICAL (CBRN) MEDICAL MATERIEL USING THE FDA/DOD SHELF LIFE EXTENSION PROGRAM. 
      The first piece is the Materiel Quality Storage Standards as prescribed by AR 702-18. These standards provide the inspection, testing, and storage requirements for extendible (Type II) shelf life materiel. The second piece is the Quality Status Listing (QSL) which contains the results of previously accomplished extension testing.

      This data is available at the following website https://www.shelflife.hq.dla.mil/ but is under password control.
       
      I would like to receive the information in electronic format.
       
      Please waive any applicable fees. Release of the information is in the public interest because it will contribute significantly to public understanding of government operations and activities. This information is in the public interest for those who may need to know the efficacy of pharmaceuticals in cases of public emergency and natural disaster as well as times where organized professional medical care may not be readily available and these drugs could be used to save a life.
       
      If my request is denied in whole or part, I ask that you justify all deletions by reference to specific exemptions of the act. I will also expect you to release all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material. I, of course, reserve the right to appeal your decision to withhold any information or to deny a waiver of fees.
       
      As I am making this request as a journalist and this information is of timely value, I would appreciate your communicating with me by telephone, rather than by mail, if you have questions regarding this request.
       
      I look forward to your reply within 20 business days, as the statute requires.
       
      Thank you for your assistance.
       
      Sincerely,
       
       
      Brian Cihak

  17. For anyone else considering an FOIA request, please add the following to it with the QSL data being the most important:
    “The first piece is the Materiel Quality Storage Standards as prescribed by AR 702-18. These standards provide the inspection, testing, and storage requirements for extendible (Type II) shelf life materiel. The second piece is the Quality Status Listing (QSL) which contains the results of previously accomplished extension testing”

  18. Excellent interview Jack , one of the best ones yet. Lots of great info.

    • Hi Bill! Thanks so much for the nice comment! The interview went so fast and there is so much information we want to talk about. I hope Jack will invite us on again sometime! Let us know if you have any questions. Thanks! Nurse Amy

  19. Modern Survival

    All I can say to those who are wanting the Self Life Extension report is I am not going to distribute it and wanting me to take the risk by some of you is kind of bullshit. Sure there is nothing to worry about, as your ass isn’t on the line.

    What I can do though is tell you how you could find it,

    All I can say is cut and paste the following into google and hit search,

    “To assure preparedness for war or other contingencies” filetype:pdf

    I figure if you can find something with google that is your business.

    • If you use
      “To assure preparedness for war or other contingencies” filetype:doc
      you get 2 other articles that have some dates in them. I have filed an FOIA request for all documents pertaining to these dates and will share whatever information is gleaned from them when I get them. That being said I’m not holding my breath.

      • Modern Survival

        @Brian, try cutting and pasting dude you used filetype:doc not what I told you to which was filetype:pdf

        • Chill…..I think maybe Brian was mentioning IN ADDITION to your instructions for the pdf, that if a person puts “doc” they can find 2 OTHER articles. Also that he kindly put in an FOIA request so that others can more easily find this info that should be public.

          By the way Jack, doing exactly as you instructed, only yields on link, to a SLEP info paper of Oct 2007. It’s only 6 pages long. Assume this isn’t the correct one.
          Thanks anyway. Eventually we’ll get a copy.

    • I completely understand where you’re coming from and I appreciate that hint. It led me to find another possible lead. One could cut and paste this into Google…

      “inurl:slep.dmsbfda.army.mil/slep/”

    • Nice! Thanks!!!

    • Dissapointing, but understandable. Why didn’t that crackpot Assange collect and dissiminate THIS information?

    • I copied and pasted to google; I saw a 6 page .pdf. (Was the only listed document.) But I’ve gotta believe that there is a more extensive listing that charts out there. I’ve seen an example table for tamaflu. I’m just disappointed that this publicly funded study isn’t more readily available. I do appriciate that you offered what guidance you can.

  20. 122 drugs evaluated; one would hope commonly used drugs. It isn’t the whole shebang, but if you have access to PubMed (local university might also have an account) you can look up the following.
    PMID:16721796

    Stability profiles of drug products extended beyond labeled expiration dates.
    Lyon RC, Taylor JS, Porter DA, Prasanna HR, Hussain AS.
    SourceDivision of Product Quality Research, Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, Food and Drug Administration, HFD-941, White Oak, Life Sciences Building 64, 10903 New Hampshire Avenue, Silver Spring, Maryland 20993-0002, USA. robbe.lyon@fda.hhs.gov

    Abstract
    The American Medical Association has questioned whether expiration dating markedly underestimates the actual shelf life of drug products. Results from the shelf life extension program (SLEP) have been evaluated to provide extensive data to address this issue. The SLEP has been administered by the Food and Drug Administration for the United States Department of Defense (DOD) for 20 years. This program probably contains the most extensive source of pharmaceutical stability data extant. This report summarizes extended stability profiles for 122 different drug products (3,005 different lots). The drug products were categorized into five groups based on incidence of initial extension failures and termination failures (extended lot eventually failed upon re-testing). Based on testing and stability assessment, 88% of the lots were extended at least 1 year beyond their original expiration date for an average extension of 66 months, but the additional stability period was highly variable. The SLEP data supports the assertion that many drug products, if properly stored, can be extended past the expiration date. Due to the lot-to-lot variability, the stability and quality of extended drug products can only be assured by periodic testing and systematic evaluation of each lot.

    PMID:16721796[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    • FYI, I just obtained a copy of this article. It has tables of “Durg Product” “Dosage form” “Lots Tested/Dormant/Active” and provides Extension Times (months) in both Mean (Not Average, but similar) and Range. The drugs tested were a combination of Tablets, syringe-needle, injection-solution (bottle, syringe needed to use), powder, emulsion, apsules, etc.; most of the testing was done on injection solution drugs. So, if you’re looking to find results for one particular drug using a specific delivery method, you *might* be out of luck. But, if you’re looking for more general knowledge regarding SLEP and the kinds of results obtained, this is a good resource.

  21. Great interview!!! Where can I find the article he wrote foe the book? I have looked and can’t find it. Keep up the great work.

    • Hi Joe! Thanks for asking about the chapter Dr Bones has written for Back To Basics by James Talmage Stevens. It will be in the future edition #13, I’m not sure of the exact publishing date, however we will ASK James and find out for you! Dr Bones is writing everyday for the collapse medicine book! There is so much information to cover. We will also be in Denver and Salt Lake City presenting on collapse medicine. We will be at booth #100 in Denver, please stop by if anyone is attending! If you or anyone else has any questions for us feel free to email us at drbonespodcast@aol.com. Thanks so much, Nurse Amy

  22. My wife and I listened to this episode while driving to Quebec for vacation. We went to a place that specialised in rabbit and the food and service were absolutely superb! I had a rabbit cassoulet and rabbit rillettes. The restaurant also offered rabbit liver and kidney salad splashed with Xeres sherry vinegar. I wished I had room (and money) for that but the preparation and taste of the cassoulet was amazing- it was both rustic and simple, yet sophisticated and refined. It was filling and satisfying. Quality ingredients and quality technique. The rillettes were a most delicious concoction or, rather decoction of rabbit meat, bones, vegetables and herbs. Ensconced in fat, it is an essential food preservation technique for the gourmand. I just purchased the excellent, excellent Food Production Systems DVD and am thinking of raising rabbits. I am having a hard time getting over the family pet, however, that I had to put down eight years ago due to a terrible infection; it broke my heart.

    Are Tribbles edible? They are self-fertile and very prolific. However, Joel Salatin is not a fan of what he referred to as “the Star Trek mentality” in food!

  23. I guess if anyone gets the whole report post a link.

  24. Could you post that shelf life report when you get a chance?

    Thanks!

    • Switch, he already said no in a comment earlier on in this page.
      But someone will eventually come up with the correct info to search for. Also another commenter here put in a FOIA request. So just a tad more patience.

      “All I can say to those who are wanting the Self Life Extension report is I am not going to distribute it and wanting me to take the risk by some of you is kind of bullshit. Sure there is nothing to worry about, as your ass isn’t on the line.”

      • Modern Survival

        @Gunter thanks and ONCE AGAIN, if you READ THE ABOVE COMMENTS I gave you the exact thing to do to find it on your own. If I keep getting more requests by people that don’t read the above I am going to have to close the comments on this episode.

        • Sorry, just read the “Crap! I forgot to upload it” comment from you. Instead of shutting down the comments maybe put a note in the show notes section saying that you can’t for….

  25. Michael Matthews

    Outstanding show. New to the prepper podcast, but so glad I found it. Have learned some new things in a very short time. Thank you.

  26. Yea, great show! I found this:
    http://www.upmc-biosecurity.org/website/resources/publications/2009/2009-03-27-max_st_local_med_cntr.html#shelf-life
    the PDF attached has at least some of the info (specifically mentioning 13 year shelf life for ciprofloxacin and 7 for doxycycline) and no disclaimer on the page that I saw, and no requirement for a password to get it. Haven’t read though the whole thing yet as I’m still digesting the episode, and all my notes!

    Thanks as ever.

  27. I can only find antibiotics in powder form at the petstore. Should I get these or search online for the recommended antibiotics? Would the shelf life be adversely affected? Even so, there are four or five powdered antibiotics to choose from- should I focus or buy an assortment?
    Thanks!

    • Agorculture Hi! Ok, I would try to find the pill versions of these medications.
      Here is the article that Dr Bones wrote about exp dates and fish antibiotics. It includes a list of some good ones to have:
      http://doctorbonesandamyshow.blogspot.com/
      Look at popular posts for :Making Penicillin at Home, it is from May 9th.
      At the bottom of that post are a list of antibiotics and a link to the exp date article called: A Doctor’s Thoughts on Antibiotics, Expiration Dates, and TEOTWAWKI(written BY Dr Bones) I hope this helps! Nurse Amy

      • Hi Nurse Amy,
        Thank you so much for answering my questions and for the article! I really appreciate it and this information is immensely helpful! I look forward to learning from your awesome podcasts, posts and videos. Thank you and Dr. Bones for putting this out!
        BTW, after reading the making Penicillin article, it occured to me that counterfeit/tampered medicine will become a much bigger problem in TEOTWAWKI than it is now. We will have to be aware of warning signs and, likewise, be able to prove that our medicines are good for barter.
        Thanks!!!

  28. Thanks, Jack! I’m currently listening to this podcast and was so excited I had to post a thank you! Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy are A-W-E-S-O-M-E!!! I’m currently going to school to get my Associates in Nursing and am already an EMT and this was the reason WHY! Of course, I started before I heard but, I the reason is still the same. I want to help people get around Government Regulations when it comes to health. We don’t NEED 90% of what’s shoved on us and the other 10% is the serious stuff that they tend to ignore. Off mysoapbox… Thanks again, Jack!

    • Vin, Thanks so much for the really nice comment! Good luck in your medical training. I know it’s hard work, but soooo worth the effort!! You will be a great “medic” if a collapse ever happens and people will turn to you for help. So keep learning everyday, you can never know it all! Thanks again, Nurse Amy